Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[Dan Albano]

I have to agree with Bob on this one.  I would say that most of this 
article could be criticized by a high school physics student.  In my 
professional life, I'm a commercial diver.  I work for a large company 
that does exclusively power plant work, diving both inside and outside 
of nuclear and fossil fuel power plants.  Just a few of many, many, many 
more discrepancies I found:

"This incredibly fast process is supposedly controlled by the relatively 
slow movement of the graphite (pencil lead) control rods being lowered 
into, and retracted from, the enriched uranium fuel rods which 
constitute the core."

All reactors used in this country use pretty much the same design.  All 
current reactors being built in the rest of the world also follow this 
design.  Modern reactors use cadmium as a control rod material. 

"In reviewing the process I have come to the conclusion that any large 
reactor surrounded with a containment dome must generate steam at too 
low a temperature for use in turbines. There is a direct relationship 
between temperature and pressure. If the dome can withstand 100 PSI 
(pounds per square inch) then its working pressure must be less than 50 
PSI. At that pressure, very, very low by modern standards, the 
temperature in the reactor is only 281 degrees F. Since a heat exchanger 
can not increase the temperature of the fluid in the system, pony 
boilers must be used to super heat the steam."

The containment dome that is visible from the outside of a nuke plant is 
make of concrete, and is liked with about 6 inches of steel.  The 
reactor vessel itself is contained within this containment structure.  
The reactor vessel, where all the nuclear magic happens, is made of 
stainless steel that is about a foot thick.  A Pressurized Water Reactor 
operates at around 600 degrees Fahrenheit at 2200 psi.  No boiling takes 
place in the reactor, but a separate heat exchanger.  In a Boiling Water 
Reactor, the water actually boils in the reactor vessel, and they 
operate at around 1120 psi and 545 degrees Fahrenheit.. 

"These "spent" rods are generally removed after a year or so and then 
are stored in pools of water. The storage is forever because we still 
don't know how to dispose of them. I suspect they can't even be 
re-processed because they are so radioactive. Just think every insect 
that passes by these pools and is later absorbed into the belly of 
another, carries just a little bit more radioactivity into the environment."

Nuke divers work in fuel pools all the time.  The spent fuel pools are 
not just swimming pools sitting outside with fuel rods in them.  Spent 
fuel pools are housed in hermetically sealed buildings and guarded by 
armed security.  Accessing fuel pools or any other area of a nuclear 
power plant requires drug screening, an FBI background check, and a 
psychological examination.  Insects don't just fly into these pools, 
frogs don't just jump from lily pad to lily pad in the fuel pools, and 
fish don't swim in them.

"I also saw a number of separate lines of high tension towers radiating 
outward to all points of the compass. There were more as I passed the 
plant and many were carrying extremely high voltage as judged by the 
long insulators used to "standoff" the lines from the steel towers that 
hold the power lines. The Martins Creek Plant is a real heavyweight 
producer of power."

Some coal fired power plants produce up too 1500 MW.  A power plant 
isn't going to produce electricity into the national grid through a 
bunch of extension cords, if thats what the author is expecting to see.  
All power plants send power out in extremely high voltage (115,000 volts 
and higher) to minimize power losses and wire size. 

Wow, I could just keep going with this.  Its scary, but many people are 
going to actually believe everything contained in this article.  Anyone 
else out there with at least some knowledge of the power industry care 
to help me out with this?

By the way, Martin's Creek is a coal burning power plant.  Two of my 
co-workers are going to be cleaning the sediment out of their two 
"atomic style" cooling towers sometime in the next month. 

Daniel Albano


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Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[Kirk McLoren]

Now those answers are germane.  Factual and indicative.   Looks like our author Rene saw shadows in the trees and thought them an elephant     The If it looks is back to sarcasm.  tch tch tch  and you were doing so well.     Kirkbob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  http://www.newhopepa.com/DelawareRiver/port_jervis_bristol_2.htm> How about keeping an open mind Bob.I try, but I also try to guard against gullibility. Here is a link to a couple of spills of fly ash related material from the Martin creek plant. Oh, I guess they could be importing fly ash from some other plant to fake the spills to throw us all
 off...http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b4_3pplfolo-1aug16,0,6175405.storyIf it looks like a coal fired plant, and spills like a coal fired plant, then the the simplest explanation is that it is in fact a coal fired plant.http://www.pplweb.com/community+partners/our+education+programs/directions+to+ppl+facilities.htmMaybe some intrepid soul could go check it out first hand:"Martins Creek PlantFrom points south (Easton): Take Route 611 North to the traffic signal in the village of Martins Creek. Turn right, continuing on Route 611. Travel another mile on Route 611. At the top of the hill, veer off Route 611 by continuing straight ahead onto the Martins Creek/Belvidere Highway. Drive another 3 miles. Turn right onto Foul Rift Road (there is a yellow farmhouse on the right). This road will lead you to the plant. At the Y in the road after the Tekening hiking trailhead, make a
 right to head toward the parking lots. You may park in the stone lot to the right or in the main parking lot to the left and proceed to the guardhouse. Workshops are held in the second-floor conference room at the power plant."Kirk McLoren wrote:> > > */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:> > Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest> found it lacking. The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue> about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity.> > > " These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually> only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the> Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures> doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New> Jersey. Something was completely out of place!...">
 > > > there is no such thing as an "atomic style cooling tower" any heat> engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same> type of cooling tower.> --> Nukes run at a lower thermal efficiency for safety reasons.> Temperature and thus pressure are lower than in oil or coal steam> plants. This increases the cooling tower load per killowatt thus> nuke plants have larger towers than equivalent hydrocarbon> installations. The size is the issue here. Other issues he made were> the rails showed no sign of use and thirdly the "oil " storage tanks> also showed no maintenance. So he describes a plant with anomolously> large cooling towers and no visible fueling infrastructure.> > Also in hydrocarbon installations I have seen the tower is> different, maybe 3 stories. The tower is to direct
 cooling air and> discharged water vapor such that it doesnt re enter the heat> exchangers. The nuclear plants have such large requirements a large> structure is required to ensure no mixing.> > How about keeping an open mind Bob. You didnt read what he said as> near as I can tell.> > > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html> >> > In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may> just be> > the tip of the ice berg.> .> > > Do you Yahoo!?> Get on board. You're invited > > to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.> > >
 > > ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> -- --Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob---The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercisesin moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moraljustification for selfishness
 JKG ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://jour

Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[Marty Phee]

The Martins Creek plant is on the Delaware River in Lower Mount Bethel
Township, Northampton County, about 15 miles north of Easton, Pa. The
plant has two coal-fired generating units, each with a capacity of
150,000 kilowatts. The plant also has two units which can be fueled by
either natural gas or oil, with a total generating capacity of 1,592,000
kilowatts.

I would think the obvious answer is that it's running on natural gas or
oil through a pipeline.

bob allen wrote:
> http://www.newhopepa.com/DelawareRiver/port_jervis_bristol_2.htm
>
>  > How about keeping an open mind Bob.
>
> I try, but I also try to guard against gullibility. Here is a link to 
> a couple of spills of fly ash related material from the Martin creek 
> plant.  Oh, I guess they could be importing fly ash from some other 
> plant to fake the spills to throw us all off...
>
> http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b4_3pplfolo-1aug16,0,6175405.story
>
>
>
> If it looks like a coal fired plant, and spills like a coal fired 
> plant, then the the simplest explanation is that it is in fact a coal 
> fired plant.
>
>
> http://www.pplweb.com/community+partners/our+education+programs/directions+to+ppl+facilities.htm
>
> Maybe some intrepid soul could go check it out first hand:
>
>
> "Martins Creek Plant
>  From points south (Easton): Take Route 611 North to the traffic 
> signal in the village of Martins Creek. Turn right, continuing on 
> Route 611. Travel another mile on Route 611. At the top of the hill, 
> veer off Route 611 by continuing straight ahead onto the Martins 
> Creek/Belvidere Highway. Drive another 3 miles. Turn right onto Foul 
> Rift Road (there is a yellow farmhouse on the right). This road will 
> lead you to the plant. At the Y in the road after the Tekening hiking 
> trailhead, make a right to head toward the parking lots. You may park 
> in the stone lot to the right or in the main parking lot to the left 
> and proceed to the guardhouse. Workshops are held in the second-floor 
> conference room at the power plant."
>
>
>   


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Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[bob allen]

http://www.newhopepa.com/DelawareRiver/port_jervis_bristol_2.htm

 > How about keeping an open mind Bob.

I try, but I also try to guard against gullibility. Here is a link to 
a couple of spills of fly ash related material from the Martin creek 
plant.  Oh, I guess they could be importing fly ash from some other 
plant to fake the spills to throw us all off...

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b4_3pplfolo-1aug16,0,6175405.story



If it looks like a coal fired plant, and spills like a coal fired 
plant, then the the simplest explanation is that it is in fact a coal 
fired plant.


http://www.pplweb.com/community+partners/our+education+programs/directions+to+ppl+facilities.htm

Maybe some intrepid soul could go check it out first hand:


"Martins Creek Plant
 From points south (Easton): Take Route 611 North to the traffic 
signal in the village of Martins Creek. Turn right, continuing on 
Route 611. Travel another mile on Route 611. At the top of the hill, 
veer off Route 611 by continuing straight ahead onto the Martins 
Creek/Belvidere Highway. Drive another 3 miles. Turn right onto Foul 
Rift Road (there is a yellow farmhouse on the right). This road will 
lead you to the plant. At the Y in the road after the Tekening hiking 
trailhead, make a right to head toward the parking lots. You may park 
in the stone lot to the right or in the main parking lot to the left 
and proceed to the guardhouse. Workshops are held in the second-floor 
conference room at the power plant."







Kirk McLoren wrote:
> 
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest
> found it lacking. The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue
> about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity.
> 
> 
> " These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually
> only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the
> Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures
> doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New
> Jersey. Something was completely out of place!..."
> 
> 
> 
> there is no such thing as an "atomic style cooling tower" any heat
> engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same
> type of cooling tower.
> --
> Nukes run at a lower thermal efficiency for safety reasons.
> Temperature and thus pressure are lower than in oil or coal steam
> plants. This increases the cooling tower load per killowatt thus
> nuke plants have larger towers than equivalent hydrocarbon
> installations. The size is the issue here. Other issues he made were
> the rails showed no sign of use and thirdly the "oil " storage tanks
> also showed no maintenance. So he describes a plant with anomolously
> large cooling towers and no visible fueling infrastructure.
>  
> Also in hydrocarbon installations I have seen the tower is
> different, maybe 3 stories. The tower is to direct cooling air and
> discharged water vapor such that it doesnt re enter the heat
> exchangers. The nuclear plants have such large requirements a large
> structure is required to ensure no mixing.
>  
> How about keeping an open mind Bob. You didnt read what he said as
> near as I can tell.
>  
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  > http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html
>  >
>  > In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may
> just be
>  > the tip of the ice berg.
> .
> 
> 
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get on board. You're invited 
> 
>  
> to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 


-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


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Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[Kirk McLoren]

bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest found it lacking. The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity." These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New Jersey. Something was completely out of place!..."there is no such thing as an "atomic style cooling tower" any heat engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same type of cooling tower. 
 --  Nukes run at a lower thermal efficiency for safety reasons. Temperature and thus pressure are lower than in oil or coal steam plants. This increases the cooling tower load per killowatt thus nuke plants have larger towers than equivalent hydrocarbon installations. The size is the issue here. Other issues he made were the rails showed no sign of use and thirdly the "oil " storage tanks also showed no maintenance. So he describes a plant with anomolously large cooling towers and no visible fueling infrastructure.     Also in hydrocarbon installations I have seen the tower is different, maybe 3 stories. The tower is to direct cooling air and discharged water vapor such that it doesnt re enter the heat exchangers. The nuclear plants have such large requirements a large structure is required to ensure no mixing.     How about keeping an
 open mind Bob. You didnt read what he said as near as I can tell.     Kirk McLoren wrote:> http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html> > In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be > the tip of the ice berg.. 
		Do you Yahoo!? 
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[Zeke Yewdall]

yeah, he seems to have no idea how steam turbine cycles engines work.  Pretty much the same regardless of how the heat is generated.  I believe nuclear plants are a little less efficient due to operating at a lower temperature, but aside from that, the same.  Around there they usually use cooling ponds instead of towers, since we can't afford to use that much water up.
On 8/18/06, bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honestfound it lacking.  The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clueabout power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity." These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually
only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as theSphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structuresdoing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New
Jersey. Something was completely out of place!..."there is no such thing as an "atomic style cooling tower" any heatengine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same
type of cooling tower."Normally two cooling towers would represent the presence of tworeactors with a combined capacity of at least ten megawatts. Whatpractical use were there for cooling towers if it was a coal fired plant?"
umh, your average nuclear power reactor is some two orders ofmagnitude greater- usually in the ball park of 1000 Megawatts perreactor, not 5"All fossil fuel boilers including the hot water heater in your house
have safety valves on them which are designed to open and vent anyexcess pressure into the air. When they open, both pressure andtemperature inside the boiler rapidly decrease preventing the unitfrom blowing up . Since conventional plants only release steam (water
vapour) into the air the venting is harmless. Here we have instantventing and fast shut down so there is no need to provide for muchreserve cooling. To the best of my knowledge nuclear style coolingtowers on a fossil fuel power plant are completely unnecessary.
They are used only in conjunction with high capacity atomic reactorswhich frequently need to safely spill off tremendous amounts of excessheat. The fission process by which the heat is created is measured in
micro-seconds. A neutron hits an atoms nucleus and fissions itcreating heat, another element and giving off more neutrons..."This is just plain sillyKirk McLoren wrote:> 
http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html>>  In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be> the tip of the ice berg.>> 
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great> rates starting at 1¢/min.> <
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com  <
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com>> >> ___
> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>>  <
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com>Bob Allen,
http://ozarker.org/bob---The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moraljustification for selfishness  JKG___
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Re: [Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[bob allen]

Howdy Kirk, I scanned the first part of the article and to be honest 
found it lacking.  The author either doesn't edit or hasn't a clue 
about power plant functioning, cooling requirements or capacity.


" These gigantic structures were atomic style cooling towers usually 
only seen at nuclear power plants where they guard the reactors as the 
Sphinx guards the great Pyramids. What were these conical structures 
doing in Foul Rift? I had never heard of nuclear plants in Western New 
Jersey. Something was completely out of place!..."



there is no such thing as an "atomic style cooling tower" any heat 
engine requires cooling, and coal fired plants use exactly the same 
type of cooling tower.


"Normally two cooling towers would represent the presence of two 
reactors with a combined capacity of at least ten megawatts. What 
practical use were there for cooling towers if it was a coal fired plant?"


umh, your average nuclear power reactor is some two orders of 
magnitude greater- usually in the ball park of 1000 Megawatts per 
reactor, not 5


"All fossil fuel boilers including the hot water heater in your house 
have safety valves on them which are designed to open and vent any 
excess pressure into the air. When they open, both pressure and 
temperature inside the boiler rapidly decrease preventing the unit 
from blowing up . Since conventional plants only release steam (water 
vapour) into the air the venting is harmless. Here we have instant 
venting and fast shut down so there is no need to provide for much 
reserve cooling. To the best of my knowledge nuclear style cooling 
towers on a fossil fuel power plant are completely unnecessary.

They are used only in conjunction with high capacity atomic reactors 
which frequently need to safely spill off tremendous amounts of excess 
heat. The fission process by which the heat is created is measured in 
micro-seconds. A neutron hits an atoms nucleus and fissions it 
creating heat, another element and giving off more neutrons..."


This is just plain silly



Kirk McLoren wrote:
> http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html
>  
>  In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be 
> the tip of the ice berg.
> 
> 
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great 
> rates starting at 1¢/min. 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
>  
> 


-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


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[Biofuel] Are there more nuclear reactors than we are told about?

[Kirk McLoren]

http://www.rene-r.com/essays/the-mystery-of-martins-creek.html      In one man's opinion, I think that the Martin's Creek plant may just be the tip of the ice berg. 
	
	
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