date:20060418

Hello Kim

Greetings,
I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well.

I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and 
dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with you read 
quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to backpedal 
her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of gravity and pedals.

I did say I was in favor of colonizing the stars, not the colonizing 
that happened in past history and is happening today by the 
corporate world.

Um, sorry, not so. In fact you were also criticised for the 
colonising the stars bit, and you ignored that too. But for a lot of 
forbearance you could have got the boot just for that, and much 
besides. You should read the list rules again. They're there for a 
reason. It reached a stage here where the list would not have 
survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, 
we didn't just make them up. They had to be put into a form that 
people could be referred to and told to read and comply with when 
they joined. If not no list any more long ago already.

A major reason for it was to put a stop to this kind of vanishing act 
that denialists of all stripes like to pull with what they said 
yesterday. You're not a denialist? But you walk the walk. The rules 
are all about integrity. Please go and read them.
http://snipurl.com/mx7r

I do find good in many bad situations.  Do I wish that certain 
changes had come about in a more humane manner, of course.  Part of 
getting over hatred is seeing that even though you hated a 
situation, some personal good came from it.  Hatred is bad for the 
person who hates, not the person who is hated.

Morally and spiritually, indeed so. Practically, well, what will you 
say, Kim? At least the victims were pure of heart when they got 
slaughtered so it was a Good Thing for them, they didn't get the 
chance to pollute their spirits with negative feelings like hatred 
afterwards? Only a pessimistic person who sees no hope for humanity 
and knows nothing about history could disagree, eh? Sure, you didn't 
say that, but it's not far from what you did say, which you're now 
trying to sweep under the corner of the carpet, as usual. That's 
right, I'm going to unsweep it a little, did you think I wouldn't? 
You think some strange things. What made you think I wouldn't check 
the snopes reference you posted even if you didn't? Denialists don't 
do metaphor either, they say I didn't say that!

By distancing

Hm.

and looking for good, one can overcome hatred of even a whole race.

Hating a whole race, my word.

To say that by finding good in a situation that you condoned the 
original sin is nonsense.

It might be. If you use the good that you look for to distract from 
the original sin it might not be such nonsense. If you set out in 
search of a good in order to use it for that purpose it'd be even 
less nonsense. And when you use the perceived good to disappear the 
original sin altogether it's not nonsense at all.

Perceived good:

[Kim] For that matter, I do believe that Native women have more rights
now than they had when they were property of the men in their families.

Isn't that pretty much what the US military says when they succeed in 
liberating a village only they had to kill most of the villagers and 
bomb all the buildings first, but hey, at least they're free, it's 
the only way to make omelettes, getting bombed is almost as good for 
you as getting colonised.

That would be like saying a black person who looking at the 
situation in Africa and counting his blessings that his family is in 
America, condoned the slavery that brought his family to America.

I think a lot of Africans would object to that view, with reason. Do 
you think that's what the blacks in New Orleans who were on TV after 
Hurricane Katrina were thinking and it made them feel all warm and 
cosy inside, who needs a bus ticket? You had a different view of them 
at the time, and it's part and parcel of the current consignment.

Taking a balance view and learning to not hate for the past by 
finding good in it should not be the antithesis to a sustainable 
world.

Indeed it's not, but that's not the same as using some perceived 
benefit that's far from clear to say the least to hey-presto an 
horrendous slaughter into a Good Thing for everybody including the 
victims, and just for a bonus the survivors' women are freer now too, 
your balanced view. When challenged your argument was that at least 
you can see some hope for humanity, unlike me, LOL! Now the only 
option you're leaving to seeing it all your way, in the sanitised new 
clothes you've dressed it up in, is to be doomed to hatred as well as 
an historically challenged pessimist.

I wonder how much you know about hatred? Me, well I don't hate 
anyone. It's not just armchair stuff, I've had my share of reasons 
for hatred. I can see them now, clear as the day they happened, scene 
after scene after scene, like a movie.

Re: [Biofuel] Drum Wrench was Re: Help needed.

2006-04-18 Thread Michael Luich

Northern tools as well:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?storeId=6970N=0Ntk=AllNtt=bung%20plug%20wrenchNty=1D=bung%20plug%20wrenchNtx=mode+matchallpartialDx=mode+matchallpartial

On 4/18/06, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Drum Wrench:

 http://www.morsemfgco.com/products/drum-wrenches.htm

 http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/atd-5271.html




 Chris Tan wrote:

 Thanks everyone. I probably need a bung plug wrench which I don't have
 an idea of. I 'll go research on the net.
 
 Thanks,
 Chris
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Weaver
 Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 5:49 AM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Help needed.
 
 Do you have a bung plug wrench?
 
 Chris Tan wrote:
 
 
 
 Greetings Everyone,
 
 Do any of you know just how to safely open a sealed 55gal steel drum
 full of methanol? It's my first time.
 
 Thanks,
 Chris
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Mixer or agitator standard

2006-04-18 Thread Appal Energy

1/2 HP, 1,275 rpm with thermal switch and TEFC rated, accompanied by a 
4, SS, prop-type, impeller would be more than adequate..



Setiyadi wrote:

 Does any one know the standard specs. of an agitator for 100 lt 
 biodiesel reactor and catalyst preparation, please ?

 -  Motor type and specification

 -  type of impeler

 Thanks

  

  

 Best Regards,

 Sty



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Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification

I just wanted to chime in here.Keith wrote: "It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up."It's alsotoo commonto see a reactionary restriction of _expression_, screening all posts before distribution (for example).This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective atmaintaining individual freedoms whileallowing it's membership to participate in maintaining continuity.Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help noticethe similaritiesbetween your views and the ideologydriving the White Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which we, in the US, havebeen indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to question the
perceivedcredibilityand legacy left behind by people like McCarthy and accept thefact that it's not acceptable to steer the culture, economy and government of another country simply because you feel you're "better".You wrote: "Our right to determine the direction of our life today is unparalleled in human history."So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta was "just a piece of paper" (if I can borrow an _expression_ from our president).There have been and are, better examples of democracy in human history than the republic we Americans pretend to push on others in the process of building an empire. Do some research on our Constitution and it's origins. It will lead youin a few directions - one of which is toward the Iroquoisnation. Ask an Iroquois about their "right to determine their life" - if you
can find one.You talk about the reassignment of land for the greater good but conveniently under emphasize the eradication of those people in the process of fulfilling that illusion. Mike Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello KimGreetings,I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well.I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with you read quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to backpedal her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of gravity and pedals.I did say I was in favor of colonizing the stars, not the colonizing that happened in past history and is happening today by
the corporate world.Um, sorry, not so. In fact you were also criticised for the colonising the stars bit, and you ignored that too. But for a lot of forbearance you could have got the boot just for that, and much besides. You should read the list rules again. They're there for a reason. It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. They had to be put into a form that people could be referred to and told to read and comply with when they joined. If not no list any more long ago already.A major reason for it was to put a stop to this kind of vanishing act that denialists of all stripes like to pull with what they said yesterday. You're not a denialist? But you walk the walk. The rules are all about integrity. Please go and read them.http://snipurl.com/mx7rI do find good in many bad
situations. Do I wish that certain changes had come about in a more humane manner, of course. Part of getting over hatred is seeing that even though you hated a situation, some personal good came from it. Hatred is bad for the person who hates, not the person who is hated.Morally and spiritually, indeed so. Practically, well, what will you say, Kim? At least the victims were pure of heart when they got slaughtered so it was a Good Thing for them, they didn't get the chance to pollute their spirits with negative feelings like hatred afterwards? Only a pessimistic person who sees no hope for humanity and knows nothing about history could disagree, eh? Sure, you didn't say that, but it's not far from what you did say, which you're now trying to sweep under the corner of the carpet, as usual. That's right, I'm going to unsweep it a little, did you think I wouldn't? You think some strange things. What
made you think I wouldn't check the snopes reference you posted even if you didn't? Denialists don't do metaphor either, they say "I didn't say that!"By distancingHm.and looking for good, one can overcome hatred of even a whole race.Hating a whole race, my word.To say that by finding good in a situation that you condoned the original sin is nonsense.It might be. If you use the good that you look for to distract from the "original sin" it might not be such nonsense. If you set out in search of a "good" in order to use it for that purpose it'd be even less nonsense. And when you use the perceived good to disappear the original sin altogether it's not nonsense at all.Perceived good:[Kim] For that matter, I do believe that Native women have more rightsnow than they had when they were property of the men in their families.Isn't that pretty much what
the

[Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

2006-04-18 Thread lendzian_michael

Keith, et. al.,

I cannot not in good conscience recommend the vendor Northern Tool.  
They market products of poor quality, sell warranties quickly for the 
same products and when those products fail- won't deliver per the terms 
of the warranty.

Respectfully submitted, Michael



The British philosopher Bertrand Russell once wrote that the trouble 
with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are 
full of doubt.

Michael Lendzian


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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

2006-04-18 Thread Jonathan Dunlap

Good day, Thank you for the FYI! Thank you, Jonathan[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, et. al.,I cannot not in good conscience recommend the vendor Northern Tool. They market products of poor quality, sell warranties quickly for the same products and when those products fail- won't deliver per the terms of the warranty.Respectfully submitted, MichaelThe British philosopher Bertrand Russell once wrote that "the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."Michael Lendzian___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
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J.J.A.M., Inc.
Jonathan Lynden DunlapIS Network Systems AnalystYour PC Linux Specialist P.O. Box 4209Inglewood, California 90309-4209323-779-2752/HomeThe information contained in this transmission is priviledged and confidential in nature and intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution, copying, disclosure or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and review by any individual other than the intended recipient shall not constitute waiver of privilege. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us immediately and completely remove the original transmission.
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Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification

Rudtard Kipling is rolling is his grave but William Easterly probably 
approves of pretty much everything you've said.

Michael Redler wrote:

 I just wanted to chime in here.
  
 Keith wrote:
  
 It reached a stage here where the list would not have
 survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there,
 we didn't just make them up.
  
 It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, 
 screening all posts before distribution (for example).
  
 This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective 
 at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to 
 participate in maintaining continuity.
  
 Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help notice the 
 similarities between your views and the ideology driving the White 
 Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which we, in 
 the US, have been indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to question 
 the perceived credibility and legacy left behind by people like 
 McCarthy and accept the fact that it's not acceptable to steer the 
 culture, economy and government of another country simply because you 
 feel you're better.
  
 You wrote: Our right to determine the direction of our life today is 
 unparalleled in human history.
  
 So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta was 
 just a piece of paper (if I can borrow an expression from our 
 president).
  
 There have been and are, better examples of democracy in human history 
 than the republic we Americans pretend to push on others in the 
 process of building an empire.
  
 Do some research on our Constitution and it's origins. It will lead 
 you in a few directions - one of which is toward the Iroquois nation. 
 Ask an Iroquois about their right to determine their life - if you 
 can find one. You talk about the reassignment of land for the greater 
 good but conveniently under emphasize the eradication of those people 
 in the process of fulfilling that illusion.
  
  
 Mike 


 */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 Hello Kim

 Greetings,
 I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well.

 I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and
 dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with you read
 quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to backpedal
 her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of gravity and pedals.

 I did say I was in favor of colonizing the stars, not the colonizing
 that happened in past history and is happening today by the
 corporate world.

 Um, sorry, not so. In fact you were also criticised for the
 colonising the stars bit, and you ignored that too. But for a lot of
 forbearance you could have got the boot just for that, and much
 besides. You should read the list rules again. They're there for a
 reason. It reached a stage here where the list would not have
 survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there,
 we didn't just make them up. They had to be put into a form that
 people could be referred to and told to read and comply with when
 they joined. If not no list any more long ago already.

 A major reason for it was to put a stop to this kind of vanishing act
 that denialists of all stripes like to pull with what they said
 yesterday. You're not a denialist? But you walk the walk. The rules
 are all about integrity. Please go and read them.
 http://snipurl.com/mx7r

 I do find good in many bad situations. Do I wish that certain
 changes had come about in a more humane manner, of course. Part of
 getting over hatred is seeing that even though you hated a
 situation, some personal good came from it. Hatred is bad for the
 person who hates, not the person who is hated.

 Morally and spiritually, indeed so. Practically, well, what will you
 say, Kim? At least the victims were pure of heart when they got
 slaughtered so it was a Good Thing for them, they didn't get the
 chance to pollute their spirits with negative feelings like hatred
 afterwards? Only a pessimistic person who sees no hope for humanity
 and knows nothing about history could disagree, eh? Sure, you didn't
 say that, but it's not far from what you did say, which you're now
 trying to sweep under the corner of the carpet, as usual. That's
 right, I'm going to unsweep it a little, did you think I wouldn't?
 You think some strange things. What made you think I wouldn't check
 the snopes reference you posted even if you didn't? Denialists don't
 do metaphor either, they say I didn't say that!

 By distancing

 Hm.

 and looking for good, one can overcome hatred of even a whole race.

 Hating a whole race, my word.

 To say that by finding good in a situation that you condoned the
 original sin is nonsense.

 It might be. If you use the good that you look

Re: [Biofuel] Help needed.

You can make one too - just use a piece of wood and two screws - then 
pop the seal, and slooowly turn the bung...

Chris Tan wrote:

Thanks everyone. I probably need a bung plug wrench which I don't have
an idea of. I 'll go research on the net.

Thanks,
Chris

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 5:49 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Help needed.

Do you have a bung plug wrench?

Chris Tan wrote:

  

Greetings Everyone,

Do any of you know just how to safely open a sealed 55gal steel drum
full of methanol? It's my first time.

Thanks,
Chris


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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

Yup, don't buy the warranty. If you are looking for a cheap one or two
time use tool I've bought their stuff.
Harbor Freight is similar. Good for tarps, bungees, spare toolkit for car

Jonathan Dunlap wrote:

Good day,
Thank you for the FYI!
Thank you,
Jonathan

*/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

Keith, et. al.,

I cannot not in good conscience recommend the vendor Northern Tool.
They market products of poor quality, sell warranties quickly for the
same products and when those products fail- won't deliver per the
terms
of the warranty.

Respectfully submitted, Michael

The British philosopher Bertrand Russell once wrote that the trouble
with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent
are
full of doubt.

Michael Lendzian

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IS Network Systems Analyst
Your PC Linux Specialist
P.O. Box 4209
Inglewood, California 90309-4209
323-779-2752/Home
The information contained in this transmission is priviledged and
confidential in nature and intended only for the use of the individual
or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended
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disclosure or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this
transmission is strictly prohibited and review by any individual other
than the intended recipient shall not constitute waiver of privilege.
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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

I'm sure I doubt that

The British philosopher Bertrand Russell once wrote that the trouble 
with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are 
full of doubt.

Michael Lendzian


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Re: [Biofuel] Mixer or agitator standard

I use a big old drill with a homemade paddle

Appal Energy wrote:

1/2 HP, 1,275 rpm with thermal switch and TEFC rated, accompanied by a 
4, SS, prop-type, impeller would be more than adequate..



Setiyadi wrote:

  

Does any one know the standard specs. of an agitator for 100 lt 
biodiesel reactor and catalyst preparation, please ?

-  Motor type and specification

-  type of impeler

Thanks

 

 

Best Regards,

Sty



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Re: [Biofuel] Mixer or agitator standard

2006-04-18 Thread Appal Energy

 I use a big old drill with a homemade paddle

Hence the qualifier more than adequate.

Todd Swearingen




Mike Weaver wrote:

I use a big old drill with a homemade paddle

Appal Energy wrote:

  

1/2 HP, 1,275 rpm with thermal switch and TEFC rated, accompanied by a 
4, SS, prop-type, impeller would be more than adequate..



Setiyadi wrote:

 



Does any one know the standard specs. of an agitator for 100 lt 
biodiesel reactor and catalyst preparation, please ?

-  Motor type and specification

-  type of impeler

Thanks





Best Regards,

Sty



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[Biofuel] You were saying?

*JAPANESE OFFICIALS RESIGN OVER U.S. MAD COW DEBACLE*
Despite new cases of Mad Cow disease surfacing in the U.S., Japan is 
reopening its borders to American beef. As a result of the policy 
decision half of the members of Japan's beef-safety government advisory 
panel have resigned. Morikazu Shinagawa, a researcher at the national 
Institute of Animal Health and a resigning member of the panel, told 
Kyodo News Service he couldn't continue to work on the panel because 
the conclusion to resume imports was preordained by the government. 
Japan banned U.S. beef imports in 2003 due to weak beef safety 
regulations in the U.S. While 100% of cows in Japan, aged 24 months and 
older, are tested for the Mad Cow disease, only 1% of the 35 million 
cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S. are tested. Japan recently caved 
to pressure from the Bush Administration and lift the ban on U.S. beef 
imports while appointing new experts to its beef safety advisory 
panel. http://www.organicconsumers.org/artman/publish/article_227.cfm


and...so such thing as organic:
*ORGANIC BYTES READERS VOTE TO LAUNCH BOYCOTT AGAINST HORIZON AND AURORA*
In the last two issues of Organic Bytes we invited our readers to vote 
on the direction of OCA's Safeguard Organic Standards Campaign by taking 
part in an online poll. The poll asked, Should the Organic Consumers 
Association call for a boycott of organic brands that are lobbying to 
weaken organic laws and taking advantage of loopholes in the organic 
standards (example: producing so-called organic dairy products on 
factory farms, where the animals are imported from conventional dairy 
farms, and then kept in intensive confinement, with no access to 
pasture)? We'd like to thank everyone who took part in that poll. The 
results indicate a resounding 96% of participants believe the OCA should 
launch a boycott. In response, and in alliance with the Cornucopia 
Institute http://www.cornucopia.org/index.php/dairy_brand_ratings/, 
the OCA sent out a national press release 
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=63542 last week 
calling on consumers to boycott these brands. Two of the largest organic 
dairy companies in the nation, Horizon Organic (a subsidiary of Dean 
Foods) and supplier to Wal-Mart and many health food stores; and Aurora 
Organic, a supplier of private brand name organic milk to Costco, 
Safeway, Giant, Wild Oats and others, are purchasing the majority of 
their milk from feedlot dairies where the cows have little or no access 
to pasture. The National Standards Board is currently accepting public 
comments regarding factory farm dairy. *
Take action here: *http://www.organicconsumers.org/nosb2.htm



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Re: [Biofuel] Mixer or agitator standard

and I can use it for ice cream

Appal Energy wrote:

I use a big old drill with a homemade paddle



Hence the qualifier more than adequate.

Todd Swearingen




Mike Weaver wrote:

  

I use a big old drill with a homemade paddle

Appal Energy wrote:

 



1/2 HP, 1,275 rpm with thermal switch and TEFC rated, accompanied by a 
4, SS, prop-type, impeller would be more than adequate..



Setiyadi wrote:



   

  

Does any one know the standard specs. of an agitator for 100 lt 
biodiesel reactor and catalyst preparation, please ?

-  Motor type and specification

-  type of impeler

Thanks





Best Regards,

Sty



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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

"The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world."- George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September 21, 2004)1.) 1% testing of US cattle for mad cow disease/"shares" risk with Japan  2.) World Health Organization ranks US37 in health care quality  3.) Rumsfeld makes millions from sale of bird flu vaccine  4.) December, 2001: United States' withdrawal from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty  5.) November, 2001: A 10-year-old program to help Russians prevent theft of nuclear warheads and weapons-grade uranium and plutonium was reduced by $20 million.  6.) "Clear Skies"weaken and delay health protections already required under the law.  7.) EPA "C.H.E.E.R.S." CHEMICAL INDUSTRY TO STUDY EFFECTS OF KNOWN TOXIC CHEMICALS ON
 CHILDRENFEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc.So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about "the advance of liberty"?MikeClear skies ref: http://www.nrdc.org/air/pollution/qbushplan.asp  C.H.E.E.R.S. ref: http://www.organicconsumers.org/epa-alert.htm  WHO ref: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html  Bird Flu ref: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0312-06.htm  ABM ref: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/rec.bush.abm/  prevent
 theft of nuclear warheads ref: http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b  Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  *JAPANESE OFFICIALS RESIGN OVER U.S. MAD COW DEBACLE*Despite new cases of Mad Cow disease surfacing in the U.S., Japan is reopening its borders to American beef. As a result of the policy decision half of the members of Japan's beef-safety government advisory panel have resigned. Morikazu Shinagawa, a researcher at the national Institute of Animal Health and a resigning member of the panel, told Kyodo News Service he "couldn't continue to work" on the panel because the conclusion to resume imports was preordained by the government.
 Japan banned U.S. beef imports in 2003 due to weak beef safety regulations in the U.S. While 100% of cows in Japan, aged 24 months and older, are tested for the Mad Cow disease, only 1% of the 35 million cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S. are tested. Japan recently caved to pressure from the Bush Administration and lift the ban on U.S. beef imports while appointing new "experts" to its beef safety advisory panel. http://www.organicconsumers.org/artman/publish/article_227.cfmand...so such thing as organic:*ORGANIC BYTES READERS VOTE TO LAUNCH BOYCOTT AGAINST HORIZON AND AURORA*In the last two issues of Organic Bytes we invited our readers to vote on the direction of OCA's Safeguard Organic Standards Campaign by taking part in an online poll. The poll asked, "Should the Organic Consumers Association call for a boycott of organic brands that are lobbying to weaken organic laws and taking advantage of
 loopholes in the organic standards (example: producing so-called "organic" dairy products on factory farms, where the animals are imported from conventional dairy farms, and then kept in intensive confinement, with no access to pasture)?" We'd like to thank everyone who took part in that poll. The results indicate a resounding 96% of participants believe the OCA should launch a boycott. In response, and in alliance with the Cornucopia Institute , the OCA sent out a national press release last week calling on consumers to boycott these brands. Two of the largest organic dairy companies in the nation, Horizon Organic (a subsidiary of Dean Foods) and supplier to Wal-Mart and many health food stores; and Aurora Organic, a supplier of private brand name organic milk to Costco, Safeway, Giant, Wild Oats and
 others, are purchasing the majority of their milk from feedlot dairies where the cows have little or no access to pasture. The National Standards Board is currently accepting public comments regarding factory farm dairy. *Take action here: *http://www.organicconsumers.org/nosb2.htm___
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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

Redler,

why do you hate freedom so much?

Get with the program.

Michael Redler wrote:

The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world.

- George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September
21, 2004)

1.) 1% testing of US cattle for mad cow disease/shares risk with Japan
2.) World Health Organization ranks US 37 in health care quality
3.) Rumsfeld makes millions from sale of bird flu vaccine
4.) December, 2001: United States' withdrawal from the 1972
Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty
5.) November, 2001: A 10-year-old program to help Russians prevent
theft of nuclear warheads and weapons-grade uranium and plutonium was
reduced by $20 million.
6.) Clear Skies weaken and delay health protections already required
under the law.
7.) EPA C.H.E.E.R.S. CHEMICAL INDUSTRY TO STUDY EFFECTS OF KNOWN
TOXIC CHEMICALS ON CHILDREN

FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc.

So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about the advance
of liberty?

Mike

Clear skies ref: http://www.nrdc.org/air/pollution/qbushplan.asp
C.H.E.E.R.S. ref: http://www.organicconsumers.org/epa-alert.htm
WHO ref: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Bird Flu ref: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0312-06.htm
ABM ref: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/rec.bush.abm/
prevent theft of nuclear warheads ref:
http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b

*/Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

*JAPANESE OFFICIALS RESIGN OVER U.S. MAD COW DEBACLE*
Despite new cases of Mad Cow disease surfacing in the U.S., Japan is
reopening its borders to American beef. As a result of the policy
decision half of the members of Japan's beef-safety government
advisory
panel have resigned. Morikazu Shinagawa, a researcher at the national
Institute of Animal Health and a resigning member of the panel, told
Kyodo News Service he couldn't continue to work on the panel
because
the conclusion to resume imports was preordained by the government.
Japan banned U.S. beef imports in 2003 due to weak beef safety
regulations in the U.S. While 100% of cows in Japan, aged 24
months and
older, are tested for the Mad Cow disease, only 1% of the 35 million
cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S. are tested. Japan recently
caved
to pressure from the Bush Administration and lift the ban on U.S.
beef
imports while appointing new experts to its beef safety advisory
panel. http://www.organicconsumers.org/artman/publish/article_227.cfm

and...so such thing as organic:
*ORGANIC BYTES READERS VOTE TO LAUNCH BOYCOTT AGAINST HORIZON AND
AURORA*
In the last two issues of Organic Bytes we invited our readers to
vote
on the direction of OCA's Safeguard Organic Standards Campaign by
taking
part in an online poll. The poll asked, Should the Organic Consumers
Association call for a boycott of organic brands that are lobbying to
weaken organic laws and taking advantage of loopholes in the organic
standards (example: producing so-called organic dairy products on
factory farms, where the animals are imported from conventional dairy
farms, and then kept in intensive confinement, with no access to
pasture)? We'd like to thank everyone who took part in that poll.
The
results indicate a resounding 96% of participants believe the OCA
should
launch a boycott. In response, and in alliance with the Cornucopia
Institute ,
the OCA sent out a national press release
last week
calling on consumers to boycott these brands. Two of the largest
organic
dairy companies in the nation, Horizon Organic (a subsidiary of Dean
Foods) and supplier to Wal-Mart and many health food stores; and
Aurora
Organic, a supplier of private brand name organic milk to Costco,
Safeway, Giant, Wild Oats and others, are purchasing the majority of
their milk from feedlot dairies where the cows have little or no
access
to pasture. The National Standards Board is currently accepting
public
comments regarding factory farm dairy. *
Take action here: *http://www.organicconsumers.org/nosb2.htm

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Biofuel

Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press

Hi all

The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in 
the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the 
discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages 
in archives.

I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want 
to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could 
discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion.

I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press.

But I haven't heard from him again.

Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I 
shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it 
anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can 
change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me.

He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't 
addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting 
back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks 
the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on 
a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate 
Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free 
online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg 
Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free 
online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a 
staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on 
selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can 
put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways.

In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting 
oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial 
revolution.

The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform 
including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new 
one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time 
Pannirselvam mentioned this:

we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so 
simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , 
future the sunflower and also the castor oil 

I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a 
future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press.

Here's his email, below.

Best

Keith


Dear Keith,

I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I 
am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a 
small press.

I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let 
me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. 
I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell 
the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the 
poorest a future.

I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in 
1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am 
still working in that field.

In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No 
big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to 
develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the 
possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil, 
medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil 
for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any, 
often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from 
seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy 
on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value 
added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as 
a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses 
are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the 
cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments 
(including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not 
all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed 
the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided not to 
take all these hours into account and keep the price of the Piteba 
press low. I produce the press myself in my own new work shop, 
because local manufacturers were too expensive for quantities below 
5000. I installed all necessary machinery especially to make 
production possible in my own spare time, reducing production 
costs. Of course the consumer price is considerably higher than the 
retail prices, so it gives retailers the chance to sell the press 
locally with a reasonable profit. Unfortunately sending 1 press by 
mail makes it about 40 to 60% more expensive, but still it is 
affordable and available.

I would really appreciate it if you could help me to put your 
energy in developing useful applications of the oil produced by the 
Piteba press. I see that you all have practical ideas that could be 
very useful. I am thinking of a small diesel engine running on 
vegetable oil to be connected to the local water pump, a small 
burner for

Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

Keith, et. al.,

I cannot not in good conscience recommend the vendor Northern Tool.
They market products of poor quality, sell warranties quickly for the
same products and when those products fail- won't deliver per the terms
of the warranty.

Respectfully submitted, Michael

Hi Michael

Our experience of them in buying a 1 clear water pump was bad, they 
just can't do a foreign order, really hopeless, they shouldn't claim 
to do it in the first place. A friend in the US had to intervene. We 
warn about it at our website.

But the pump is okay. Chinese pump though, so it comes with a context.

Best

Keith



The British philosopher Bertrand Russell once wrote that the trouble
with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are
full of doubt.

Michael Lendzian


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Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet

2006-04-18 Thread greg Kelly

No problem...what's BioK?FWIW, I really don't feel myself on the antibiotics - my digestion is fouled up.It is clearly not infected I wonder it I can stop them?  Conventional wisdom is that once you start a regimen of antibiotics, you finish them. If you stop in mid-regimen, you run the risk of making the bugs that causing you problems now immune, as well as your body's own defense mechanisms have problems. I always eat yogurt when taking them and it helps the digestion. But then, I eat yogurt all the time, anyway. :-)  Greg K___
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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

...sorry.I don't know what came over me.:-)Mike Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Redler,why do you hate freedom so much?Get with the program.Michael Redler wrote: "The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world." - George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September 21, 2004) 1.) 1% testing of US cattle for mad cow disease/"shares" risk with Japan 2.) World Health Organization ranks US 37 in health care quality 3.) Rumsfeld makes millions from sale of bird flu vaccine 4.) December, 2001: United States' withdrawal from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty 5.) November,
2001: A 10-year-old program to help Russians prevent theft of nuclear warheads and weapons-grade uranium and plutonium was reduced by $20 million. 6.) "Clear Skies" weaken and delay health protections already required under the law. 7.) EPA "C.H.E.E.R.S." CHEMICAL INDUSTRY TO STUDY EFFECTS OF KNOWN TOXIC CHEMICALS ON CHILDREN FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc. So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about "the advance of liberty"? Mike Clear skies ref: http://www.nrdc.org/air/pollution/qbushplan.asp C.H.E.E.R.S. ref: http://www.organicconsumers.org/epa-alert.htm WHO ref: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Bird Flu ref: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0312-06.htm ABM ref: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/rec.bush.abm/ prevent theft of nuclear warheads ref:
http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: *JAPANESE OFFICIALS RESIGN OVER U.S. MAD COW DEBACLE* Despite new cases of Mad Cow disease surfacing in the U.S., Japan is reopening its borders to American beef. As a result of the policy decision half of the members of Japan's beef-safety government advisory panel have resigned. Morikazu Shinagawa, a researcher at the national Institute of Animal Health and a resigning member of the panel, told Kyodo News Service he "couldn't continue to work" on the panel because the conclusion to resume imports was preordained by the government. Japan banned U.S. beef imports in 2003 due to weak beef safety regulations in the U.S. While 100% of cows in Japan, aged 24 months and older, are tested for the Mad
Cow disease, only 1% of the 35 million cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S. are tested. Japan recently caved to pressure from the Bush Administration and lift the ban on U.S. beef imports while appointing new "experts" to its beef safety advisory panel. http://www.organicconsumers.org/artman/publish/article_227.cfm[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

2006-04-18 Thread Chip Mefford

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Keith, et. al.,
 
 I cannot not in good conscience recommend the vendor Northern Tool.  
 They market products of poor quality, sell warranties quickly for the 
 same products and when those products fail- won't deliver per the terms 
 of the warranty.
 
 Respectfully submitted, Michae

Maybe it's just because I've been buying and using tools all my
life, like my father before me.

But I feel that Northern Tool is a typical caveat emptor
situation. The good stuff costs real money, the stuff that
doesn't cost real money is junk. If you are okay with junk,
then that's fine.

So much of the junk that Northern Tool/Harbor Freight
and Wallmart for that matter sells, can be readily
substitued by some decent piece of kit purchased at
a yard sale, or farm auction as often as not, as long
as the so-called 'need' isn't immediate. At least
here in the US, I've found that to be true.

The whole overarching concept of a warranty is based
in deception. IMHO.


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[Biofuel] CHEERS study

2006-04-18 Thread Bobby Clark

I recently saw reference to this study in an email and a reference link to a 
story on an organic consumers website. For one thing the study has been 
cancelled. Secondly, the EPA was not going to ask parents to spray the 
pesticides in their homes; it was going to monitor small children that were 
already exposed to the pesticide by virtue of where they lived.

I believe we live in a day and age where the government can be trusted less 
and less. However, let's try and get the truth before we go spreading it 
around. We must be vigilant for the truth so that when a real problem comes 
up, people will listen.

Peace,
Bobby Clark



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Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification

2006-04-18 Thread Chip Mefford

Michael Redler wrote:
 I just wanted to chime in here.

   Keith wrote: 

   It reached a stage here where the list would not have 
 survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, 
 we didn't just make them up.

   It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, 
 screening all posts before distribution (for example).

Oh, I don't know.

I had a post 'screened' a few months back, which led to a lively
off-list debate, (actually it was a fight/screaming match) -which
I lost btw- that would not have benefitted the list at all.

the post I submitted and had screened, was poorly (not at all)
researched, and expressed a pov that was based in ignorance of
the subject I was commenting upon. It was taken the wrong way
by the moderator, but in light of the subject at hand, that
was certainly understandable, and in interest of the health
of the list, the decision to take the argument/debate off
list was most certainly correct. It also saved me the
embarrassment of arguing an idiotic point, something I am
want to do upon occasion :)

big thread snipped upon which I have nothing to add

--chipper

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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

As you were, then.

Good Pentagon interview with our boy Rummy on. He acts like the whole
Iraq/Afganistan is just so much hoopla to be wise-cracked about.
Some of the reporters were asking some great questions, which he ducked.

Michael Redler wrote:

...sorry.

I don't know what came over me.

:-)

Mike

*/Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

Redler,

why do you hate freedom so much?

Get with the program.

Michael Redler wrote:

The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better
world.

- George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly
(September
21, 2004)

1.) 1% testing of US cattle for mad cow disease/shares risk
with Japan
2.) World Health Organization ranks US 37 in health care quality
3.) Rumsfeld makes millions from sale of bird flu vaccine
4.) December, 2001: United States' withdrawal from the 1972
Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty
5.) November, 2001: A 10-year-old program to help Russians prevent
theft of nuclear warheads and weapons-grade uranium and
plutonium was
reduced by $20 million.
6.) Clear Skies weaken and delay health protections already
required
under the law.
7.) EPA C.H.E.E.R.S. CHEMICAL INDUSTRY TO STUDY EFFECTS OF KNOWN
TOXIC CHEMICALS ON CHILDREN

FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc.

So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about the
advance
of liberty?

Mike

Clear skies ref: http://www.nrdc.org/air/pollution/qbushplan.asp
C.H.E.E.R.S. ref: http://www.organicconsumers.org/epa-alert.htm
WHO ref: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Bird Flu ref: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0312-06.htm
ABM ref:
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/rec.bush.abm/
prevent theft of nuclear warheads ref:

http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b

*/Mike Weaver /* wrote:

*JAPANESE OFFICIALS RESIGN OVER U.S. MAD COW DEBACLE*
Despite new cases of Mad Cow disease surfacing in the U.S., Japan is
reopening its borders to American beef. As a result of the policy
decision half of the members of Japan's beef-safety government
advisory
panel have resigned. Morikazu Shinagawa, a researcher at the
national
Institute of Animal Health and a resigning member of the panel, told
Kyodo News Service he couldn't continue to work on the panel
because
the conclusion to resume imports was preordained by the government.
Japan banned U.S. beef imports in 2003 due to weak beef safety
regulations in the U.S. While 100% of cows in Japan, aged 24
months and
older, are tested for the Mad Cow disease, only 1% of the 35 million
cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S. are tested. Japan recently
caved
to pressure from the Bush Administration and lift the ban on U.S.
beef
imports while appointing new experts to its beef safety advisory
panel.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/artman/publish/article_227.cfm

[snip]

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Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification

Chip wrote: "I had a post 'screened' a few months back, which led to a lively off-list debate..."If all posts on that thread were screened, I disagree with your assessment. However, I agree with subsequent screening/deleting after the list members had a chance to read and dissent to the initial posts.To my knowledge Keith tries to give the list a chance to respond to every post and it's understood (IMO) that members who have nothing but antagonism to offer, are removed. This is usually done with all the transparencyhe can afford.MikeChip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Michael Redler wrote: I just wanted to chime in here.  Keith wrote:   "It reached a stage here
 where the list would not have  survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there,  we didn't just make them up."  It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of _expression_, screening all posts before distribution (for example).Oh, I don't know.I had a post 'screened' a few months back, which led to a livelyoff-list debate, (actually it was a fight/screaming match) -whichI lost btw- that would not have benefitted the list at all.the post I submitted and had screened, was poorly (not at all)researched, and expressed a pov that was based in ignorance ofthe subject I was commenting upon. It was taken the wrong wayby the moderator, but in light of the subject at hand, thatwas certainly understandable, and in interest of the healthof the list, the decision to take the argument/debate offlist was most certainly correct. It also saved me theembarrassment of
 arguing an idiotic point, something I amwant to do upon occasion :)big thread snipped upon which I have nothing to add--chipper___
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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

2006-04-18 Thread Hakan Falk

Mike,

Now I finally got it and understand the meaning of freedom versus
liberty. Freedom as practiced in US at the moment, also means freedom
from responsibility and accountability.

Liberty do carry some expectations on responsibility and
accountability, which are the parts that US lacks at the moment.

Took some time to catch, but I guess that it is expected from
ignorant foreigners like me.

Hakan

At 18:17 18/04/2006, you wrote:
Redler,

why do you hate freedom so much?

Get with the program.

Michael Redler wrote:

The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world.

- George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September
21, 2004)

FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc.

So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about the advance
of liberty?

Mike

http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b

*/Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

___

Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

Hakan,

Freedom means the freedom to borrow 2 billion a week to support a war
we've already lost.
Freedom means never having to say you're sorry.
Freedom means completely trashing a country then getting distracted by a
2 bit tinhorn tyrant in another country and forgetting you promised to
rebuild the first country.
Feedom means the freedom to spy on people.
4 legs good, 2 legs bad, 4 legs good, 2 legs bad, 4 legs good, 2 legs bad

Now just keep saying that...

I didn't know you were a foreigner. That's ok. We American know how to
deal with foreigners,
I'LL JUST TALK REAL LOUD

Like to buy a savings bond?

-M

Hakan Falk wrote:

Mike,

Now I finally got it and understand the meaning of freedom versus
liberty. Freedom as practiced in US at the moment, also means freedom
from responsibility and accountability.

Liberty do carry some expectations on responsibility and
accountability, which are the parts that US lacks at the moment.

Took some time to catch, but I guess that it is expected from
ignorant foreigners like me.

Hakan

At 18:17 18/04/2006, you wrote:

Redler,

why do you hate freedom so much?

Get with the program.

Michael Redler wrote:

The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world.

- George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September
21, 2004)

FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc.

So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about the advance
of liberty?

Mike

http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b

*/Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

[Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

2006-04-18 Thread lendzian_michael

Thanks Keith.  Keep on trucking!


Michael Lendzian


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Re: [Biofuel] CHEERS study

Bobby,You wrote: "For one thing the study has been cancelled."I providedmy sourcefor people to read more on their own. There was no deception. Ipointed out the programas an indication of what the EPA EnvironmentalPROTECTION Agency)is willing to do.(IMO),the fact that it was canceled, does not change my point.You wrote: "Secondly, the EPA was not going to ask parents to spray the pesticides in their homes"Well Bobby, by virtue of the fact that it was a STUDY, one can easily conclude that any immediate knowledge of exposure to the children puts theprogram in jeopardy - a very serious conflict of interest. Couple thatwith the fact that those who signed up for the program were poor, singling out (taking advantage of) a particular economic class.I
 did not distort the truth. I did not intentionally leave out or add information whichdeceives the reader or unfairly supportsmy position.Finally, I did not hide my sources. These are all the necessary criteria for supporting your accusation. Please try to refrain from frivolous accusations before it effects your credibility on this list.Thank you.Mike  Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I recently saw reference to this study in an email and a reference link to a story on an organic consumers website. For one thing the study has been cancelled. Secondly, the EPA was not going to ask parents to spray the pesticides in their homes; it was going to monitor small children that were already
 exposed to the pesticide by virtue of where they lived.I believe we live in a day and age where the government can be trusted less and less. However, let's try and get the truth before we go spreading it around. We must be vigilant for the truth so that when a real problem comes up, people will listen.Peace,Bobby Clark___
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Re: [Biofuel] CHEERS study

2006-04-18 Thread marilyn

When Senator Barbara Boxer from California spoke in Senate 
committee hearings about this, she said the parents were being 
paid to use the pesticides in their homes so the results could be 
studied in their children. I hope your version is right, not hers 
because it is more humane.  I am curious to know what proof 
you have.
Marilyn

Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
I recently saw reference to this study in an email and a reference 
link to a 
story on an organic consumers website. For one thing the study 
has been 
cancelled. Secondly, the EPA was not going to ask parents to 
spray the 
pesticides in their homes; it was going to monitor small children 
that were 
already exposed to the pesticide by virtue of where they lived.

I believe we live in a day and age where the government can be 
trusted less 
and less. However, let's try and get the truth before we go 
spreading it 
around. We must be vigilant for the truth so that when a real 
problem comes 
up, people will listen.

Peace,
Bobby Clark



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Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification

2006-04-18 Thread marilyn

I hope that too much restriction does not take place because I 
learn a lot from reading reactions to each other's statements. It 
helps me clarify my own thinking by watching people try to help 
others clarify and defend their positions. I want to understand 
why people feel they way they do. Most of my friends think like I 
do, and I have a lot to learn about the root causes of different 
viewponts. 
Marilyn

Michael Redler wrote:

I just wanted to chime in here.
   
  Keith wrote: 
   
  It reached a stage here where the list would not have 
survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already 
there, 
we didn't just make them up.
   
  It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of 
expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example).
   
  This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective at 
maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership 
to participate in maintaining continuity.
   
  Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help notice the 
similarities between your views and the ideology driving the 
White Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which 
we, in the US, have been indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to 
question the perceived credibility and legacy left behind by 
people like McCarthy and accept the fact that it's not acceptable 
to steer the culture, economy and government of another country 
simply because you feel you're better.
   
  You wrote: Our right to determine the direction of our life today 
is unparalleled in human history.
   
  So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta 
was just a piece of paper (if I can borrow an expression from 
our president).
   
  There have been and are, better examples of democracy in 
human history than the republic we Americans pretend to push 
on others in the process of building an empire. 
   
  Do some research on our Constitution and it's origins. It will 
lead you in a few directions - one of which is toward the Iroquois 
nation. Ask an Iroquois about their right to determine their life - 
if you can find one. You talk about the reassignment of land for 
the greater good but conveniently under emphasize the 
eradication of those people in the process of fulfilling that 
illusion.
   
   
  Mike 
  

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hello Kim

Greetings,
I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well.

I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and 
dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with 
you read 
quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to 
backpedal 
her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of gravity and 
pedals.

I did say I was in favor of colonizing the stars, not the colonizing 
that happened in past history and is happening today by the 
corporate world.

Um, sorry, not so. In fact you were also criticised for the 
colonising the stars bit, and you ignored that too. But for a lot of 
forbearance you could have got the boot just for that, and much 
besides. You should read the list rules again. They're there for a 
reason. It reached a stage here where the list would not have 
survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already 
there, 
we didn't just make them up. They had to be put into a form that 
people could be referred to and told to read and comply with 
when 
they joined. If not no list any more long ago already.

A major reason for it was to put a stop to this kind of vanishing 
act 
that denialists of all stripes like to pull with what they said 
yesterday. You're not a denialist? But you walk the walk. The 
rules 
are all about integrity. Please go and read them.
http://snipurl.com/mx7r

I do find good in many bad situations. Do I wish that certain 
changes had come about in a more humane manner, of 
course. Part of 
getting over hatred is seeing that even though you hated a 
situation, some personal good came from it. Hatred is bad for 
the 
person who hates, not the person who is hated.

Morally and spiritually, indeed so. Practically, well, what will you 
say, Kim? At least the victims were pure of heart when they got 
slaughtered so it was a Good Thing for them, they didn't get the 
chance to pollute their spirits with negative feelings like hatred 
afterwards? Only a pessimistic person who sees no hope for 
humanity 
and knows nothing about history could disagree, eh? Sure, you 
didn't 
say that, but it's not far from what you did say, which you're now 
trying to sweep under the corner of the carpet, as usual. That's 
right, I'm going to unsweep it a little, did you think I wouldn't? 
You think some strange things. What made you think I wouldn't 
check 
the snopes reference you posted even if you didn't? Denialists 
don't 
do metaphor either, they say I didn't say that!

By distancing

Hm.

and looking for good, one can overcome hatred of even a whole 
race.

Hating a whole race, my word.

To say that by finding good in a

Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

Hello Chip

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Keith, et. al.,
 
  I cannot not in good conscience recommend the vendor Northern Tool.
  They market products of poor quality, sell warranties quickly for the
  same products and when those products fail- won't deliver per the terms
  of the warranty.
 
  Respectfully submitted, Michae

Maybe it's just because I've been buying and using tools all my
life, like my father before me.

But I feel that Northern Tool is a typical caveat emptor
situation. The good stuff costs real money, the stuff that
doesn't cost real money is junk. If you are okay with junk,
then that's fine.

My father before me too. But there's a grey area, and the Chinese are 
really good at it. We reluctantly bought a Chinese-made metal cutter 
here for about US$25, half the price of anything else. We were skint, 
needed the tool, couldn't afford a good one. It lasted two years and 
died, but it did a lot of work in the meantime that wouldn't have 
been easy without it. All in all a good buy. It's all like that, very 
cheap, it does the job, it lasts two years or more and then it dies, 
all the bushes suddenly collapse at the same time or something.

Meanwhile when we came here we found a much older metal cutter in the 
shed, made by Hitachi, a good tool, though maybe it's less 
convenient. Now we use that, it's had a long and useful life 
already but there's years of use left in it.

We do well reclaiming junk, but they don't do yard sales here, or 
only very rarely, 2nd hand tools are hard to find. The networks work 
well but it's uncertain and it takes time.

I don't like these cheap tools, too pragmatic for me and too many 
other questions to be asked too, but they can be hard to resist.

Best

Keith


So much of the junk that Northern Tool/Harbor Freight
and Wallmart for that matter sells, can be readily
substitued by some decent piece of kit purchased at
a yard sale, or farm auction as often as not, as long
as the so-called 'need' isn't immediate. At least
here in the US, I've found that to be true.

The whole overarching concept of a warranty is based
in deception. IMHO.


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[Biofuel] Nettle Juice

Hello everyone!

We've been intending to harvest wild stinging nettles for awhile now, 
but it's been rainy for the last week and we haven't gone for a  walk 
uphill where the nettles grow.  This morning, however, my sweetheart 
and I managed to find some time.  We collected a grocery bag full of 
nettle tips (we only harvest the tender parts at the end of the plant 
stems, just before the flowers come out), which is roughly enough for 
one family sized serving.

After blanching, nettles are tender and absolutely delicious!  I like 
the flavor better than spinach, which I prefer raw, and any recipe 
that calls for spinach basically tastes better with nettles.  However, 
every time my sweetheart blanches the nettles, we're left with a very 
dark green tea.

I'd hate to throw this down the drain, but I don't REALLY want to 
drink it, either.  (It tastes disgusting, and even my cats won't touch 
it!)  Am I better to water my plants with this, or should I just put 
it on my compost pile.  Any advice?


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

Hakan,When I opened this message, I could smell a little sarcasm but, I'm at a loss as to why. There might be a little misunderstanding here since (I think) we are on the same side of the issue(s).My previous post was in the form of a question. Do you have an answer?MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Mike,Now I finally got it and understand the meaning of freedom versus liberty. Freedom as practiced in US at the moment, also means freedom from responsibility and accountability.Liberty do carry some expectations on responsibility and accountability, which are the parts that US lacks at the moment.Took some time to catch, but I guess that it is expected from ignorant foreigners
 like me.HakanAt 18:17 18/04/2006, you wrote:Redler,why do you hate freedom so much?Get with the program.Michael Redler wrote:  "The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world."   - George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September  21, 2004)   1.) 1% testing of US cattle for mad cow disease/"shares" risk with Japan  2.) World Health Organization ranks US 37 in health care quality  3.) Rumsfeld makes millions from sale of bird flu vaccine  4.) December, 2001: United States' withdrawal from the 1972  Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty  5.) November, 2001: A 10-year-old program to help Russians prevent  theft of nuclear warheads and weapons-grade uranium and plutonium was  reduced by $20 million.
  6.) "Clear Skies" weaken and delay health protections already required  under the law.  7.) EPA "C.H.E.E.R.S." CHEMICAL INDUSTRY TO STUDY EFFECTS OF KNOWN  TOXIC CHEMICALS ON CHILDREN   FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc.   So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about "the advance  of liberty"?   Mike   Clear skies ref: http://www.nrdc.org/air/pollution/qbushplan.asp  C.H.E.E.R.S. ref: http://www.organicconsumers.org/epa-alert.htm  WHO ref: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html  Bird Flu ref: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0312-06.htm  ABM ref: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/rec.bush.abm/  prevent theft of nuclear warheads ref:  
 http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b   */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:   *JAPANESE OFFICIALS RESIGN OVER U.S. MAD COW DEBACLE*  Despite new cases of Mad Cow disease surfacing in the U.S., Japan is  reopening its borders to American beef. As a result of the policy  decision half of the members of Japan's beef-safety government  advisory  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

In the US pawnshops are good source of good tools


Keith Addison wrote:

Hello Chip

  

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Keith, et. al.,

I cannot not in good conscience recommend the vendor Northern Tool.
They market products of poor quality, sell warranties quickly for the
same products and when those products fail- won't deliver per the terms
of the warranty.

Respectfully submitted, Michae
  

Maybe it's just because I've been buying and using tools all my
life, like my father before me.

But I feel that Northern Tool is a typical caveat emptor
situation. The good stuff costs real money, the stuff that
doesn't cost real money is junk. If you are okay with junk,
then that's fine.



My father before me too. But there's a grey area, and the Chinese are 
really good at it. We reluctantly bought a Chinese-made metal cutter 
here for about US$25, half the price of anything else. We were skint, 
needed the tool, couldn't afford a good one. It lasted two years and 
died, but it did a lot of work in the meantime that wouldn't have 
been easy without it. All in all a good buy. It's all like that, very 
cheap, it does the job, it lasts two years or more and then it dies, 
all the bushes suddenly collapse at the same time or something.

Meanwhile when we came here we found a much older metal cutter in the 
shed, made by Hitachi, a good tool, though maybe it's less 
convenient. Now we use that, it's had a long and useful life 
already but there's years of use left in it.

We do well reclaiming junk, but they don't do yard sales here, or 
only very rarely, 2nd hand tools are hard to find. The networks work 
well but it's uncertain and it takes time.

I don't like these cheap tools, too pragmatic for me and too many 
other questions to be asked too, but they can be hard to resist.

Best

Keith


  

So much of the junk that Northern Tool/Harbor Freight
and Wallmart for that matter sells, can be readily
substitued by some decent piece of kit purchased at
a yard sale, or farm auction as often as not, as long
as the so-called 'need' isn't immediate. At least
here in the US, I've found that to be true.

The whole overarching concept of a warranty is based
in deception. IMHO.




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Re: [Biofuel] CHEERS study

Aww...we're from the government.  We're here to help.

Just ask those nice folks who conducted the Tuskegee expirement...

Michael Redler wrote:

 Bobby,
  
 You wrote: For one thing the study has been cancelled.
  
 I provided my source for people to read more on their own. There was 
 no deception. I pointed out the program as an indication of what the 
 EPA Environmental PROTECTION Agency) is willing to do. (IMO), the fact 
 that it was canceled, does not change my point.
  
 You wrote: Secondly, the EPA was not going to ask parents to spray the
 pesticides in their homes
  
 Well Bobby, by virtue of the fact that it was a STUDY, one can easily 
 conclude that any immediate knowledge of exposure to the children puts 
 the program in jeopardy - a very serious conflict of interest.  Couple 
 that with the fact that those who signed up for the program were poor, 
 singling out (taking advantage of) a particular economic class.
  
 I did not distort the truth. I did not intentionally leave out or add 
 information which deceives the reader or unfairly supports my 
 position. Finally, I did not hide my sources. These are all the 
 necessary criteria for supporting your accusation.
  
 Please try to refrain from frivolous accusations before it effects 
 your credibility on this list.
  
 Thank you.
  
 Mike


 */Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 I recently saw reference to this study in an email and a reference
 link to a
 story on an organic consumers website. For one thing the study has
 been
 cancelled. Secondly, the EPA was not going to ask parents to spray
 the
 pesticides in their homes; it was going to monitor small children
 that were
 already exposed to the pesticide by virtue of where they lived.

 I believe we live in a day and age where the government can be
 trusted less
 and less. However, let's try and get the truth before we go
 spreading it
 around. We must be vigilant for the truth so that when a real
 problem comes
 up, people will listen.

 Peace,
 Bobby Clark



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Re: [Biofuel] CHEERS study

That's easy - then it will be in The Record

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

When Senator Barbara Boxer from California spoke in Senate 
committee hearings about this, she said the parents were being 
paid to use the pesticides in their homes so the results could be 
studied in their children. I hope your version is right, not hers 
because it is more humane.  I am curious to know what proof 
you have.
Marilyn

Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
I recently saw reference to this study in an email and a reference 
link to a 
story on an organic consumers website. For one thing the study 
has been 
cancelled. Secondly, the EPA was not going to ask parents to 
spray the 
pesticides in their homes; it was going to monitor small children 
that were 
already exposed to the pesticide by virtue of where they lived.

I believe we live in a day and age where the government can be 
trusted less 
and less. However, let's try and get the truth before we go 
spreading it 
around. We must be vigilant for the truth so that when a real 
problem comes 
up, people will listen.

Peace,
Bobby Clark



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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

2006-04-18 Thread mark manchester

Quickly replying!  I love nettle tea, I grow nettles just so I can have
fresh tea, and it's so good for you, iron and D and all that.  Or try making
Pho with it, if you ever tire of beef or shrimp pho.  The chile sauce, fish
socks (sauce of course, but it has a certain smelll), lime chunks, etc.
that goes with traditional pho soup... this is a great application.

I'm feeling sensitive because I just made my first batch of tea yesterday
and have been basking in springtime.

But Robert, ohmygawd, it never OCCURRED to me to eat the nettles!  Thanks!
Just a light flip-fry, I suppose, maybe garlic.  Just like rapini?
Jesse

 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:33:08 -0700
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice
 
 Hello everyone!
 
 We've been intending to harvest wild stinging nettles for awhile now,
 but it's been rainy for the last week and we haven't gone for a  walk
 uphill where the nettles grow.  This morning, however, my sweetheart
 and I managed to find some time.  We collected a grocery bag full of
 nettle tips (we only harvest the tender parts at the end of the plant
 stems, just before the flowers come out), which is roughly enough for
 one family sized serving.
 
 After blanching, nettles are tender and absolutely delicious!  I like
 the flavor better than spinach, which I prefer raw, and any recipe
 that calls for spinach basically tastes better with nettles.  However,
 every time my sweetheart blanches the nettles, we're left with a very
 dark green tea.
 
 I'd hate to throw this down the drain, but I don't REALLY want to
 drink it, either.  (It tastes disgusting, and even my cats won't touch
 it!)  Am I better to water my plants with this, or should I just put
 it on my compost pile.  Any advice?
 
 
 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca
 
 Ranger Supercharger Project Page
 http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
 
 
 
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 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

mark manchester wrote:

 Quickly replying!  I love nettle tea, I grow nettles just so I can have
 fresh tea, and it's so good for you, iron and D and all that.  Or try making
 Pho with it, if you ever tire of beef or shrimp pho.  The chile sauce, fish
 socks (sauce of course, but it has a certain smelll), lime chunks, etc.
 that goes with traditional pho soup... this is a great application.

I don't eat anything that had brown eyes and a mom, so no beef for 
me!  Also, I stay away from bottom feeders.  I've never tried pho 
before--it's a kind of Vietnamese noodle soup, is it not?

 I'm feeling sensitive because I just made my first batch of tea yesterday
 and have been basking in springtime.

Ok, I'll take your word that it's healthy (it certainly LOOKS 
healthy), but the water is FULL of bugs.  I suppose I could strain 
them out, but I can't STAND the flavor of the tea.

 But Robert, ohmygawd, it never OCCURRED to me to eat the nettles!  Thanks!
 Just a light flip-fry, I suppose, maybe garlic.  Just like rapini?

My sweetheart did a butter / olive oil / garlic stir fry in a really 
hot pan for lunch.  It was delicious!  One of the nice things about 
nettles is that they suppress appetite, so I'm feeling nice and 
content right now.

We're trying to cut out sweets and exercise more regularly.  Diabetes 
runs in both our families, so we need to be careful that our body 
masses don't creep up with age, and we'd would like our boys to grow 
up eating more sensibly than is the case for most of the population in 
our area.  Nettles grow wild around here, and they're VERY abundant 
among the shaded, north-facing slopes rising above our subdivision. 
We can only harvest them for a short time while they're tender, so NOW 
is the time for us to cut nettles.  A friend, who goes on a walk every 
day, takes a bag with her and fills one up every day.  In a two or 
three week period of time, she collects enough to freeze for the year 
and enjoys eating nettles in every season.

I still can't bring myself to do a horsetail stir fry . . .  We hae 
PLENTY of that around here too!

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

Fiddlehead ferns and cat tails...

robert luis rabello wrote:

mark manchester wrote:

  

Quickly replying!  I love nettle tea, I grow nettles just so I can have
fresh tea, and it's so good for you, iron and D and all that.  Or try making
Pho with it, if you ever tire of beef or shrimp pho.  The chile sauce, fish
socks (sauce of course, but it has a certain smelll), lime chunks, etc.
that goes with traditional pho soup... this is a great application.



   I don't eat anything that had brown eyes and a mom, so no beef for 
me!  Also, I stay away from bottom feeders.  I've never tried pho 
before--it's a kind of Vietnamese noodle soup, is it not?

  

I'm feeling sensitive because I just made my first batch of tea yesterday
and have been basking in springtime.



   Ok, I'll take your word that it's healthy (it certainly LOOKS 
healthy), but the water is FULL of bugs.  I suppose I could strain 
them out, but I can't STAND the flavor of the tea.

  

But Robert, ohmygawd, it never OCCURRED to me to eat the nettles!  Thanks!
Just a light flip-fry, I suppose, maybe garlic.  Just like rapini?



   My sweetheart did a butter / olive oil / garlic stir fry in a really 
hot pan for lunch.  It was delicious!  One of the nice things about 
nettles is that they suppress appetite, so I'm feeling nice and 
content right now.

   We're trying to cut out sweets and exercise more regularly.  Diabetes 
runs in both our families, so we need to be careful that our body 
masses don't creep up with age, and we'd would like our boys to grow 
up eating more sensibly than is the case for most of the population in 
our area.  Nettles grow wild around here, and they're VERY abundant 
among the shaded, north-facing slopes rising above our subdivision. 
We can only harvest them for a short time while they're tender, so NOW 
is the time for us to cut nettles.  A friend, who goes on a walk every 
day, takes a bag with her and fills one up every day.  In a two or 
three week period of time, she collects enough to freeze for the year 
and enjoys eating nettles in every season.

   I still can't bring myself to do a horsetail stir fry . . .  We hae 
PLENTY of that around here too!

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

2006-04-18 Thread Paul S Cantrell

Hi Robert!

On 4/18/06, robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello everyone!

 We've been intending to harvest wild stinging nettles for awhile now,
 but it's been rainy for the last week and we haven't gone for a  walk
 uphill where the nettles grow.  This morning, however, my sweetheart
 and I managed to find some time.  We collected a grocery bag full of
 nettle tips (we only harvest the tender parts at the end of the plant
 stems, just before the flowers come out), which is roughly enough for
 one family sized serving.

 After blanching, nettles are tender and absolutely delicious!  I like
 the flavor better than spinach, which I prefer raw, and any recipe
 that calls for spinach basically tastes better with nettles.  However,
 every time my sweetheart blanches the nettles, we're left with a very
 dark green tea.

 I'd hate to throw this down the drain, but I don't REALLY want to
 drink it, either.  (It tastes disgusting, and even my cats won't touch
 it!)  Am I better to water my plants with this, or should I just put
 it on my compost pile.  Any advice?


 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca

 Ranger Supercharger Project Page
 http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


It's full of nutrients and that would make any plant happy.

quoted from:
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Organics/CompostMulch/CompostTea/OtherTeas.htm
 Herbal Tea

These include plant-based extracts from plants such as stinging
nettle, horse tail, comfrey, and clover. A common method is to stuff a
barrel about three-quarters full of fresh green plant material, then
top off the barrel with tepid water. The tea is allowed to ferment at
ambient temperatures for 3 to 10 days. The finished product is
strained, then diluted in proportions of 1:10 or 1:5 and used as a
foliar spray or soil drench. Herbal teas provide a supply of soluble
nutrients as well as bioactive plant compounds.


--
Thanks,
PC

He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch

We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. - Thomas A Edison

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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

2006-04-18 Thread bob allen

Robert,
nettles contain histamine-like compounds which cause serious irritation 
to tissues of higher animals.  I wonder if your steep would be useful as 
an insect antifeedant on garden plants?

BTW, I like milkweed buds similarly prepared- they're a little like 
brussel sprouts.


robert luis rabello wrote:
 Hello everyone!
 
   We've been intending to harvest wild stinging nettles for awhile now, 
 but it's been rainy for the last week and we haven't gone for a  walk 
 uphill where the nettles grow.  This morning, however, my sweetheart 
 and I managed to find some time.  We collected a grocery bag full of 
 nettle tips (we only harvest the tender parts at the end of the plant 
 stems, just before the flowers come out), which is roughly enough for 
 one family sized serving.
 
   After blanching, nettles are tender and absolutely delicious!  I like 
 the flavor better than spinach, which I prefer raw, and any recipe 
 that calls for spinach basically tastes better with nettles.  However, 
 every time my sweetheart blanches the nettles, we're left with a very 
 dark green tea.
 
   I'd hate to throw this down the drain, but I don't REALLY want to 
 drink it, either.  (It tastes disgusting, and even my cats won't touch 
 it!)  Am I better to water my plants with this, or should I just put 
 it on my compost pile.  Any advice?
 
 
 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca
 
 Ranger Supercharger Project Page
 http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
 
 
 
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-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

Mike Weaver wrote:

 Fiddlehead ferns and cat tails...

Those grow around here too!

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

2006-04-18 Thread Hakan Falk

Mike,

It was little sarcasm and playing on that the lack of advance of
liberty, is currently called freedom. I have no answer of why it is
such a lack of advance in liberty and so much talk of freedom.

US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay
after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I
doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than
the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Until
then, US will continue with self inflicting wounds and destroying
their friends, it is nothing to do about it. In this case sarcasm is
as usual a way to survive with at least some of the senses intact.

Hakan

At 20:33 18/04/2006, you wrote:
Hakan,

When I opened this message, I could smell a little sarcasm but, I'm
at a loss as to why. There might be a little misunderstanding here
since (I think) we are on the same side of the issue(s).

My previous post was in the form of a question. Do you have an answer?

Mike

Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Mike,

Now I finally got it and understand the meaning of freedom versus
liberty. Freedom as practiced in US at the moment, also means freedom
from responsibility and accountability.

Liberty do carry some expectations on responsibility and
accountability, which are the parts that US lacks at the moment.

Took some time to catch, but I guess that it is expected from
ignorant foreigners like me.

Hakan

At 18:17 18/04/2006, you wrote:
Redler,

why do you hate freedom so much?

Get with the program.

Michael Redler wrote:

The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world.

- George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September
21, 2004)

FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc.

So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about the advance
of liberty?

Mike

http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b

*/Mike Weaver /* wrote:

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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

bob allen wrote:

 Robert,
 nettles contain histamine-like compounds which cause serious irritation 
 to tissues of higher animals.  I wonder if your steep would be useful as 
 an insect antifeedant on garden plants?

That's an interesting possibility.  I wonder what a foliar spray of 
nettle juice would do to the aphids that have infested my trees in 
years past . . .  (Ah, but then what would happen to the predatory wasps?)


 BTW, I like milkweed buds similarly prepared- they're a little like 
 brussel sprouts.

Really?  I haven't seen any milkweed around here, but I think your 
Gulf Coast climate is warmer than the one I live in.

Thanks for the advice!  I'm going to give it a try!

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

Hakan Falk wrote:


 US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay 
 after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I 
 doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than 
 the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. 

Are you kidding?  We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and 
after them, Jenna and Barbara.  We could have a Bush family dynasty 
for better than 50 years over here!



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

Paul S Cantrell wrote:


 It's full of nutrients and that would make any plant happy.
 
 quoted from:
 http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Organics/CompostMulch/CompostTea/OtherTeas.htm
  Herbal Tea
 
 These include plant-based extracts from plants such as stinging
 nettle, horse tail, comfrey, and clover. A common method is to stuff a
 barrel about three-quarters full of fresh green plant material, then
 top off the barrel with tepid water. The tea is allowed to ferment at
 ambient temperatures for 3 to 10 days. The finished product is
 strained, then diluted in proportions of 1:10 or 1:5 and used as a
 foliar spray or soil drench. Herbal teas provide a supply of soluble
 nutrients as well as bioactive plant compounds.

Wow!  So it's powerful stuff, then, and I shouldn't waste it down the 
drain.  Thanks for the info!

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

Not Neil

robert luis rabello wrote:

Hakan Falk wrote:


  

US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay 
after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I 
doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than 
the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. 



   Are you kidding?  We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and 
after them, Jenna and Barbara.  We could have a Bush family dynasty 
for better than 50 years over here!



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

2006-04-18 Thread Hakan Falk


Bob,

Young light green spring nettle has not developed any tissue 
irritating compounds
and can be cooked and used instead of spinach. This without any 
special preparation.
Taste better and have a higher content of useful vitamins and iron. 
In the past it was
very common spring delicatessen in Sweden. Today you get it only if 
you pick and
cook yourself or at the few best and exclusive restaurants.

Hakan


At 21:24 18/04/2006, you wrote:
Robert,
nettles contain histamine-like compounds which cause serious irritation
to tissues of higher animals.  I wonder if your steep would be useful as
an insect antifeedant on garden plants?

BTW, I like milkweed buds similarly prepared- they're a little like
brussel sprouts.


robert luis rabello wrote:
  Hello everyone!
 
We've been intending to harvest wild stinging nettles for 
 awhile now,
  but it's been rainy for the last week and we haven't gone for a  walk
  uphill where the nettles grow.  This morning, however, my sweetheart
  and I managed to find some time.  We collected a grocery bag full of
  nettle tips (we only harvest the tender parts at the end of the plant
  stems, just before the flowers come out), which is roughly enough for
  one family sized serving.
 
After blanching, nettles are tender and absolutely 
 delicious!  I like
  the flavor better than spinach, which I prefer raw, and any recipe
  that calls for spinach basically tastes better with nettles.  However,
  every time my sweetheart blanches the nettles, we're left with a very
  dark green tea.
 
I'd hate to throw this down the drain, but I don't REALLY want to
  drink it, either.  (It tastes disgusting, and even my cats won't touch
  it!)  Am I better to water my plants with this, or should I just put
  it on my compost pile.  Any advice?
 
 
  robert luis rabello
  The Edge of Justice
  Adventure for Your Mind
  http://www.newadventure.ca
 
  Ranger Supercharger Project Page
  http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

...agreed.MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Mike,It was "little" sarcasm and playing on that the lack of advance of liberty, is currently called "freedom". I have no answer of why it is such a lack of advance in liberty and so much talk of freedom.US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Until then, US will continue with self inflicting wounds and destroying their friends, it is nothing to do about it. In this case sarcasm is as usual a way to survive with at least some of the senses intact.HakanAt
 20:33 18/04/2006, you wrote:Hakan,When I opened this message, I could smell a little sarcasm but, I'm at a loss as to why. There might be a little misunderstanding here since (I think) we are on the same side of the issue(s).My previous post was in the form of a question. Do you have an answer?MikeHakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:Mike,Now I finally got it and understand the meaning of freedom versusliberty. Freedom as practiced in US at the moment, also means freedomfrom responsibility and accountability.Liberty do carry some expectations on responsibility andaccountability, which are the parts that US lacks at the moment.Took some time to catch, but I guess that it is expected fromignorant foreigners like me.HakanAt 18:17 18/04/2006, you
 wrote: Redler,  why do you hate freedom so much?  Get with the program.  Michael Redler wrote:"The advance of liberty is the path to both a safer and better world." - George W. Bush, Speech to United Nations General Assembly (September   21, 2004) 1.) 1% testing of US cattle for mad cow disease/"shares" risk with Japan   2.) World Health Organization ranks US 37 in health care quality   3.) Rumsfeld makes millions from sale of bird flu vaccine   4.) December, 2001: United States' withdrawal from the 1972   Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty   5.) November, 2001: A 10-year-old program to help Russians prevent   theft of nuclear warheads and weapons-grade uranium and plutonium
 was   reduced by $20 million.   6.) "Clear Skies" weaken and delay health protections already required   under the law.   7.) EPA "C.H.E.E.R.S." CHEMICAL INDUSTRY TO STUDY EFFECTS OF KNOWN   TOXIC CHEMICALS ON CHILDREN FEMA, FDA, USDA, etc, etc, etc. So...looking back at the quote, what does this say about "the advance   of liberty"? Mike Clear skies ref: http://www.nrdc.org/air/pollution/qbushplan.asp   C.H.E.E.R.S. ref: http://www.organicconsumers.org/epa-alert.htm   WHO ref: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html   Bird Flu ref: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0312-06.htm   ABM ref: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/rec.bush.abm/
   prevent theft of nuclear warheads ref: http://www.ransac.org/Projects%20and%20Publications/News/Nuclear%20News/2001/11_13_01.html#1b */Mike Weaver /* wrote: *JAPANESE OFFICIALS RESIGN OVER U.S. MAD COW DEBACLE*   Despite new cases of Mad Cow disease surfacing in the U.S., Japan is   reopening its borders to American beef. As a result of the policy   decision half of the members of Japan's beef-safety government   advisory[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

2006-04-18 Thread Chip Mefford

Mike Weaver wrote:
 In the US pawnshops are good source of good tools
 
Having had a lot of tools stolen over the years,
and having actually recoved a stolen rotary
hammer from a pawn shop, (had to buy it, couldn't
prove it was mine) I don't consider pawn shop
tools very safe tool karma :)



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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

2006-04-18 Thread mark manchester

Hi Robert!

 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:16:53 -0700
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

 mark manchester wrote:

 Quickly replying!  I love nettle tea, I grow nettles just so I can have
 fresh tea, and it's so good for you, iron and D and all that.  Or try making
 Pho with it, if you ever tire of beef or shrimp pho.  The chile sauce, fish
 socks (sauce of course, but it has a certain smelll), lime chunks, etc.
 that goes with traditional pho soup... this is a great application.

 I don't eat anything that had brown eyes and a mom, so no beef for
 me!  Also, I stay away from bottom feeders.  I've never tried pho
 before--it's a kind of Vietnamese noodle soup, is it not?

Corecty-poo.  A street food, breakfast lunch or dinner.  Fantastic flagship
of a great cuisine, with spice, fresh herbs, noodles, stock and protein of
different kinds.  Yum!

 I'm feeling sensitive because I just made my first batch of tea yesterday
 and have been basking in springtime.

 Ok, I'll take your word that it's healthy (it certainly LOOKS
 healthy), but the water is FULL of bugs.  I suppose I could strain
 them out, but I can't STAND the flavor of the tea.

 But Robert, ohmygawd, it never OCCURRED to me to eat the nettles!  Thanks!
 Just a light flip-fry, I suppose, maybe garlic.  Just like rapini?

 My sweetheart did a butter / olive oil / garlic stir fry in a really
 hot pan for lunch.  It was delicious!  One of the nice things about
 nettles is that they suppress appetite, so I'm feeling nice and
 content right now.

 We're trying to cut out sweets and exercise more regularly.  Diabetes
 runs in both our families, so we need to be careful that our body
 masses don't creep up with age, and we'd would like our boys to grow
 up eating more sensibly than is the case for most of the population in
 our area.

Right on!

Nettles grow wild around here, and they're VERY abundant
 among the shaded, north-facing slopes rising above our subdivision.
 We can only harvest them for a short time while they're tender, so NOW
 is the time for us to cut nettles.  A friend, who goes on a walk every
 day, takes a bag with her and fills one up every day.  In a two or
 three week period of time, she collects enough to freeze for the year
 and enjoys eating nettles in every season.

Brilliant.  I just tried 'em in the garlic version, adding chiles and lemon
zest.  Yipers!.  Thanks for this great tip!

Also, I'm deeply jealous of your garden, thanks for all the news there.

 I still can't bring myself to do a horsetail stir fry . . .  We hae
 PLENTY of that around here too!

New to me too.

Cheers, Jesse

 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca

 Ranger Supercharger Project Page
 http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/

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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

That was YOUR hammer?

Oops...

Chip Mefford wrote:

Mike Weaver wrote:
  

In the US pawnshops are good source of good tools



Having had a lot of tools stolen over the years,
and having actually recoved a stolen rotary
hammer from a pawn shop, (had to buy it, couldn't
prove it was mine) I don't consider pawn shop
tools very safe tool karma :)



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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

2006-04-18 Thread D. Mindock


  We desperately need real election campaign reform here, otherwise
 we will continue to end up selecting the corporate endorsed proxy we
hope will do the least amount of damage.
It is a very sad state that we're in here. I wince anytime I see our
War President on TV. He is the ultimate hypocrite.
   I don't see how another Bush could have a chance to be elected
but until we get election reform AND voting machines that aren't hackable
with paper audit trail, well, the thought is too much to entertain for even 
a nanosecond
without feeling some discomfort.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?


 Hakan Falk wrote:


 US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay
 after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I
 doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than
 the hope that next election will be more kind to the world.

 Are you kidding?  We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and
 after them, Jenna and Barbara.  We could have a Bush family dynasty
 for better than 50 years over here!



 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.newadventure.ca

 Ranger Supercharger Project Page
 http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

2006-04-18 Thread MALCOLM MACLURE

The juice from rhubarb leaves, boiled up  strained, is supposed to make a
good natural insecticide too, just don't use the boiling pan for food again!


Nettles contain methanoic acid (formic acid)- that's the irritant /
insecticide. But rhubarb leaves contain mainly oxalic acid  malic acid.
Oxalic acid is quite toxic!

As far as the wasps go, I think there is plenty more around for them to
find.

Malcolm




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert luis
rabello
Sent: 18 April 2006 21:44
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

bob allen wrote:

 Robert,
 nettles contain histamine-like compounds which cause serious irritation 
 to tissues of higher animals.  I wonder if your steep would be useful as 
 an insect antifeedant on garden plants?

That's an interesting possibility.  I wonder what a foliar spray of 
nettle juice would do to the aphids that have infested my trees in 
years past . . .  (Ah, but then what would happen to the predatory wasps?)


 BTW, I like milkweed buds similarly prepared- they're a little like 
 brussel sprouts.

Really?  I haven't seen any milkweed around here, but I think your 
Gulf Coast climate is warmer than the one I live in.

Thanks for the advice!  I'm going to give it a try!

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/




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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

Hakan Falk wrote:


 Young light green spring nettle has not developed any tissue 
 irritating compounds

Well, my sweetheart got pricked by one of those young plants this 
morning!  She wanted to go wading through a whole patch of the stuff 
and would have, had I not warned her against it.  (And she's the one 
who grew up in BC!)


 In the past it was
 very common spring delicatessen in Sweden. Today you get it only if 
 you pick and
 cook yourself or at the few best and exclusive restaurants.

I really like the flavor.  What's nice, is that it tastes better 
cooked than spinach, which I prefer raw.  I wouldn't want to eat raw 
nettles, though!

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] A little (more) clarification

2006-04-18 Thread Bob Molloy

Hi y'all,
   I'd say Rudyard was laughing (he had a great capacity for
humour) at the misnomer we have made of his White Man's Burden.
Judging out of context is like shooting fish in a barrel. Kipling lived and
wrote in a time of Empire, and what he was trying to do was set a few ground
rules within the context of Empire. For their time, and within the limits of
the age, the rules had merit. His White Man's Burden was written in 1899 in
response to the American invasion of the Philippines. His hope was that
Americans would be humble in their might and sparing of their use of power.
Written more than a century ago, it is eerily prescient of the present
debacle in Iraq.

The actual words are:

Take up the White Man's Burden -
Send forth the best ye breed -
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captive's need;
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild -
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

Take up the White Man's Burden -
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain,
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's Burden,
The savage wars of peace -
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch Sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hope to nought.

Take up the White Man's Burden -
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper -
The tale of common things,
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's Burden -
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
And the hate of those ye guard -
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah slowly) towards the light:-
Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?

Take up the White Man's Burden-
Ye dare not stoop to less -
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent sullen peoples
Shall weigh your Gods and you.

Take up your White Man's Burden -
Have done with childish days -
The lightly proffered laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgement of your peers!

Regards,
Bob.

- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification


 Rudtard Kipling is rolling is his grave but William Easterly probably
 approves of pretty much everything you've said.

 Michael Redler wrote:

  I just wanted to chime in here.
 
  Keith wrote:
 
  It reached a stage here where the list would not have
  survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there,
  we didn't just make them up.
 
  It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression,
  screening all posts before distribution (for example).
 
  This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective
  at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to
  participate in maintaining continuity.
 
  Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help notice the
  similarities between your views and the ideology driving the White
  Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which we, in
  the US, have been indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to question
  the perceived credibility and legacy left behind by people like
  McCarthy and accept the fact that it's not acceptable to steer the
  culture, economy and government of another country simply because you
  feel you're better.
 
  You wrote: Our right to determine the direction of our life today is
  unparalleled in human history.
 
  So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta was
  just a piece of paper (if I can borrow an expression from our
  president).
 
  There have been and are, better examples of democracy in human history
  than the republic we Americans pretend to push on others in the
  process of building an empire.
 
  Do some research on our Constitution and it's origins. It will lead
  you in a few directions - one of which is toward the Iroquois nation.
  Ask an Iroquois about their right to determine their life - if you
  can find one. You talk about the reassignment of land for the greater
  good but conveniently under emphasize the eradication of those people
  in the process of fulfilling that illusion.
 
 
  Mike
 
 
  */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 
  Hello Kim
 
  Greetings,
  I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well.
 
  I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and
  dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with you read
  quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to backpedal
  her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of

Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

MALCOLM MACLURE wrote:

 The juice from rhubarb leaves, boiled up  strained, is supposed to make a
 good natural insecticide too, just don't use the boiling pan for food again!

I have a pot that I've used for experimenting with newspaper that 
will probably work well.  We have rhubarb in our garden.

 Nettles contain methanoic acid (formic acid)- that's the irritant /
 insecticide. But rhubarb leaves contain mainly oxalic acid  malic acid.
 Oxalic acid is quite toxic!
 
 As far as the wasps go, I think there is plenty more around for them to
 find.

My sweetheart dumped the nettle tea on her outdoor plants while I was 
working with students this afternoon.  I'll have to wait for the next 
batch to try it on the aphids.  (They haven't shown up yet, but I'm 
sure it's just a matter of time.)

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice

mark manchester wrote:

(Nettle stir fry)

 Brilliant.  I just tried 'em in the garlic version, adding chiles and lemon
 zest.  Yipers!.  Thanks for this great tip!

Your version sounds yummy, too!  We'll have to try that one.

 Also, I'm deeply jealous of your garden, thanks for all the news there.

Some of the local young people have apparently found our raised beds 
and garden area the perfect place to play.  I'm a little dismayed at 
their lack of judgment right now, but I'd rather have kids playing in 
my yard than throwing things at my house!  Tomorrow it will be a 
morning of lawn aerating, followed by a few hours of weeding and 
compost management.

I hate lawn.

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press

2006-04-18 Thread Rexis Tree

Sound like he just wanna sell his product. And wishfully hope that we can help him to boost his sale.Have we even see JourneyToForever complaining their effort spent to collect, make and test biodiesel, effort to support a website and a mailling list? Complaining about no big institude, no public money supporting them? And saying anything like all biodiesel processors are so expensive, they goes in millions of dollar? And charging us any penny for us to access on any biodiesel recipe or many other wonderful thing? No at all! There is just a donate button on the site, and everything else is free, not even a pop up banner! Well done.
Regards,Rexis
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Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool

2006-04-18 Thread Zeke Yewdall

That's why I try to engrave all of my tools... so I can prove their
mine if they get stolen.  Although I hadn't marked my new angle
grinder this spring when it got swiped out of my truck parked in the
street in front of my own house.  I'm not used to actually locking any
of my vehicals, but I also typically drive cars that look like they
wouldn't be worth the trouble of stealing.  The work truck's
different...

On 4/18/06, Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Mike Weaver wrote:
  In the US pawnshops are good source of good tools
 
 Having had a lot of tools stolen over the years,
 and having actually recoved a stolen rotary
 hammer from a pawn shop, (had to buy it, couldn't
 prove it was mine) I don't consider pawn shop
 tools very safe tool karma :)



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Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press

2006-04-18 Thread Jason Katie

Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal 
does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt 
realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, 
he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his 
money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable 
variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself.

(Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it 
, keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any 
way.)

--- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press


 Hi all

 The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in
 the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the
 discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages
 in archives.

 I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want
 to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could
 discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion.

 I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil 
 press.

 But I haven't heard from him again.

 Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I
 shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it
 anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can
 change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me.

 He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't
 addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting
 back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks
 the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on
 a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate
 Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free
 online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg
 Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free
 online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a
 staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on
 selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can
 put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways.

 In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting
 oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial
 revolution.

 The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform
 including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new
 one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time
 Pannirselvam mentioned this:

 we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so
 simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls ,
 future the sunflower and also the castor oil 

 I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a
 future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press.

 Here's his email, below.

 Best

 Keith


Dear Keith,

I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I
am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a
small press.

I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let
me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press.
I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell
the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the
poorest a future.

I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in
1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am
still working in that field.

In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No
big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to
develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the
possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil,
medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil
for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any,
often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from
seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy
on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value
added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as
a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses
are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the
cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments
(including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not
all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed
the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided not to
take all these hours into account and keep the price of the Piteba
press low. I produce the press myself in my own new work shop,
because local manufacturers were too expensive for

Re: [Biofuel] A little (more) clarification