date:20060410

The extra water might not make any difference, as Joe Street and I 
were saying a month or so back. Some water is acceptable, but just 
how much is not easy to say, so it's safer to get rid of any and all 
water if you can. But your 93% sulphuric is worth a try. Start with 
low-FFA oil, preferably test batches with virgin oil.

Best

Keith


>Try it, then you can tell us. Lol.
>But seriously though, I would guess that the extra 2% is most likely either
>water or a gelling agent to make it thicker and stickier. Water will give
>you some extra soap in your wash, not sure what a gelling agent might do. I
>would suggest investing your two dollars in a bottle of this stuff and going
>back to the one litre test batch stage to see how it works.
>Regards,
>Bob
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:40 PM
>Subject: [Biofuel] sulphuric acids
>
>
> > in the foolproof method, as defined on the JTF web site, it is stated
> > to use 95% sulphuric acid. This is hard to get these days for an
> > individual and somewhat costly. however there is an old fashioned drain
> > cleaner whose MSDS reports is 93% sulphuric acid. oddly enough anybody
> > can buy gallons with no problem. Does anybody know if this slightly
> > less percentage will work?
> >  r. Allison


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Re: [Biofuel] storing biodiesel in veggie oil 55g drums

Hi James

> I recently scored 14 (!!!) 55g drums of new canola oil for free.

Good score! :-)

The pint/quart of canola left would add 0.23-0.46% triglycerides to 
55 gallons of biodiesel. Even if your processing is good that's just 
enough to bump you out of the standards requirements.

Bob and Todd are right, shrug it off and it won't wreck your motor. 
Since it's new canola you could regard it as a lubricity enhancer, 
not that biodiesel exactly needs a lubricity enhancer, but hey. But 
if you're finickety about the details (a Good Thing unless you get 
too anal about it and lose the picture) you can get most of it out 
without too much trouble with biodiesel, as Todd says.

So they're closed-top drums, usually two bungs, one on each side, one 
bigger, they both fit standard plumbing fittings.

We use oil drums to store biodiesel and WVO and stuff. There's a 
choice. Simplest is to stand them on the ground and use a pump to get 
the stuff out (getting it in in the first place is another matter). 
We've got a great pump for this, a hand pump that screws into the 
bigger bung and can be raised or lowered so the inlet is any distance 
you want above the bottom. It has a cast iron pump casing, a good 
crank, and really good pull, it'll handle the rough stuff in WVO, and 
it cost about US$45 equiv. Worth paying for if you're a biodieseler 
or SVOer. We use it for collecting WVO when there's an oil drum 
involved, but we don't use it with the storage tanks. Pumping quickly 
gets old when you have to do it too often no matter how you do it, 
and making and using biodiesel should have a low chore-level, IMHO. 
Gravity is better.

Open-top drums with cinch-clamped lids are much rarer than closed-top 
drums with bungs, or they are here anyway. We do have some lids 
though and I made a couple out of glass-fibre, not difficult. Even if 
you could find a lid, you might find that a cinch-clamp lid from an 
open-top drum isn't the same size as your closed-top drums. Sigh. But 
you could mould a glass-fibre lid on the bottom of an upended drum. 
Or you could use a circular wooden board with plastic glued to the 
underside, held onto the drum by cinch-clamps, which is a good option 
for a processor but less convenient for a storage tank than a 
properly shaped lid.

Cut the bottom of the drum out, the top with the two bungs will now 
be the bottom. Screw a standard 3/4" gate valve or ball valve into 
the smaller bung.

You can weld a stand together from 1.5" steel angle, which you can 
often find in junkyards free for the taking. If you don't have a 
welder, bolt a stand together out of timber. Make a solid job of it, 
it has to be strong, a full oil drum will weigh 175 kg, 385 lb. Todd 
Swearingen advises making provision for spills, surely good advice.

The stand looks like a four-sided cage. The cross-struts are outside 
the uprights (legs). The bottom of the drum rests evenly on the top 
of the stand with the uprights extending a couple of inches up the 
side of the drum to secure it. You can build the stand upside down on 
top of an upended drum, or at least fit it that way. The stand must 
be high enough with enough space between the legs so you can get a 
20-litre bucket or a carboy in under the valve. Use lower 
cross-struts on the sides and the back, not in the front. Don't make 
the stand too high, that will make it more difficult to fill it.

Put a small standpipe inside the drum in the small bung outlet, it 
only needs to be a couple of inches or so high.

Maybe you'll want to have some of the drums on stands and the rest on 
the ground.

HTH.

Best

Keith

>james demer wrote:
> > I recently scored 14 (!!!) 55g drums of new canola oil for free. I am
> > processing it into biodiesel and I'm running out of storage. Can I put
> > biodiesel back into a 55g drum that housed new canola oil? I emptied
> > the drums pretty well but there is still probably a pint to a quart of
> > oil in the bottom of the drum.
> > I'm just concerned that the oil will contaminate the bio-d.
> > What do you smart people think?
> >
> > Thanks, James

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Re: [Biofuel] [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?

>How's about all dropping shares/stocks in oil and related products/goods,

What if you'd have to buy them first but you haven't got any money?

>just dumping them and investing in gold?

:-) That's worse than Euros, revolutionary talk, the Empire won't 
like it. You don't happen to have any WMDs stashed about the place do 
you? I'd run into the jungle and hide if I were you or they'll nuke 
you anyway. But then you're not squatting on an oilwell, come to 
think of it, you'll be okay, like Kim Jong Il.

>1976 -1977 Gettie oil was in Nabalek/Ranger uranium mining/surveying in
>Australia, now Iran has the stuff, all in the same basket them bods. Get rid
>of the oil and shares go into gold as a commodity and see who worries? Sloan
>is gone but the wind left is not sweet. Edzell destroyed by his father, if
>this be the case why not the globe?

You lost me there.

>It will probably take agitation from all or most countries

Not the countries, the people. Sod the countries.

>plus some to veer
>the ship we all sail in only a few degrees towards a more appropriate
>course. To get on course in one heave on the helm seems all but an
>impossible dream.

True. But it's the impossible dreams that drag the great human 
achievements in their wake. "Goals are dreams with deadlines" (or 
something like that).

>How many will die in Iran to get the Gett stuff back? The profits on the
>sales with minimal taxes and the men and women that will pay with lives and
>taxes to get those profits back if the duo has their way. Perhaps the duo
>can be used to fuel a reactor??

:-) Maybe, quite poetic symmetry. Too toxic for composting, I 
definitely wouldn't eat the veggies. Gasification? Fischer-Tropsch? 
You'll want something that'll handle prions and worse. But I think in 
this case you can only hope for two of the 3Rs: Reduce most 
definitely and Recycle if possible but Reuse is totally out. LOL!

Rings a bell... from previous:

>>There is no doubt at this point that global warming is occurring 
>>even among some republicans.
>
>There's no doubt even among some republicans or it's occurring even 
>among some republicans? The first, cause to rejoice (though that's 
>been the case for awhile I think), if the second, depending who they 
>are, if they're becoming prone to spontaneous combustion should we 
>shed tears or consider them as an alternative energy source?

:-) A limited resource.

Best

Keith



>Doug
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:06 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?
>
>
> > Hi Keith,
> >I hope you are right about Americans. Are enough of them agitating
> > Congress
> > so that some action will be taken that will rid us of the Dumb-Duo? Geez,
> > it'd
> > be so nice. (Maybe you see things more clearly from Tokyo.) Or at least
> > take back the war making powers they so generously gave to our gonzo
> > War President.
> > I was really disheartened when I got a reply from Sen. Obama which
> > said there was a better way than impeachment. I had a lot of hope in this
> > guy
> > and got such a lame reply. Sen. Durbin didn't reply.
> >I never was involved in politics until we got Bushed again. Watching
>this
> > fool before and after 9/11 drove me to join a progressive group of
> > Democrats in St Louis. It does seem that his ineptness and hypocrisy
> > really woke up a lot of people here.
> >Thanks for those links. I read the one where distrust in public
> > institutions
> > is falling. Hopefully this'll make governments more sensitive to their
> > people.
> > As it stands it seems regular working people are getting screwed while big
> > corporations
> > are having wet dreams, having every wish fulfilled by the government. This
> > extends all the way down to city governments as well.
> > Many thanks to you! Peace and justice, D. Mindock  P.S. I will look at
>those
> > two other links on the
> > Art of War and Tao Te Ching. They look useful, indeed!
> >
> > > >Keith,
> > >>
> > >>   Most (or enough) Americans are asleep or indifferent.
> > >
> > > Don't believe it! We were discussing it here about a week ago.
> > >
> > >>If we had a real
> > >>mainstream media here, that
> > >>didn't screen out news unfavorable to the administration, especially the
> > >>bogus wars, things would never deteriorated to the low
> > >>level we have now.
> > >
> > > But they did, and there were glaring signs long ago that you had to
> > > take urgent action to counter corporate ownership concentration of
> > > your media. Okay, it's understandable that such a high-intensity
> > > ongoing barrage of engineered opinion engineering would send "enough"
> > > of you to asleep "enough" of the time for everything to fall to
> > > pieces about your ears and you didn't even notice. Maybe that's your
> > > affair, or even your prerogative, but the problem is all the stuff
> > > Washington and Wall Street export to the rest of us, u

Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

>Well, I really appreciate all the responses to my post. However, I'm 
>still at a loss as to what I can do, given only one acre of land and 
>the need for a productive crop rotation from the same piece of land 
>every year.
>
>So far, I saw one post that questioned whether you need crop 
>rotation at all (i.e. Are you really taking anything important out 
>of the soil?)

Doesn't work like that, though it might appear to, apart from all the 
unforeseen side-effects... If you even recognise them as 
side-effects. You just end up trying to fight nature. You might even 
think you're winning.

> and another from Keith that requires me to do a little work (Keith, 
>you're in competition with my Amazon wish list - both providing more 
>material than I have time to read lately!). I think the answer lies 
>in the abundance of information given by Keith and I just have to 
>make the time to go through it.

Yes.

But you'll love it!

Regards

Keith


>Thanks again!!
>
>Mike
>
>
>Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>ok, take ye auld oversimlification and use the 800 Gal/acre and then
>consider taking 5 acres to farm by rotation. one for pasture, one for fuel
>and the other three for restructuring (nitrogen, compost, hay, etc.) you
>could have the four year rotation, and never have a dry year as far as fuel
>is concerned. if you were really, really, ambitious you could plant red
>clover as hay stock and use the blossoms for a small sugar supply for
>ethanol as well. there are just too many ways to go about this, my
>grandfather is a jerk but he knows his farming, and i pay more attention
>than most people think.
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:52 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability
>
>
> > >Michael Redler wrote:
> >> > Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
> >> >
> >> > The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was
> >> > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production and
> >> > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research
> >> > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what
> >> > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops
> >> > in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never
> >> > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of
> >> > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving
> >> > local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four
> >> > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!).
> >> > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and
> >> > considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol,
> >> > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable
> >> > option I considered was/is producer gas.
> >>
> >>If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out
> >>the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis. No
> >>nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?
> >
> > Hi David
> >
> > Simply returning it - digging it back in - wouldn't work very well.
> > Composting it first with other mixed materials would work much
> > better. Feeding it to livestock and composting the livestock waste
> > with other mixed material will work much better still and this can be
> > sustainable. Also using livestock in grazing rotations followed by
> > crop production works the best and is truly sustainable. This is
> > called ley farming - the temporary grass pasture is called a "ley".
> > See:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >>I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre? I'm not doubting it,
> >>just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks.
> >>
> >> > The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation
> >> > for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop
> >> > and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last
> >> > years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off
> >> > the grid.
> >> >
> >> > So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources
> >> > toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a
> >> > common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car and
> >> > either flex-fuel of duel generators.
> >>
> >>If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your car with
> >>you have a point. Why not just run the car on the alcohol? Cars are
> >>very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very dense energy
> >>storage.
> >>
> >>--- David
> >>
> >> > As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the
> >> > number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding)
> >> > crop every year without damaging the soil.
> >> >
> >> > Mike
> >> >
> >> > */Jason & Katie /

Re: [Biofuel] Gardening and Tires

2006-04-10 Thread Doug Foskey

1: In Australia, pallets are chipped (then the nails etc are sorted & 
recycled) The chips go to mulch, etc.

2: Tractor tyres, with the sidewall cut out would make a good bed. (Use a 
pointy carving knife to cut the walls out- & do not tell the wife! Women just 
do not understand! (TIC)) Lay plastic in the tyre, then fill with 
soil/compost: that should isolate the tyre from the soil (but leave the 
bottom open, so the bed does not waterlog)

regards Doug

On Monday 10 April 2006 4:13, Keith Addison wrote:
> Hi Darryl
>
> I think your caution is well-founded. Tyres were discussed on one of
> the organic lists a while back and rejected because of cadmium
> leaching. I'll try to find the details, but maybe I won't get that
> far. Maybe they're okay for flowers, but do you want to have to
> segregate bits of your garden that could be poisoned? Not that it's
> not already poisoned, but there are degrees.
>
> America discards 270 million tyres a year. One each. Californians
> throw away 33 million tyres a year, which "tremendously outstrips"
> the demand for recycled rubber. Only 12 million to 18 million of
> those are recycled, leaving the rest to clog landfills or stand in
> massive piles that are fire hazards (and leach).
>
> That doesn't make sense, eh? Somebody has to be looking at their
> bottom line instead of the recycling imperative (let alone the reduce
> imperative).
>
> Something else that comes to mind is that a lot of natural gas is
> used to make carbon black, most of which is used to dye tyres. In the
> circumstances that's nuts.
>
> Pity tyre containers are a no-no for plants. We use permanent raised
> beds in the vegetable garden. We're starting to give them wooden
> sides, 12-15" high. It's a bit of a job but it works really well in
> several ways. Chipped sticks and other rough brown stuff in the paths
> between with a thin layer of manure underneath, which brings the
> worms while the woodchips prevent too much soil compaction when you
> walk on it. Eventually the roots grow under the paths too.
>
> But there's a major annoyance with this. For the wood we're using
> discarded container pallets, of which there's an endless supply,
> which is annoying in itself since they really shouldn't exist, but
> nearly all of them are made of fine mahogany and other tropical
> hardwoods. This is atrocious. It's excellent wood, I really hate
> doing this with it but we can't find any more deserving use for it
> than the beds, along with several big compost boxes, some slatted
> pathways, a floor to keep manure bags and so on off the ground and
> dry before it's used, all stuff you should use junk wood for, not
> mahogany. But at least we're using it.
>
> In the US: "In 1999, for instance, 7.5 million tons of wooden pallets
> went into the solid waste stream, accounting for over 60 percent of
> all wood waste." And: "There are an estimated 6 hardwood palletts in
> landfill for every resident of the US."
>
> What the hell is wood waste?? Which gets landfilled, sheesh.
>
> "During 1991, Ohio produced about 32 million pallets. Hardwoods make
> up 72 percent of the total production, softwood 15% and mixed 13%.
> One-third of the pallets were constructed for reuse and two-thirds of
> the pallets were one-way, or disposable pallets. Only 7.5 million
> pallets were repaired or recycled. The study estimates that disposing
> wood from pallets into landfills claims the equivalent of the saw
> timber on more than 18,000 Ohio acres each year. Eventually, a
> substantial quantity of wood pallets enter landfills, thus rendering
> this valuable resource useless."
> http://www.epa.state.oh.us/opp/recyc/pallet3.html
> Pallet Management Guide
>
> :-(
>
> Anyway Darryll I guess you'd be just as righteous using pallets as
> tyres. I haven't seen any pressure-treated pallets, which would leach
> arsenic. What a world!
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
> >Robert's posts are making me envious.  The ground is still frozen here,
> >and my short visits in the greenhouse to start tomatoes, peppers and
> >some salad greens just aren't enough.
> >
> >There has been some talk on a local plant e-mail list about using tires
> >for raised gardens.  I'm tempted.  I'm tired of bending over to weed,
> >and have access to tires and compost to fill them with.  Cedar planks
> >are rather expensive hereabouts.  (There will undoubtedly be issues with
> >the local aesthetics harassment, er.. by-law enforcement patrols, but
> >that's a separate issue.)
> >
> >However, there is concern about using tires for food crops due to
> >materials that will leach from the tires (e.g., zinc).  There is
> >material at SANET and http://www.paghat.com/rubbermulch.html etc.
> >criticizing the practice.  However, most (if not all) of that is
> >specific to use of shredded tires as mulch.  I could not find anything
> >in the biofuel archive (after an admittedly quick search).
> >
> >So, my questions are:
> >
> >Is the hazard associated with leached materials from tires suffici

Re: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer

2006-04-10 Thread marilyn


> We made most of our ethanol out of rice. We added 20% water
> and drove our car and truck on it with excellent results.
> Marilyn

Ethanol makes a total change to emissions from the exhaust in 
smell, like it is not too unpleasant to breath while the engine is 
running. No real need to go to the Bio-Diesel stage if only 
electricity generation and pumps are required.
ires1

We took one of our ethanol-powered vehicles in to be smog 
checked and it burned so clean the guy thought his test 
equipment had broken. 
Marilyn

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Re: [Biofuel] [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?

How's about all dropping shares/stocks in oil and related products/goods,
just dumping them and investing in gold?

1976 -1977 Gettie oil was in Nabalek/Ranger uranium mining/surveying in
Australia, now Iran has the stuff, all in the same basket them bods. Get rid
of the oil and shares go into gold as a commodity and see who worries? Sloan
is gone but the wind left is not sweet. Edzell destroyed by his father, if
this be the case why not the globe?

It will probably take agitation from all or most countries plus some to veer
the ship we all sail in only a few degrees towards a more appropriate
course. To get on course in one heave on the helm seems all but an
impossible dream.

How many will die in Iran to get the Gett stuff back? The profits on the
sales with minimal taxes and the men and women that will pay with lives and
taxes to get those profits back if the duo has their way. Perhaps the duo
can be used to fuel a reactor??

Doug

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?


> Hi Keith,
>I hope you are right about Americans. Are enough of them agitating
> Congress
> so that some action will be taken that will rid us of the Dumb-Duo? Geez,
> it'd
> be so nice. (Maybe you see things more clearly from Tokyo.) Or at least
> take back the war making powers they so generously gave to our gonzo
> War President.
> I was really disheartened when I got a reply from Sen. Obama which
> said there was a better way than impeachment. I had a lot of hope in this
> guy
> and got such a lame reply. Sen. Durbin didn't reply.
>I never was involved in politics until we got Bushed again. Watching
this
> fool before and after 9/11 drove me to join a progressive group of
> Democrats in St Louis. It does seem that his ineptness and hypocrisy
> really woke up a lot of people here.
>Thanks for those links. I read the one where distrust in public
> institutions
> is falling. Hopefully this'll make governments more sensitive to their
> people.
> As it stands it seems regular working people are getting screwed while big
> corporations
> are having wet dreams, having every wish fulfilled by the government. This
> extends all the way down to city governments as well.
> Many thanks to you! Peace and justice, D. Mindock  P.S. I will look at
those
> two other links on the
> Art of War and Tao Te Ching. They look useful, indeed!
>
> > >Keith,
> >>
> >>   Most (or enough) Americans are asleep or indifferent.
> >
> > Don't believe it! We were discussing it here about a week ago.
> >
> >>If we had a real
> >>mainstream media here, that
> >>didn't screen out news unfavorable to the administration, especially the
> >>bogus wars, things would never deteriorated to the low
> >>level we have now.
> >
> > But they did, and there were glaring signs long ago that you had to
> > take urgent action to counter corporate ownership concentration of
> > your media. Okay, it's understandable that such a high-intensity
> > ongoing barrage of engineered opinion engineering would send "enough"
> > of you to asleep "enough" of the time for everything to fall to
> > pieces about your ears and you didn't even notice. Maybe that's your
> > affair, or even your prerogative, but the problem is all the stuff
> > Washington and Wall Street export to the rest of us, using your tax
> > money (when they're not stealing it from you) and your inattention to
> > do it. One thing you have to wake up to is that you're part of the
> > rest of us.
> >
> > It's not your prerogative not to notice it when at long last there
> > are such stirrings and rumblings all about and, finally, a head of
> > steam gathered that's spreading like wildfire and sweeping up
> > everything else along with it in what's clearly an awakening, widely
> > being commented on. It reached critical mass last August, and the
> > only question now is what will constitute "enough" in this new
> > picture that's emerging - will enough people wake up and take enough
> > action to stop the disaster potential reaching critical mass? You're
> > among the awake so please stop thinking pre-six months ago and do
> > just whatever you possibly can to help spread the flames. Time to
> > take heart.
> >
> > By the way, there's not much doubt that the critical head of critical
> > steam was built up despite the mainstream media, and though (always
> > with exceptions) the mainstream media had behaved just as you say
> > they're now being left with little choice but to follow along, they
> > can't help getting sucked in. (I've done that to them before!) So
> > what if they pretend they did it?
> >
> > What if you should treat your voting system the same way? Other than
> > fierce monitoring and reporting, just ignore it and get on with real
> > business.
> >
> >>I hardly ever watch TV news and get my info off the web.
> >>I continuously write my Congress people, 2 Demo senat

Re: [Biofuel] sulphuric acids

2006-04-10 Thread Bob Carr

Try it, then you can tell us. Lol.
But seriously though, I would guess that the extra 2% is most likely either 
water or a gelling agent to make it thicker and stickier. Water will give 
you some extra soap in your wash, not sure what a gelling agent might do. I 
would suggest investing your two dollars in a bottle of this stuff and going 
back to the one litre test batch stage to see how it works.
Regards,
Bob

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:40 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] sulphuric acids


> in the foolproof method, as defined on the JTF web site, it is stated
> to use 95% sulphuric acid. This is hard to get these days for an
> individual and somewhat costly. however there is an old fashioned drain
> cleaner whose MSDS reports is 93% sulphuric acid. oddly enough anybody
> can buy gallons with no problem. Does anybody know if this slightly
> less percentage will work?
>  r. Allison
>
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Re: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer


Doug
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer


> We made most of our ethanol out of rice. We added 20% water
> and drove our car and truck on it with excellent results.
> Marilyn

Ethanol makes a total change to emissions from the exhaust in smell, like it
is not too unpleasant to breath while the engine is running. No real need to
go to the Bio-Diesel stage if only electricity generation and pumps are
required.

Last weekend, Saturday, we had more than 300 people at the resort and park
with meals etc. Only use a 5 KVA generator to cater plus very small amounts
of cooking gas and very little charcoal. Not bad for 300 + people. Will get
better as time and the work on energy sources improves through this site.
>
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
> Sticky/Glutinous rice from the fields makes real good ethanol. If
> used with
> and injection of 15 to 20% water it produces much more energy
> in a tuned
> engine to the fuel water mix than gas. Why the need to go to
> other
> Bio-Fuels? The Ethanol with the water injection would be
> sufficient   to run
> pumps, generators and the likes as long as the intake to the
> engine was as
> short as possible for easy starting.
>
> Doug
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Johnathan Corgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:24 AM
> Subject: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer
>
>
> > I've recently acquired through inheritance about 20 acres of
> farm land
> > in rural Philippines.  It's currently being used for rice and I think
> > some tobacco.  My wife's extended family works the land and
> the
> > operation has now passed into our hands.
> >
> > Being a professional engineer and California-based city boy, I
> have no
> > clue whatsoever about anything to do with farming.  My lifetime
> > agricultural experience is watching seeds sprout in egg carton
> planters
> > as a child in an elementary school science project.
> >
> > By pure coincidence, I've recently begun experimenting with
> WVO-based
> > biodiesel production, currently at the "successful 1L batch"
> stage.
> >
> > In addition, we've thought of building a vacation/retirement
> home on
> > this land, emphasizing "off the grid" energy--PV, wind,
> battery-based
> > power leveling, and diesel-generator backup.
> >
> > So all this adds up to a grand opportunity--can the land be
> made
> > sufficiently productive to support methanol or ethanol based
> biodiesel
> > manufacture for a small community, for a suitable definition of
> "small"?
> >
> > My understanding is that the climate is suitable for several
> different
> > types of oilseed crops, but I don't even know the right
> questions to
> > ask.  I do know, though, that rural Philippines has many
> interesting
> > logistical issues, not to mention some geopolitical instability
> and poor
> > infrastructure.
> >
> > I have many ideas, but little understanding of practicalities :-)
> >
> > (Not to mention the livelihoods of a number of members of my
> wife's
> > family, so this is more serious than mere experimentation.)
> >
> > -Johnathan
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainableli
> sts.org
> >
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> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
> (50,000
> messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?

Hi Keith,
   I hope you are right about Americans. Are enough of them agitating 
Congress
so that some action will be taken that will rid us of the Dumb-Duo? Geez, 
it'd
be so nice. (Maybe you see things more clearly from Tokyo.) Or at least
take back the war making powers they so generously gave to our gonzo
War President.
I was really disheartened when I got a reply from Sen. Obama which
said there was a better way than impeachment. I had a lot of hope in this 
guy
and got such a lame reply. Sen. Durbin didn't reply.
   I never was involved in politics until we got Bushed again. Watching this
fool before and after 9/11 drove me to join a progressive group of
Democrats in St Louis. It does seem that his ineptness and hypocrisy
really woke up a lot of people here.
   Thanks for those links. I read the one where distrust in public 
institutions
is falling. Hopefully this'll make governments more sensitive to their 
people.
As it stands it seems regular working people are getting screwed while big 
corporations
are having wet dreams, having every wish fulfilled by the government. This
extends all the way down to city governments as well.
Many thanks to you! Peace and justice, D. Mindock  P.S. I will look at those 
two other links on the
Art of War and Tao Te Ching. They look useful, indeed!

> >Keith,
>>
>>   Most (or enough) Americans are asleep or indifferent.
>
> Don't believe it! We were discussing it here about a week ago.
>
>>If we had a real
>>mainstream media here, that
>>didn't screen out news unfavorable to the administration, especially the
>>bogus wars, things would never deteriorated to the low
>>level we have now.
>
> But they did, and there were glaring signs long ago that you had to
> take urgent action to counter corporate ownership concentration of
> your media. Okay, it's understandable that such a high-intensity
> ongoing barrage of engineered opinion engineering would send "enough"
> of you to asleep "enough" of the time for everything to fall to
> pieces about your ears and you didn't even notice. Maybe that's your
> affair, or even your prerogative, but the problem is all the stuff
> Washington and Wall Street export to the rest of us, using your tax
> money (when they're not stealing it from you) and your inattention to
> do it. One thing you have to wake up to is that you're part of the
> rest of us.
>
> It's not your prerogative not to notice it when at long last there
> are such stirrings and rumblings all about and, finally, a head of
> steam gathered that's spreading like wildfire and sweeping up
> everything else along with it in what's clearly an awakening, widely
> being commented on. It reached critical mass last August, and the
> only question now is what will constitute "enough" in this new
> picture that's emerging - will enough people wake up and take enough
> action to stop the disaster potential reaching critical mass? You're
> among the awake so please stop thinking pre-six months ago and do
> just whatever you possibly can to help spread the flames. Time to
> take heart.
>
> By the way, there's not much doubt that the critical head of critical
> steam was built up despite the mainstream media, and though (always
> with exceptions) the mainstream media had behaved just as you say
> they're now being left with little choice but to follow along, they
> can't help getting sucked in. (I've done that to them before!) So
> what if they pretend they did it?
>
> What if you should treat your voting system the same way? Other than
> fierce monitoring and reporting, just ignore it and get on with real
> business.
>
>>I hardly ever watch TV news and get my info off the web.
>>I continuously write my Congress people, 2 Demo senators and a Repug rep,
>>and they just ignore my letters or at best I get polite form letters back.
>>The Repug rep is such a strong, mindless, Bush backer, it makes me sick. 
>>The
>>Demos are equally
>>bad in that they say there's a better way than impeaching Bush/Cheney. I
>>wish I knew
>>what that was. Maybe a firing squad? I feel BushCo is out of control but 
>>the
>>impotent Congress
>>is afraid, for whatever reason, to take the two idiots on. Yeah, there are 
>>a
>>couple exceptions, like
>>Sen. Feingold and the two Demos that've openly backed him. Kucinich (Rep,
>>OH, D) has had Bush's number way
>>ahead of his colleagues. The polls show Bush and Cheney are way down in
>>public opinion. Maybe
>>the two are desperate to do more of their nasty deeds before common sense
>>again prevails here. There's no telling
>>what two thugs like them will do to stay in power. Another 9/11? I would 
>>not
>>count that out as they
>>have no morals whatsoever.
>>
>>  So we have here a number of problems:
>>
>>A too trusting people who have been divided by wedge issues
>>Disinformation on the TV news. 9/11 was our Night of Broken Glass & new
>>Pearl Harbor
>>Corporate financed candidates
>>Hackable voting machines that can swing an election through built-in "back
>>

Re: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer

2006-04-10 Thread marilyn

We made most of our ethanol out of rice. We added 20% water 
and drove our car and truck on it with excellent results. 
Marilyn

Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
Sticky/Glutinous rice from the fields makes real good ethanol. If 
used with
and injection of 15 to 20% water it produces much more energy 
in a tuned
engine to the fuel water mix than gas. Why the need to go to 
other
Bio-Fuels? The Ethanol with the water injection would be 
sufficient   to run
pumps, generators and the likes as long as the intake to the 
engine was as
short as possible for easy starting.

Doug
- Original Message - 
From: "Johnathan Corgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:24 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer


> I've recently acquired through inheritance about 20 acres of 
farm land
> in rural Philippines.  It's currently being used for rice and I think
> some tobacco.  My wife's extended family works the land and 
the
> operation has now passed into our hands.
>
> Being a professional engineer and California-based city boy, I 
have no
> clue whatsoever about anything to do with farming.  My lifetime
> agricultural experience is watching seeds sprout in egg carton 
planters
> as a child in an elementary school science project.
>
> By pure coincidence, I've recently begun experimenting with 
WVO-based
> biodiesel production, currently at the "successful 1L batch" 
stage.
>
> In addition, we've thought of building a vacation/retirement 
home on
> this land, emphasizing "off the grid" energy--PV, wind, 
battery-based
> power leveling, and diesel-generator backup.
>
> So all this adds up to a grand opportunity--can the land be 
made
> sufficiently productive to support methanol or ethanol based 
biodiesel
> manufacture for a small community, for a suitable definition of 
"small"?
>
> My understanding is that the climate is suitable for several 
different
> types of oilseed crops, but I don't even know the right 
questions to
> ask.  I do know, though, that rural Philippines has many 
interesting
> logistical issues, not to mention some geopolitical instability 
and poor
> infrastructure.
>
> I have many ideas, but little understanding of practicalities :-)
>
> (Not to mention the livelihoods of a number of members of my 
wife's
> family, so this is more serious than mere experimentation.)
>
> -Johnathan
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainableli
sts.org
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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(50,000
messages):
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>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Documentation on Wood Properties

2006-04-10 Thread JJJN

Michael,
Did you know a structure with wood support beams will maintain integrity 
longer in a fire than one of steel?  This is true due to steels complete 
failure at a given temp where wood must be consumed to a failure point, 
thus taking longer.

My bit of trivia, thanks for the posted site it is a good one.  You may 
also be interested in the book "The Conversion and Seasoning of Wood" By 
William Brown.

Jim


Lugano Wilson wrote:

> this is a very useful resourc,
>  
> thanks.
>
>
>
> */Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> I found some good documentation on wood at the USDA Forrest
> Service.
>  
> Properties of wood:
>  
> *http://tinyurl.com/oyyd5*
>  
> or
>  
> 
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf#search='mechanical%20properties%20of%20wood'
> 
> 
>  
> Publications list:
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/document-lists/1-publication--list.html 
>  
> Mike
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>
>
>
>
> ..
> Division of Energy and Furnace Technology,
> Department of Materials Science and Engineering,
> Royal Institute of Technology (KTH),
> Brinellvägen 23,
> SE 100 44 Stockholm,
> Sweden.
> Tel. 0046 8 205 204
> Fax: 0046 8 207 681
> ..
>
> Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries 
> 
>  
> for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine

  > I have my oil burner running on BD100. I would like to add the FFA from
 > the split ...  probably 5 - 10%. Any problems anticipated w. this? 
Will it
 > stay dissolved in the BD or separate out?

It will stay dissolved. You'll also find the FFAs are only slightly 
more  viscous than the biodiesel, almost indistinguisable using only 
your senses.

Todd Swearingen



Thomas Kelly wrote:

> Hello All,
> I have many 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies full of the glycerine 
> coproduct.  I've begun the task of splitting it. I would appreciate 
> comments on my initial results.
> The oil I use titrates between 1.0 and 1.5g/L. Rough calculations 
> lead me to believe that I would need at least a Liter of 85% H3PO4 and 
> more likely 1.5 L for each cubie. I added 1L to each cubie   > no 
> split. I removed .5 gal from one of the cubies and added 50ml H3PO4, 
> shook it and waited, ---> no split. Added another 50ml, shook it and 
> waited  ---> split. I then added 500 ml acid to the 4 gal in the cubie 
> ---> no split.
> Another 100ml and yet another  > split.
>   No question; three distinct layers. Here's my concern:
> the mineral precipitate appears to be sandwiched between a dark top 
> layer and a lighter bottom layer.
> I assume the top layer is FFA, the bottom layer is glycerine + 
> methanol. Isn't the mineral layer supposed to be on the bottom?
>  More questions:
>  I use the single stage base method. I get a yield greater than 
> 80%. I have assumed that it is because I use oil that is low in FFA. 
> Is this correct?
>  Does this also explain why I get only about half as much FFA as 
> Glycerine when I separate the glycerine mix?
>  I have my oil burner running on BD100. I would like to add the 
> FFA from the split ...  probably 5 - 10%. Any problems anticipated w. 
> this? Will it stay dissolved in the BD or separate out?
>   Thanks,
>  Tom
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine

Thomas,

You shouldn't need but between 1.5 and 1.75 gallons of 85% phosphoric 
for every 50 gallons of glyc cocktail that is derived from 1.5 gram 
titrated oil.

That would work out to be approximately 0.135 to 0.157 gallons per cube, 
or 510 to 595 mililiters per cube.

I guess the question is how long are you allowing for the 
settling/phase-splitting process to occur and what is the physical 
appearance of the process as you mix?

You should see a near instantaneous curdling, which after some 
additional mixing gets broken down to sand like granules. The top layer 
of FFAs should be completely separated within an hour or two, giving the 
appearance of only two layers. Within a few hours the glycerol layer 
should start to become apparent. But the settling  may not be largely 
complete for a dozen hours.

The general problem with FFA recovery is over-acidification. This can 
create a strata between the oil and glycerol/methanol layer that 
contains fines of the salt that won't precipitate out. We've toyed with 
that strata when it occasionally appears, trying different methods to 
get it to precipitate, inclusive of further acidifying it. This 
generally only exacerbates the problem, creating the a liquid bottom 
layer, a center layer with suspended fines, and the FFA layer on top.

My bet is that you're hyper-dosing your glycerine cocktail. The first 
thing to do is to apply patience and do a series of bracket tests using 
considerably less acid and a generous time for the settling to take place.

I'll leave the precise chemistry to the chemists. It has much to do with 
the water content of the acid, the water solubility of the precipitate 
and probably a dozen other factors such as polarity, specific gravities 
and just downright nastiness of chemicals that don't want to play well 
with each other in the wrong ratios.

If you want to further some experimentation, you could take a sample 
from your inverted result and add minute amounts of glyc cocktail to it 
to see if the FFAs from that addition break in the presence of the 
over-acidified sample. The biggest clue there would be if your 
precipitate finally drops to the bottom. Add just 5-10 mililiters at a 
time to perhaps a 100 ml sample. Stir well and be patient, leaving at 
least a half-hour or hour between each addition (if necessary).

If that works, then you're not out the excess acid that you've already 
consumed. You just bring the levels down by adding some glyc cocktail.

Patience and max utility, you know. No point in using chemicals you 
don't need.

Todd Swearingen

Thomas Kelly wrote:

> Hello All,
> I have many 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubies full of the glycerine 
> coproduct.  I've begun the task of splitting it. I would appreciate 
> comments on my initial results.
> The oil I use titrates between 1.0 and 1.5g/L. Rough calculations 
> lead me to believe that I would need at least a Liter of 85% H3PO4 and 
> more likely 1.5 L for each cubie. I added 1L to each cubie   > no 
> split. I removed .5 gal from one of the cubies and added 50ml H3PO4, 
> shook it and waited, ---> no split. Added another 50ml, shook it and 
> waited  ---> split. I then added 500 ml acid to the 4 gal in the cubie 
> ---> no split.
> Another 100ml and yet another  > split.
>   No question; three distinct layers. Here's my concern:
> the mineral precipitate appears to be sandwiched between a dark top 
> layer and a lighter bottom layer.
> I assume the top layer is FFA, the bottom layer is glycerine + 
> methanol. Isn't the mineral layer supposed to be on the bottom?
>  More questions:
>  I use the single stage base method. I get a yield greater than 
> 80%. I have assumed that it is because I use oil that is low in FFA. 
> Is this correct?
>  Does this also explain why I get only about half as much FFA as 
> Glycerine when I separate the glycerine mix?
>  I have my oil burner running on BD100. I would like to add the 
> FFA from the split ...  probably 5 - 10%. Any problems anticipated w. 
> this? Will it stay dissolved in the BD or separate out?
>   Thanks,
>  Tom
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] NYTimes.com: With Big Boost From Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs

...did you cc Pimentel on this one? :-) Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This page was sent to you by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message from sender:Hello One and All: I thought this might be of interest to you all. Wishing all much happiness, Ana INTERNATIONAL / AMERICAS
| April 10, 2006 With Big Boost From Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs By LARRY ROHTER Brazil is meeting its growing fuel demand by increasing production not only of petroleum, but also ethanol. 1. 'West Wing' Writers' Novel Way of Picking the President 2. Some Parents Let Children Choose College, and Pay 3. Op-Ed Contributor: Christ Among the Partisans 4. With Big Boost From Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs 5. Young Officers Leaving Army at a High Rate » Go to Complete List AdvertisementThank You For Smoking opens March 17thNick Naylor, chief spokesman for Big Tobacco, makes his living defending the rights of smokers and cigarette makers in today's neo-puritanical culture. Confronted by health zealots and an opportunistic senator, Nick goes on a PR offensive, spinning away the dangers of cigarettes.http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/thankyouforsmoking/teaser/ Do you love NY? Get the insiders guide to where to stay, what to do and where to eat. Go to www.nytimes.com/travel for your NYC Guide now. Click here.
Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] storing biodiesel in veggie oil 55g drums

If you're really picky/concerned, rinse the drum out with a half-gallon 
of biodiesel. Take the oil/biodiesel rinse from all fourteen drums and 
mix that in with your last batch of oil to be turned into biodiesel.

Or don't. Your engine won't notice any difference between straight bio 
and bio "contaminated" with a little oil.

Todd Swearingen


james demer wrote:

>I recently scored 14 (!!!) 55g drums of new canola oil for free. I am
>processing it into biodiesel and I'm running out of storage. Can I put
>biodiesel back into a 55g drum that housed new canola oil? I emptied
>the drums pretty well but there is still probably a pint to a quart of
>oil in the bottom of the drum.
>I'm just concerned that the oil will contaminate the bio-d.
>What do you smart people think?
>
>Thanks, James
>
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>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] sulphuric acids

Forgot. You'll definitely want to pull off the liquid phase that settles 
out of the esterification if using such an acid purity. You wouldn't be 
sending much water over to the base side. But why include that variable 
if you can avoid it?

Todd Swearingen


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>in the foolproof method, as defined on the JTF web site, it is stated 
>to use 95% sulphuric acid. This is hard to get these days for an 
>individual and somewhat costly. however there is an old fashioned drain 
>cleaner whose MSDS reports is 93% sulphuric acid. oddly enough anybody 
>can buy gallons with no problem. Does anybody know if this slightly 
>less percentage will work?
>  r. Allison
>
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>  
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Re: [Biofuel] sulphuric acids

It should. Hopefully the other 7% is only water. Worth a try.

Todd Swearingen


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>in the foolproof method, as defined on the JTF web site, it is stated 
>to use 95% sulphuric acid. This is hard to get these days for an 
>individual and somewhat costly. however there is an old fashioned drain 
>cleaner whose MSDS reports is 93% sulphuric acid. oddly enough anybody 
>can buy gallons with no problem. Does anybody know if this slightly 
>less percentage will work?
>  r. Allison
>
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>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer

Sticky/Glutinous rice from the fields makes real good ethanol. If used with
and injection of 15 to 20% water it produces much more energy in a tuned
engine to the fuel water mix than gas. Why the need to go to other
Bio-Fuels? The Ethanol with the water injection would be sufficient   to run
pumps, generators and the likes as long as the intake to the engine was as
short as possible for easy starting.

Doug
- Original Message - 
From: "Johnathan Corgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:24 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer


> I've recently acquired through inheritance about 20 acres of farm land
> in rural Philippines.  It's currently being used for rice and I think
> some tobacco.  My wife's extended family works the land and the
> operation has now passed into our hands.
>
> Being a professional engineer and California-based city boy, I have no
> clue whatsoever about anything to do with farming.  My lifetime
> agricultural experience is watching seeds sprout in egg carton planters
> as a child in an elementary school science project.
>
> By pure coincidence, I've recently begun experimenting with WVO-based
> biodiesel production, currently at the "successful 1L batch" stage.
>
> In addition, we've thought of building a vacation/retirement home on
> this land, emphasizing "off the grid" energy--PV, wind, battery-based
> power leveling, and diesel-generator backup.
>
> So all this adds up to a grand opportunity--can the land be made
> sufficiently productive to support methanol or ethanol based biodiesel
> manufacture for a small community, for a suitable definition of "small"?
>
> My understanding is that the climate is suitable for several different
> types of oilseed crops, but I don't even know the right questions to
> ask.  I do know, though, that rural Philippines has many interesting
> logistical issues, not to mention some geopolitical instability and poor
> infrastructure.
>
> I have many ideas, but little understanding of practicalities :-)
>
> (Not to mention the livelihoods of a number of members of my wife's
> family, so this is more serious than mere experimentation.)
>
> -Johnathan
>
> ___
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> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
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messages):
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> -- 
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Re: [Biofuel] storing biodiesel in veggie oil 55g drums

2006-04-10 Thread bob allen

the drums should be fine, and I wouldn't sweat a pint or two of oil in 55 
gallons of bio-D.

james demer wrote:
> I recently scored 14 (!!!) 55g drums of new canola oil for free. I am
> processing it into biodiesel and I'm running out of storage. Can I put
> biodiesel back into a 55g drum that housed new canola oil? I emptied
> the drums pretty well but there is still probably a pint to a quart of
> oil in the bottom of the drum.
> I'm just concerned that the oil will contaminate the bio-d.
> What do you smart people think?
> 
> Thanks, James
> 
> ___
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> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
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> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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[Biofuel] NYTimes.com: With Big Boost From Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs

2006-04-10 Thread prosperityplanet

Title: E-Mail This

This page was sent to you by:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message from sender:
Hello One and All: I thought this might be of interest to you all. Wishing all much happiness, Ana

INTERNATIONAL / AMERICAS

| April 10, 2006

With Big Boost From Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs

By LARRY ROHTER

Brazil is meeting its growing fuel demand by increasing production not only of petroleum, but also ethanol.

1. 'West Wing' Writers' Novel Way of Picking the President
2. Some Parents Let Children Choose College, and Pay
3. Op-Ed Contributor: Christ Among the Partisans
4. With Big Boost From Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs
5. Young Officers Leaving Army at a High Rate

»
Go to Complete List

Thank You For Smoking opens March 17thNick Naylor, chief spokesman for Big Tobacco, makes his living defending the rights of smokers and cigarette makers in today's neo-puritanical culture. Confronted by health zealots and an opportunistic senator, Nick goes on a PR offensive, spinning away the dangers of cigarettes.http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/thankyouforsmoking/teaser/

Do you love NY? Get the insiders guide to where to stay, what to do and where to eat.
Go to www.nytimes.com/travel for your NYC Guide now. Click here.

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[Biofuel] sulphuric acids

2006-04-10 Thread ricalls

in the foolproof method, as defined on the JTF web site, it is stated 
to use 95% sulphuric acid. This is hard to get these days for an 
individual and somewhat costly. however there is an old fashioned drain 
cleaner whose MSDS reports is 93% sulphuric acid. oddly enough anybody 
can buy gallons with no problem. Does anybody know if this slightly 
less percentage will work?
  r. Allison

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[Biofuel] The Accidental Farmer

2006-04-10 Thread Johnathan Corgan

I've recently acquired through inheritance about 20 acres of farm land
in rural Philippines.  It's currently being used for rice and I think
some tobacco.  My wife's extended family works the land and the
operation has now passed into our hands.

Being a professional engineer and California-based city boy, I have no
clue whatsoever about anything to do with farming.  My lifetime
agricultural experience is watching seeds sprout in egg carton planters
as a child in an elementary school science project.

By pure coincidence, I've recently begun experimenting with WVO-based
biodiesel production, currently at the "successful 1L batch" stage.

In addition, we've thought of building a vacation/retirement home on
this land, emphasizing "off the grid" energy--PV, wind, battery-based
power leveling, and diesel-generator backup.

So all this adds up to a grand opportunity--can the land be made
sufficiently productive to support methanol or ethanol based biodiesel
manufacture for a small community, for a suitable definition of "small"?

My understanding is that the climate is suitable for several different
types of oilseed crops, but I don't even know the right questions to
ask.  I do know, though, that rural Philippines has many interesting
logistical issues, not to mention some geopolitical instability and poor
infrastructure.

I have many ideas, but little understanding of practicalities :-)

(Not to mention the livelihoods of a number of members of my wife's
family, so this is more serious than mere experimentation.)

-Johnathan

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[Biofuel] storing biodiesel in veggie oil 55g drums

2006-04-10 Thread james demer

I recently scored 14 (!!!) 55g drums of new canola oil for free. I am
processing it into biodiesel and I'm running out of storage. Can I put
biodiesel back into a 55g drum that housed new canola oil? I emptied
the drums pretty well but there is still probably a pint to a quart of
oil in the bottom of the drum.
I'm just concerned that the oil will contaminate the bio-d.
What do you smart people think?

Thanks, James

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Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine

2006-04-10 Thread Ken Provost

On Apr 10, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote:The oil I use titrates between 1.0 and 1.5g/L. That's pretty clean  oil  --  should only have maybe11g of FFA per liter, which will need about 5g (3ml)of  85% H3PO4 (per liter oil) to separate. Sounds likeyou're using about 300X too much phosphoric acid.I use the single stage base method. I get a yield greaterthan 80%. I have assumed that it is because I use oil thatis low in FFA. Does this also explain why I get only about half as muchFFA as Glycerine when I separate the glycerine mix?Per liter of oil, you might expect to get 100ml of glycerineand the above 11g (12ml) of FFA. If you're getting fivetimes that much "FFA", it's probly not FFA. I have my oil burner running on BD100. I would like to addthe FFA from the split ...  probably 5 - 10%. Any problemsanticipated w. this? Will it stay dissolved in the BD or separateout?FFA should be soluble in biodiesel to at least that extent.-K___
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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

I stumbled across this (for what it's worth):     http://www.haywired.com/microfarm/My_Links_Pages/biomass_crops_01.html     MikeKeith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  >Michael Redler wrote:> > Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.> >> > The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was> > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production and> > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research> > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what> > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops> > in between (four year
 rotation). My interpretation was that if I never> > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of> > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving> > local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four> > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!).> > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and> > considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol,> > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable> > option I considered was/is producer gas.>>If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out>the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis. No>nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?Hi DavidSimply returning it - digging it back in - wouldn't work very well.
 Composting it first with other mixed materials would work much better. Feeding it to livestock and composting the livestock waste with other mixed material will work much better still and this can be sustainable. Also using livestock in grazing rotations followed by crop production works the best and is truly sustainable. This is called ley farming - the temporary grass pasture is called a "ley". See:http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#leyBestKeith___
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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

Well, I really appreciate all the responses to my post. However, I'm still at a loss as to what I can do, given only one acre of land and the need for a productive crop rotation from the same piece of land every year.     So far, I saw one post that questioned whether you need crop rotation at all (i.e. Are you really taking anything important out of the soil?) and another from Keith that requires me to do a little work (Keith, you're in competition with my Amazon wish list - both providing more material than I have time to read lately!). I think the answer lies in the abundance of information given by Keith and I just have to make the time to go through it.     Thanks again!!     MikeJason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  ok, take ye auld
 oversimlification and use the 800 Gal/acre and then consider taking 5 acres to farm by rotation. one for pasture, one for fuel and the other three for restructuring (nitrogen, compost, hay, etc.) you could have the four year rotation, and never have a dry year as far as fuel is concerned. if you were really, really, ambitious you could plant red clover as hay stock and use the blossoms for a small sugar supply for ethanol as well. there are just too many ways to go about this, my grandfather is a jerk but he knows his farming, and i pay more attention than most people think.- Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:52 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability> >Michael Redler wrote:>> > Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.>> >>> > The reason for
 my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was>> > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production and>> > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research>> > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what>> > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops>> > in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never>> > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of>> > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving>> > local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four>> > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!).>> > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and>> > considered the possibility of alternating fuels
 (biodiesel, ethanol,>> > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable>> > option I considered was/is producer gas.If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out>>the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis. No>>nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?>> Hi David>> Simply returning it - digging it back in - wouldn't work very well.> Composting it first with other mixed materials would work much> better. Feeding it to livestock and composting the livestock waste> with other mixed material will work much better still and this can be> sustainable. Also using livestock in grazing rotations followed by> crop production works the best and is truly sustainable. This is> called ley farming - the temporary grass pasture is called a "ley".> See:>
 http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley>> Best>> KeithI'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre? I'm not doubting it,>>just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks. > The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation>> > for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop>> > and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last>> > years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off>> > the grid.>> >>> > So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources>> > toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a>> > common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car and>> > either flex-fuel of duel
 generators.If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your car with>>you have a point. Why not just run the car on the alcohol? Cars are>>very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very dense energy>>storage.--- David > As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the>> > number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding)>> > crop every year without damaging the soil.>> >>> > Mike>> >>> > */Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> >>> > i was looking through the archives trying to find something about>> > that>> > earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for>> > ethanol, or has>> > it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly
 sure you can>> > digest and>> > subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step further, it>> > might be a>> > more efficient process.>> > - Original Message ->> > From: Michael Redler>> > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>

Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

I agree but isn't it a case where they are Green-er than a nuke plant or a coal fired power plant?Is there somewhere where someone had compared the pollutants from PV mfgr and say 10 years of pollution from an electric plant for one house?Thanks.On  11Apr, 2006, at 3:17 AM, Chip Mefford wrote:As much as I like PVs, and i do, I'm not convinced of their 'green-ness'. ___
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[Biofuel] Separating Glycerine

2006-04-10 Thread Thomas Kelly




Hello All,
I have many 4.5 
gal (17.7L) cubies full of the glycerine coproduct.  I've begun the 
task of splitting it. I would appreciate comments on my initial 
results.
The oil I use titrates between 1.0 and 
1.5g/L. Rough calculations lead me to believe that I would need at least a Liter 
of 85% H3PO4 and more likely 1.5 L for each cubie. I added 1L to each 
cubie   > no split. I removed .5 gal from one of the cubies and 
added 50ml H3PO4, shook it and waited, ---> no split. Added another 50ml, 
shook it and waited  ---> split. I then added 500 ml acid to the 4 
gal in the cubie ---> no split.
Another 100ml and yet another  > 
split.
  No question; three distinct 
layers. Here's my concern:
the mineral precipitate appears to be sandwiched between a 
dark top layer and a lighter bottom layer.
I assume the top layer is FFA, the bottom layer is glycerine + 
methanol. Isn't the mineral layer supposed to be on the bottom?
 More questions:
 I use the single stage base 
method. I get a yield greater than 80%. I have assumed 
that it is because I use oil that is low in FFA. Is this correct?
 Does this also explain why I get only 
about half as much FFA as Glycerine when I separate the glycerine 
mix?
 I have my oil burner running on 
BD100. I would like to add the FFA from the split ...  probably 5 - 10%. 
Any problems anticipated w. this? Will it stay dissolved in the BD or separate 
out?
  
Thanks,
 
Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread Jason& Katie

ok, take ye auld oversimlification and use the 800 Gal/acre and then 
consider taking 5 acres to farm by rotation. one for pasture, one for fuel 
and the other three for restructuring (nitrogen, compost, hay, etc.) you 
could have the four year rotation, and never have a dry year as far as fuel 
is concerned. if you were really, really, ambitious you could plant red 
clover as hay stock and use the blossoms for a small sugar supply for 
ethanol as well. there are just too many ways to go about this, my 
grandfather is a jerk but he knows his farming, and i pay more attention 
than most people think.
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability


> >Michael Redler wrote:
>> > Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
>> >
>> > The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was
>> > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production and
>> > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research
>> > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what
>> > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops
>> > in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never
>> > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of
>> > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving
>> > local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four
>> > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!).
>> > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and
>> > considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol,
>> > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable
>> > option I considered was/is producer gas.
>>
>>If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out
>>the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis.  No
>>nutrients would be removed.  Wouldn't this be sustainable?
>
> Hi David
>
> Simply returning it - digging it back in - wouldn't work very well.
> Composting it first with other mixed materials would work much
> better. Feeding it to livestock and composting the livestock waste
> with other mixed material will work much better still and this can be
> sustainable. Also using livestock in grazing rotations followed by
> crop production works the best and is truly sustainable. This is
> called ley farming - the temporary grass pasture is called a "ley".
> See:
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>>I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre?  I'm not doubting it,
>>just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks.
>>
>> > The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation
>> > for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop
>> > and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last
>> > years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off
>> > the grid.
>> >
>> > So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources
>> > toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a
>> > common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car and
>> > either flex-fuel of duel generators.
>>
>>If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your car with
>>you have a point.  Why not just run the car on the alcohol? Cars are
>>very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very dense energy
>>storage.
>>
>>--- David
>>
>> > As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the
>> > number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding)
>> > crop every year without damaging the soil.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > */Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>> >
>> > i was looking through the archives trying to find something about
>> > that
>> > earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for
>> > ethanol, or has
>> > it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you can
>> > digest and
>> > subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step further, it
>> > might be a
>> > more efficient process.
>> > - Original Message -
>> > From: Michael Redler
>> > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> > Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:51 AM
>> > Subject: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm glad so see discussions about WVO (supply, sustainability and 
>> > big
>> > business) and methods for pressing your own oil. I always felt that
>> > increasing competition for WVO in the future will make that supply
>> > unsustainable. That along with the future availability of methanol
>> > caused me
>> > to shift my interest to ethanol as a fuel.
>> >
>> > Now I'm wondering if a scheme can me developed for a crop rotation
>>

Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

According to our Commander in Thief., e hehhh he, I mean 
Chief, It's all " wild speculation." He used those words today when 
referring to the article that ran some renowned rag this weekend.

Oddly enough, "wild speculation" doesn't mean something isn't true. A 
lot of people have made their fortunes speculating.

In a couple of months we'll probably see "wild speculation" going down 
in the annals of history, right beside "weapons of mass destruction."

Let's hope not.

Todd Swearingen



Debra wrote:

>from: Deborah Howard (I'm on the list)
>I've been reading all the messages and thought I would comment on this one. 
>I'm a massage therapist at the "biggest casino in the world" consequently I 
>see people all over the world on a regular basis.  A few weeks ago I was in 
>conversation with a woman in our army.  I asked if she had ever been to 
>Egypt, and she looked up and asked me if I knew something.  She said she had 
>already served over a year in Iraq and was home when she received a standby 
>notice that she may be sent into Egypt.  I wondered what that was all about. 
>Any thing to do with Iran?
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:13 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]
>
>
>  
>
>>I've been posting stuff on this here for months, so have a few
>>others, very few people have taken any notice.
>>
>>It is utterly unbelievable that Americans, only now so belatedly
>>waking up with growing fury at how they were lied to and manipulated
>>on the road to the Iraq debacle are actually swallowing the exact
>>same set of lies and manipulations in order to do the same or worse
>>in Iran.
>>
>>What the hell is the matter with you people??? What are you going to
>>do about it? Vote??? Good God, WAKE UP!!!
>>
>>Stop it happening!
>>
>>Now!
>>
>>Damn, thank heavens for Seymour Hersh.
>>
>>"Hopefully" you say Mike:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Let's all pray that reason and sanity prevail once again.
>>>
>>>Best wishes for world peace,
>>>  
>>>
>>With all due respect it'll take a little more than hopes prayers and
>>wishes. Do it! Put a stop to your mad dogs.
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hakan,
>>>
>>>Agreed. The sh-t would hit the fan. Hopefully enough reason and sanity 
>>>will
>>>eventually prevail like it did during the cold war (we survived it
>>>somehow). Of
>>>course it may have been MAD (a form of insanity called Mutually Assured
>>>Destruction, the idea that no one wins, except by not fighting or starting 
>>>a
>>>nuclear war), that actually saved us during the cold war.
>>>
>>>What I find to be so ludicrous (silly, ridiculous) is that if  IRAN
>>>really wanted
>>>to Nuke Israel or the USA they would not need a real nuclear weapon, and 
>>>they
>>>would have done it already with a dirty nuclear weapon since they already 
>>>have
>>>nuclear power plants with uranium.
>>>
>>>I suspect they have not done so, even if they wanted to, because
>>>they know if they
>>>did the US or Israel would level Iran in retaliation, probably with nukes.
>>>
>>>The really scary part,  I fear, is that even if the US does back
>>>down, Israel will
>>>still not allow Iran to make nuclear bombs and therefore will not
>>>back down. So,
>>>anyway you look at it, if Iran does not back off on the nuclear
>>>issue we will all
>>>be in deep sh-t.
>>>
>>>What also concerns me is that if the US attacks Iran, North Korea
>>>will probably
>>>freak out and go nuts since they would believe they were next. I have 
>>>heard no
>>>mention of this yet in the news.
>>>
>>>Let's all pray that reason and sanity prevail once again.
>>>
>>>Best wishes for world peace,
>>>
>>>Mike McGinness
>>>
>>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
Mike,

As a foreigner and hearing Bush preparing for attacks on Iran, I
sometimes have a very short moment of wishing him doing it, because
it would be so stupid and probably finish him. Then I think about my
American friends with my positive experiences from US and wish
strongly that he would be stopped. If US attack Iran, then we would
rapidly understand what the expression "the sh-t hits the fan" means.
The global consequences for US would be enormously negative.

Hakan

At 06:16 09/04/2006, you wrote:


>Reading the article discussed below is just plain scary as hell. If
>it's true we
>need to contact our congresspersons and senators and tell them
>  
>
>>>how we feel so
>>>  
>>>
>that they can put a stop to this madness now before it is too late.
>Since there
>is an election coming up in November,  something tells me if
>  
>
>>>they hear from
>>>  
>>>
>enough of us now they will take decisive action.
>
>Mike McGinness
>
>
>
>Marty Phee wrote:
>
>  
>
>> Original Message 
>>Subject:[IP] I

Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread Chip Mefford

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> I think the problem is that driving 12,000 miles per year is not
> sustainable, no matter if you use PV, biofuels, whatever
> 

Of that I am not so sure.

there are a *LOT* of internal combustion engines
around. I mean a *LOT* of them. And they
are pretty broadly deployed geographically.
And one internal combustion engine can
transport a lot of other internal combustion
engines.

i have no idea how many, but it's a lot :)

If kept in good condition, and not abused,
they last a long long time.

*if* folks stopped building internal combustion
engines tomorrow, and stopped the attendant
extraction, blah blah blah (and if -insert
hi-cost need/desire here) grew on trees,
there would be enough internal combustion
engines potentially powered by renewable
resources to continue addressing transportation
needs for quite some time, whilst the world
transistions to whatever the heck comes after.

This is *not* true of PV arrays.

Yes yes, I am not addressing a huge amount of
facets that are germane.

However, I'm trying to look at it in huge
broad stroks.

Assuming the internal combustion is already present,
and that is not a bad assumption,
then the technology impact of address energy needs
can take place at a much 'lower' level.

Yes, you are right, not sustainable, in the
ad infinitum sense. But in the stop-gap
sense, , ,

---chipper

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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread Zeke Yewdall

I think the problem is that driving 12,000 miles per year is not
sustainable, no matter if you use PV, biofuels, whatever

On 4/10/06, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > one acre of PV will produce enough electricity to run an electric car
> > roughly 1.5 million miles per year...  Or alternatively, you could run
> > it 12,000 miles or so with about 300 square feet of PV.
> >
>
> Yeah, *but*
>
> How sustainable are PV arrays?
>
> As much as I like PVs, and i do, I'm
> not convinced of their 'green-ness'.
>
> Agriculture is pretty adaptable,
> high tech electronic manufacture
> and related is a bit less so, I think.
>
> 
>
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>
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>
>

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[Biofuel] Soil and sustainability - Re: off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]

Here's a diagram of the soilfood web:

http://www.magicsoil.com/SoilFood.htm
Soil Food Web

For anyone interested in soil life and sustainable growing Dr. Elaine 
Ingham's Soil Foodweb site is filled with interest:

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/
Soil Foodweb, Inc.

Along with these:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html
Small Farms Library

http://journeytoforever.org/farm.html
Small farms

http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html
Composting

http://journeytoforever.org/garden.html
Organic gardening

http://journeytoforever.org/cityfarm.html
City farms

Thos are whole sections, not just single pages.

Incidentally, the magicsoil.com site above has some interesting 
information which explains why biogas sludge is not a great organic 
fertiliser as often alleged, although it is indeed organic in origin 
and contains relatively high N-P-K levels (regarding which see 
previous message below):

http://www.magicsoil.com/preventi1.htm
VFA's

Elaine Ingham agrees with that and so do I. Biogas sludge must be 
mixed with other materials and hot composted before it can be used on 
the soil safely and with good effect.

Magicsoil.com does things with forced air injection into their 
compost piles, which will surely work well but it's not the essential 
they claim. Albert Howard found air will penetrate a compost pile 
satisfactorily to a depth of three feet. In other words your pile can 
be up to six feet thick in any one direction.

We mostly use one-meter-a-side boxes for composting. The bottom is a 
couple of inches above the ground on a chickenwire frame standing on 
bricks to allow air supply from underneath (it gets hot so the 
aeration goes up). We stand a two-inch plastic water pipe on end in 
the middle on the bottom and build the pile around it, pulling the 
pipe out when the box is full to leave a two-inch vertical breathing 
hole. The temperature reaches the 70s Centigrade (160+ F) even in 
sub-zero weather. No VFAs or phytotoxins.

I have some detailed photographs of our compost boxes, how they're 
built and how they work, but the rest of that material isn't yet 
ready for uploading.

Meanwhile there are designs for compost boxes in May Bruce's book 
Common-Sense Compost Making:

8. Plan for a Small Bin
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/QR/QRapp1.html#app8

9. Plan for a Movable Bin
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/QR/QRapp1.html#app9

Also more coming soon at our website on making and using compost tea.

Best

Keith


> >What about the oceans?  I know that's not the same as hydroponics, but
> >they are a sustainable ecosystem which do not depend on soil.  The
> >organic matter just floats around in the water.  Now, I admit that
> >trying to bring it onto land, and grow something like tomatoes instead
> >of kelp, is not the same.  But is does seem that we can't just
> >arbritrarily dismiss non-soil growing as inherently unsustainable,
> >when 3/4'ths of our plant has been doing this for billions of years.
>
>Try growing sea plants on the land and land plants in the sea then.
>Both systems are sustainable, and complementary, but there's not much
>in common in the way nature grows things in the two different media,
>soil and the sea.
>
>There's a fairly famous case of two chemists who announced they'd
>synthesized sea water. They had, they did the perfect job of it, only
>fish died in it. Yeah, sounds like an urban legend but it was quite
>widely quoted in the pre-Net days before urban legends. Whatever, it
>makes the point.
>
>There are plenty of different kinds of eco-systems, but if you want
>to grow food plants grow them in living soil because that's where
>they come from and that's what they're a part of.
>
>Hydroponics considers the provision of N, P, K, plus the other macro-
>and micro-nutrients needed for plants to grow. The soil is more
>interested in protein synthesis, and so is the plant. So is the
>immune system of the entire land-based biosphere. If the immune
>system has holes in it, whatever's making the holes is not
>sustainable, and neither is the system it's a part of.
>
>You get holes in the immune system when the proteins don't come out
>right at the lowest level of the biotic pyramid, where the synthesis
>starts, in the soil. Then the holes appear all over the place, not
>necessarily where you might expect to find them.
>
>For example, most food plants are mycorrhiza formers, ie their roots
>become a combination of plant root and soil fungus, with the fungus
>penetrating the root and being consumed alive by the plant - this is
>living protoplasm, not just N, P and K or whatever nutrients.
>Meanwhile the fungus consumes plant waste-products which include
>products of photo-synthesis which would not otherwise by available to
>the fungus. On the other hand the fungus has the advantage of being
>able to consume humus and soil organic matter direct, which the plant
>can't do. Providing and removing this symbiotic association has a
>vivid effect on plant growth, health a

Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread Chip Mefford

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> one acre of PV will produce enough electricity to run an electric car
> roughly 1.5 million miles per year...  Or alternatively, you could run
> it 12,000 miles or so with about 300 square feet of PV.
> 

Yeah, *but*

How sustainable are PV arrays?

As much as I like PVs, and i do, I'm
not convinced of their 'green-ness'.

Agriculture is pretty adaptable,
high tech electronic manufacture
and related is a bit less so, I think.



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Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]

>What about the oceans?  I know that's not the same as hydroponics, but
>they are a sustainable ecosystem which do not depend on soil.  The
>organic matter just floats around in the water.  Now, I admit that
>trying to bring it onto land, and grow something like tomatoes instead
>of kelp, is not the same.  But is does seem that we can't just
>arbritrarily dismiss non-soil growing as inherently unsustainable,
>when 3/4'ths of our plant has been doing this for billions of years.

Try growing sea plants on the land and land plants in the sea then. 
Both systems are sustainable, and complementary, but there's not much 
in common in the way nature grows things in the two different media, 
soil and the sea.

There's a fairly famous case of two chemists who announced they'd 
synthesized sea water. They had, they did the perfect job of it, only 
fish died in it. Yeah, sounds like an urban legend but it was quite 
widely quoted in the pre-Net days before urban legends. Whatever, it 
makes the point.

There are plenty of different kinds of eco-systems, but if you want 
to grow food plants grow them in living soil because that's where 
they come from and that's what they're a part of.

Hydroponics considers the provision of N, P, K, plus the other macro- 
and micro-nutrients needed for plants to grow. The soil is more 
interested in protein synthesis, and so is the plant. So is the 
immune system of the entire land-based biosphere. If the immune 
system has holes in it, whatever's making the holes is not 
sustainable, and neither is the system it's a part of.

You get holes in the immune system when the proteins don't come out 
right at the lowest level of the biotic pyramid, where the synthesis 
starts, in the soil. Then the holes appear all over the place, not 
necessarily where you might expect to find them.

For example, most food plants are mycorrhiza formers, ie their roots 
become a combination of plant root and soil fungus, with the fungus 
penetrating the root and being consumed alive by the plant - this is 
living protoplasm, not just N, P and K or whatever nutrients. 
Meanwhile the fungus consumes plant waste-products which include 
products of photo-synthesis which would not otherwise by available to 
the fungus. On the other hand the fungus has the advantage of being 
able to consume humus and soil organic matter direct, which the plant 
can't do. Providing and removing this symbiotic association has a 
vivid effect on plant growth, health and pest immunity, far beyond 
what could be explained by the mere N-P-K content of the fungus 
consumed. It also has a vivid effect on the immunity of the rest of 
the biotic pyramid above the plant layer, when compared with 
livestock etc that are nourished by the products of infertile soils 
with poor levels of soil life and no mycorrhizal fungi. This is a 
fairly typical example:

>Donna Fezler of Grand Cypress Ranch did a funded, controlled study 
>of the nutritional value of grocery-store vs free-range eggs. She 
>had three groups of chicks, fed on free-choice non-medicated 
>commercial feed, with one group fed a supplement of cooked 
>free-range eggs twice a day, a second fed the same amount of 
>grocery-store eggs, and the third a control getting only the 
>free-choice feed.
>
>"The grocery store egg fed group ate more than any group by 28 days 
>and weighed the least ... the grocery eggs were actually negative 
>nutrition. The birds in that group had poor feed efficiency, 
>consuming the most feed and having the least weight gain. The 
>free-range egg fed birds were 22.4% heavier than the grocery egg fed 
>birds... There were residual effects of the grocery egg on the 
>chicks' development... There is an issue here: grocery store eggs 
>did not even provide the same nutrition as nothing at all with these 
>chicks."

Mycorrhizal fungi are among the many types of soil life that are 
destroyed by the use of chemical nutrient "fertilisers".

See, inter alia:

Trees and Toadstools by M.C. Rayner
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#rayner

An Agricultural Testament by Sir Albert Howard
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#howard

It's also often been found that different composts containing 
different levels of N-P-K might not have the expected comparative 
results when actually used in the field. The one with the lower N-P-K 
level can often produce much better yields than the higher-nutrient 
compost, even when used side by side with the same crop in the same 
field. The nutrient levels in the fertiliser often show little or no 
correlation with the yield, resistance and quality of the crop.

It ain't just chemistry. Neglect the biology and you're entering a cul-de-sac.

I could go on and on. Okay okay, I DO go on and on. LOL!

Best

Keith

>Zeke
>
>On 4/8/06, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Peter
> >
> > >Hi Keith,
> > >
> > >I completely agree.  I was just thinking about the
> > >poor guy who had to haul 5-gallon buckets of s

Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread Zeke Yewdall

one acre of PV will produce enough electricity to run an electric car
roughly 1.5 million miles per year...  Or alternatively, you could run
it 12,000 miles or so with about 300 square feet of PV.

On 4/10/06, John Mullan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I thought he said 800 gallons of ethanol per acre.  But I don't know if
> either one can yeild that much.  I'd be interested to know.
>
> However, Michael, perhaps you need 4 acres and rotate around so you can
> have everything.  I know, wishful thinking.
>
> Cheers,
> John
>
>
> On 4/10/2006, "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Michael Redler wrote:
> >> Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
> >>
> >> in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never
> >> wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of
> >> land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol.
> >
> >I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre?  I'm not doubting it,
> >just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks.
> >
>
>
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>

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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread John Mullan

I thought he said 800 gallons of ethanol per acre.  But I don't know if
either one can yeild that much.  I'd be interested to know.

However, Michael, perhaps you need 4 acres and rotate around so you can
have everything.  I know, wishful thinking.

Cheers,
John


On 4/10/2006, "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Michael Redler wrote:
>> Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
>>
>> in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never
>> wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of
>> land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. 
>
>I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre?  I'm not doubting it,
>just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officialsoflyingabout 9/11


Check out:
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/jones/StevenJones.html
Basically the planes were not enough to do the collapse alone. They
needed help. WRT having to have the planes hit at the exact level
where there would be charges, not necessary. The upper few stories
wouldn't need any but maybe they were there, just in case. Just put the 
charges
at all the floors below. Demolition
wiring is sophisticated enough to initiate the charges at the level where
each plane hit to make it look like the plane's impact/fire started the 
pancaking.
WRT to the steel beams being quickly hauled off for scrap, normally there is
an investigation by the fire marshall. He would've wanted to see those 
beams.
A lot can be learned. At a minimum, how the beams failed. Were they twisted
or warped. Any signs of melting. Etc.  Hauling the beams off so that no
post mortem of the building could be accomplished is, in effect, destroying
evidence. Also what caused the concrete to turn into powder? There was
huge amounts of concrete dust. Concrete doesn't normally powderize.
Peace, D. Mindock


>
>
>
>> Another unanswered question: why were the massive steel beams quickly
>> gathered up and
>> ship off for scrap? Is it because the beams might've shown that they were
>> torn apart by
>
> If you have been down to ground Zero you will notice there is no room to
> store the debris from a fraction of one tower let alone keep all the steel
> for "investigation". Does the steel get stored at whose cost while they 
> are
> trying to locate people? I personally would not even look at the steel
> other than a hindrance to rescue work and get it out of there as fast as I
> could to ease the rescue congestion work.
>
>> massive explosive charges? BTW, it's believed that the charges were set
> off
>> just as the floor
>> above was just about to hit the floor below. Then this sequence was
> repeated
>> all the way down
>> to the last floor. Doing this would create the nice domino effect and 
>> make
>> it appear that each
>> floor was being crushed by the weight of the floors above. It would make 
>> a
>> free fall effect and
>> not cause the building to go beyond its footprint. Remember how quickly
> the
>> towers
>> collapsed? In 15 seconds the entire tower was down after the initial
>> charges were set off.
>
> So the aircraft was not a massive explosive device?? Had no effect on the
> structure at all?? did not change any of the steel characteristics?? It 
> was
> all done with carefully placed explosives. I seem to remember the top 
> floors
> staying intact for several seconds and the lower floors where impact
> occurred
> collapsing first? This if charges were laid would mean that the plane 
> would
> need to be upon the exact floor of the explosives not one floor above or
> below other wise the whole charge progression would be out of time
> sequence???
>
>> They fell down at free fall velocity, or close to it.
>> I believe there were puffs of smoke that appeared just as the collapse
>> began.
>
> Powder coatings and plaster would more than account for the puffs of
> smoke/dust as each section went.
>
>> And yep, Building 7, never hit, did go down in the free fall way, right
> into
>> its
>> footprint. If you have ever seen demolition of tall buildings, this is 
>> how
>> the pros
>> do it. Those charges were pre-set by people who were not amateurs. The
>> sequential timing
>> of the charges was perfect. All three buildings fell exactly in the same
>> way.
>
> Have you looked at sites where other buildings have fallen through bad
> design? There are hundreds, some swaying before they collapsed and some
> falling in on themselves to fill their own foot print. ( They, collapsing
> buildings, actually fill quite a bit more than their footprint as did the
> towers).
>
> On the other hand, some place some where there is the emanation of a bad
> smell about the whole affair. Too many things have been covered up, not 
> all
> was done that could, and why was the 5 sided being strengthened? Why hit 
> in
> the vulnerable places, insider trading perhaps???
>
> Who would come forth as an architect and say "Well I calculated wrongly 
> and
> thus the towers could not put up with the impact of - - - - - - - - and 
> due
> to this minor error on my part so many lives are lost" I think as is 
> the
> norm with human preservation from Sloan to the ground cover up what you 
> can,
> deny the rest or blame some one else.
>
> Keep in mind the bungles architects have made and then ask if the oxygen
> tanks were factored in and all the rest? Was a B-52 in-air fueller used to
> determine the impact, no. So why now use the scenario of a smaller plane 
> as
> the basis for impact?? Why was not the biggest plane used, why was not a
> nuclear blast used at a distance for theoretical purposes?
>
> The more I study logic, and theory the more broader it gets and the more 
> it
> becomes intangible, a lot of loose ends out there.
>
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> >

Re: [Biofuel] BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials oflyingabout 9/11

2006-04-10 Thread jtcava






Actually the plane was more correctly a giant incendiary device.

  


  
  
So the aircraft was not a massive explosive device?? Had no effect on the
structure at all?? 




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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

2006-04-10 Thread Debra

from: Deborah Howard (I'm on the list)
I've been reading all the messages and thought I would comment on this one. 
I'm a massage therapist at the "biggest casino in the world" consequently I 
see people all over the world on a regular basis.  A few weeks ago I was in 
conversation with a woman in our army.  I asked if she had ever been to 
Egypt, and she looked up and asked me if I knew something.  She said she had 
already served over a year in Iraq and was home when she received a standby 
notice that she may be sent into Egypt.  I wondered what that was all about. 
Any thing to do with Iran?
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]


> I've been posting stuff on this here for months, so have a few
> others, very few people have taken any notice.
>
> It is utterly unbelievable that Americans, only now so belatedly
> waking up with growing fury at how they were lied to and manipulated
> on the road to the Iraq debacle are actually swallowing the exact
> same set of lies and manipulations in order to do the same or worse
> in Iran.
>
> What the hell is the matter with you people??? What are you going to
> do about it? Vote??? Good God, WAKE UP!!!
>
> Stop it happening!
>
> Now!
>
> Damn, thank heavens for Seymour Hersh.
>
> "Hopefully" you say Mike:
>
>>Let's all pray that reason and sanity prevail once again.
>>
>>Best wishes for world peace,
>
> With all due respect it'll take a little more than hopes prayers and
> wishes. Do it! Put a stop to your mad dogs.
>
> Keith
>
>
>>Hakan,
>>
>>Agreed. The sh-t would hit the fan. Hopefully enough reason and sanity 
>>will
>>eventually prevail like it did during the cold war (we survived it
>>somehow). Of
>>course it may have been MAD (a form of insanity called Mutually Assured
>>Destruction, the idea that no one wins, except by not fighting or starting 
>>a
>>nuclear war), that actually saved us during the cold war.
>>
>>What I find to be so ludicrous (silly, ridiculous) is that if  IRAN
>>really wanted
>>to Nuke Israel or the USA they would not need a real nuclear weapon, and 
>>they
>>would have done it already with a dirty nuclear weapon since they already 
>>have
>>nuclear power plants with uranium.
>>
>>I suspect they have not done so, even if they wanted to, because
>>they know if they
>>did the US or Israel would level Iran in retaliation, probably with nukes.
>>
>>The really scary part,  I fear, is that even if the US does back
>>down, Israel will
>>still not allow Iran to make nuclear bombs and therefore will not
>>back down. So,
>>anyway you look at it, if Iran does not back off on the nuclear
>>issue we will all
>>be in deep sh-t.
>>
>>What also concerns me is that if the US attacks Iran, North Korea
>>will probably
>>freak out and go nuts since they would believe they were next. I have 
>>heard no
>>mention of this yet in the news.
>>
>>Let's all pray that reason and sanity prevail once again.
>>
>>Best wishes for world peace,
>>
>>Mike McGinness
>>
>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>
>> > Mike,
>> >
>> > As a foreigner and hearing Bush preparing for attacks on Iran, I
>> > sometimes have a very short moment of wishing him doing it, because
>> > it would be so stupid and probably finish him. Then I think about my
>> > American friends with my positive experiences from US and wish
>> > strongly that he would be stopped. If US attack Iran, then we would
>> > rapidly understand what the expression "the sh-t hits the fan" means.
>> > The global consequences for US would be enormously negative.
>> >
>> > Hakan
>> >
>> > At 06:16 09/04/2006, you wrote:
>> > >Reading the article discussed below is just plain scary as hell. If
>> > >it's true we
>> > >need to contact our congresspersons and senators and tell them
>>how we feel so
>> > >that they can put a stop to this madness now before it is too late.
>> > >Since there
>> > >is an election coming up in November,  something tells me if
>>they hear from
>> > >enough of us now they will take decisive action.
>> > >
>> > >Mike McGinness
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Marty Phee wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >  Original Message 
>> > > > Subject:[IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?
>> > > > Date:   Sat, 8 Apr 2006 15:43:42 -0400
>> > > > From:   David Farber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > > Reply-To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > > To: ip@v2.listbox.com
>> > > > References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > >
>> > > > Begin forwarded message:
>> > > >
>> > > > From: Tim Finin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > > Date: April 8, 2006 3:40:18 PM EDT
>> > > > To: Dave Farber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > > Subject: Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?
>> > > >
>> > > > Seymour Hersh has a 6000 work article in next week's New
>> > > > Yorker on possible plans for a pre-emptive bombing strike
>> > > > against Iran including the use of nuclear weapons.  While
>> > > > Hersh has not always been r

Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

>Michael Redler wrote:
> > Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
> >
> > The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was
> > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production and
> > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research
> > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what
> > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops
> > in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never
> > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of
> > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving
> > local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four
> > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!).
> > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and
> > considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol,
> > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable
> > option I considered was/is producer gas.
>
>If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out
>the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis.  No
>nutrients would be removed.  Wouldn't this be sustainable?

Hi David

Simply returning it - digging it back in - wouldn't work very well. 
Composting it first with other mixed materials would work much 
better. Feeding it to livestock and composting the livestock waste 
with other mixed material will work much better still and this can be 
sustainable. Also using livestock in grazing rotations followed by 
crop production works the best and is truly sustainable. This is 
called ley farming - the temporary grass pasture is called a "ley". 
See:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley

Best

Keith


>I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre?  I'm not doubting it,
>just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks.
>
> > The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation
> > for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop
> > and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last
> > years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off
> > the grid.
> >
> > So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources
> > toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a
> > common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car and
> > either flex-fuel of duel generators.
>
>If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your car with
>you have a point.  Why not just run the car on the alcohol? Cars are
>very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very dense energy
>storage.
>
>--- David
>
> > As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the
> > number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding)
> > crop every year without damaging the soil.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > */Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> >
> > i was looking through the archives trying to find something about
> > that
> > earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for
> > ethanol, or has
> > it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you can
> > digest and
> > subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step further, it
> > might be a
> > more efficient process.
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Michael Redler
> > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:51 AM
> > Subject: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability
> >
> >
> > I'm glad so see discussions about WVO (supply, sustainability and big
> > business) and methods for pressing your own oil. I always felt that
> > increasing competition for WVO in the future will make that supply
> > unsustainable. That along with the future availability of methanol
> > caused me
> > to shift my interest to ethanol as a fuel.
> >
> > Now I'm wondering if a scheme can me developed for a crop rotation
> > that
> > allows continuous alternations between oil and sugar producing
> > plants so
> > that energy independence might take on a hybrid approach. For
> > example,
> > safflower/sugar beets/soy/potatoes/etc, etc. This is just an
> > example - I'm
> > not a farmer (yet).
> >
> > Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread Sean Chadwell

Mike, et al:

Could you irrigate with wash water, as well? Wouldn't that just be
another form of returning all the by-product to the soil? 

-Sean
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 08:06 -0700, Michael Redler wrote:
> Hi David,
>  
> Going by memory, I misquoted my own post from last year.
>  
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51322.html
>  
> Sugar beets and ethanol production: According to a page on
> http://www.green-trust.org, the estimate is 1200 gallons per acre of
> land and that the 800 figure embedded in my brain is an estimate of
> average annual ethanol consumption for an automobile.
>  
> You said: "If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be
> taking out 
> the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis. No 
> nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?"
>  
> ...makes sense.
>  
> The sites I visited referred more to the prevention of parasites.
> Apparently you can get worms with a "sweet tooth". Other than that,
> there doesn't seem to be a reason to rotate.
>  
> After your message, I did a little more research and found a descent
> site on sugar beets and it seems like sugar beets are actually used as
> a rotation crop.
>  
> http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/sugarbeet.html
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Mike
>  
> 
> David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Michael Redler wrote:
> > Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
> > 
> > The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil
> degradation. I was 
> > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol
> production and 
> > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the
> research 
> > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because
> of what 
> > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three
> other crops 
> > in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that
> if I never 
> > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an
> acre of 
> > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept
> my driving 
> > local, this would work - except I could only do this once
> every four 
> > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the
> crop - agh!). 
> > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel
> and 
> > considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel,
> ethanol, 
> > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other
> viable 
> > option I considered was/is producer gas.
> 
> If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be
> taking out 
> the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by
> photosynthesis. No 
> nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?
> 
> I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre? I'm not
> doubting it, 
> just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel
> feedstocks.
> 
> > The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop
> rotation 
> > for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest
> the crop 
> > and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would
> use last 
> > years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to
> stay off 
> > the grid.
> > 
> > So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy
> sources 
> > toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll
> need a 
> > common denominator - electric storage. That means an
> electric car and 
> > either flex-fuel of duel generators.
> 
> If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your
> car with 
> you have a point. Why not just run the car on the alcohol?
> Cars are 
> very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very
> dense energy 
> storage. 
> 
> --- David
> 
> > As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To
> keep the 
> > number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best
> yielding) 
> > crop every year without damaging the soil.
> > 
> > Mike
> >
> > */Jason & Katie /* wrote:
> >
> > i was looking through the archives trying to find something
> about
> > that
> > earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for
> > ethanol, or has
> > it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you
> can
> > digest and
> > subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step
> further, it
> > might be a
> > more effici

Re: [Biofuel] New EPA Rules-digression

>Keith Addison wrote:
> > Hello Mike
> >
> >
> >>Keith,
> >> BIG SNIP
> > See what John Stauber has to say about the big enviro groups.
> > http://www.ratical.org/ratville/PRcorrupt.html
> > WAR ON TRUTH, The Secret Battle for the American Mind
>
>You know,
>
>There is a reason some of us scream "shenanigans" or foul
>upon reading some news bites. There is a PR language,
>usually somewhat prejorative, that seems to signal 'image
>manipulation'. Whenever I see it, It get's my hackles
>up, and I start checking what facts I can.

You're lucky Chip, most people don't see those signs, no warning 
bells ring. The repetition part of it lulls them, among other things. 
Well, it's not just luck. Good for you. Your Y2K survival kit is 
well-equipped.

"PR and advertising are about encapsulating idiotically simple 
messages in sugared niblets that wedge themselves in your brain like 
prions." - Misha, SANET

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

Mike, if you do it the cheap and easy way you can have biofuel 
feedstock coming out all over the place a few times a year.

If you're going to focus on biofuels crops production and yields, 
that's when it gets messy, and the soil depletion problem is the one 
you won't solve. If you farm instead of just grow crops the problem 
looks after itself, you don't need to buy anything and it just keeps 
getting better and better.

>With real farming, what Andres Yver called farming the cheap and easy
>way, for which please see the Small Farms Library at Journey to
>Forever, the possibilities for this kind of production are truly
>endless. Beyond that, a great deal of biofuel feedstock can be
>produced as by-product or co-product, in other words for free.
>
>Here's Andres's post:
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg56038.html
>Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html
Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever

Truly.

Best

Keith


>Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
>
>The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was 
>researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production 
>and began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the 
>research suggests that root crops can't be planted every year 
>because of what it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate 
>three other crops in between (four year rotation). My interpretation 
>was that if I never wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I 
>would need an acre of land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of 
>ethanol. If I kept my driving local, this would work - except I 
>could only do this once every four years (assuming I had the time 
>and energy to process the crop - agh!). So, I started looking at 
>alternating my source of biofuel and considered the possibility of 
>alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol, etc.). By the way, besides 
>biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable option I considered was/is 
>producer gas.
>
>The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation 
>for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop 
>and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last 
>years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off 
>the grid.
>
>So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources 
>toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a 
>common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car 
>and either flex-fuel of duel generators.
>
>As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the 
>number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding) 
>crop every year without damaging the soil.
>
>Mike
>
>Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>i was looking through the archives trying to find something about that
>earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for ethanol, or has
>it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you can digest and
>subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step further, it might be a
>more efficient process.
>- Original Message -
>From: Michael Redler
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:51 AM
>Subject: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability
>
>
>I'm glad so see discussions about WVO (supply, sustainability and big
>business) and methods for pressing your own oil. I always felt that
>increasing competition for WVO in the future will make that supply
>unsustainable. That along with the future availability of methanol caused me
>to shift my interest to ethanol as a fuel.
>
>Now I'm wondering if a scheme can me developed for a crop rotation that
>allows continuous alternations between oil and sugar producing plants so
>that energy independence might take on a hybrid approach. For example,
>safflower/sugar beets/soy/potatoes/etc, etc. This is just an example - I'm
>not a farmer (yet).
>
>Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

>Keith,
>
>   Most (or enough) Americans are asleep or indifferent.

Don't believe it! We were discussing it here about a week ago.

>If we had a real
>mainstream media here, that
>didn't screen out news unfavorable to the administration, especially the
>bogus wars, things would never deteriorated to the low
>level we have now.

But they did, and there were glaring signs long ago that you had to 
take urgent action to counter corporate ownership concentration of 
your media. Okay, it's understandable that such a high-intensity 
ongoing barrage of engineered opinion engineering would send "enough" 
of you to asleep "enough" of the time for everything to fall to 
pieces about your ears and you didn't even notice. Maybe that's your 
affair, or even your prerogative, but the problem is all the stuff 
Washington and Wall Street export to the rest of us, using your tax 
money (when they're not stealing it from you) and your inattention to 
do it. One thing you have to wake up to is that you're part of the 
rest of us.

It's not your prerogative not to notice it when at long last there 
are such stirrings and rumblings all about and, finally, a head of 
steam gathered that's spreading like wildfire and sweeping up 
everything else along with it in what's clearly an awakening, widely 
being commented on. It reached critical mass last August, and the 
only question now is what will constitute "enough" in this new 
picture that's emerging - will enough people wake up and take enough 
action to stop the disaster potential reaching critical mass? You're 
among the awake so please stop thinking pre-six months ago and do 
just whatever you possibly can to help spread the flames. Time to 
take heart.

By the way, there's not much doubt that the critical head of critical 
steam was built up despite the mainstream media, and though (always 
with exceptions) the mainstream media had behaved just as you say 
they're now being left with little choice but to follow along, they 
can't help getting sucked in. (I've done that to them before!) So 
what if they pretend they did it?

What if you should treat your voting system the same way? Other than 
fierce monitoring and reporting, just ignore it and get on with real 
business.

>I hardly ever watch TV news and get my info off the web.
>I continuously write my Congress people, 2 Demo senators and a Repug rep,
>and they just ignore my letters or at best I get polite form letters back.
>The Repug rep is such a strong, mindless, Bush backer, it makes me sick. The
>Demos are equally
>bad in that they say there's a better way than impeaching Bush/Cheney. I
>wish I knew
>what that was. Maybe a firing squad? I feel BushCo is out of control but the
>impotent Congress
>is afraid, for whatever reason, to take the two idiots on. Yeah, there are a
>couple exceptions, like
>Sen. Feingold and the two Demos that've openly backed him. Kucinich (Rep,
>OH, D) has had Bush's number way
>ahead of his colleagues. The polls show Bush and Cheney are way down in
>public opinion. Maybe
>the two are desperate to do more of their nasty deeds before common sense
>again prevails here. There's no telling
>what two thugs like them will do to stay in power. Another 9/11? I would not
>count that out as they
>have no morals whatsoever.
>
>  So we have here a number of problems:
>
>A too trusting people who have been divided by wedge issues
>Disinformation on the TV news. 9/11 was our Night of Broken Glass & new
>Pearl Harbor
>Corporate financed candidates
>Hackable voting machines that can swing an election through built-in "back
>doors" in the tabulating PCs. Naturally biased to the Repugs
>A weak, corrupt, and divided Congress
>An administration that is totally corrupt, ruthless, and corporate
>controlled.
>An insanely bloated military budget that is way beyond that necessary to
>"protect" us.

Yea verily. The missing bit, however:

> > It's the time of the Other Superpower, and the powers-that-be are
> > seeing the signs:
> >
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg58869.html
> > [Biofuel] A global public opinion survey shows people losing faith in
> > governments
> > 16 Dec 2005
> > ... "an alarming picture of declining levels of trust". (Davos)
> >
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg58999.html
> > [Biofuel] New Surveys Show That Big Business Has a P.R. Problem
> > New York Times, December 9, 2005
> > "More than ever, Americans do not trust business or the people who run it."

That was two months ago, lots more noise since then.

Put your vote where it hurts - down the toilet.

(Is that a good bumper sticker? LOL!)

>Pray for World Peace, D. Mindock

Indeed, for peace. Eventually, maybe, after much travail. But up till 
now it's been only a dream, now it could be within reach.

These things are useful, IMHO:

http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/sid.2/bookid.5/sec.1/
Sun Tzu : On the Art of War

http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.ht

Re: [Biofuel] Garrison Keillor on Bush II




Doug,
I suppose there could be 
some benefits of cell phone tracking. But it always seem that 
privacy
has to be forked over. 
Making your cell phone trackable should be a user
option, not mandatory. The 
same for the black boxes in cars that allow tracking.
Everything is being done to 
"protect" us or the children. The internet/web is the
last bastion of free, 
unfiltered news. How the corporate powers must hate that.
So what better way to get 
rid of it than to come up with protecting the children
from porn, stop internet 
gambling, etc. It will be under the guise of keeping
us from harming each other 
or ourselves or maybe to make life harder for those terrorists. 
And likely, most folks will 
buy it. Enough anyway
to get the legislation 
passed. Already our emails, phone calls 
are being monitored
 by the CIA/FBI/NSA. 
If BushCo wants any of us in limbo, all they have to use
is the phrase "suspected 
enemy combatant" and off we go, off to rot in some
jail in Poland, Romania, 
etc. This is the result of the doublespeak named Patriot Act,
another shameful act of the 
lunatics running our government. It seems that our
gov won't rest until it has complete 
control of our lives, from womb to tomb. 
   To change the 
subject slightly, we now have the Codex 
Alimentarius
or http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/PHARMACEUTICAL_BUSINESS/health_movement_against_codex/index.htm
to contend with. As a 
result of this document, we here in the USA will have
our current open access to 
herbs, vitamins, supplements, essential oils, etc., severely
restricted. For example, 
vit C will be limited to 90mg max size. Many supplements
will simply disappear 
altogether. Herbs too. I use DHEA, 25mg a day. It really
keeps my energy level up. 
It will become a prescription item and cost many times
more than I now pay. Plus 
the cost of the doctor's time.  All of this crap will be to 
"protect" us from harming 
ourselves. Never mind that prescription drugs kill 100,000+
people every year here in the 
USA but herbs, 
vitamins, supplements, and essential oils kill
no one. The push is to make us dependent 
on prescription drugs only as a way
to better health, an impossibility. We 
here in the USA are bombarded with BS about
how dangerous vit C is and how vit E is 
not at all helpful and could cause problems. Big Pharma
is demonizing non-patentable natural 
remedies, softening us up for the day the 
shelves at health 
food 
stores become largely bare. Our rollover media loves to propagate the results of bogus science 
sponsored
by you-know-who. They do this without 
checking to see if the study was valid or not. If it is sensational, 
it
gets printed. To print that vit E is not 
useful or may even be harmful is hard to resist, even
if it might not be true. 
Newspapers seem to be in envy of the tabloids. Not many 
bother
to investigate anything that's important. 

BTW, I believe that Europe and Australia 
are already "harmonized" to the Codex. Canada too?
Peace, D. Mindock
 
 
> 
Cell phones can already be tracked by signal. Not sure it helps in a 
heart> attack but my phone tells where I am if asked. Cell phones can be 
used as> "guidance" to target.> > Took an extra 2 or 3 
years to get digital phones on the market as the boss> needed the ability 
to locate/listen before their release.> > Your home is no 
sanctuary, it can be entered on many pretexts without papers> (Suspicion 
of drugs, illegal firearms, illegal guns and a few others). Of> recent 
times even more so as the list has been increased. Look at your home> as 
a place where you can be got, a place where you must be most of the 
time,> a place where you enjoy it with a finance Co that needs to know 
much about> your life, a place known to be your returning point, a place 
that holds the> basis for your license to drive, to pay taxes, to vote, 
your cubicle of/for> life.> > Doug> > - 
Original Message - > From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> To: > Sent: Monday, April 10, 
2006 1:50 PM> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: Garrison Keillor on Bush 
II> > >> This is not a good trend. It could lead to 
people's home being inspected> for>> all>> sorts of 
things like illegal satellite receivers, drugs, eating organic> 
meat>> vs the>> hormone and pesticide laden USDA meat, 
non-GMO food, etc. I've read that>> sooner or later all cars will have 
black boxes which allows their> tracking.>> I think>> 
cell phones are to be that way too. Both are for your "protection" 
of>> course. If>> I get anymore protected, I will puke. Our 
right to privacy is seen as a>> threat by>> the 
neo-cons.>> Peace, D. Mindock - Original 
Message - >> From: "Mike McGinness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>> To: >> Sent: Saturday, April 
08, 2006 11:43 PM>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: Garrison Keillor 
on Bush II>> > You got it Gary, they have 
adopted the Bush policy of pre-emptive> strikes>> > 
by>> > walking into the Texas b

Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]

2006-04-10 Thread Zeke Yewdall

What about the oceans?  I know that's not the same as hydroponics, but
they are a sustainable ecosystem which do not depend on soil.  The
organic matter just floats around in the water.  Now, I admit that
trying to bring it onto land, and grow something like tomatoes instead
of kelp, is not the same.  But is does seem that we can't just
arbritrarily dismiss non-soil growing as inherently unsustainable,
when 3/4'ths of our plant has been doing this for billions of years.

Zeke

On 4/8/06, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Peter
>
> >Hi Keith,
> >
> >I completely agree.  I was just thinking about the
> >poor guy who had to haul 5-gallon buckets of soil up
> >to the top of his roof.
>
> :-) But just think of all the great veggies he'd haul down again,
> with gravity on his side!
>
> >If you had absolutely no
> >other choice( say you lived in a high rise and just
> >had a little window space) the system I described is
> >the friendliest potted-plant system I could come up
> >with.
>
> Could be. I mentioned growing stuff in windows in a tiny 19th-floor
> apartment, in soil with a worm bin under the sink, that worked well.
> People's wives and parents don't always like the worms though, maybe
> your system can be more friendly.
>
> >Growing and sustaining a plot of soil is
> >definitely a better way to go.  When the first
> >Europeans arrived in the eastern Americas 500 years
> >ago, the locals showed them how to grow corn - take a
> >little fish, stick it in the ground next to the corn
> >seed, and watch the corn take off.  Sustaining the
> >soil is at the root of everything, literally.
>
> Yea verily. Except all evil! LOL! As to your next post...
>
> All best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Peter
> > >
> > > >There really is a range of options available; the
> > > main
> > > >thing is to adapt to your own unique circumstances
> > > >while using as little energy and material as
> > > possible.
> > > > I like the idea of the guy growing in an urban
> > > >wasteland - real urban renewal, that is.
> > >
> > > Urban wastelands the world over are riddled with
> > > city farms and
> > > greening projects these days, no need to go
> > > wrong-tech about it. Lots
> > > here:
> > >
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/cityfarm.html
> > > City farms
> > >
> > > This is quite a nice project:
> > >
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con-mexico.html
> > > Organic food production in the slums of Mexico City
> > >
> > > >With drip tubing and very well aerated soil (use
> > > >50-75% non-absorbant material; perlite or coconut
> > > >husks can be used) you can grow plants in fairly
> > > small
> > > >containers with daily watering and minimal effort
> > > >(drip tubing is really optional); note that in this
> > > >case you have to continually add nutrients to the
> > > >water since there is little available in the soil
> > > >material.  This is a completely different prospect
> > > >from a farmer who rotates crops and continually
> > > adds
> > > >manure/seaweed to fallow fields, etc.  If you are
> > > >stuck in a city with no other options, the above
> > > >strategy minimizes your use of soil, and you don't
> > > >have to bother will all that hydro equipment.  The
> > > >planting mix can be recycled crop after crop, as
> > > well,
> > > >with maybe a little fresh slow-release organic soil
> > > >amendment now and then.
> > >
> > > Why minimise the use of soil? Use soil, make
> > > compost, have great
> > > crops and no problems.
> > >
> > > >It all comes down to nutrients - using organic
> > > >fertilizers is the way to go.
> > >
> > > Sorry to disagree, but nutrients aren't the way to
> > > go, whatever the
> > > source. Do it organically and you never have to
> > > bother about
> > > nutrients. It makes little difference if the
> > > nutrients are "organic"
> > > or not, nutrient feeding is chemical growing, not
> > > organics. You
> > > wouldn't expect a guy lying in a hospital bed being
> > > fed a nutrient
> > > drip to have vibrant health and an invulnerable
> > > immune system either.
> > >
> > > >You can go to your
> > > >garden store and buy a bag of earthworm casings, a
> > > bag
> > > >of fish meal and a bag of kelp, mix this up in a
> > > huge
> > > >tank of water, and use that for watering.
> > > Experiment
> > > >with the concentrations to see what works best;
> > > often
> > > >people use way more fertilizer then they need to,
> > > >which is a waste.  Pretty simple, cheap and
> > > organic.
> > >
> > > Only in origin. Organic growing is a system, what it
> > > boils down to is
> > > feeding the soil, not the plant. If the soil is
> > > healthy the plants
> > > look after themselves, much better than you ever
> > > can. So-called
> > > "fertilisers" aren't fertilisers, they're just plant
> > > nutrients.
> > > Organic fertiliser is compost, it's just about the
> > > only thing that
> > > will reliably fertilise the soil. And it's very easy
> > > to make,

Re: [Biofuel] BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials of lyingabout 9/11

Okeedokee.     I'm not into putting a lot of energy into this argument. Suffice to say that I haven't seen a compelling argument to change my opinion - even after visiting http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm.     Mike  "Gary L. Green" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Bull pucky, mate.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htmHave a look. When you figure in the angle of the supposed snipers nest there is just no way.That dog don't hunt.I collected a variety of Kennedy assassination information from so many sources. Most of it destroyed when my hard drive got nuked. It's an addictive subject. The smoking gun always just seems a little bit out of reach. If only I can put the facts
 together just right.I finally had to just quit. It was taking over my life.On 10Apr, 2006, at 9:33 PM, Michael Redler wrote:> However, if you simply move the seat where it belonged and > positioned Connolly's body correctly, there is an excellent chance > for the "magic bullet" to have passed through Kennedy and Connolly > with a straight line trajectory___
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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

Hi David,     Going by memory, I misquoted my own post from last year.     http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51322.html     Sugar beets and ethanol production: According to a page on http://www.green-trust.org, the estimate is 1200 gallons per acre of land and that the 800 figure embedded in my brain is an estimate of average annual ethanol consumption for an automobile.     You said: "If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis. No nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?"     ...makes sense.     The sites I visited referred more to the
 prevention of parasites. Apparently you can get worms with a "sweet tooth". Other than that, there doesn't seem to be a reason to rotate.     After your message, I did a little more research and found a descent site on sugar beets and it seems like sugar beets are actually used as a rotation crop.     http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/sugarbeet.html     Thanks,     Mike     David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Michael Redler wrote:> Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.> > The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production
 and > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops > in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving > local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!). > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and > considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol, > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable > option I considered was/is producer gas.If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out
 the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis. No nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre? I'm not doubting it, just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks.> The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation > for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop > and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last > years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off > the grid.> > So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources > toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a > common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car and > either flex-fuel of duel generators.If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your car with
 you have a point. Why not just run the car on the alcohol? Cars are very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very dense energy storage. --- David> As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the > number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding) > crop every year without damaging the soil.> > Mike>> */Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>> i was looking through the archives trying to find something about> that> earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for> ethanol, or has> it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you can> digest and> subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step further, it> might be a> more efficient process.> - Original Message -> From: Michael Redler> To:
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:51 AM> Subject: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability>>> I'm glad so see discussions about WVO (supply, sustainability and big> business) and methods for pressing your own oil. I always felt that> increasing competition for WVO in the future will make that supply> unsustainable. That along with the future availability of methanol> caused me> to shift my interest to ethanol as a fuel.>> Now I'm wondering if a scheme can me developed for a crop rotation> that> allows continuous alternations between oil and sugar producing> plants so> that energy independence might take on a hybrid approach. For> example,> safflower/sugar beets/soy/potatoes/etc, etc. This is just an> example - I'm> not a farmer (yet).>> Mike___
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Re: [Biofuel] BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials of lyingabout 9/11

Bull pucky, mate.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

Have a look.  When you figure in the angle of the supposed snipers  
nest there is just no way.

That dog don't hunt.

I collected a variety of Kennedy assassination information from so  
many sources.  Most of it destroyed when my hard drive got nuked.   
It's an addictive subject.  The smoking gun always just seems a  
little bit out of reach.  If only I can put the facts together just  
right.

I  finally had to just quit.  It was taking over my life.

On  10Apr, 2006, at 9:33 PM, Michael Redler wrote:

> However, if you simply move the seat where it belonged and  
> positioned Connolly's body correctly, there is an excellent chance  
> for the "magic bullet" to have passed through Kennedy and Connolly  
> with a straight line trajectory

___
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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

If it didn't work in the 60's with the same families at the helm why will it
work in Iran or Iraq??? 50 + million people sleeping??? Wake UP.

How's about private organization like this setting up an extra to elections
where people can actually say and confirm on a separate network who they
voted for. Not sure if possible but the world at large waits a solution.

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/operation_phoenix.htm

Doug
- Original Message - 
From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]


> Keith,
>
>Most (or enough) Americans are asleep or indifferent. If we had a real
> mainstream media here, that
> didn't screen out news unfavorable to the administration, especially the
> bogus wars, things would never deteriorated to the low
> level we have now.  I hardly ever watch TV news and get my info off the
web.
> I continuously write my Congress people, 2 Demo senators and a Repug rep,
> and they just ignore my letters or at best I get polite form letters back.
> The Repug rep is such a strong, mindless, Bush backer, it makes me sick.
The
> Demos are equally
> bad in that they say there's a better way than impeaching Bush/Cheney. I
> wish I knew
> what that was. Maybe a firing squad? I feel BushCo is out of control but
the
> impotent Congress
> is afraid, for whatever reason, to take the two idiots on. Yeah, there are
a
> couple exceptions, like
> Sen. Feingold and the two Demos that've openly backed him. Kucinich (Rep,
> OH, D) has had Bush's number way
> ahead of his colleagues. The polls show Bush and Cheney are way down in
> public opinion. Maybe
> the two are desperate to do more of their nasty deeds before common sense
> again prevails here. There's no telling
> what two thugs like them will do to stay in power. Another 9/11? I would
not
> count that out as they
> have no morals whatsoever.
>
>   So we have here a number of problems:
>
> A too trusting people who have been divided by wedge issues
> Disinformation on the TV news. 9/11 was our Night of Broken Glass & new
> Pearl Harbor
> Corporate financed candidates
> Hackable voting machines that can swing an election through built-in "back
> doors" in the tabulating PCs. Naturally biased to the Repugs
> A weak, corrupt, and divided Congress
> An administration that is totally corrupt, ruthless, and corporate
> controlled.
> An insanely bloated military budget that is way beyond that necessary to
> "protect" us.
>
> Pray for World Peace, D. Mindock
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]
>
>
> > I've been posting stuff on this here for months, so have a few
> > others, very few people have taken any notice.
> >
> > It is utterly unbelievable that Americans, only now so belatedly
> > waking up with growing fury at how they were lied to and manipulated
> > on the road to the Iraq debacle are actually swallowing the exact
> > same set of lies and manipulations in order to do the same or worse
> > in Iran.
> >
> > What the hell is the matter with you people??? What are you going to
> > do about it? Vote??? Good God, WAKE UP!!!
> >
> > Stop it happening!
> >
> > Now!
> >
> > Damn, thank heavens for Seymour Hersh.
> >
> > "Hopefully" you say Mike:
> >
> >>Let's all pray that reason and sanity prevail once again.
> >>
> >>Best wishes for world peace,
> >
> > With all due respect it'll take a little more than hopes prayers and
> > wishes. Do it! Put a stop to your mad dogs.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >>Hakan,
> >>
> >>Agreed. The sh-t would hit the fan. Hopefully enough reason and sanity
> >>will
> >>eventually prevail like it did during the cold war (we survived it
> >>somehow). Of
> >>course it may have been MAD (a form of insanity called Mutually Assured
> >>Destruction, the idea that no one wins, except by not fighting or
starting
> >>a
> >>nuclear war), that actually saved us during the cold war.
> >>
> >>What I find to be so ludicrous (silly, ridiculous) is that if  IRAN
> >>really wanted
> >>to Nuke Israel or the USA they would not need a real nuclear weapon, and
> >>they
> >>would have done it already with a dirty nuclear weapon since they
already
> >>have
> >>nuclear power plants with uranium.
> >>
> >>I suspect they have not done so, even if they wanted to, because
> >>they know if they
> >>did the US or Israel would level Iran in retaliation, probably with
nukes.
> >>
> >>The really scary part,  I fear, is that even if the US does back
> >>down, Israel will
> >>still not allow Iran to make nuclear bombs and therefore will not
> >>back down. So,
> >>anyway you look at it, if Iran does not back off on the nuclear
> >>issue we will all
> >>be in deep sh-t.
> >>
> >>What also concerns me is that if the US attacks Iran, North Korea
> >>will probably
> >>freak out and go nuts since they would be

Re: [Biofuel] BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials oflyingabout 9/11

> Another unanswered question: why were the massive steel beams quickly
> gathered up and
> ship off for scrap? Is it because the beams might've shown that they were
> torn apart by

If you have been down to ground Zero you will notice there is no room to
store the debris from a fraction of one tower let alone keep all the steel
for "investigation". Does the steel get stored at whose cost while they are
trying to locate people? I personally would not even look at the steel
other than a hindrance to rescue work and get it out of there as fast as I
could to ease the rescue congestion work.

> massive explosive charges? BTW, it's believed that the charges were set
off
> just as the floor
> above was just about to hit the floor below. Then this sequence was
repeated
> all the way down
> to the last floor. Doing this would create the nice domino effect and make
> it appear that each
> floor was being crushed by the weight of the floors above. It would make a
> free fall effect and
> not cause the building to go beyond its footprint. Remember how quickly
the
> towers
> collapsed? In 15 seconds the entire tower was down after the initial
> charges were set off.

So the aircraft was not a massive explosive device?? Had no effect on the
structure at all?? did not change any of the steel characteristics?? It was
all done with carefully placed explosives. I seem to remember the top floors
staying intact for several seconds and the lower floors where impact
occurred
collapsing first? This if charges were laid would mean that the plane would
need to be upon the exact floor of the explosives not one floor above or
below other wise the whole charge progression would be out of time
sequence???

> They fell down at free fall velocity, or close to it.
> I believe there were puffs of smoke that appeared just as the collapse
> began.

Powder coatings and plaster would more than account for the puffs of
smoke/dust as each section went.

> And yep, Building 7, never hit, did go down in the free fall way, right
into
> its
> footprint. If you have ever seen demolition of tall buildings, this is how
> the pros
> do it. Those charges were pre-set by people who were not amateurs. The
> sequential timing
> of the charges was perfect. All three buildings fell exactly in the same
> way.

Have you looked at sites where other buildings have fallen through bad
design? There are hundreds, some swaying before they collapsed and some
falling in on themselves to fill their own foot print. ( They, collapsing
buildings, actually fill quite a bit more than their footprint as did the
towers).

On the other hand, some place some where there is the emanation of a bad
smell about the whole affair. Too many things have been covered up, not all
was done that could, and why was the 5 sided being strengthened? Why hit in
the vulnerable places, insider trading perhaps???

Who would come forth as an architect and say "Well I calculated wrongly and
thus the towers could not put up with the impact of - - - - - - - - and due
to this minor error on my part so many lives are lost" I think as is the
norm with human preservation from Sloan to the ground cover up what you can,
deny the rest or blame some one else.

Keep in mind the bungles architects have made and then ask if the oxygen
tanks were factored in and all the rest? Was a B-52 in-air fueller used to
determine the impact, no. So why now use the scenario of a smaller plane as
the basis for impact?? Why was not the biggest plane used, why was not a
nuclear blast used at a distance for theoretical purposes?

The more I study logic, and theory the more broader it gets and the more it
becomes intangible, a lot of loose ends out there.

> Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
> > And the towers were designed for impact by large aircraft.
> > I read an interview with the architect - he said the buildings were
> > designed to withstand a hot from the planes of the time the towers were
> > built; these planes were smaller and carried
> > less fuel.  In typical list fashion, I don't rememebr the source, but I
> > think it was The New Yorker.
> >
> > Mike McGinness wrote:
> >
> >> "D. Mindock" wrote:
> >>
> >>>  Mike,You are overlooking that Building 7, not hit by any plane,
> >>> collapsed in the same controlled manner as the towers.
> >>
> >> OK, I will have to read up on building 7.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Also the momentum energy of the planes would've been spread over a
> >>> couple hundred feet. The stoppage wasnot instantaneous.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I would somewhat disagree on this point as the nose of the plane would
> >> have hit first and focused the most intense "Impulse" force in the
> >> first second of impact. I agree that not all the energy was released
> >> in the first second, perhaps spread out over 4 to 5 seconds and spread
> >> out further as the wings hit, but still I would expect at least 50% of
> >> the energy to have converted to heat in a focused area between the
> >> nose of the plane and the part of th

Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

2006-04-10 Thread David Miller

Michael Redler wrote:
> Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith.
>  
> The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was 
> researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production and 
> began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research 
> suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what 
> it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops 
> in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never 
> wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of 
> land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving 
> local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four 
> years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!). 
> So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and 
> considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol, 
> etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable 
> option I considered was/is producer gas.

If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be taking out 
the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis.  No 
nutrients would be removed.  Wouldn't this be sustainable?

I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre?  I'm not doubting it, 
just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel feedstocks.

> The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation 
> for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop 
> and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last 
> years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off 
> the grid.
>  
> So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources 
> toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a 
> common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car and 
> either flex-fuel of duel generators.

If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your car with 
you have a point.  Why not just run the car on the alcohol? Cars are 
very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very dense energy 
storage. 

--- David

> As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the 
> number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding) 
> crop every year without damaging the soil.
>  
> Mike
>
> */Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> i was looking through the archives trying to find something about
> that
> earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for
> ethanol, or has
> it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you can
> digest and
> subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step further, it
> might be a
> more efficient process.
> - Original Message -
> From: Michael Redler
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:51 AM
> Subject: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability
>
>
> I'm glad so see discussions about WVO (supply, sustainability and big
> business) and methods for pressing your own oil. I always felt that
> increasing competition for WVO in the future will make that supply
> unsustainable. That along with the future availability of methanol
> caused me
> to shift my interest to ethanol as a fuel.
>
> Now I'm wondering if a scheme can me developed for a crop rotation
> that
> allows continuous alternations between oil and sugar producing
> plants so
> that energy independence might take on a hybrid approach. For
> example,
> safflower/sugar beets/soy/potatoes/etc, etc. This is just an
> example - I'm
> not a farmer (yet).
>
> Mike
>
> 
>
> ___
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>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>   


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Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

ARE the same fat cat.On  10Apr, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Gary L. Green wrote:People have also got to quit voting for who ever puts on the best dog and pony show at election time.  Democraps & Republickends and the same fat cat, just a different color.  We need to get independents, greens and others in.  As long as we keep voting for corporate dupes we're dead.Scary but Nader is looking better all the time.On  10Apr, 2006, at 7:58 PM, D. Mindock wrote:I continuously write my Congress people, 2 Demo senators and a Repug rep, and they just ignore my letters ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___
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Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials of lyingabout 9/11

What about the Pentagon? I have not seen any footage of a plane, no witnesses who saw a plane, no debris from a passenger plane or a manifest of passengers for the flight that was supposed to have crashed into the Pentagon. The Warren Commission was a joke. However, if you simply move the seat where it belonged and positioned Connolly's body correctly, there is an excellent chance for the "magic bullet" to have passed through Kennedy and Connolly with a straight line trajectory (not that I want to fan the flames or anything). I have no theory about the head shot though. "Back and to the left. Back and to the left." Mike "Gary L. Green" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I hear they are going to be reconvening the Warren Commission
again. Spector is once again going to show that it was a single bullet that did the whole thing. They will have the theoretical physics to prove it too. On 10Apr, 2006, at 1:34 PM, D. Mindock wrote:Another unanswered question: why were the massive steel beams quickly gathered up and ship off for scrap? Is it because the beams might've shown that they were torn
apart by massive explosive charges? etc___
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Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

People have also got to quit voting for who ever puts on the best dog and pony show at election time.  Democraps & Republickends and the same fat cat, just a different color.  We need to get independents, greens and others in.  As long as we keep voting for corporate dupes we're dead.Scary but Nader is looking better all the time.On  10Apr, 2006, at 7:58 PM, D. Mindock wrote:I continuously write my Congress people, 2 Demo senators and a Repug rep,  and they just ignore my letters ___
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Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability

Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith. The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil degradation. I was researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol production and began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the research suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because of what it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three other crops in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that if I never wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an acre of land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept my driving local, this would work - except I could only do this once every four years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the crop - agh!). So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel and considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, ethanol, etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other viable option I
considered was/is producer gas. The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop rotation for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest the crop and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would use last years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to stay off the grid. So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy sources toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll need a common denominator - electric storage. That means an electric car and either flex-fuel of duel generators. As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To keep the number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best yielding) crop every year without damaging the soil. MikeJason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: i was looking through the archives trying to find something about that earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for ethanol, or has it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you can digest and subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step further, it might be a more efficient process.- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:51 AMSubject: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainabilityI'm glad so see discussions about WVO (supply, sustainability and big business) and methods for pressing your own oil. I always felt that increasing competition for WVO in the future will make that supply unsustainable. That along with the future availability of methanol caused me to shift my interest to ethanol as a fuel.Now I'm
wondering if a scheme can me developed for a crop rotation that allows continuous alternations between oil and sugar producing plants so that energy independence might take on a hybrid approach. For example, safflower/sugar beets/soy/potatoes/etc, etc. This is just an example - I'm not a farmer (yet).Mike___
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Re: [Biofuel] New EPA Rules-digression

2006-04-10 Thread Chip Mefford

Keith Addison wrote:
> Hello Mike
> 
> 
>>Keith,
>> BIG SNIP
> See what John Stauber has to say about the big enviro groups.
> http://www.ratical.org/ratville/PRcorrupt.html
> WAR ON TRUTH, The Secret Battle for the American Mind

You know,

There is a reason some of us scream "shenanigans" or foul
upon reading some news bites. There is a PR language,
usually somewhat prejorative, that seems to signal 'image
manipulation'. Whenever I see it, It get's my hackles
up, and I start checking what facts I can.

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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

Keith,

   Most (or enough) Americans are asleep or indifferent. If we had a real 
mainstream media here, that
didn't screen out news unfavorable to the administration, especially the 
bogus wars, things would never deteriorated to the low
level we have now.  I hardly ever watch TV news and get my info off the web. 
I continuously write my Congress people, 2 Demo senators and a Repug rep, 
and they just ignore my letters or at best I get polite form letters back.
The Repug rep is such a strong, mindless, Bush backer, it makes me sick. The 
Demos are equally
bad in that they say there's a better way than impeaching Bush/Cheney. I 
wish I knew
what that was. Maybe a firing squad? I feel BushCo is out of control but the 
impotent Congress
is afraid, for whatever reason, to take the two idiots on. Yeah, there are a 
couple exceptions, like
Sen. Feingold and the two Demos that've openly backed him. Kucinich (Rep, 
OH, D) has had Bush's number way
ahead of his colleagues. The polls show Bush and Cheney are way down in 
public opinion. Maybe
the two are desperate to do more of their nasty deeds before common sense 
again prevails here. There's no telling
what two thugs like them will do to stay in power. Another 9/11? I would not 
count that out as they
have no morals whatsoever.

  So we have here a number of problems:

A too trusting people who have been divided by wedge issues
Disinformation on the TV news. 9/11 was our Night of Broken Glass & new 
Pearl Harbor
Corporate financed candidates
Hackable voting machines that can swing an election through built-in "back 
doors" in the tabulating PCs. Naturally biased to the Repugs
A weak, corrupt, and divided Congress
An administration that is totally corrupt, ruthless, and corporate 
controlled.
An insanely bloated military budget that is way beyond that necessary to 
"protect" us.

Pray for World Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]

> I've been posting stuff on this here for months, so have a few
> others, very few people have taken any notice.
>
> It is utterly unbelievable that Americans, only now so belatedly
> waking up with growing fury at how they were lied to and manipulated
> on the road to the Iraq debacle are actually swallowing the exact
> same set of lies and manipulations in order to do the same or worse
> in Iran.
>
> What the hell is the matter with you people??? What are you going to
> do about it? Vote??? Good God, WAKE UP!!!
>
> Stop it happening!
>
> Now!
>
> Damn, thank heavens for Seymour Hersh.
>
> "Hopefully" you say Mike:
>
>>Let's all pray that reason and sanity prevail once again.
>>
>>Best wishes for world peace,
>
> With all due respect it'll take a little more than hopes prayers and
> wishes. Do it! Put a stop to your mad dogs.
>
> Keith
>
>
>>Hakan,
>>
>>Agreed. The sh-t would hit the fan. Hopefully enough reason and sanity 
>>will
>>eventually prevail like it did during the cold war (we survived it
>>somehow). Of
>>course it may have been MAD (a form of insanity called Mutually Assured
>>Destruction, the idea that no one wins, except by not fighting or starting 
>>a
>>nuclear war), that actually saved us during the cold war.
>>
>>What I find to be so ludicrous (silly, ridiculous) is that if  IRAN
>>really wanted
>>to Nuke Israel or the USA they would not need a real nuclear weapon, and 
>>they
>>would have done it already with a dirty nuclear weapon since they already 
>>have
>>nuclear power plants with uranium.
>>
>>I suspect they have not done so, even if they wanted to, because
>>they know if they
>>did the US or Israel would level Iran in retaliation, probably with nukes.
>>
>>The really scary part,  I fear, is that even if the US does back
>>down, Israel will
>>still not allow Iran to make nuclear bombs and therefore will not
>>back down. So,
>>anyway you look at it, if Iran does not back off on the nuclear
>>issue we will all
>>be in deep sh-t.
>>
>>What also concerns me is that if the US attacks Iran, North Korea
>>will probably
>>freak out and go nuts since they would believe they were next. I have 
>>heard no
>>mention of this yet in the news.
>>
>>Let's all pray that reason and sanity prevail once again.
>>
>>Best wishes for world peace,
>>
>>Mike McGinness
>>
>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>
>> > Mike,
>> >
>> > As a foreigner and hearing Bush preparing for attacks on Iran, I
>> > sometimes have a very short moment of wishing him doing it, because
>> > it would be so stupid and probably finish him. Then I think about my
>> > American friends with my positive experiences from US and wish
>> > strongly that he would be stopped. If US attack Iran, then we would
>> > rapidly understand what the expression "the sh-t hits the fan" means.
>> > The global consequences for US would be enormously negative.
>> >
>> > Hakan
>> >
>> > At 06:16 09/04/2006, you wrote:
>> > >Reading t

Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: Garrison Keillor on Bush II

Cell phones can already be tracked by signal. Not sure it helps in a heart
attack but my phone tells where I am if asked. Cell phones can be used as
"guidance" to target.

Took an extra 2 or 3 years to get digital phones on the market as the boss
needed the ability to locate/listen before their release.

Your home is no sanctuary, it can be entered on many pretexts without papers
(Suspicion of drugs, illegal firearms, illegal guns and a few others). Of
recent times even more so as the list has been increased. Look at your home
as a place where you can be got, a place where you must be most of the time,
a place where you enjoy it with a finance Co that needs to know much about
your life, a place known to be your returning point, a place that holds the
basis for your license to drive, to pay taxes, to vote, your cubicle of/for
life.

Doug

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: Garrison Keillor on Bush II


> This is not a good trend. It could lead to people's home being inspected
for
> all
> sorts of things like illegal satellite receivers, drugs, eating organic
meat
> vs the
> hormone and pesticide laden USDA meat, non-GMO food, etc. I've read that
> sooner or later all cars will have black boxes which allows their
tracking.
> I think
> cell phones are to be that way too. Both are for your "protection" of
> course. If
> I get anymore protected, I will puke. Our right to privacy is seen as a
> threat by
> the neo-cons.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike McGinness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: Garrison Keillor on Bush II
>
>
> > You got it Gary, they have adopted the Bush policy of pre-emptive
strikes
> > by
> > walking into the Texas bars and looking for and arresting people who are
> > over the
> > legal blood alcohol limit for driving before they leave and get on the
> > road. They
> > jail them for public intoxication.
> >
> > PreCrime is now a fact here in the great State of Texas! Actually I
heard
> > there
> > was enough political backlash that they are now rethinking their
position
> > on
> > Pre-Crime here in Texas. Of course the DEA has been into PreCrime for
> > years now,
> > guilty until proven innocent, another Bush I and II legacy.
> >
> > Lucky for me my only real vice is eating healthy, raw organic
vegetables.
> >
> > Mike McGinness
> >
> > "Gary L. Green" wrote:
> >
> >> Speaking of beer, and I was, ... Mike, I read they are going into
> >> bars and arresting people for being drunk.  Pre-crime.  I never
> >> thought I'd see it in my life time.
> >>
> >> On  09Apr, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Mike McGinness wrote:
> >>
> >> > However, this Texan would rather see him sent to Iraq to fight his
> >> > own war. We don't need him back in Texas, and we can't leave him in
> >> > Washington either. By the way I voted against the republicans and
> >> > the Bushes since 1990, so don't blaim me.
> >> >
> >> > Mike McGinness
> >>
> >> __
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
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> > messages):
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>
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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: [IP] Is the US preparing to bomb Iran?]