Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest found it lacking. The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity. These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New Jersey. Something was completely out of place!... there is no such thing as an atomic style cooling tower any heat engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same type of cooling tower. Normally two cooling towers would represent the presence of two reactors with a combined capacity of at least ten megawatts. What practical use were there for cooling towers if it was a coal fired plant? umh, your average nuclear power reactor is some two orders of magnitude greater- usually in the ball park of 1000 Megawatts per reactor, not 5 All fossil fuel boilers including the hot water heater in your house have safety valves on them which are designed to open and vent any excess pressure into the air. When they open, both pressure and temperature inside the boiler rapidly decrease preventing the unit from blowing up . Since conventional plants only release steam (water vapour) into the air the venting is harmless. Here we have instant venting and fast shut down so there is no need to provide for much reserve cooling. To the best of my knowledge nuclear style cooling towers on a fossil fuel power plant are completely unnecessary. They are used only in conjunction with high capacity atomic reactors which frequently need to safely spill off tremendous amounts of excess heat. The fission process by which the heat is created is measured in micro-seconds. A neutron hits an atoms nucleus and fissions it creating heat, another element and giving off more neutrons... This is just plain silly Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be the tip of the ice berg. Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
yeah, he seems to have no idea how steam turbine cycles engines work. Pretty much the same regardless of how the heat is generated. I believe nuclear plants are a little less efficient due to operating at a lower temperature, but aside from that, the same. Around there they usually use cooling ponds instead of towers, since we can't afford to use that much water up. On 8/18/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honestfound it lacking.The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clueabout power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity. These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as theSphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structuresdoing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New Jersey. Something was completely out of place!...there is no such thing as an atomic style cooling tower any heatengine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same type of cooling tower.Normally two cooling towers would represent the presence of tworeactors with a combined capacity of at least ten megawatts. Whatpractical use were there for cooling towers if it was a coal fired plant? umh, your average nuclear power reactor is some two orders ofmagnitude greater- usually in the ball park of 1000 Megawatts perreactor, not 5All fossil fuel boilers including the hot water heater in your house have safety valves on them which are designed to open and vent anyexcess pressure into the air. When they open, both pressure andtemperature inside the boiler rapidly decrease preventing the unitfrom blowing up . Since conventional plants only release steam (water vapour) into the air the venting is harmless. Here we have instantventing and fast shut down so there is no need to provide for muchreserve cooling. To the best of my knowledge nuclear style coolingtowers on a fossil fuel power plant are completely unnecessary. They are used only in conjunction with high capacity atomic reactorswhich frequently need to safely spill off tremendous amounts of excessheat. The fission process by which the heat is created is measured in micro-seconds. A neutron hits an atoms nucleus and fissions itcreating heat, another element and giving off more neutrons...This is just plain sillyKirk McLoren wrote: http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.htmlIn one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be the tip of the ice berg. Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.comBob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob---The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moraljustification for selfishnessJKG___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest found it lacking. The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity." These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New Jersey. Something was completely out of place!..."there is no such thing as an "atomic style cooling tower" any heat engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same type of cooling tower. -- Nukes run at a lower thermal efficiency for safety reasons. Temperature and thus pressure are lower than in oil or coal steam plants. This increases the cooling tower load per killowatt thus nuke plants have larger towers than equivalent hydrocarbon installations. The size is the issue here. Other issues he made were the rails showed no sign of use and thirdly the "oil " storage tanks also showed no maintenance. So he describes a plant with anomolously large cooling towers and no visible fueling infrastructure.Also inhydrocarbon installations I have seen the tower is different,maybe 3 stories. The tower is to direct cooling air and discharged water vapor such that it doesnt re enter the heat exchangers. The nuclear plants have such large requirements a large structure is required to ensure no mixing.How about keeping an open mind Bob. You didnt read what he said as near as I can tell.Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be the tip of the ice berg.. Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
http://www.newhopepa.com/DelawareRiver/port_jervis_bristol_2.htm How about keeping an open mind Bob. I try, but I also try to guard against gullibility. Here is a link to a couple of spills of fly ash related material from the Martin creek plant. Oh, I guess they could be importing fly ash from some other plant to fake the spills to throw us all off... http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b4_3pplfolo-1aug16,0,6175405.story If it looks like a coal fired plant, and spills like a coal fired plant, then the the simplest explanation is that it is in fact a coal fired plant. http://www.pplweb.com/community+partners/our+education+programs/directions+to+ppl+facilities.htm Maybe some intrepid soul could go check it out first hand: Martins Creek Plant From points south (Easton): Take Route 611 North to the traffic signal in the village of Martins Creek. Turn right, continuing on Route 611. Travel another mile on Route 611. At the top of the hill, veer off Route 611 by continuing straight ahead onto the Martins Creek/Belvidere Highway. Drive another 3 miles. Turn right onto Foul Rift Road (there is a yellow farmhouse on the right). This road will lead you to the plant. At the Y in the road after the Tekening hiking trailhead, make a right to head toward the parking lots. You may park in the stone lot to the right or in the main parking lot to the left and proceed to the guardhouse. Workshops are held in the second-floor conference room at the power plant. Kirk McLoren wrote: */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest found it lacking. The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity. These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New Jersey. Something was completely out of place!... there is no such thing as an atomic style cooling tower any heat engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same type of cooling tower. -- Nukes run at a lower thermal efficiency for safety reasons. Temperature and thus pressure are lower than in oil or coal steam plants. This increases the cooling tower load per killowatt thus nuke plants have larger towers than equivalent hydrocarbon installations. The size is the issue here. Other issues he made were the rails showed no sign of use and thirdly the oil storage tanks also showed no maintenance. So he describes a plant with anomolously large cooling towers and no visible fueling infrastructure. Also in hydrocarbon installations I have seen the tower is different, maybe 3 stories. The tower is to direct cooling air and discharged water vapor such that it doesnt re enter the heat exchangers. The nuclear plants have such large requirements a large structure is required to ensure no mixing. How about keeping an open mind Bob. You didnt read what he said as near as I can tell. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be the tip of the ice berg. . Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40791/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to
Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
The Martins Creek plant is on the Delaware River in Lower Mount Bethel Township, Northampton County, about 15 miles north of Easton, Pa. The plant has two coal-fired generating units, each with a capacity of 150,000 kilowatts. The plant also has two units which can be fueled by either natural gas or oil, with a total generating capacity of 1,592,000 kilowatts. I would think the obvious answer is that it's running on natural gas or oil through a pipeline. bob allen wrote: http://www.newhopepa.com/DelawareRiver/port_jervis_bristol_2.htm How about keeping an open mind Bob. I try, but I also try to guard against gullibility. Here is a link to a couple of spills of fly ash related material from the Martin creek plant. Oh, I guess they could be importing fly ash from some other plant to fake the spills to throw us all off... http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b4_3pplfolo-1aug16,0,6175405.story If it looks like a coal fired plant, and spills like a coal fired plant, then the the simplest explanation is that it is in fact a coal fired plant. http://www.pplweb.com/community+partners/our+education+programs/directions+to+ppl+facilities.htm Maybe some intrepid soul could go check it out first hand: Martins Creek Plant From points south (Easton): Take Route 611 North to the traffic signal in the village of Martins Creek. Turn right, continuing on Route 611. Travel another mile on Route 611. At the top of the hill, veer off Route 611 by continuing straight ahead onto the Martins Creek/Belvidere Highway. Drive another 3 miles. Turn right onto Foul Rift Road (there is a yellow farmhouse on the right). This road will lead you to the plant. At the Y in the road after the Tekening hiking trailhead, make a right to head toward the parking lots. You may park in the stone lot to the right or in the main parking lot to the left and proceed to the guardhouse. Workshops are held in the second-floor conference room at the power plant. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
Now those answers are germane. Factual and indicative. Looks like our author Renesaw shadows in the trees and thought them an elephantThe If it looks is back to sarcasm. tch tch tch and you were doing so well.Kirkbob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.newhopepa.com/DelawareRiver/port_jervis_bristol_2.htm How about keeping an open mind Bob.I try, but I also try to guard against gullibility. Here is a link to a couple of spills of fly ash related material from the Martin creek plant. Oh, I guess they could be importing fly ash from some other plant to fake the spills to throw us all off...http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b4_3pplfolo-1aug16,0,6175405.storyIf it looks like a coal fired plant, and spills like a coal fired plant, then the the simplest explanation is that it is in fact a coal fired plant.http://www.pplweb.com/community+partners/our+education+programs/directions+to+ppl+facilities.htmMaybe some intrepid soul could go check it out first hand:"Martins Creek PlantFrom points south (Easton): Take Route 611 North to the traffic signal in the village of Martins Creek. Turn right, continuing on Route 611. Travel another mile on Route 611. At the top of the hill, veer off Route 611 by continuing straight ahead onto the Martins Creek/Belvidere Highway. Drive another 3 miles. Turn right onto Foul Rift Road (there is a yellow farmhouse on the right). This road will lead you to the plant. At the Y in the road after the Tekening hiking trailhead, make a right to head toward the parking lots. You may park in the stone lot to the right or in the main parking lot to the left and proceed to the guardhouse. Workshops are held in the second-floor conference room at the power plant."Kirk McLoren wrote: */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest found it lacking. The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity. " These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New Jersey. Something was completely out of place!..." there is no such thing as an "atomic style cooling tower" any heat engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same type of cooling tower. -- Nukes run at a lower thermal efficiency for safety reasons. Temperature and thus pressure are lower than in oil or coal steam plants. This increases the cooling tower load per killowatt thus nuke plants have larger towers than equivalent hydrocarbon installations. The size is the issue here. Other issues he made were the rails showed no sign of use and thirdly the "oil " storage tanks also showed no maintenance. So he describes a plant with anomolously large cooling towers and no visible fueling infrastructure. Also in hydrocarbon installations I have seen the tower is different, maybe 3 stories. The tower is to direct cooling air and discharged water vapor such that it doesnt re enter the heat exchangers. The nuclear plants have such large requirements a large structure is required to ensure no mixing. How about keeping an open mind Bob. You didnt read what he said as near as I can tell. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be the tip of the ice berg. . Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- --Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob---The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercisesin moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moraljustification for selfishness JKG ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz
Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
I have to agree with Bob on this one. I would say that most of this article could be criticized by a high school physics student. In my professional life, I'm a commercial diver. I work for a large company that does exclusively power plant work, diving both inside and outside of nuclear and fossil fuel power plants. Just a few of many, many, many more discrepancies I found: This incredibly fast process is supposedly controlled by the relatively slow movement of the graphite (pencil lead) control rods being lowered into, and retracted from, the enriched uranium fuel rods which constitute the core. All reactors used in this country use pretty much the same design. All current reactors being built in the rest of the world also follow this design. Modern reactors use cadmium as a control rod material. In reviewing the process I have come to the conclusion that any large reactor surrounded with a containment dome must generate steam at too low a temperature for use in turbines. There is a direct relationship between temperature and pressure. If the dome can withstand 100 PSI (pounds per square inch) then its working pressure must be less than 50 PSI. At that pressure, very, very low by modern standards, the temperature in the reactor is only 281 degrees F. Since a heat exchanger can not increase the temperature of the fluid in the system, pony boilers must be used to super heat the steam. The containment dome that is visible from the outside of a nuke plant is make of concrete, and is liked with about 6 inches of steel. The reactor vessel itself is contained within this containment structure. The reactor vessel, where all the nuclear magic happens, is made of stainless steel that is about a foot thick. A Pressurized Water Reactor operates at around 600 degrees Fahrenheit at 2200 psi. No boiling takes place in the reactor, but a separate heat exchanger. In a Boiling Water Reactor, the water actually boils in the reactor vessel, and they operate at around 1120 psi and 545 degrees Fahrenheit.. These spent rods are generally removed after a year or so and then are stored in pools of water. The storage is forever because we still don't know how to dispose of them. I suspect they can't even be re-processed because they are so radioactive. Just think every insect that passes by these pools and is later absorbed into the belly of another, carries just a little bit more radioactivity into the environment. Nuke divers work in fuel pools all the time. The spent fuel pools are not just swimming pools sitting outside with fuel rods in them. Spent fuel pools are housed in hermetically sealed buildings and guarded by armed security. Accessing fuel pools or any other area of a nuclear power plant requires drug screening, an FBI background check, and a psychological examination. Insects don't just fly into these pools, frogs don't just jump from lily pad to lily pad in the fuel pools, and fish don't swim in them. I also saw a number of separate lines of high tension towers radiating outward to all points of the compass. There were more as I passed the plant and many were carrying extremely high voltage as judged by the long insulators used to standoff the lines from the steel towers that hold the power lines. The Martins Creek Plant is a real heavyweight producer of power. Some coal fired power plants produce up too 1500 MW. A power plant isn't going to produce electricity into the national grid through a bunch of extension cords, if thats what the author is expecting to see. All power plants send power out in extremely high voltage (115,000 volts and higher) to minimize power losses and wire size. Wow, I could just keep going with this. Its scary, but many people are going to actually believe everything contained in this article. Anyone else out there with at least some knowledge of the power industry care to help me out with this? By the way, Martin's Creek is a coal burning power plant. Two of my co-workers are going to be cleaning the sediment out of their two atomic style cooling towers sometime in the next month. Daniel Albano ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?
http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.htmlIn one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be the tip of the ice berg. Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1/min.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/