Re: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...was Re: {Disarmed} Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt"

[Mike Weaver]

Jason!

I'm not fat.

-Weaver

Jason& Katie wrote:

>the truest and best answer to any TEOTWAWKI situation in america is to start 
>farms that grow fruits, wildgrasses, vegetables, oil crops, sugar crops, 
>meat animals, and trees...oh wait WE CANT, that takes work and most fat lazy 
>americans wont want to be inconvenienced by some dirty work. (this is 
>assuming america sticks its nose ito something that gets us our neck 
>snapped, and considering our track record of late i wouldnt be surprised.)
>Jason
>ICQ#:  154998177
>MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>- Original Message - 
>From: "doug swanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 7:14 PM
>Subject: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...was Re: {Disarmed} Telegraph - US 
>"could be going bankrupt"
>
>
>  
>
>>I agree that in tight times, basic or even primitive skills are more
>>valuable than gold.  Basics in Agriculture, animal husbandry, health
>>maintenance, knowing how to preserve food without supplies you'd have to
>>get at a grocer's store, blacksmithing, wood working, etc. are all
>>skills that should be present in what I see as being a new birth of
>>communities which will establish themselves once TEOTWAWKI happens.
>>
>>Energy systems can be a large part of this, since my wood heater
>>currently relies on a chainsaw to supply fuel, and my biodiesel relies
>>on restaurant "wastes" and petro-derived methanol, and industry produced
>>hydroxides, I still don't feel that my current situation is
>>sustainable.  Solar makes a lot of sense in my location, and I've been
>>working in that direction, but with a twist.  The 10' parabolic
>>collector can collect a lot of heat, and rather than convert it
>>immediately to electricity, which I'd then have to store in some sort of
>>battery (with all the problems that batteries come with, ie. disposal
>>when they don't work anymore, and then having to acquire new ones..., )
>>it makes better sense to store the heat from the collector in 55 gallon
>>drums of water, which can actually make up the rear greenhouse wall...
>>
>>I've been studying Stirling engines for some time now, guess I've read
>>everything that Google can show me about them, crammed all the ideas
>>into my head, noted the major disadvantages of most of them, (They've
>>got to be airtight, precision power piston, most aren't self-starting,
>>etc...) and have come up with a design that addresses these problems,
>>and eliminates them by integrating much of the engine into 3 moving
>>parts.  Heat goes in, electricity comes out.  I really would like to
>>build the prototype, but can't afford a machine shop to make a couple of
>>its parts.  Maybe someone on this list has the right tools to make the
>>parts, and would like to see more detailed plans on this.  Eventually,
>>when a working prototype is producing electricity, the plans with step
>>by step guidance will be under the "open information license"  The point
>>of the whole system is that wherever possible, the parts should be stuff
>>that can be found at the junkyard, and that when completed, a home power
>>generation system is running for under 3-400 bucks.  Adding another
>>collector just for home heat would be even simpler, under floor heat
>>circulation would increase the cost due to plumbing, thermostat control,
>>etc., but if the hot water was just circulated through a radiator
>>(junkyard again) with a fan behind it, the home could be comfortable
>>without huge expense.
>>
>>The efficiency of a Stirling engine makes it a potential candidate for a
>>hybrid vehicle, and I've been working on something along that line also,
>>but first things first...
>>
>>Any ideas are welcome, anything I can do to help pull us out of the mess
>>this planet is in, I will do.
>>
>>doug swanson
>>
>>
>>
>>Jason& Katie wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>you dont need money if you can supply a need. i know more than just fuel, 
>>>i
>>>can build just about anything a person would have as a daily need. house,
>>>furniture, small macines, engine repair, anyone with a skill is pretty 
>>>well
>>>safe. it is the people who have never had to work a day in their life 
>>>(CEO's
>>>and politicians) that are screwed.
>>>Jason
>>>ICQ#:  154998177
>>>MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>- Original Message - 
>>>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:01 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
Um, it's not really "they" it's "us" too...

Jason& Katie wrote:





>good. its about time. if i were to spend money like that, and then
>piddle away my savings and retirement, i would have been bankrupt 2 or
>3 times in the last year, so why should they get away with it?
>
>Jason
>ICQ#:  154998177
>MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>   - Original Message -
>   *From:* Kirk McLoren 
>   

Re: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...was Re: {Disarmed} Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt"

[Logan vilas]

Hey Doug,

I have some small machine equipment and some reasonable priced
machine shops in my area, If I can't make it I'm sure I can have it made. I
am interested in stirling engines for the exact same use. If the plans look
good to me I might be willing to build a prototype at my expense and will
gladly let you know how it works or possibly ship it for your testing.

Everyone Else,
http://www.lindsaybks.com/
This Site Has some great books at really good prices, I highly
recommend the Dave Gingery Series. It includes Sand Casting, Making a Metal
Shaper, Lathe, Milling machine, Drill Press, Accessories, and Sheet Metal
Brake from scrap. The plans can be size up easily and everything can be done
really low budget. There is also many other books, all the ones I've gotten
have been on metal working. Right now I'm working on a furnace that will
hold 75lbs of molten aluminum, and turn around the spot. From one of the
local machine shops I have a supply of about 400lbs of alum turnings a month
all I have to do is go pick them up. They use only 6061 and have one machine
that turns out the same part 8 hours a day 7 days a week. So it's a good
clean source for strong castings.

Logan Vilas

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of doug swanson
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 7:14 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...was Re: {Disarmed} Telegraph - US
"could be going bankrupt"

I agree that in tight times, basic or even primitive skills are more 
valuable than gold.  Basics in Agriculture, animal husbandry, health 
maintenance, knowing how to preserve food without supplies you'd have to 
get at a grocer's store, blacksmithing, wood working, etc. are all 
skills that should be present in what I see as being a new birth of 
communities which will establish themselves once TEOTWAWKI happens.

Energy systems can be a large part of this, since my wood heater 
currently relies on a chainsaw to supply fuel, and my biodiesel relies 
on restaurant "wastes" and petro-derived methanol, and industry produced 
hydroxides, I still don't feel that my current situation is 
sustainable.  Solar makes a lot of sense in my location, and I've been 
working in that direction, but with a twist.  The 10' parabolic 
collector can collect a lot of heat, and rather than convert it 
immediately to electricity, which I'd then have to store in some sort of 
battery (with all the problems that batteries come with, ie. disposal 
when they don't work anymore, and then having to acquire new ones..., ) 
it makes better sense to store the heat from the collector in 55 gallon 
drums of water, which can actually make up the rear greenhouse wall... 

I've been studying Stirling engines for some time now, guess I've read 
everything that Google can show me about them, crammed all the ideas 
into my head, noted the major disadvantages of most of them, (They've 
got to be airtight, precision power piston, most aren't self-starting, 
etc...) and have come up with a design that addresses these problems, 
and eliminates them by integrating much of the engine into 3 moving 
parts.  Heat goes in, electricity comes out.  I really would like to 
build the prototype, but can't afford a machine shop to make a couple of 
its parts.  Maybe someone on this list has the right tools to make the 
parts, and would like to see more detailed plans on this.  Eventually, 
when a working prototype is producing electricity, the plans with step 
by step guidance will be under the "open information license"  The point 
of the whole system is that wherever possible, the parts should be stuff 
that can be found at the junkyard, and that when completed, a home power 
generation system is running for under 3-400 bucks.  Adding another 
collector just for home heat would be even simpler, under floor heat 
circulation would increase the cost due to plumbing, thermostat control, 
etc., but if the hot water was just circulated through a radiator 
(junkyard again) with a fan behind it, the home could be comfortable 
without huge expense.

The efficiency of a Stirling engine makes it a potential candidate for a 
hybrid vehicle, and I've been working on something along that line also, 
but first things first...

Any ideas are welcome, anything I can do to help pull us out of the mess 
this planet is in, I will do.

doug swanson



Jason& Katie wrote:

>you dont need money if you can supply a need. i know more than just fuel, i

>can build just about anything a person would have as a daily need. house, 
>furniture, small macines, engine repair, anyone with a skill is pretty well

>safe. it is the people who have never had to work a day in their life
(CEO's 
>and politicians) that are screwed.
>Jason
>ICQ#:  154998177
>MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarme

Re: [Biofuel] GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now "the first choice"

[E. C.]

LOL!
... the Mike(s) aren't the only ones -- but Jason, you
left out another essential: a pepper-shaker!  LOL

Seriously, tho -- I agree whole-heartedly, as we
strive to look backward into the future, keeping
foremost in our minds the slogan of sustainability:
LESS IS MORE
LESS, BUT BETTER

Namaste,
E. Allen C.

--- Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> i dont really understand why genetically engineered
> food became popular 
> anyway, why didnt they just do it like farmers have
> for centuries and breed 
> their plants by hand. even Darwin did it on the HMS
> Beagle and all it took 
> was a pair of tweezers (dont laugh Mike(s) i know
> your perverted minds work 
> well together)
> Jason
> ICQ#:  154998177
> MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 8:21 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech
> now "the first choice"
> 
> 
> http://www.gmwatch.org/print-archive2.asp?arcid=6668
> 
> GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now "the first
> choice" (21/6/2006)
> 
> The Foundation on Economic Trends (FET), founded by
> the economist
> Jeremy Rifkin, who has highlighted the dangers of
> genetic engineering
> since the early 1980s, has recently completed a
> white paper on the
> next generation of biotech agriculture, called
> Marker Assisted
> Selection (MAS).
> 
> Rifkin, like many others, is convinced that MAS has
> eclipsed genetic
> engineering in its potential and that GE is a failed
> technology whose
> limitations are hotly denied by corporate-friendly
> scientists and the
> entrenched interests they represent.
> 
> Rifkin's FET sees its position paper as "opening up
> a new
> conversation in the debate surrounding GM food."
> Those boiotech
> proponents wedded to an already outmoded vision of
> the future of
> agriculture, centered on GE and patents, can be
> relied upon to do
> their damndest to try and drown out that
> conversation.
> 
> EXCERPTS: ...new cutting edge technologies have made
> gene splicing
> and transgenic crops obsolete and a serious
> impediment to scientific
> progress. The new frontier is called genomics and
> the new
> agricultural technology is called Marker Assisted
> Selection, or MAS.
> 
> Wally Beversdorf, former vice president of plant
> science research at
> Syngenta, candidly admitted that although the
> company was still
> engaged in GM technology, "marker assisted selection
> is the first
> choice" now in the company's research priorities.
> 
> European Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas
> raised the question
> of [GM] contamination of plant varieties and loss of
> biodiversity in
> a speech to environmental ministers of the 25 EU
> member states on
> April 5, 2006. Dimas told his colleagues that "GMO
> products raise a
> whole new series of possible risks to the
> environment, notably
> potential long term effects that could impact on
> biodiversity." Dimas
> said he was particularly concerned about loss of
> biodiversity because
> of the vast potential afforded by the new MAS
> technology... Dimas
> noted that "MAS technology is attracting
> considerable attention" and
> said that the European Union "should not ignore the
> use of 'upgraded'
> conventional varieties as an alternative to GM
> crops".
> ---
> 
> http://www.foet.org/FETSupportStatementonMAS.pdf
> 
> The Foundation on Economic Trends (FET) Statement of
> Support for
> Genomics Research and Marker Assisted Selection
> Technology within the
> Context of a Broader, More Holistic, Agroecological
> Approach to
> Farming
> 
> For years, the life science companies - Monsanto,
> Syngenta, Bayer,
> Pioneer, etc. - have argued that GM food is the next
> great scientific
> and technological revolution in agriculture, and the
> only efficient
> and cheap way to feed a growing population in a
> shrinking world.
> Non-governmental organizations (NGOs), including my
> own, The
> Foundation on Economic Trends, have been cast as the
> villains in this
> unfolding agricultural drama, and often categorized
> as modern
> versions of the English Luddites, accused of
> continually blocking
> scientific and technological progress because of
> their opposition to
> GM food.
> 
> Now, new cutting edge technologies have made gene
> splicing and
> transgenic crops obsolete and a serious impediment
> to scientific
> progress. The new frontier is called genomics and
> the new
> agricultural technology is called Marker Assisted
> Selection, or MAS.
> The new technology offers a sophisticated, new
> method to greatly
> accelerate classical breeding. A growing number of
> scientists believe
> that MAS - which is already being introduced into
> the market - will
> eventually replace GM food.
> 
> Scientists are mapping and sequencing the genomes of
> major crop
> species and using the findings to create a new
> approach to advancing
> agricultural technology. Instead of using molecular
> splicing
> techniques to transfer a

Re: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...was Re: {Disarmed} Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt"

[Jason& Katie]

is that a "no contest" plea?
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...was Re: {Disarmed} Telegraph - 
US "could be going bankrupt"


> Jason!
>
> I'm not fat.
>
> -Weaver
>
> Jason& Katie wrote:
>
>>the truest and best answer to any TEOTWAWKI situation in america is to 
>>start
>>farms that grow fruits, wildgrasses, vegetables, oil crops, sugar crops,
>>meat animals, and trees...oh wait WE CANT, that takes work and most fat 
>>lazy
>>americans wont want to be inconvenienced by some dirty work. (this is
>>assuming america sticks its nose ito something that gets us our neck
>>snapped, and considering our track record of late i wouldnt be surprised.)
>>Jason
>>ICQ#:  154998177
>>MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>- Original Message - 
>>From: "doug swanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 7:14 PM
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...was Re: {Disarmed} Telegraph - US
>>"could be going bankrupt"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I agree that in tight times, basic or even primitive skills are more
>>>valuable than gold.  Basics in Agriculture, animal husbandry, health
>>>maintenance, knowing how to preserve food without supplies you'd have to
>>>get at a grocer's store, blacksmithing, wood working, etc. are all
>>>skills that should be present in what I see as being a new birth of
>>>communities which will establish themselves once TEOTWAWKI happens.
>>>
>>>Energy systems can be a large part of this, since my wood heater
>>>currently relies on a chainsaw to supply fuel, and my biodiesel relies
>>>on restaurant "wastes" and petro-derived methanol, and industry produced
>>>hydroxides, I still don't feel that my current situation is
>>>sustainable.  Solar makes a lot of sense in my location, and I've been
>>>working in that direction, but with a twist.  The 10' parabolic
>>>collector can collect a lot of heat, and rather than convert it
>>>immediately to electricity, which I'd then have to store in some sort of
>>>battery (with all the problems that batteries come with, ie. disposal
>>>when they don't work anymore, and then having to acquire new ones..., )
>>>it makes better sense to store the heat from the collector in 55 gallon
>>>drums of water, which can actually make up the rear greenhouse wall...
>>>
>>>I've been studying Stirling engines for some time now, guess I've read
>>>everything that Google can show me about them, crammed all the ideas
>>>into my head, noted the major disadvantages of most of them, (They've
>>>got to be airtight, precision power piston, most aren't self-starting,
>>>etc...) and have come up with a design that addresses these problems,
>>>and eliminates them by integrating much of the engine into 3 moving
>>>parts.  Heat goes in, electricity comes out.  I really would like to
>>>build the prototype, but can't afford a machine shop to make a couple of
>>>its parts.  Maybe someone on this list has the right tools to make the
>>>parts, and would like to see more detailed plans on this.  Eventually,
>>>when a working prototype is producing electricity, the plans with step
>>>by step guidance will be under the "open information license"  The point
>>>of the whole system is that wherever possible, the parts should be stuff
>>>that can be found at the junkyard, and that when completed, a home power
>>>generation system is running for under 3-400 bucks.  Adding another
>>>collector just for home heat would be even simpler, under floor heat
>>>circulation would increase the cost due to plumbing, thermostat control,
>>>etc., but if the hot water was just circulated through a radiator
>>>(junkyard again) with a fan behind it, the home could be comfortable
>>>without huge expense.
>>>
>>>The efficiency of a Stirling engine makes it a potential candidate for a
>>>hybrid vehicle, and I've been working on something along that line also,
>>>but first things first...
>>>
>>>Any ideas are welcome, anything I can do to help pull us out of the mess
>>>this planet is in, I will do.
>>>
>>>doug swanson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jason& Katie wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
you dont need money if you can supply a need. i know more than just 
fuel,
i
can build just about anything a person would have as a daily need. 
house,
furniture, small macines, engine repair, anyone with a skill is pretty
well
safe. it is the people who have never had to work a day in their life
(CEO's
and politicians) that are screwed.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US "could be going 
bankrupt"






>Um, it's not really "they" it's "us" too...
>
>Jason& Katie wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>>good. it

[Biofuel] Hemorrhagic fever - Megadeath in Mexico

[Kirk McLoren]

  Discover Magazine Issues Feb-06 features Megadeath in MexicoEpidemics followed the Spanish arrival in the New World, but the worst killer may have been a shadowy native—a killer that could still be out there.By Bruce StutzDISCOVER Vol. 27 No. 02 | February 2006 | Anthropologyhttp://www.discover.com/issues/feb-06/features/megadeath-in-mexico/When Hernando Cortés and his Spanish army of fewer than a thousand men stormed into Mexico in 1519, the native population numbered about 22 million. By the end of the century, following a series of devastating epidemics, only 2 million people remained. Even compared with the casualties of
 the Black Death, the mortality rate was extraordinarily high. Mexican epidemiologist Rodolfo Acuña-Soto refers to it as the time of "megadeath." The toll forever altered the culture of Mesoamerica and branded the Spanish as the worst kind of conquerors, those from foreign lands who kill with their microbes as well as their swords.The notion that European colonialists brought sickness when they came to the New World was well established by the 16th century. Native populations in the Americas lacked immunities to common European diseases like smallpox, measles, and mumps. Within 20 years of Columbus's arrival, smallpox had wiped out at least half the people of the West Indies and had begun to spread to the South American mainland.In 1565 a Spanish royal judge who had investigated his country's colony in Mexico wrote:It is certain that from the day that D. Hernando Cortés, the Marquis del Valle, entered this
 land, in the seven years, more or less, that he conquered and governed it, the natives suffered many deaths, and many terrible dealings, robberies and oppressions were inflicted on them, taking advantage of their persons and their lands, without order, weight nor measure; . . . the people diminished in great number, as much due to excessive taxes and mistreatment, as to illness and smallpox, such that now a very great and notable fraction of the people are gone. . . .There seemed little reason to debate the nature of the plague: Even the Spanish admitted that European smallpox was the disease that devastated the conquered Aztec empire. Case closed.Then, four centuries later, Acuña-Soto improbably decided to reopen the investigation. Some key pieces of information—details that had been sitting, ignored, in the archives—just didn't add up. His studies of ancient documents revealed that the Aztecs were familiar with
 smallpox, perhaps even before Cortés arrived. They called it zahuatl. Spanish colonists wrote at the time that outbreaks of zahuatl occurred in 1520 and 1531 and, typical of smallpox, lasted about a year. As many as 8 million people died from those outbreaks. But the epidemic that appeared in 1545, followed by another in 1576, seemed to be another disease altogether. The Aztecs called those outbreaks by a separate name, cocolitzli. "For them, cocolitzli was something completely different and far more virulent," Acuña-Soto says. "Cocolitzli brought incomparable devastation that passed readily from one region to the next and killed quickly."After 12 years of research, Acuña-Soto has come to agree with the Aztecs: The cocolitzli plagues of the mid-16th century probably had nothing to do with smallpox. In fact, they probably had little to do with the Spanish invasion. But they probably did have an origin that is
 worth knowing about in 2006.A portly man with a full, close-cut dark beard, Acuna-Soto is a devoted scholar of all things Mexican. As we maneuver our way through the crowded streets jammed with taco stands around the General Hospital of Mexico, which serves Mexico City's poor and where Acuña-Soto often visits when not teaching at the National Autonomous University of Mexico, he effuses about everything from pre-Hispanic Mexican history to the quality of street-vendor tacos ("stay away from the salsa; it's got nearly as much bacteria as human feces"). When he was younger and thinner, Acuña-Soto says—before he went to Harvard University to study epidemiology and molecular biology—he interned as a physician in rural Chiapas, traveling by burro to patients in remote mountain villages.On our drive south to his home in Cuernavaca, he recalls how his life changed after his return to Mexico in 1984. "When I came back here
 from Harvard, there was a big devaluation of the peso. My grant proposals had been accepted, but there was no money."What might a restless epidemiologist do? With an eye toward writing an encyclopedia of Mexican diseases, Acuña-Soto began combing Mexico City's archives, researching the most famous epidemics, those that came after the Spanish conquistadores arrived.The Aztec kingdom then was the last in a line of Mesoamerican states that emerged, flourished, and then vanished over the course of 2,500 years. Borrowing from the preceding Olmec, Teotihuacán, Mayan, and Toltec traditions, the Aztecs studied science and cosmology, agriculture, engineering, art,

Re: [Biofuel] Home energy system ...re castings

[Kirk McLoren]

If you are serious about that endevour join  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HotAirEngineSociety/     there are several members who have built their own.     KirkLogan vilas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Hey Doug,I have some small machine equipment and some reasonable pricedmachine shops in my area, If I can't make it I'm sure I can have it made. Iam interested in stirling engines for the exact same use. If the plans lookgood to me I might be willing to build a prototype at my expense and willgladly let you know how it works or possibly ship it for your testing.Everyone Else,http://www.lindsaybks.com/This Site Has some great books at really good prices, I
 highlyrecommend the Dave Gingery Series. It includes Sand Casting, Making a MetalShaper, Lathe, Milling machine, Drill Press, Accessories, and Sheet MetalBrake from scrap. The plans can be size up easily and everything can be donereally low budget. There is also many other books, all the ones I've gottenhave been on metal working. Right now I'm working on a furnace that willhold 75lbs of molten aluminum, and turn around the spot. From one of thelocal machine shops I have a supply of about 400lbs of alum turnings a monthall I have to do is go pick them up. They use only 6061 and have one machinethat turns out the same part 8 hours a day 7 days a week. So it's a goodclean source for strong castings.Logan Vilas 
		Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1¢/min.___
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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Zeke Yewdall]

Actually, for most people on PV systems nowadays, I recommend going to Sears and getting the most efficient GE or Kenmore fridge.  They use about 30% more power than a Sunfrost, but cost about a third as much, and you can add a few extra solar panels for this.    Regular AC fridges used to be really bad, but in the last 5 years they've gotten decent...
On 7/16/06, Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jul 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote:> If I had the bucks I suppose all these hi tech appliances would be> nice.> Unfortunately I dont so I have to use what most people use.
I agree -- THOUSANDS of dollars for a refrigeratorsheesh!> I think if you pump your own water 30 kWhrs a day is more realistic.That's already on its own PV array :-)-K
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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Zeke Yewdall]

I wouldn't recommend the generator route, unless you have a really good soundproofing method  I just spent the weekend at a remote cabin, and it had a little PV system for lights and such.  But the machine shop there was designed back in the 70's before PV's were available, and it is all set up to run off a 4 cylinder gas generator.  Such as racket all day, in a place where normally you can't even hear any traffic or anything   It's not only the fossil fuels going into it, but also the noise coming out of it that makes me not like generators, and biofuels only solve part of the problem.    I would recommend using biofuels for any heat producing appliance (stove, space heating, dryer, etc), which will save immensly on the cost of the PV system.    Except for the workshop and motors, which I have to admit that I like too, it should be possible to run a perfectly modern house from about 
1.5kW of PV, or about $15,000.On 7/15/06, Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jul 15, 2006, at 6:27 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:> You need to talk to Zeke.  For those prices,> you could fly him out, have> him build you a system and fly back> and it would be STILL half as much!
>Yo, Zeke !!   Is that true?  I'm a big believerin "consultants", having been one myself inthe past. One warning, tho -- the bldg. dept.around here is REALLY up your armpit !!
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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Jason& Katie]

scratch and dent sales usually mark stuff down 30 
or 40%, if you are lucky (or sneaky and totally uninhibited) you could find (or 
"find/make") a high end fridge the same cost as a regular 
fridge.
JasonICQ#:  154998177MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Zeke Yewdall 
  
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to 
  Grid?
  Actually, for most people on PV systems nowadays, I recommend 
  going to Sears and getting the most efficient GE or Kenmore fridge.  They 
  use about 30% more power than a Sunfrost, but cost about a third as much, and 
  you can add a few extra solar panels for this.    Regular AC 
  fridges used to be really bad, but in the last 5 years they've gotten 
  decent... 
  On 7/16/06, Ken 
  Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  On 
Jul 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote:> If I had the 
bucks I suppose all these hi tech appliances would be> nice.> 
Unfortunately I dont so I have to use what most people use.I 
agree -- THOUSANDS of dollars for a refrigeratorsheesh!> 
I think if you pump your own water 30 kWhrs a day is more 
realistic.That's already on its own PV array 
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Re: [Biofuel] Hemorrhagic fever - Megadeath in Mexico

[Jesse Frayne]

Thanks Kirk for this interesting read.  A great
follow-up to Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" 
Thanks also to the Douglas Fir for their part in the
sleuthing.


--- Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>   
> 
> Discover Magazine Issues 
> Feb-06 
> features 
> Megadeath in Mexico
> 
> 
> 
> Epidemics followed the Spanish arrival in the New
> World, but the worst 
> killer may have been a shadowy native—a killer that
> could still be out 
> there.
> 
> By Bruce Stutz
> 
> DISCOVER Vol. 27 No. 02 | February 2006 |
> Anthropology
> 
> 
> 
>
http://www.discover.com/issues/feb-06/features/megadeath-in-mexico/
> 
> When Hernando Cortés and his Spanish army of fewer
> than a thousand men 
> stormed into Mexico in 1519, the native population
> numbered about 22 
> million. By the end of the century, following a
> series of devastating 
> epidemics, only 2 million people remained. Even
> compared with the 
> casualties of the Black Death, the mortality rate
> was extraordinarily 
> high. Mexican epidemiologist Rodolfo Acuña-Soto
> refers to it as the time 
> of "megadeath." The toll forever altered the culture
> of Mesoamerica and 
> branded the Spanish as the worst kind of conquerors,
> those from foreign 
> lands who kill with their microbes as well as their
> swords.
> 
> The notion that European colonialists brought
> sickness when they came to 
> the New World was well established by the 16th
> century. Native 
> populations in the Americas lacked immunities to
> common European 
> diseases like smallpox, measles, and mumps. Within
> 20 years of 
> Columbus's arrival, smallpox had wiped out at least
> half the people of 
> the West Indies and had begun to spread to the South
> American mainland.
> 
> In 1565 a Spanish royal judge who had investigated
> his country's colony 
> in Mexico wrote:
> 
> It is certain that from the day that D. Hernando
> Cortés, the Marquis del 
> Valle, entered this land, in the seven years, more
> or less, that he 
> conquered and governed it, the natives suffered many
> deaths, and many 
> terrible dealings, robberies and oppressions were
> inflicted on them, 
> taking advantage of their persons and their lands,
> without order, weight 
> nor measure; . . . the people diminished in great
> number, as much due to 
> excessive taxes and mistreatment, as to illness and
> smallpox, such that 
> now a very great and notable fraction of the people
> are gone. . . .
> 
> There seemed little reason to debate the nature of
> the plague: Even the 
> Spanish admitted that European smallpox was the
> disease that devastated 
> the conquered Aztec empire. Case closed.
> 
> Then, four centuries later, Acuña-Soto improbably
> decided to reopen the 
> investigation. Some key pieces of
> information—details that had been 
> sitting, ignored, in the archives—just didn't add
> up. His studies of 
> ancient documents revealed that the Aztecs were
> familiar with smallpox, 
> perhaps even before Cortés arrived. They called it
> zahuatl. Spanish 
> colonists wrote at the time that outbreaks of
> zahuatl occurred in 1520 
> and 1531 and, typical of smallpox, lasted about a
> year. As many as 8 
> million people died from those outbreaks. But the
> epidemic that appeared 
> in 1545, followed by another in 1576, seemed to be
> another disease 
> altogether. The Aztecs called those outbreaks by a
> separate name, 
> cocolitzli. "For them, cocolitzli was something
> completely different and 
> far more virulent," Acuña-Soto says. "Cocolitzli
> brought incomparable 
> devastation that passed readily from one region to
> the next and killed 
> quickly."
> 
> After 12 years of research, Acuña-Soto has come to
> agree with the 
> Aztecs: The cocolitzli plagues of the mid-16th
> century probably had 
> nothing to do with smallpox. In fact, they probably
> had little to do 
> with the Spanish invasion. But they probably did
> have an origin that is 
> worth knowing about in 2006.
> 
> A portly man with a full, close-cut dark beard,
> Acuna-Soto is a devoted 
> scholar of all things Mexican. As we maneuver our
> way through the 
> crowded streets jammed with taco stands around the
> General Hospital of 
> Mexico, which serves Mexico City's poor and where
> Acuña-Soto often 
> visits when not teaching at the National Autonomous
> University of 
> Mexico, he effuses about everything from
> pre-Hispanic Mexican history to 
> the quality of street-vendor tacos ("stay away from
> the salsa; it's got 
> nearly as much bacteria as human feces"). When he
> was younger and 
> thinner, Acuña-Soto says—before he went to Harvard
> University to study 
> epidemiology and molecular biology—he interned as a
> physician in rural 
> Chiapas, traveling by burro to patients in remote
> mountain villages.
> On our drive south to his home in Cuernavaca, he
> recalls how his life 
> changed after his return to Mexico in 1984. "When I
> came back here from 
> Harvard, there was a big devaluation of the peso. My
> grant pr

[Biofuel] Vanadium battery

[Kirk McLoren]

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php     A new mass energy storage technology is on the cusp of entering mainstream society. The Japanese are currently using it on a grand scale, the Canadians have comprehensively evaluated it and soon Australians will have the opportunity to replace their old lead-acid batteries with a Vanadium Redox Battery alternative. There are no emissions, no disposal issues, no loss of charge, the construction materials are 'green' and the battery can be charged and discharged simultaneously. So, is the Vanadium Battery as good as it sounds and more importantly, is it the solution to our energy storage problems?  Quite simply...Yes.  The potential of this system can be easily summed up in one word: 100% recharge/discharge. Well that's slightly more than one word,
 but still it is an impressive group of words. I'm a little excited here, so let me back track a little and explain the importance of Vanadium Batteries to our very existence.  It has been possible for quite some time to successfully gather energy through a variety of renewable energy sources, in particular solar and wind. The main problem however, which is also true for fossil fuel energy generation, is the storage of the energy. There is no point in generating surplus uber-watts on one sunny and windy day to find the next day is still and raining and worst of all there is no power to play the new DVD of Stainless Steel Rat on your suped-up 80 inch LCD screen (sorry...just wishful thinking). If the energy cannot be stored on the day of bountiful bliss than a renewable energy system is useless.  In small scale alternative energy systems usually found in off-grid houses, lead-acid batteries are commonly used to store energy. The main problem with this
 storage system is that lead-acid batteries aren't too efficient. In order to obtain the most cycles possible (300-1500), the batteries are designed to only use 10% of their storage capacity - that's like only being able to use your iPod for one hour instead of the battery's 10 hour capacity. If more energy is sucked out of them, the amount of times they can be recharged and discharged is drastically shortened. Large scale power companies also have a little problem with storage.   Basically, they can't be bothered. It's cheaper for them to estimate the daily power needs of a city and make sure that they produce enough electricity to satisfy all vested interests - that usually takes the form of direct support for industry not individual consumers as many North Americans are finding out on an all too regular basis.  Because a powerhouse can't instantaneously lower or raise output, at night there is usually surplus electricity and the crazy situation
 occurs where it is pumped into the ground. For all the skeptics out there mumbling conspiracy theory, treehugging pinky, just look it up in any dictionary under 'colossal waste'. Which brings me back to the amazing invention of the Vanadium Battery.  This battery, as the name so intelligently suggests, uses a metal called Vanadium. The soon-to-be Nobel Prize recipients (if there is any justice in this world) from Australia and Europe, have found a substance that can store energy indefinitely. On top of all that, it is possible to use 100% of the stored energy without any side effects. The number of times the Vanadium Battery can be recharged/discharged is also a tad worrying for other battery makers (over 10,000 plus cycles), who must be searching desperately for new employment opportunities - possibly in the oil industry . In all honesty the
 word 'battery' falls a little shy of an accurate description of this epoch-creating invention. In very basic terms (which is all I can manage after trying to read the manual) the Vanadium is stored in two separate containers in liquid form - one is charged with energy and one has a depleted energy charge. When new energy is gathered, non-charged Vanadium gets spinached-up and popeye's your uncle, you have lots of energy to expend on a 30 inch Cinema Display connected to 17 inch Powerbook playing Doom until your fingers hurt...um and ah all those other things that use power in a normal household, like lights, fridges, blah, blah, blah.  If you decide one day that you need a little more storage capacity, perhaps for that air-conditioner or hairdryer (for the uninitiated, the banes of lead-acid batteries), no worries, just get bigger storage tanks to hold more Vanadium and all of a sudden you have storage to spare. Try that with a lead-acid battery system. 
 On a final and semi-serious note (which is the best I can do after thinking about my dream Mac setup), Vanadium Batteries have profound implications for normal households that don't have an alternative energy system supplying power to their house. As Japan is demonstrating, the amount of energy that their power stations produce can be cut by 1/3 simply by storing their previously dumped excess nightly energy into

Re: [Biofuel] The truth about where to stand on global warming

[Appal Energy]

JJJN,

> I fully agree, but then I know some folks that will vote Republican to 
> save the Guns - and they hate everything else about Republicans.

"Democrats" aren't going to take anyone's guns away. Well, save for automatics, 
sawed-off shotguns and perhaps assault rifles. Any NRA-er who thinks otherwise 
isn't smart enough to be in possession of a gun permit, much less be allowed 
with 20 parsecs of a firearm.

By the by..., you do know that in the deep south, veiled "polite-speak" (code) 
for Negro/African-American/Black is "Democrat," don't you?

When many speak of "Democrats" in a snotty nosed manner it's almost always got 
a racial teint to it. In some respects, even if they're looking a white person 
straight in the face and blaming the "Democrats," they've actually got a lit 
fuse behind the mental curtain that's blaming blacks.

All a bit sad. Some kind of inside, twisted, cliquish joke. You'd think adults 
would grow out of it. I guess not. 

> I'm not sure I follow here, Would this be like the media driven 
> advertisement sector financed by the corporate greed sector pushing 
> people into the "waste lifestyle"? Or did I miss this one?

More like the PR offices in the corporate greed sector manipulating and 
creating wants/needs where none previously existed. Media is just the delivery 
mechanism.

Todd Swearingen





JJJN wrote:

>Todd,
>Points all well taken, see below.
>
>Appal Energy wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I would tend to believe that if you're expressing your belief / faith on 
>>paper, you should be the one to polish the words.
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>Well actually I am expressing a view point on Global Warming that 
>targets a specific audience.  The list has already given me several 
>angles that I can explore and incorporate, such as yours. By myself 
>only, you can see the example of the  narrow perspective that I thought 
>of beginning this thread.
>
>  
>
>>As for context, it's beyond me how those who are spiritually/religiously 
>>inclined fail to be the first on the "environmental bandwagon."
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>I fully agree, but then I know some folks that will vote Republican to 
>save the Guns - and they hate everything else about Republicans. They 
>only care about a single issue, while Bush sells of public lands where 
>they would use the guns to hunt. 
>
>  
>
>>A) Seems a trifle arrogant and presumptuous to destroy what was given to 
>>us by a creator (presuming that's a person's belief system).
>>
>>B) There's a difference between having "dominion" and destroying / 
>>desecrating. Something tells me that if there is a God, he or she is 
>>capable of knowing the difference and basing judgment on those who 
>>exercise indiscretion.
>>
>>C) For those who believe in the sanctity of life, there is an incumbent 
>>mindset that must include all life, not just that or those within our 
>>personal sphere of influence, nationality, creed or belief system. This 
>>includes future generations - those who are yet to exist - whose lives 
>>are being maimed, mangled or outright prevented by contemporary decision 
>>making, inclusive of consumer choices and favorite programming 
>>mechanisms. (Why do you think they call it "programming?")
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>I'm not sure I follow here, Would this be like the media driven 
>advertisement sector financed by the corporate greed sector pushing 
>people into the "waste lifestyle"? Or did I miss this one?
>
>  
>
>>D) For those who believe in the principles spoken of by their preferred 
>>deity, which is the greater evil? To end a life at gunpoint or other 
>>immediate fashion in the pursuit of self-interest or to end a life or 
>>multiple lives by poisoning the waters, air or land beneath our feet in 
>>the pursuit of self-interest?
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>It really is the big picture we so often miss, good point.
>
>  
>
>>But what the heck. What's a little autism, ashma, Minimata disease and 
>>leukemia amongst friends as long as we can fool ourselves into believing 
>>that we are civilized?
>>
>>Todd Swearingen
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>Thanks Todd, all good points and well taken.
>
>Jim
>
>  
>
>>Michael wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>Some comments added between
>>>***
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>Very Respectfully,
>>>
>>>Michael @ Http://RecoveryByDiscovery.com
>>>
>>>- Original Message - 
>>>From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: "BIO" 
>>>Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 3:56 PM
>>>Subject: [Biofuel] The truth about where to stand on global warming
>>>
>>>
>>>I wrote this, and it probably sounds self righteous and clumsy, perhaps
>>>some on the list could help me fix it up a bit. I plan on using it as a
>>>letter to the editor any help out there?
>>>
>>>A true Christian by faith (not by religion) must make choices based on
>>>the commandments of Christ first, man second. It is fortunate for
>>>Americans that their laws do not conflict with the commandments of
>>>Christ. How does choosing to serve Christ tie in with global warming?
>>>Perha

Re: [Biofuel] Vanadium battery

[D. Mindock]

Ref: Vanadium redox battery

This seems to be the battery we've all been waiting for. I wonder what'll it 
cost here in the US?  Peace, D. Mindock
More info at: http://www.answers.com/topic/vanadium-redox-battery



- Original Message - 
From: Kirk McLoren
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; biofuel
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Vanadium battery


http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php

A new mass energy storage technology is on the cusp of entering mainstream 
society. The Japanese are currently using it on a grand scale, the Canadians 
have comprehensively evaluated it and soon Australians will have the 
opportunity to replace their old lead-acid batteries with a Vanadium Redox 
Battery alternative. There are no emissions, no disposal issues, no loss of 
charge, the construction materials are 'green' and the battery can be 
charged and discharged simultaneously. So, is the Vanadium Battery as good 
as it sounds and more importantly, is it the solution to our energy storage 
problems?
Quite simply...Yes.
The potential of this system can be easily summed up in one word: 100% 
recharge/discharge. Well that's slightly more than one word, but still it is 
an impressive group of words. I'm a little excited here, so let me back 
track a little and explain the importance of Vanadium Batteries to our very 
existence.
It has been possible for quite some time to successfully gather energy 
through a variety of renewable energy sources, in particular solar and wind. 
The main problem however, which is also true for fossil fuel energy 
generation, is the storage of the energy. There is no point in generating 
surplus uber-watts on one sunny and windy day to find the next day is still 
and raining and worst of all there is no power to play the new DVD of 
Stainless Steel Rat on your suped-up 80 inch LCD screen (sorry...just 
wishful thinking). If the energy cannot be stored on the day of bountiful 
bliss than a renewable energy system is useless.
 

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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Appal Energy]

Ken,

> Still, it would be very silly to
> spend $10,000 to stay off-grid, only to find that I was not
> satisfied and end up spending the $17,000 to get PG&E also.

I guess that's why you need to size your consumption and determine where you 
can shave peak and continual use to determine your final costs.

> That's part of the problem -- I don't really know what level
> of inconvenience I'm willing to tolerate,

See above. There may be no "inconvenience" to tolerate. Besides, it's not a bad 
idea to remember the words of Socrates. "Hunger is good sauce." Same holds true 
for tightening the energy belt.

> Good question -- 15 kWh per day, give or take?   :-)

You could probably shave it down to 12 with a little effort, including an 
electric fridge.

I'm kind of curious though. If you don't have electricity to the manger yet, 
and your technically already off the grid by virtue of not having any 
substitute as of yet, just what have you been doing for power up to this point?

Or are you still applying the earth plaster and getting ready to wire the 
building?

Personally? You'll be a much happier camper if you stay off the grid. 
Mainstream isn't where it's at. For people who seem to have your penchant, me 
thinks you'd always kick yourself in the butt for not having a go at it right 
out of the chute.

Todd Swearingen




Ken Provost wrote:

>On Jul 16, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Appal Energy wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>>Well, since you invited the infusion of other's thought
>>patterns
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>I did indeed, Todd, and your thoughts as usual are cogent.
>It's true that the comforts of cheap electricity that I've enjoyed
>all my life has "raised the bar" of my imagined needs much
>higher than they probably are. Still, it would be very silly to
>spend $10,000 to stay off-grid, only to find that I was not
>satisfied and end up spending the $17,000 to get PG&E also.
>
>That's part of the problem -- I don't really know what level
>of inconvenience I'm willing to tolerate, so I'd prefer to err
>on the side of having excess capacity (which of course I
>don't have to use).  All your ideas are excellent, and many
>of them are already designed in. I expect to run house and
>shop on maybe 15 kWh per day average, which is much
>less than any home I've had before. But one could always
>do better.
>
>
>  
>
>>Just how much does a man or woman need to live, be
>>happy and be of service to others?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Good question -- 15 kWh per day, give or take?   :-)
>
>
>-K
>
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>
>
>
>
>  
>

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[Biofuel] Fw: The Force Is Not With Them

[D. Mindock]

BushCo is a paranoid schizo entity. It is based on zero-sum thinking and 
preference to use
force to solve all problems, both at home (intimidation, fear) and abroad 
(military).
Bush's heavy use of signing statements in essence says that he's free to do 
whatever he wants and that
no law is over him. Congress needs to take back all the concessions they've 
heaped on him,
and either censure or impeach him. But the Republican controlled Congress 
isn't going to do
this, even though Bush is ruining (has ruined?) the country both financially 
and as a society. The Democrats
must get control of both Houses of Congress in November and stop BushCo in 
its tracks.
Peace, D. Mindock


The Force Is Not With Them
By Tom Engelhardt
TomDispatch.com

Sunday 16 July 2006

The Middle East aflame and the Bush administration adrift.



So, as the world spins on a dime, where exactly are we?

As a man who is no fan of fundamentalists of any sort, let me offer a
proposition that might make some modest sense of our reeling planet.
Consider the possibility that the most fundamental belief, perhaps in all of
history, but specifically in these last catastrophic years, seems to be in
the efficacy of force - and the more of it the merrier. That deep belief in
force above all else is perhaps the monotheism of monotheisms, a faith
remarkably accepting of adherents of any other imaginable faith - or of no
other faith at all. Like many fundamentalist faiths, it is also resistant to
drawing any reasonable lessons from actual experience on this planet.

The Bush administration came to power as a fundamentalist regime; and
here I'm not referring to the Christian fundamentalist faith of our
President. After all, Karl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld, and our Vice President
seem not to be Christian fundamentalists any more than were Paul Wolfowitz
or Douglas Feith. Bush's top officials may not have agreed among themselves
on whether End Time would arrive, or even on the domestic social issues of
most concern to the Christian religious right in this country, but they were
all linked by a singular belief in the efficacy of force.

In fact, they believed themselves uniquely in possession of an ability
to project force in ways no other power on the planet or in history ever
could. While hardly elevating the actual military leadership of the country
(whom they were eager to sideline), they raised the all-volunteer American
military itself onto a pedestal and worshipped it as the highest tech, most
shock-and-awesome institution around. They were dazzled by the fact that it
was armed with the smartest, most planet-spanning, most destructive set of
weapons imaginable, and backed by an unparalleled military-industrial
complex as well as a "defense" budget that would knock anyone's socks off
(and their communications systems down). It was enough to dazzle the
administration's top officials with dreams of global domination; to fill
them with a vision of a planet-wide Pax Americana; to send them off to the
moon (which, by the way, was certainly militarizable).

Force, then, was their idol and they bowed down before it. When it came
to the loosing of that force (and the forces at their command), they were
nothing short of fervent utopians and blind believers. They were convinced
that with such force (and forces), they could reshape the world in just
about any way they wanted to fit their visionary desires.

And then, of course, came 9/11, the "Pearl Harbor" of this century.
Suddenly, they had a divine wind at their back, a terrified populace before
them ready to be led, and everything they believed in seemed just soS well,
possible. It was, in faith-based terms, a godsend. Not surprisingly, they
promptly began to prepare to act in the stead of an imperially angry god and
to bring the world - particularly its energy heartlands - to heel.

First, however, because they had long been People of the Word, they
created their sacred texts, their doctrine. In the form of "preventive war"
and keeping other potential superpowers or blocs of powers from ever rising
up to challenge the United States, they enshrined force at the apex of their
pantheon of deities in their National Security Strategy of 2002. (The term
"preventive war" was in itself reasonably unique. Usually even the most
aggressive dictators don't label their planned wars with terms that creep
right up to the edge of "aggressive" and then promote them that way to the
world.) At the same time, the President then began speaking out about the
need not to wait until the threat of destruction was upon us as in his 2002
State of the Union Address where he said: "We'll be deliberate, yet time is
not on our side. I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not
stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America
will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the
world's most destructive weapons."

Soon enough, his advisors began raising Iraqi mushroom clouds over

[Biofuel] In fascist America, thought crimes are prosecutable

[D. Mindock]

 From: http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2006/07/in_fascist_amer.html
 
7-12-2006
In fascist America, thought crimes are 
prosecutable
Engage in certain types of talk and you can be arrested 
for thought crimes. Whether they are gathered in a Miami warehouse or an 
Internet chatroom, if males, especially those of swarthy complexions, engage in 
big talk about doing evil things, even if they have neither the means nor 
expertise to carry them out, they stand the chance of being arrested and charged 
with being terrorists by US authorities. On the other hand, if an estranged 
husband or boyfriend threatens to kill his wife or girlfriend, police maintain 
they can do nothing until he takes action, which oftentimes means the woman 
winds up brutally beaten or dead. In the meantime, the only recourse the woman 
has is to seek a restraining order that, as often as not, turns out to be 
meaningless. - Bev Conover




By Bev ConoverOnline Journal Editor & 
Publisher
Jul 11, 2006, 01:01
Engage in certain types of talk and you can be arrested for 
thought crimes.
Whether they are gathered in a Miami warehouse or an 
Internet chatroom, if males, especially those of swarthy complexions, engage in 
big talk about doing evil things, even if they have neither the means nor 
expertise to carry them out, they stand the chance of being arrested and charged 
with being terrorists by US authorities.
On the other hand, if an estranged husband or boyfriend 
threatens to kill his wife or girlfriend, police maintain they can do nothing 
until he takes action, which oftentimes means the woman winds up brutally beaten 
or dead. In the meantime, the only recourse the woman has is to seek a 
restraining order that, as often as not, turns out to be meaningless.
Does that mean a woman's life has less value than groups of 
males who titillate themselves with talk of blowing up the Sears Tower in 
Chicago or the Holland Tunnel connecting New York and New Jersey?
Oh, says the Bushies, we can't wait to find out if these 
guys are going to carry out their plots and never mind that we send in 
infiltrators to encourage their pipe dreams.
"We don't wait until someone has lit the fuse to step in," 
Homeland [In]Security Secretary Michael Chertoff was quoted by the New York 
Times as saying at a news conference last Friday about the "New York 
plot."
Of course, they don't call them "thought crimes" arrests. 
They call them "preemptive action." And while it's viewed as a feather in George 
W.'s bogus "war on terror" cap if those arrested are convicted of something -- 
and a number of the 261 "preemptively" arrested and charged have been 
"persuaded" to cop pleas to some lesser charge, which still makes the 
"terrorist" label stick -- convictions are not all that important.
Why Rep. Peter King (R-NY), chairman of the House Homeland 
[In]Security Committee, told the Associated Press (AP), "You may end up not 
winning it in court, but you get a bad guy off the street."
A bad guy? A person who hasn't done anything but shoot off 
his mouth?
The AP reported, "Law enforcers, they said, are now willing 
to act swiftly against al-Qaida sympathizers, even if it means grabbing wannabe 
terrorists whose plots may be only pipe dreams."
Ah yes, "al CIAduh sympathizers." Now that's enough to give 
any red-blooded American the chills.
If swarthy men can be arrested for pipe dreams, what about 
that emaciated blond, who shall remain nameless to deprive her of more 
publicity, that has repeatedly called for the death of people and even went so 
far as to say it was a shame Timothy McVeigh didn't blow up the New York Times 
Building? Hmm? What about the not so good reverends, Falwell and Robertson, who 
have called for all sorts of madness and mayhem? Roberston even called for the 
assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. And the list goes on and on . 
. . What about them, huh? Are theirs approved "pipe dreams?"
Oh my, lawyers have the audacity to question the arresting 
of people for thought crimes.
New York defense lawyer Martin R. Stolar told the Times, 
"Talk without any kind of an action means nothing. You start to criminalize 
people who are not really criminals."
Golly gee, no kidding? We have been criminalizing people for 
nonsense for years. Remember when you could have your property confiscated if a 
passenger dropped a marijuana seed in your car? And when we weren't arresting 
them for that, we were arresting the cash they were carrying if law enforcement 
thought the amount was too much (they had to be planning to spend it on 
something not good, right?).
Congress even passed a law making it a crime to threaten the 
president (back when we had one). Like the average person can walk right up to a 
prez. But shoot off your mouth in public about how you'd like to do some bodily 
harm to the occupant of the Oval Office and some upstanding citizen will be on 
the phone to the Secret Service who will come and whisk you a

Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Ken Provost]

On Jul 17, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Appal Energy wrote:.. you need to size your consumption and determine whereyou can shave peak and continual use to determine your finalcosts.There may be no "inconvenience" to tolerate. I actually did all that last year, but I believe I was not sufficientlydaring. After some more research and considering all the greatinputs from the group, I believe an offgrid PV system of around2000 watts nominal, with some batteries and a 5kW genset, canbe had for nearly the same $ as PGE wants. With some carefulplanning, my needs should be covered in the summer without running the genset much if at all.I'm kind of curious though. If you don't have electricity to themanger yet, and you're technically already off the grid by virtue ofnot having any substitute as of yet, just what have you been doingfor power up to this point?10 awg extension cord 300 feet to a 20A outlet in the neighbor'sgarage :-)Or are you still applying the earth plaster and getting ready to wire the building?Garage is done, house is up to floor joists -- garage bales arelime plastered, and the wiring is done, from the (as yet unconnected)breaker box...Personally? You'll be a much happier camper if you stay off the grid.Mainstream isn't where it's at. For people who seem to have yourpenchant, me thinks you'd always kick yourself in the butt for nothaving a go at it right out of the chute.I think you're spot on there -- after all the financial analysis andthe amps and watts, it comes down to lifestyle and spiritual issues,like so much else. Thanks again for your (and everyone's) inputs on this. I'll let youknow how it plays out...-K___
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[Biofuel] Biofuel energy gains and environmental impact study

[MH]

Researchers Assess Life-Cycle Impact of Soy Biodiesel and Corn Ethanol
 11 July 2006
 http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/07/researchers_ass.html 

 Soybean biodiesel returns 93% more energy than is used to produce it,
 while corn grain ethanol currently provides only 25% more energy.

 Soybean biodiesel produces 41% less greenhouse gas emissions than diesel fuel
 whereas corn grain ethanol produces 12% less greenhouse gas emissions than 
gasoline.

 --- 
 U of M researchers identify energy gains and environmental impacts
 of corn ethanol and soybean biodiesel and propose alternatives
 for the next generation of biofuels
 
http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=3113&-Find

 Who:
   Jason Hill, postdoctoral researcher and lead author, University of Minnesota
   David Tilman, Regents Professor of Ecology and co-author, University of 
Minnesota 
   Doug Tiffany, research fellow, applied economics, University of Minnesota
 Contact:
   Mark Cassutt, University News Service, (612) 624-8038
   Peggy Rinard, College of Biological Sciences, (612) 624-0774


 MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (7/10/2006) -- The first comprehensive analysis
 of the full life cycles of soybean biodiesel and corn grain ethanol shows that
 biodiesel has much less of an impact on the environment and a much higher net
 energy benefit than corn ethanol, but that neither can do much to meet U.S.
 energy demand. 

 The study, which was funded in part by the University of Minnesota’s Initiative
 for Renewable Energy and the Environment, was conducted by researchers in
 the university’s College of Biological Sciences and College of Food,
 Agricultural and Natural Resource Sciences. The study will be published online
 July 12 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences,
 http://www.pnas.org/ 

 The researchers tracked all the energy used for growing corn and soybeans and
 converting the crops into biofuels. They also looked at how much fertilizer and
 pesticide corn and soybeans required and how much greenhouse gases and
 nitrogen, phosphorus, and pesticide pollutants each released into the
 environment.

 "Quantifying the benefits and costs of biofuels throughout their life cycles 
allows
 us not only to make sound choices today but also to identify better biofuels 
for
 the future," said Jason Hill, a postdoctoral researcher in the department of
 ecology, evolution, and behavior and the department of applied economics and
 lead author of the study.

 The study showed that both corn grain ethanol and soybean biodiesel produce
 more energy than is needed to grow the crops and convert them into biofuels.
 This finding refutes other studies claiming that these biofuels require more
 energy to produce than they provide. The amount of energy each returns differs
 greatly, however. Soybean biodiesel returns 93 percent more energy than is
 used to produce it, while corn grain ethanol currently provides only 25 percent
 more energy.

 Still, the researchers caution that neither biofuel can come close to meeting 
the
 growing demand for alternatives to petroleum. Dedicating all current U.S. corn
 and soybean production to biofuels would meet only 12 percent of gasoline
 demand and 6 percent of diesel demand. Meanwhile, global population growth
 and increasingly affluent societies will increase demand for corn and soybeans
 for food.

 The authors showed that the environmental impacts of the two biofuels also
 differ. Soybean biodiesel produces 41 percent less greenhouse gas emissions
 than diesel fuel whereas corn grain ethanol produces 12 percent less
 greenhouse gas emissions than gasoline. Soybeans have another environmental
 advantage over corn because they require much less nitrogen fertilizer and
 pesticides, which get into groundwater, streams, rivers and oceans. These
 agricultural chemicals pollute drinking water, and nitrogen decreases
 biodiversity in global ecosystems. Nitrogen fertilizer, mainly from corn, 
causes
 the 'dead zone' in the Gulf of Mexico.

 "We did this study to learn from ethanol and biodiesel," says David Tilman,
 Regents Professor of Ecology and a co-author of the study. "Producing biofuel
 for transportation is a fledgling industry. Corn ethanol and soybean biodiesel 
are
 successful first generation biofuels. The next step is a biofuel crop that 
requires
 low chemical and energy inputs and can give us much greater energy and
 environmental returns. Prairie grasses have great potential."

 Biofuels such as switchgrass, mixed prairie grasses and woody plants produced
 on marginally productive agricultural land or biofuels produced from 
agricultural
 or forestry waste have the potential to provide much larger biofuel supplies 
with
 greater environmental benefits than corn ethanol and soybean biodiesel.

 According to Douglas Tiffany, research fellow, department of applied
 economics and another co-author of the study, ethanol and biodiesel plants are
 early bior

Re: [Biofuel] The truth about where to stand on global warming

[JJJN]

Todd,

Appal Energy wrote:

>JJJN,
>
>  
>
>>I fully agree, but then I know some folks that will vote Republican to 
>>save the Guns - and they hate everything else about Republicans.
>>
>>
>
>"Democrats" aren't going to take anyone's guns away. Well, save for 
>automatics, sawed-off shotguns and perhaps assault rifles. Any NRA-er who 
>thinks otherwise isn't smart enough to be in possession of a gun permit, much 
>less be allowed with 20 parsecs of a firearm.
>
>By the by..., you do know that in the deep south, veiled "polite-speak" (code) 
>for Negro/African-American/Black is "Democrat," don't you? 
>  
>
Actually I didn't, I am pretty isolated from the racial stuff here but 
even here in this area I have met a few racists that blame everything on 
Blacks. Like you say its a childish type of thing to do.  Here Democrat 
is just a term for someone less Liberal.  I dont like to label people 
because I think when you get down to it rational informed people are not 
so far apart on most issues but it's the priority thats placed on them 
that stinks.

>When many speak of "Democrats" in a snotty nosed manner it's almost always got 
>a racial teint to it. In some respects, even if they're looking a white person 
>straight in the face and blaming the "Democrats," they've actually got a lit 
>fuse behind the mental curtain that's blaming blacks.
>
>All a bit sad. Some kind of inside, twisted, cliquish joke. You'd think adults 
>would grow out of it. I guess not. 
>
>  
>
>>I'm not sure I follow here, Would this be like the media driven 
>>advertisement sector financed by the corporate greed sector pushing 
>>people into the "waste lifestyle"? Or did I miss this one?
>>
>>
>
>More like the PR offices in the corporate greed sector manipulating and 
>creating wants/needs where none previously existed. Media is just the delivery 
>mechanism.
>  
>
Ok I get it now, Yes already the oil folks are launching huge 
"Convenient Lie" campaigns against global warming to diminish good and 
continue to program the SUV generation.
 
Jim

>Todd Swearingen
>
>
>
>
>
>JJJN wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Todd,
>>Points all well taken, see below.
>>
>>Appal Energy wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>I would tend to believe that if you're expressing your belief / faith on 
>>>paper, you should be the one to polish the words.
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Well actually I am expressing a view point on Global Warming that 
>>targets a specific audience.  The list has already given me several 
>>angles that I can explore and incorporate, such as yours. By myself 
>>only, you can see the example of the  narrow perspective that I thought 
>>of beginning this thread.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>As for context, it's beyond me how those who are spiritually/religiously 
>>>inclined fail to be the first on the "environmental bandwagon."
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>I fully agree, but then I know some folks that will vote Republican to 
>>save the Guns - and they hate everything else about Republicans. They 
>>only care about a single issue, while Bush sells of public lands where 
>>they would use the guns to hunt. 
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>A) Seems a trifle arrogant and presumptuous to destroy what was given to 
>>>us by a creator (presuming that's a person's belief system).
>>>
>>>B) There's a difference between having "dominion" and destroying / 
>>>desecrating. Something tells me that if there is a God, he or she is 
>>>capable of knowing the difference and basing judgment on those who 
>>>exercise indiscretion.
>>>
>>>C) For those who believe in the sanctity of life, there is an incumbent 
>>>mindset that must include all life, not just that or those within our 
>>>personal sphere of influence, nationality, creed or belief system. This 
>>>includes future generations - those who are yet to exist - whose lives 
>>>are being maimed, mangled or outright prevented by contemporary decision 
>>>making, inclusive of consumer choices and favorite programming 
>>>mechanisms. (Why do you think they call it "programming?")
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>I'm not sure I follow here, Would this be like the media driven 
>>advertisement sector financed by the corporate greed sector pushing 
>>people into the "waste lifestyle"? Or did I miss this one?
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>D) For those who believe in the principles spoken of by their preferred 
>>>deity, which is the greater evil? To end a life at gunpoint or other 
>>>immediate fashion in the pursuit of self-interest or to end a life or 
>>>multiple lives by poisoning the waters, air or land beneath our feet in 
>>>the pursuit of self-interest?
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>It really is the big picture we so often miss, good point.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>But what the heck. What's a little autism, ashma, Minimata disease and 
>>>leukemia amongst friends as long as we can fool ourselves into believing 
>>>that we are civilized?
>>>
>>>Todd Swearingen
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Thanks Todd, all good

Re: [Biofuel] Vanadium battery

[dwoodard]

The technology looks interesting, but the article takes a tone of 
uncritical boosting. There is nothing about

cost
cycle efficiency
amount of vanadium resource in proportion to possible applications
how it works
relation to other technologies (this is one of a family of flow batteries)
energy density in relation to alternatives

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Mon, 17 Jul 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:

> http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php
>
>  A new mass energy storage technology is on the cusp of entering mainstream 
> society. The Japanese are currently using it on a grand scale, the Canadians 
> have comprehensively evaluated it and soon Australians will have the 
> opportunity to replace their old lead-acid batteries with a Vanadium Redox 
> Battery alternative. There are no emissions, no disposal issues, no loss of 
> charge, the construction materials are 'green' and the battery can be charged 
> and discharged simultaneously. So, is the Vanadium Battery as good as it 
> sounds and more importantly, is it the solution to our energy storage 
> problems?
>  Quite simply...Yes.

[snip]

___
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Re: [Biofuel] The truth about where to stand on global warming

[Jason& Katie]

just exactly what is black, white? negro, african american, that damn 
N-word, pastey, cracker, honkey... its all a waste, so why do people think 
in these terms? its demented.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The truth about where to stand on global warming


JJJN,

> I fully agree, but then I know some folks that will vote Republican to
> save the Guns - and they hate everything else about Republicans.

"Democrats" aren't going to take anyone's guns away. Well, save for 
automatics, sawed-off shotguns and perhaps assault rifles. Any NRA-er who 
thinks otherwise isn't smart enough to be in possession of a gun permit, 
much less be allowed with 20 parsecs of a firearm.

By the by..., you do know that in the deep south, veiled "polite-speak" 
(code) for Negro/African-American/Black is "Democrat," don't you?

When many speak of "Democrats" in a snotty nosed manner it's almost always 
got a racial teint to it. In some respects, even if they're looking a white 
person straight in the face and blaming the "Democrats," they've actually 
got a lit fuse behind the mental curtain that's blaming blacks.

All a bit sad. Some kind of inside, twisted, cliquish joke. You'd think 
adults would grow out of it. I guess not.

> I'm not sure I follow here, Would this be like the media driven
> advertisement sector financed by the corporate greed sector pushing
> people into the "waste lifestyle"? Or did I miss this one?

More like the PR offices in the corporate greed sector manipulating and 
creating wants/needs where none previously existed. Media is just the 
delivery mechanism.

Todd Swearingen





JJJN wrote:

>Todd,
>Points all well taken, see below.
>
>Appal Energy wrote:
>
>
>
>>I would tend to believe that if you're expressing your belief / faith on
>>paper, you should be the one to polish the words.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Well actually I am expressing a view point on Global Warming that
>targets a specific audience.  The list has already given me several
>angles that I can explore and incorporate, such as yours. By myself
>only, you can see the example of the  narrow perspective that I thought
>of beginning this thread.
>
>
>
>>As for context, it's beyond me how those who are spiritually/religiously
>>inclined fail to be the first on the "environmental bandwagon."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>I fully agree, but then I know some folks that will vote Republican to
>save the Guns - and they hate everything else about Republicans. They
>only care about a single issue, while Bush sells of public lands where
>they would use the guns to hunt. 
>
>
>
>>A) Seems a trifle arrogant and presumptuous to destroy what was given to
>>us by a creator (presuming that's a person's belief system).
>>
>>B) There's a difference between having "dominion" and destroying /
>>desecrating. Something tells me that if there is a God, he or she is
>>capable of knowing the difference and basing judgment on those who
>>exercise indiscretion.
>>
>>C) For those who believe in the sanctity of life, there is an incumbent
>>mindset that must include all life, not just that or those within our
>>personal sphere of influence, nationality, creed or belief system. This
>>includes future generations - those who are yet to exist - whose lives
>>are being maimed, mangled or outright prevented by contemporary decision
>>making, inclusive of consumer choices and favorite programming
>>mechanisms. (Why do you think they call it "programming?")
>>
>>
>>
>>
>I'm not sure I follow here, Would this be like the media driven
>advertisement sector financed by the corporate greed sector pushing
>people into the "waste lifestyle"? Or did I miss this one?
>
>
>
>>D) For those who believe in the principles spoken of by their preferred
>>deity, which is the greater evil? To end a life at gunpoint or other
>>immediate fashion in the pursuit of self-interest or to end a life or
>>multiple lives by poisoning the waters, air or land beneath our feet in
>>the pursuit of self-interest?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>It really is the big picture we so often miss, good point.
>
>
>
>>But what the heck. What's a little autism, ashma, Minimata disease and
>>leukemia amongst friends as long as we can fool ourselves into believing
>>that we are civilized?
>>
>>Todd Swearingen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Thanks Todd, all good points and well taken.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>>Michael wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Some comments added between
>>>***
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>Very Respectfully,
>>>
>>>Michael @ Http://RecoveryByDiscovery.com
>>>
>>>- Original Message - 
>>>From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: "BIO" 
>>>Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 3:56 PM
>>>Subject: [Biofuel] The truth about where to stand on global warming
>>>
>>>
>>>I wrote this, and it probably sounds self righteous and clumsy, perhaps
>>>some on the list could help me fix it up a bit. I plan on using it as a
>>>le

Re: [Biofuel] Vanadium battery

[Kirk McLoren]

More info below the article in the comments section  Kirk[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  The technology looks interesting, but the article takes a tone of uncritical boosting. There is nothing aboutcostcycle efficiencyamount of vanadium resource in proportion to possible applicationshow it worksrelation to other technologies (this is one of a family of flow batteries)energy density in relation to alternativesDoug WoodardSt. Catharines, Ontario, CanadaOn Mon, 17 Jul 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:> http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php>> A new mass energy storage technology is on the cusp of entering mainstream society. The Japanese are currently using it on a grand scale, the Canadians have comprehensively evaluated it and soon Australians
 will have the opportunity to replace their old lead-acid batteries with a Vanadium Redox Battery alternative. There are no emissions, no disposal issues, no loss of charge, the construction materials are 'green' and the battery can be charged and discharged simultaneously. So, is the Vanadium Battery as good as it sounds and more importantly, is it the solution to our energy storage problems?> Quite simply...Yes.[snip] 
	
		See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com.  Check it out.
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[Biofuel] EPA seizes thousands of illegally imported engines

[AltEnergyNetwork]

Hmmm, I thought that Walmart lawnmower my friend bought ran awfully stinky! 
(LOL)

regards
tallex

EPA seizes thousands of illegally imported engines 
< http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1153185433.news >







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Re: [Biofuel] Vanadium battery

[swracz]

You can buy it now. Here is what I found from
http://www.vrbpower.com/technology/faqs.html - the Canadian company  
which sells VRB. More information about the technology available on  
their site.

11. What is the Cost per kW? What is the Incremental Cost of  
Additional Storage Capacity?

The cost is quoted in $/kWh or $/MWh since the VRB-ESS is an "Energy  
Storage System" and should not be considered a UPS or even a  
generator. Although the VRB-ESS provides the full UPS capability, its  
primary use is for energy storage for long periods, which UPS and  
conventional technologies cannot provide. As an approximate cost,  
systems are priced between $350-$600 per kWh, sizes ranging from a few  
hundred kW's to MW size systems. As the size of the system in kWh  
increases, the cost per unit decreases significantly. The incremental  
cost of storage for large systems is approximately $150 per kWh.

Quoting "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Ref: Vanadium redox battery
>
> This seems to be the battery we've all been waiting for. I wonder what'll it
> cost here in the US?  Peace, D. Mindock
> More info at: http://www.answers.com/topic/vanadium-redox-battery
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Kirk McLoren
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; biofuel
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Vanadium battery
>
>
> http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/the_vanadium_ba.php
>
> A new mass energy storage technology is on the cusp of entering mainstream
> society. The Japanese are currently using it on a grand scale, the Canadians
> have comprehensively evaluated it and soon Australians will have the
> opportunity to replace their old lead-acid batteries with a Vanadium Redox
> Battery alternative. There are no emissions, no disposal issues, no loss of
> charge, the construction materials are 'green' and the battery can be
> charged and discharged simultaneously. So, is the Vanadium Battery as good
> as it sounds and more importantly, is it the solution to our energy storage
> problems?
> Quite simply...Yes.
> The potential of this system can be easily summed up in one word: 100%
> recharge/discharge. Well that's slightly more than one word, but still it is
> an impressive group of words. I'm a little excited here, so let me back
> track a little and explain the importance of Vanadium Batteries to our very
> existence.
> It has been possible for quite some time to successfully gather energy
> through a variety of renewable energy sources, in particular solar and wind.
> The main problem however, which is also true for fossil fuel energy
> generation, is the storage of the energy. There is no point in generating
> surplus uber-watts on one sunny and windy day to find the next day is still
> and raining and worst of all there is no power to play the new DVD of
> Stainless Steel Rat on your suped-up 80 inch LCD screen (sorry...just
> wishful thinking). If the energy cannot be stored on the day of bountiful
> bliss than a renewable energy system is useless.
> 
>
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>
>




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