Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Fox Mulder wrote: "hi, pouring glycerine on the leaves kills. glycerine is alkaline; so, alkalinity kills leaves. Further, methyl ester kills leaves. The best weed killer; Follow the ingredients; glycerine left over from your biodiesel 2parts sodium ethanoate 1part" We are talking about the FFAs separated out of the glycerine cocktail; the coproduct of biodiesel production. The value of FFAs as a weed killer comes from the fact that it is readily broken down and there is minimum, if any contamination of the soil. The pH of the FFAs, as best I can determine, is very similar to the pH of my soil ~ 6.5. It has been pointed out that the use of the glycerine "left over from your biodiesel" kills weeds, but the concern is that it also kills earthworms one of the hardest-working employees I have in my garden. My use of compost and a thick layer of mulch is as much an attempt to build an environment attractive to earthworms, saprophytic fungi and bacteria as it is to support plant growth directly. If fact, w/o these organisms, much of the nutrients tied up in the compost and mulch would not be available to my plants. Once separated (see JTF) the crude glycerine (methanol recovered) is slightly acidic, not alkaline. It can be neutralized it w. baking soda or ammonia and can be used to produce biogas (methane), or added to the ferment > ethanol. At the moment, I neutralize it w. ammonia and add it to my compost (1 part glycerine: 2 parts water). The glycerine is rapidly metabolized for energy and the ammonia contributes nitrogen. It seems to work well. The minerals that precipitate out upon separation of the cocktail (in my case a mix of sodium and potassium phosphate) are fertilizers. My compost piles are essentially layers of grass clippings, then leaves, then manure .. repeat. I dissolve about 1 tablespoon of the mineral precip. in the water that I mix with the glycerine and pour it on the leaf layer using a watering can. I have several pounds of mineral precip and many gallons of glycerine, so I may have to find other ways to use it, but am more than hesitant to spray either directly on my garden or flower beds. That leaves the FFAs from separation. I've noodled around with adding them to my heating fuel (BD100). I suspect that there was some glycerine contamination because after a bout a week to 10 days the electrodes in my burner were coated w. a thick, crusty goo. I'll let it settle for a month at warmer temp & get back to that , but for now, FFAs as weed killers has caught my interest. Sorry to get so wordy. I'm not adding anything new. It has all been discussed at JTF and by list members. The discussion, so far, has put an emphasis on the minimal environmental impact of FFAs as weed killers, not that they are "the best", as in most effective. After all there's always Roundup or 2,4-D if one simply wants to kill plants w/o worrying about consequences. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
--- Ryan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >From what I remember from my botany courses, > plant leaves are also very > tightly regulated to reduce water loss. A leaf is > basically a large, flat > surface coursing with fluid; exactly what you would > do to promote > evaporation. To slow evap., most leaves have > passive pores that close in > dry conditions as well as a secreted waxy surface. > If the FFA were > disrupting the waxy surface or causing the pores to > open or both, you would > get rapid fluid loss, browning, wilting, etc., but > the plant would repair > and recover in a short time. > >Gooeyness...hmmm...surface gooeyness? Or the > whole leaf is a spongey > mess? Maybe the waxy seal balling up like oil drops > in water? > >Ryan > > > >From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > >Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:25:47 -0400 > > > >Bob, > > In response to my note: "One day later > ~24hrs, the leaves were > >browning > >and wilted." > > You wrote: > >" I sure would like to see some references on the > mechanism of this > >effect." > > > > I wonder if the FFAs are disrupting the > structure of cell membranes. > >All cell membranes are phospholipid bilayers with > hydrophobic fatty acids > >pointing inward towards each other and away from > water. The hydrophilic > >phosphates are on the inner and outer surfaces > interacting w. water. > >Replace > >water w.FFAs and this structure could be > compromised. > > After 24 hrs the leaves are more than wilted, > they are gooey (for lack > >of a better word). > > I'd be interested in knowing the mechanism as > well. I dug up a few > >treated dandelions 3 - 4 days after treatment. The > roots seemed fine. This > >morning, a week after treatment, some of the > sprayed plants are sprouting > >new leaves and the sickly-looking dandelions have > sent up new flowers. The > >effect does not seem to be systemic. > >I like that. It seems very effective against a > variety of "weeds" that lack > >tap roots or runners. > > > Tom > > > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:49 AM > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > > > > > > > >Howdy > > > >Thomas Kelly wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > > What do you mean "a dilute solution"? I > sprayed the FFAs, full > > > strength, on the leaves of some "weeds". > > > >I guess my assumption was wrong- when I recover > ffa's I get a very > >viscous liquid which would be hard to spray. but > then my wvo is about > >half saturated fat. > > > > > > > One day later ~24hrs, the leaves were browning > and wilted. > > > >I think todd also mentioned such an effect. I sure > would like to see > >some references on the mechanism of this effect. > > > > > How would I test the pH of FFAs? I use wide > range pH paper to test > >my > > > wash water. I don't think they'll work on FFAs. > > > >try taking a gram or so of your ffa's and add it to > about 100ml water. > >Free fatty acids will not dissolve well and should > not change the pH > >paper reading. I just tried it with a sample of > oleic acid. pH of the > >solution/emulsion was unchanged after adding the > oleic acid. > > > > > > > It appears as though some of the weeds I > sprayed last week are > > > sending > > > up new shoots. > > > >I'll try spraying some oleic acid on a plant or two > (as soon as it quits > >raining) and see what happens. > > > > > > > >Tom > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 11:34 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > > > > > > > > > howdy Thomas > > > > > > I am a little surprised that a dilute solution > of ffa's would have any > > > impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My > guess is that your > > > solution contains more
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
From what I remember from my botany courses, plant leaves are also very tightly regulated to reduce water loss. A leaf is basically a large, flat surface coursing with fluid; exactly what you would do to promote evaporation. To slow evap., most leaves have passive pores that close in dry conditions as well as a secreted waxy surface. If the FFA were disrupting the waxy surface or causing the pores to open or both, you would get rapid fluid loss, browning, wilting, etc., but the plant would repair and recover in a short time. Gooeyness...hmmm...surface gooeyness? Or the whole leaf is a spongey mess? Maybe the waxy seal balling up like oil drops in water? Ryan From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:25:47 -0400 Bob, In response to my note: "One day later ~24hrs, the leaves were browning and wilted." You wrote: " I sure would like to see some references on the mechanism of this effect." I wonder if the FFAs are disrupting the structure of cell membranes. All cell membranes are phospholipid bilayers with hydrophobic fatty acids pointing inward towards each other and away from water. The hydrophilic phosphates are on the inner and outer surfaces interacting w. water. Replace water w.FFAs and this structure could be compromised. After 24 hrs the leaves are more than wilted, they are gooey (for lack of a better word). I'd be interested in knowing the mechanism as well. I dug up a few treated dandelions 3 - 4 days after treatment. The roots seemed fine. This morning, a week after treatment, some of the sprayed plants are sprouting new leaves and the sickly-looking dandelions have sent up new flowers. The effect does not seem to be systemic. I like that. It seems very effective against a variety of "weeds" that lack tap roots or runners. Tom - Original Message - From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer Howdy Thomas Kelly wrote: > Hi Bob, > What do you mean "a dilute solution"? I sprayed the FFAs, full > strength, on the leaves of some "weeds". I guess my assumption was wrong- when I recover ffa's I get a very viscous liquid which would be hard to spray. but then my wvo is about half saturated fat. > One day later ~24hrs, the leaves were browning and wilted. I think todd also mentioned such an effect. I sure would like to see some references on the mechanism of this effect. > How would I test the pH of FFAs? I use wide range pH paper to test my > wash water. I don't think they'll work on FFAs. try taking a gram or so of your ffa's and add it to about 100ml water. Free fatty acids will not dissolve well and should not change the pH paper reading. I just tried it with a sample of oleic acid. pH of the solution/emulsion was unchanged after adding the oleic acid. > It appears as though some of the weeds I sprayed last week are > sending > up new shoots. I'll try spraying some oleic acid on a plant or two (as soon as it quits raining) and see what happens. > Tom > - Original Message - > From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > > > howdy Thomas > > I am a little surprised that a dilute solution of ffa's would have any > impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My guess is that your > solution contains more than ffa's. What is the pH ? how about total > dissolved solids, ie salts ? Do you have any idea of the concentration > of the ffa (in water I assume)? > > Thomas Kelly wrote: >>I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" >> and caring for my plants from the ground up. >> I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from >> the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to >> deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results >> (dead insects or "weeds"). >>I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium >> (and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >>Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that >> hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to >> discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all >> withering. >>I'm a bit taken back. T
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Bob, In response to my note: "One day later ~24hrs, the leaves were browning and wilted." You wrote: " I sure would like to see some references on the mechanism of this effect." I wonder if the FFAs are disrupting the structure of cell membranes. All cell membranes are phospholipid bilayers with hydrophobic fatty acids pointing inward towards each other and away from water. The hydrophilic phosphates are on the inner and outer surfaces interacting w. water. Replace water w.FFAs and this structure could be compromised. After 24 hrs the leaves are more than wilted, they are gooey (for lack of a better word). I'd be interested in knowing the mechanism as well. I dug up a few treated dandelions 3 - 4 days after treatment. The roots seemed fine. This morning, a week after treatment, some of the sprayed plants are sprouting new leaves and the sickly-looking dandelions have sent up new flowers. The effect does not seem to be systemic. I like that. It seems very effective against a variety of "weeds" that lack tap roots or runners. Tom - Original Message - From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer Howdy Thomas Kelly wrote: > Hi Bob, > What do you mean "a dilute solution"? I sprayed the FFAs, full > strength, on the leaves of some "weeds". I guess my assumption was wrong- when I recover ffa's I get a very viscous liquid which would be hard to spray. but then my wvo is about half saturated fat. > One day later ~24hrs, the leaves were browning and wilted. I think todd also mentioned such an effect. I sure would like to see some references on the mechanism of this effect. > How would I test the pH of FFAs? I use wide range pH paper to test my > wash water. I don't think they'll work on FFAs. try taking a gram or so of your ffa's and add it to about 100ml water. Free fatty acids will not dissolve well and should not change the pH paper reading. I just tried it with a sample of oleic acid. pH of the solution/emulsion was unchanged after adding the oleic acid. > It appears as though some of the weeds I sprayed last week are > sending > up new shoots. I'll try spraying some oleic acid on a plant or two (as soon as it quits raining) and see what happens. > Tom > - Original Message ----- > From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > > > howdy Thomas > > I am a little surprised that a dilute solution of ffa's would have any > impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My guess is that your > solution contains more than ffa's. What is the pH ? how about total > dissolved solids, ie salts ? Do you have any idea of the concentration > of the ffa (in water I assume)? > > Thomas Kelly wrote: >>I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" >> and caring for my plants from the ground up. >> I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from >> the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to >> deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results >> (dead insects or "weeds"). >>I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium >> (and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >>Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that >> hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to >> discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all >> withering. >>I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, >> mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't see >> any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are >> working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and >> discouragement with thick mulch. >> The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only >> 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? >> Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it systemic >> or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only acts on the >> leaves, will new shoots be sent up? >> If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed killers, >> it would be
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Hi Tom >Hi Keith, > > > Good for you! Thirty years in the same place? > >This is the 28th year for this garden. I don't even want to think about how many places I've lived in in the last 28 years. I'm trying to do the same thing here in 18 months! Well, I've done it before. I'd just love to go on building it up for another 25 years, but I won't have that chance. Actually only part of me would like that, the rest wouldn't, I'd soon rebel. We'll be off when we're finished, even if we keep the place on. >I have an area about 5M X 7M that hasn't been turned yet. Weeds have >stuck their heads up and I did spray some of them with the FFA's two days >ago. I used a hand sprayer and aimed directly at the leaves to minimize soil >"contamination". I don't doubt that FFA's break down rapidly in the soil, >but I was a little startled at how effective they are at damaging the leaves >of plants. >If they only kill the leaf, and are not systemic poisons, then shouldn't the >plant just send up new shoots? If it's strong enough to survive the loss. I guess "weeds" and rough grasses should usually be strong enough. > Enough of this writing. Time to go to work. I'll spray the weeds living >in 1/2 of the section and turn them under. I'll pull the weeds from the >other 1/2 as I turn the soil. >Maybe I'll even pot a few weeds and spray them to see if they regenerate. I shall watch with interest from afar. Best Keith > Tom > - Original Message - >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:51 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > > > > Hello Tom > > > >> I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building > >>dirt" and caring for my plants from the ground up. > > > > Good for you! Thirty years in the same place? > > > >>I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them > >>from the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured > >>others to deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real > >>obvious results (dead insects or "weeds"). > >> I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium > >>(and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. > >> Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden > >>that hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It > >>didn't seem to discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, > >>grass all withering. > >> I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, > >>mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't > >>see any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they > >>are working ... I don't care which. > > > > I think they discourage rather than kill, either directly or by > > strengthening the plant's resistance. > > > >>Weeds involve physical removal and discouragement with thick mulch. > >> The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble > >>only 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on > >>plants? Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is > >>it systemic or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it > >>only acts on the leaves, will new shoots be sent up? > >> If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed > >>killers, it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns > >>each section of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the > >>weeds. I don't mind the turning, countless tons of compost over the > >>years has turned shallow hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that > >>takes little effort to turn. It's the bending to pick the "weeds" > >>that gets to my back. > >> I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both > >>mentioned FFA's as weed killer. > > > > Also Ken Provost. > > > > You ask the same questions I do. I've been wanting to run some > > side-by-side trials of FFA, raw by-product and vinegar, especially of > > FFA, but I'm put off by not knowing the mechanism, especially whether > > it's systemic or point-of-contact, and its residual effect on the > > soil life before it breaks down. What will FFA do to something like > > mycorrhizal fungi? I know that raw by-product kills worms, > > unsurprisingly, I expect FFA will too. So I'm reluctant to use it. > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > > >> My back thanks you, > >>Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Howdy Thomas Kelly wrote: > Hi Bob, > What do you mean "a dilute solution"? I sprayed the FFAs, full > strength, on the leaves of some "weeds". I guess my assumption was wrong- when I recover ffa's I get a very viscous liquid which would be hard to spray. but then my wvo is about half saturated fat. > One day later ~24hrs, the leaves were browning and wilted. I think todd also mentioned such an effect. I sure would like to see some references on the mechanism of this effect. > How would I test the pH of FFAs? I use wide range pH paper to test my > wash water. I don't think they'll work on FFAs. try taking a gram or so of your ffa's and add it to about 100ml water. Free fatty acids will not dissolve well and should not change the pH paper reading. I just tried it with a sample of oleic acid. pH of the solution/emulsion was unchanged after adding the oleic acid. > It appears as though some of the weeds I sprayed last week are sending > up new shoots. I'll try spraying some oleic acid on a plant or two (as soon as it quits raining) and see what happens. > Tom > - Original Message - > From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > > > howdy Thomas > > I am a little surprised that a dilute solution of ffa's would have any > impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My guess is that your > solution contains more than ffa's. What is the pH ? how about total > dissolved solids, ie salts ? Do you have any idea of the concentration > of the ffa (in water I assume)? > > Thomas Kelly wrote: >>I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" >> and caring for my plants from the ground up. >> I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from >> the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to >> deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results >> (dead insects or "weeds"). >>I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium >> (and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >>Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that >> hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to >> discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all >> withering. >>I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, >> mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't see >> any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are >> working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and >> discouragement with thick mulch. >> The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only >> 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? >> Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it systemic >> or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only acts on the >> leaves, will new shoots be sent up? >> If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed killers, >> it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns each section >> of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the weeds. I don't mind >> the turning, countless tons of compost over the years has turned shallow >> hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that takes little effort to turn. >> It's the bending to pick the "weeds" that gets to my back. >> I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both mentioned >> FFA's as weed killer. >> My back thanks you, >> Tom >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Biofuel mailing list >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages): >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> > > -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Hi Bob, What do you mean "a dilute solution"? I sprayed the FFAs, full strength, on the leaves of some "weeds". One day later ~24hrs, the leaves were browning and wilted. How would I test the pH of FFAs? I use wide range pH paper to test my wash water. I don't think they'll work on FFAs. It appears as though some of the weeds I sprayed last week are sending up new shoots. Tom - Original Message - From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer howdy Thomas I am a little surprised that a dilute solution of ffa's would have any impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My guess is that your solution contains more than ffa's. What is the pH ? how about total dissolved solids, ie salts ? Do you have any idea of the concentration of the ffa (in water I assume)? Thomas Kelly wrote: >I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" > and caring for my plants from the ground up. > I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from > the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to > deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results > (dead insects or "weeds"). >I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium > (and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that > hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to > discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all > withering. >I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, > mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't see > any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are > working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and > discouragement with thick mulch. > The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only > 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? > Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it systemic > or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only acts on the > leaves, will new shoots be sent up? > If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed killers, > it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns each section > of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the weeds. I don't mind > the turning, countless tons of compost over the years has turned shallow > hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that takes little effort to turn. > It's the bending to pick the "weeds" that gets to my back. > I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both mentioned > FFA's as weed killer. > My back thanks you, > Tom > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
See the glycerol separation section at JTF. FFAs (100% "pure") rise to the surface. They're not soluble in water. In their pure state they would be be applied in a similar manner as used by county and state road crews to curb weeds along asphalt roadways. Todd Swearingen . Mike Weaver wrote: >How do you separate out the FFA's? > >bob allen wrote: > > > >> howdy Thomas >> >>I am a little surprised that a dilute solution of ffa's would have any >>impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My guess is that your >>solution contains more than ffa's. What is the pH ? how about total >>dissolved solids, ie salts ? Do you have any idea of the concentration >>of the ffa (in water I assume)? >> >>Thomas Kelly wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" >>>and caring for my plants from the ground up. >>>I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from >>>the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to >>>deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results >>>(dead insects or "weeds"). >>> I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium >>>(and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >>> Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that >>>hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to >>>discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all >>>withering. >>> I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, >>>mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't see >>>any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are >>>working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and >>>discouragement with thick mulch. >>>The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only >>>24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? >>>Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it systemic >>>or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only acts on the >>>leaves, will new shoots be sent up? >>>If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed killers, >>>it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns each section >>>of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the weeds. I don't mind >>>the turning, countless tons of compost over the years has turned shallow >>>hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that takes little effort to turn. >>>It's the bending to pick the "weeds" that gets to my back. >>>I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both mentioned >>>FFA's as weed killer. >>>My back thanks you, >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>___ >>>Biofuel mailing list >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
How do you separate out the FFA's? bob allen wrote: > howdy Thomas > >I am a little surprised that a dilute solution of ffa's would have any >impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My guess is that your >solution contains more than ffa's. What is the pH ? how about total >dissolved solids, ie salts ? Do you have any idea of the concentration >of the ffa (in water I assume)? > >Thomas Kelly wrote: > > >> I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" >>and caring for my plants from the ground up. >>I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from >>the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to >>deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results >>(dead insects or "weeds"). >> I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium >>(and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >> Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that >>hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to >>discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all >>withering. >> I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, >>mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't see >>any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are >>working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and >>discouragement with thick mulch. >> The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only >>24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? >>Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it systemic >>or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only acts on the >>leaves, will new shoots be sent up? >> If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed killers, >>it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns each section >>of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the weeds. I don't mind >>the turning, countless tons of compost over the years has turned shallow >>hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that takes little effort to turn. >>It's the bending to pick the "weeds" that gets to my back. >> I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both mentioned >>FFA's as weed killer. >> My back thanks you, >>Tom >> >> >> >> >>___ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
howdy Thomas I am a little surprised that a dilute solution of ffa's would have any impact on plant life over a 24 hour period. My guess is that your solution contains more than ffa's. What is the pH ? how about total dissolved solids, ie salts ? Do you have any idea of the concentration of the ffa (in water I assume)? Thomas Kelly wrote: >I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" > and caring for my plants from the ground up. > I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from > the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to > deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results > (dead insects or "weeds"). >I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium > (and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that > hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to > discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all > withering. >I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, > mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't see > any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are > working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and > discouragement with thick mulch. > The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only > 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? > Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it systemic > or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only acts on the > leaves, will new shoots be sent up? > If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed killers, > it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns each section > of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the weeds. I don't mind > the turning, countless tons of compost over the years has turned shallow > hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that takes little effort to turn. > It's the bending to pick the "weeds" that gets to my back. > I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both mentioned > FFA's as weed killer. > My back thanks you, > Tom > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Hi Keith, > Good for you! Thirty years in the same place? This is the 28th year for this garden. I have an area about 5M X 7M that hasn't been turned yet. Weeds have stuck their heads up and I did spray some of them with the FFA's two days ago. I used a hand sprayer and aimed directly at the leaves to minimize soil "contamination". I don't doubt that FFA's break down rapidly in the soil, but I was a little startled at how effective they are at damaging the leaves of plants. If they only kill the leaf, and are not systemic poisons, then shouldn't the plant just send up new shoots? Enough of this writing. Time to go to work. I'll spray the weeds living in 1/2 of the section and turn them under. I'll pull the weeds from the other 1/2 as I turn the soil. Maybe I'll even pot a few weeds and spray them to see if they regenerate. Tom - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer > Hello Tom > >> I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building >>dirt" and caring for my plants from the ground up. > > Good for you! Thirty years in the same place? > >>I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them >>from the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured >>others to deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real >>obvious results (dead insects or "weeds"). >> I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium >>(and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >> Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden >>that hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It >>didn't seem to discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, >>grass all withering. >> I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, >>mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't >>see any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they >>are working ... I don't care which. > > I think they discourage rather than kill, either directly or by > strengthening the plant's resistance. > >>Weeds involve physical removal and discouragement with thick mulch. >> The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble >>only 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on >>plants? Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is >>it systemic or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it >>only acts on the leaves, will new shoots be sent up? >> If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed >>killers, it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns >>each section of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the >>weeds. I don't mind the turning, countless tons of compost over the >>years has turned shallow hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that >>takes little effort to turn. It's the bending to pick the "weeds" >>that gets to my back. >> I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both >>mentioned FFA's as weed killer. > > Also Ken Provost. > > You ask the same questions I do. I've been wanting to run some > side-by-side trials of FFA, raw by-product and vinegar, especially of > FFA, but I'm put off by not knowing the mechanism, especially whether > it's systemic or point-of-contact, and its residual effect on the > soil life before it breaks down. What will FFA do to something like > mycorrhizal fungi? I know that raw by-product kills worms, > unsurprisingly, I expect FFA will too. So I'm reluctant to use it. > > Best > > Keith > > >> My back thanks you, >>Tom > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Hello Tom > I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building >dirt" and caring for my plants from the ground up. Good for you! Thirty years in the same place? >I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them >from the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured >others to deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real >obvious results (dead insects or "weeds"). > I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium >(and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. > Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden >that hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It >didn't seem to discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, >grass all withering. > I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, >mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't >see any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they >are working ... I don't care which. I think they discourage rather than kill, either directly or by strengthening the plant's resistance. >Weeds involve physical removal and discouragement with thick mulch. > The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble >only 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on >plants? Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is >it systemic or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it >only acts on the leaves, will new shoots be sent up? > If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed >killers, it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns >each section of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the >weeds. I don't mind the turning, countless tons of compost over the >years has turned shallow hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that >takes little effort to turn. It's the bending to pick the "weeds" >that gets to my back. > I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both >mentioned FFA's as weed killer. Also Ken Provost. You ask the same questions I do. I've been wanting to run some side-by-side trials of FFA, raw by-product and vinegar, especially of FFA, but I'm put off by not knowing the mechanism, especially whether it's systemic or point-of-contact, and its residual effect on the soil life before it breaks down. What will FFA do to something like mycorrhizal fungi? I know that raw by-product kills worms, unsurprisingly, I expect FFA will too. So I'm reluctant to use it. Best Keith > My back thanks you, >Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
> What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? Suffocation and some burning if in direct sunlight. The consolation about veg oils or FFAs when land applied is that the microbes needed to degrade them are readily present and in high populations, opposed to fossil oils, where the type needed are very small in number in comparison. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: >I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building > dirt" and caring for my plants from the ground up. > I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them > from the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured > others to deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real > obvious results (dead insects or "weeds"). >I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium > (and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. >Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden > that hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't > seem to discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass > all withering. >I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, > mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't > see any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are > working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and > discouragement with thick mulch. > The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only > 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? > Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it > systemic or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only > acts on the leaves, will new shoots be sent up? > If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed > killers, it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns > each section of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the > weeds. I don't mind the turning, countless tons of compost over the > years has turned shallow hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that > takes little effort to turn. It's the bending to pick the "weeds" that > gets to my back. > I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both mentioned > FFA's as weed killer. > My back thanks you, > Tom > > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > >Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.4/319 - Release Date: 4/19/2006 > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
I've been gardening for over 30 years by essentially "building dirt" and caring for my plants from the ground up. I've been know to chop off a weed's head now and again or yank them from the ground. I've squished "bugs" by the thousands and lured others to deadly traps. I've never used a spray that has any real obvious results (dead insects or "weeds"). I've been splitting my glycerine co-product into FFA's, potassium (and some sodium) phosphate, and crude glycerine. Yesterday I sprayed FFA's on some weeds in an area of the garden that hasn't been turned yet. Today they appear to be dying. It didn't seem to discriminate ... dandelions, wild mustard, plantain, grass all withering. I'm a bit taken back. The sprays I concoct from chives, peppers, mulberry leaves etc. are intended to repel/discourage pests. I don't see any corpses. It's more a matter of faith or delusion that they are working ... I don't care which. Weeds involve physical removal and discouragement with thick mulch. The "weeds" sprayed w. FFA's appear to be in serious trouble only 24 hrs after spraying. What is the mechanism of FFA action on plants? Does it act on the lipid component of the cell membranes? Is it systemic or just act on the point of contact - the leaves. If it only acts on the leaves, will new shoots be sent up? If FFA's are non-toxic, biodegradable, and effective weed killers, it would be very good news to an aging gardener who turns each section of the garden by hand, meticulously picking out the weeds. I don't mind the turning, countless tons of compost over the years has turned shallow hard-pan clay into beautiful rich soil that takes little effort to turn. It's the bending to pick the "weeds" that gets to my back. I believe Todd Swearingen and Prof. Bob Allen have both mentioned FFA's as weed killer. My back thanks you, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
