Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[sj_patrick]

Thank to both Keith and Tom, 



For clarifying the use of the FFA formula regarding KOH or NaOH.. 



Since I use KOH, my titration solution is also based on .1% KOH... Never use 
NaOH for tirtrating or otherwise. 



I many time I have been approached to sell my oil by brokers and homebrewers,  
brokers are always talking %FFA and homebrewers are ml of titration.. 



See this formula drew my interest as an easy means to convert one to the other 
with a fair amount of accuracy... 





Thanks again.. 



Shawn 
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 6:25:49 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil 

>I guess I am not clear on a few of the following points: 
> 
>     * Are we to assume 1mole of KOH nuetralizes 1mole of OA as does NaOH 
>     * What %KOH is to be used as with this assumption, is there some 
>compensation factor for vary %KOH 

Yes, the same conversion as always, depending on the concentration of your KOH. 

If you're not clear on that, then how do you know how much KOH to use 
for your biodiesel? 

>Are you assuming that the Biofuel Systems calculation is correct? I 
>don't know if it's correct or not. 

It seems you are assuming that. How will knowing the %FFA be useful 
to you? Just interested to know. 

Best 

Keith 



>Shawn 
> 
> 
> 
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
>Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 2:17:42 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil 
> 
>>Found this email in my list of unopened and I am curious... 
>> 
>>For those of us who use KOH...  How would this formula translate... 
> 
>The same way as usual. What's the difficulty? 
> 
>Everybody uses KOH, or they should, but titration levels are usually 
>given for NaOH. A good reason for that is that NaOH is always the 
>same concentration, 99%+, and KOH varies. 
> 
>Are you assuming that the Biofuel Systems calculation is correct? I 
>don't know if it's correct or not. 
> 
>Keith 
> 
> 
>>Shawn 
>>- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
>>Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 6:01:34 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
>>Subject: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil 
>> 
>>Hi all 
>> 
>>I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer 
>>titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA. 
>> 
>>This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK 
>><http://www.biofuelsystems.com/>. Can anyone confirm whether it's 
>>correct or not? 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>How to determine percentage free fatty acid (%FFA) of vegetable oil / 
>>used cooking oil 
>> 
>>Add 10ml of oil to 100ml of isopropyl alchohol (propan-2-ol) 
>> 
>>Mix thoroughly until oil dissolves. Add a few drops of Universal 
>>Indicator solution (UI) 
>> 
>>Measure how much 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution (1g NaOH / 1 litre 
>>water) is required to neutralise the oil solution - ie. raise pH to 8 
>>/ turn UI blue/green 
>> 
>>While continually stirring this mixture, add the NaOH solution drop 
>>by drop until the mixture turns and remains green / blue. Note the 
>>number of millilitres (ml) of NaOH solution required to do this. 
>> 
>>In stoichiometric terms, 1 mole NaOH will neutralise 1 mole of 
>>oleic acid (OA) 
>> 
>>Firstly, determine how many moles of NaOH have been used· 
>> 
>>Moles = molarity (mol/l) x volume (l) = [ molarity x volume (ml) ÷ 1000 ] 
>> 
>>Example 
>>If 10ml of NaOH solution was used 
>> 
>>Moles of NaOH = (molarity of solution x volume in ml) ÷ 1000 
>> 
>>= (0.025 x 10) ÷ 1000 
>> 
>>= 0.00025 moles of NaOH 
>> 
>>Therefore, the equivalent to 0.00025 moles of OA have been neutralised 
>> 
>>mass = moles x molecular weight (molecular weight of OA is 282.52 Daltons) 
>>mass of OA in 10ml sample = 0.00025 x 282.52 
>>   = 0.07063 
>> 
>>= 0.7063g per 100ml of oil 
>> 
>>rounding to 2 decimal places, %FFA = 0.71 
>> 
>>Put simply... 
>>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.07063 
>> 
>>- 
>> 
>>Since most homebrewers use 1 ml of oil in 10 ml of isopropanol, 
>>that would be: 
>>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.7063 
>> 
>>I guess blue/green Universal Indicator

Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[Keith Addison]

Hi Tom

Thankyou, nice!

>Keith,
>
>  I was hoping to hear from someone with greater expertise in the area,
>but will pass along my thoughts.
>
>  I'm not sure that the calculations provided from Biofuels Systems are
>accurate for the following reasons.
>   1.  The % FFA calculations were based on the neutralization of Oleic Acid
>(molecular mass = 283).
>  The idea, as I see it, is that calculations can be made to determine
>the mass of substances consumed in reactions, if we know the mass of one of
>the consumed reactants and know the ratio(s) of the involved reactants.
>Ex.  If we know the mass of NaOH needed to neutralize a known volume of a
>specific acid, and we know that there exists a 1-to-1 ratio for the
>reaction, we can calculate the mass of the acid that is neutralized.
>  -However many moles of NaOH were consumed will equal the moles of acid
>neutralized.
> -The mass of the acid neutralized =  moles neutralized   X  mol. mass of
>the acid
>
>Problem:
>Used vegetable oils have a mix of free fatty acids, with different molecular
>masses, and hence different masses per mole. To do an accurate calculation
>of  % FFA in veg oil, I think we would need to know the specific FFAs
>present, in what concentrations, and the molecular mass of each.

I'm sure you're right. According to this table, the molecular weight 
of common fatty acids varies from 88 to 324, and oleic acid is 282:
<http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html>

>After all,
>We wouldn't use a titration solution with an unknown mix of NaOH and KOH to
>do a quantitative analysis.

We wouldn't, no.

>  Although I've heard it referred to, I don't know why one would want to
>know %FFA in veg oil.

It seems to be the way chemists do it, where we give a titration 
result, they talk of %FFA. Maybe it's just a comparative measure 
rather than a real-world one: if this WVO were pure oleic acid it 
would have this much FFA in it, as opposed to that WVO, if it were 
also pure oleic acid. It reminds me a bit of the way they test the 
protein content of grain crops and so on: N x 6.25, which is the 
ratio of N in protein. I think that presumes a lot, but it's easy to 
measure N and very difficult to measure protein. You see. Or 
something like that.

Quite often chemists write to me about this or that %FFA oil, I 
encounter it in various reports too, and it would be nice to know 
what that means when it comes to processing it.

Personally I'll stick with titration results.

>   2. To determine %, one divides the total mass by the mass of the
>individual component and then multiply by 100
>   Ex.  1 g of NaOH + enough distilled water to equal 1 L
>  The total mass of the solution = 1000g
>  1g NaOH divided by 1000g  =  .001X  100   =  0.1%
>
> The Biofuel Systems calculations state that there is 0.7063 g of FFA in
>100ml of oil. It then divides mass by volume  ().  It assumes that 100ml
>of the oil has a mass of 100g.

So he does, you're right.

>This would be true if it was water instead of
>oil. The veg oils I am familiar with float on water indicating a lower
>density  ...   I think along the order of 0.9g/ml

Close to that.

>  At 0.9g/ml, the 100ml sample of veg oil would have a mass of 90g
>  0.7063g divided by 90g  X  100  =   0.785%
>vs  The 0.71% calculated in the example provided by Biofuel systems.
>
>  If the oil being tested is very high in oleic acid, and we use the
>density of the oil when calculating %, I suspect we could get a "ballpark"
>figure for % FFAs in a sample of veg oil.

According to the chart I reffed above it works quite well for some 
oils, especially soy. But not rapeseed. Hm. Interesting.

>We might just as well use 0.75 -
>0.80 as a coefficient (constant) and multiply it times the NaOH titration
>result rather than going through the laborious calculations described.

Good! That's much better. And divide by 0.785% to convert %FFA to a 
ballpark titration result.

Many thanks Tom, very good answer, IMHO.

Regards

Keith


>  Although I've heard it referred to, I don't know why one would want to
>know %FFA in veg oil.
>Best to You,
>  Tom
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:01 AM
>Subject: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil
>
>
>Hi all
>
>I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer
>titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA.
>
>This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK
><http://www.biofuelsystems.com/>. Can anyone confirm whether it's
>correc

Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[Thomas Kelly]

Keith,

 I was hoping to hear from someone with greater expertise in the area, 
but will pass along my thoughts.

 I'm not sure that the calculations provided from Biofuels Systems are 
accurate for the following reasons.
  1.  The % FFA calculations were based on the neutralization of Oleic Acid 
(molecular mass = 283).
 The idea, as I see it, is that calculations can be made to determine 
the mass of substances consumed in reactions, if we know the mass of one of 
the consumed reactants and know the ratio(s) of the involved reactants.
   Ex.  If we know the mass of NaOH needed to neutralize a known volume of a 
specific acid, and we know that there exists a 1-to-1 ratio for the 
reaction, we can calculate the mass of the acid that is neutralized.
 -However many moles of NaOH were consumed will equal the moles of acid 
neutralized.
-The mass of the acid neutralized =  moles neutralized   X  mol. mass of 
the acid

Problem:
Used vegetable oils have a mix of free fatty acids, with different molecular 
masses, and hence different masses per mole. To do an accurate calculation 
of  % FFA in veg oil, I think we would need to know the specific FFAs 
present, in what concentrations, and the molecular mass of each. After all, 
We wouldn't use a titration solution with an unknown mix of NaOH and KOH to 
do a quantitative analysis.


  2. To determine %, one divides the total mass by the mass of the 
individual component and then multiply by 100
  Ex.  1 g of NaOH + enough distilled water to equal 1 L
 The total mass of the solution = 1000g
 1g NaOH divided by 1000g  =  .001X  100   =  0.1%

The Biofuel Systems calculations state that there is 0.7063 g of FFA in 
100ml of oil. It then divides mass by volume  ().  It assumes that 100ml 
of the oil has a mass of 100g. This would be true if it was water instead of 
oil. The veg oils I am familiar with float on water indicating a lower 
density  ...   I think along the order of 0.9g/ml
 At 0.9g/ml, the 100ml sample of veg oil would have a mass of 90g
 0.7063g divided by 90g  X  100  =   0.785%
vs  The 0.71% calculated in the example provided by Biofuel systems.

 If the oil being tested is very high in oleic acid, and we use the 
density of the oil when calculating %, I suspect we could get a "ballpark" 
figure for % FFAs in a sample of veg oil. We might just as well use 0.75 - 
0.80 as a coefficient (constant) and multiply it times the NaOH titration 
result rather than going through the laborious calculations described.

 Although I've heard it referred to, I don't know why one would want to 
know %FFA in veg oil.
   Best to You,
 Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:01 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil


Hi all

I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer
titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA.

This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK
<http://www.biofuelsystems.com/>. Can anyone confirm whether it's
correct or not?



How to determine percentage free fatty acid (%FFA) of vegetable oil /
used cooking oil

Add 10ml of oil to 100ml of isopropyl alchohol (propan-2-ol)

Mix thoroughly until oil dissolves. Add a few drops of Universal
Indicator solution (UI)

Measure how much 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution (1g NaOH / 1 litre
water) is required to neutralise the oil solution - ie. raise pH to 8
/ turn UI blue/green

While continually stirring this mixture, add the NaOH solution drop
by drop until the mixture turns and remains green / blue. Note the
number of millilitres (ml) of NaOH solution required to do this.

In stoichiometric terms, 1 mole NaOH will neutralise 1 mole of oleic acid 
(OA)

Firstly, determine how many moles of NaOH have been usedS

Moles = molarity (mol/l) x volume (l) = [ molarity x volume (ml) ÷ 1000 ]

Example
If 10ml of NaOH solution was used

Moles of NaOH = (molarity of solution x volume in ml) ÷ 1000

= (0.025 x 10) ÷ 1000

= 0.00025 moles of NaOH

Therefore, the equivalent to 0.00025 moles of OA have been neutralised

mass = moles x molecular weight (molecular weight of OA is 282.52 Daltons)
mass of OA in 10ml sample = 0.00025 x 282.52
 = 0.07063

= 0.7063g per 100ml of oil

rounding to 2 decimal places, %FFA = 0.71

Put simply...
%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.07063

-

Since most homebrewers use 1 ml of oil in 10 ml of isopropanol, that would 
be:
%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.7063

I guess blue/green Universal Indicator solution is the same as
magenta phenolphthalein, no?

Thanks!

Best

Keith




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Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[Thomas Kelly]

Shawn,
You ask:
>• Are we to assume 1mole of KOH nuetralizes 1mole of OA as does NaOH
>• What %KOH is to be used as with this assumption, is there some 
> compensation
> factor for vary %KOH

   I will give it a try.
   The following is based on information provided at JtF. Any mistakes I 
make are mine alone.

 1. >• Are we to assume 1mole of KOH nuetralizes 1mole of OA as does 
NaOH

   Yes, I would think that 1 mole of KOH would neutralize 1 mole of Oleic 
Acid as does 1 mole of NaOH.
   A mole of a substance contains the same number of molecules as a mole of 
any other substance. If 1 NaOH molecule neutralizes 1 O.A. molecule,  then 1 
KOH will also neutralize 1 O.A.

 2.  >• What %KOH is to be used as with this assumption, is there some 
compensation
  > factor for vary %KOH

  It is important to know the concentration ("purity") of the KOH being used 
in order to calculate the molarity of the KOH titration solution. That is, 
how do you know how much mass constitutes a mole of a substance if you don't 
know the purity of the substance you are measuring?
 You may want to skip to*

To be sure we are talking about the same thing:
A mole of a substance is equal to the molecular mass of the substance in 
grams.
 A mole of Sodium Hydroxide  (NaOH)  =  40 g
 i.e. The sum of the atomic masses ofNa (23)  O (16) and  H  (1)

A mole of Potassium Hydroxide (KOH)  = 56 g
K (39)  +  O (16)  +  H (1)

 Therefore in order to achieve equal molarity, we must increase KOH over 
NaOH by a factor of 1.4  (56 divided by 40)

 To do the calculations described by Biofuel Systems using a KOH 
titration solution rather than a  0.1%  NaOH titration solution we must do 
two things.
1. Either
   a) make KOH solution of equal molarity (0.025 M) to the NaOH solution 
by
dissolving 1.4g KOH to get a 1L titration solution
   (0.025moles/L  X  56 g KOH/mole = 1.4g KOH/L)
Orb) make a 0.1% solution of pure KOH and multiply titration results by 
1.4
Orc) make a 0.1% solution of pure KOH realizing that it is a 0.0179 
molar solution
rather than the 0.025 molar solution used in the calculations and 
then use 0.0179
moles in the calculation of Oleic Acid mass

2.   As was pointed out by Keith,  NaOH is typically used as a titration 
solution because it is easily obtained at purities approaching 100%. KOH is 
typically 90% pure or even 85% pure.
To compensate for this one must divide the amount of KOH by its purity to 
determine the number of grams needed to produce a mole of KOH
Ex:
  56 g of 100% pure KOH = 1 mole of KOH
  If the KOH is 90% pure:divide 56g by  .9->  62.2g of the KOH = 
1 mole

*** To compensate for titration results obtained from a 0.1%  KOH titration 
solution
(To get the results that would be produced on the same veg oil using a 0.1% 
NaOH titration solution.)
a. Multiply KOH titration results by the purity
b. Then divide by 1.4
Ex
If 3ml of 0.1% KOH (made from 90% KOH) neutralized 1ml of veg oil:
 a)  3ml (hence 3mg KOH of 90% KOH))  X  .9  =  2.7ml (made from pure 
KOH)
 b)  2.7ml divided by  1.4  =  1.93ml
 1.93 ml of 0.1% NaOH solution would have neutralized the same volume of the 
same veg oil as 3ml of 0.1% KOH solution made from 90% KOH

 Use the 1.93ml in the calculation provided by Biofuel Systems.

 Tom
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil


>
>
> I guess I am not clear on a few of the following points:
>
>
>
>• Are we to assume 1mole of KOH nuetralizes 1mole of OA as does NaOH
>• What %KOH is to be used as with this assumption, is there some 
> compensation factor for vary %KOH
>
>
>
> Shawn
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 2:17:42 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil
>
>>Found this email in my list of unopened and I am curious...
>>
>>For those of us who use KOH... How would this formula translate...
>
> The same way as usual. What's the difficulty?
>
> Everybody uses KOH, or they should, but titration levels are usually
> given for NaOH. A good reason for that is that NaOH is always the
> same concentration, 99%+, and KOH varies.
>
> Are you assuming that the Biofuel Systems calculation is correct? I
> don't know if it's correct or not.
>
> Keith
>
>
>>Shawn
>>- Original Message - 
>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Sent: Monday

Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[Keith Addison]

>I guess I am not clear on a few of the following points:
>
> * Are we to assume 1mole of KOH nuetralizes 1mole of OA as does NaOH
> * What %KOH is to be used as with this assumption, is there some 
>compensation factor for vary %KOH

Yes, the same conversion as always, depending on the concentration of your KOH.

If you're not clear on that, then how do you know how much KOH to use 
for your biodiesel?

>Are you assuming that the Biofuel Systems calculation is correct? I
>don't know if it's correct or not.

It seems you are assuming that. How will knowing the %FFA be useful 
to you? Just interested to know.

Best

Keith



>Shawn
>
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 2:17:42 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil
>
>>Found this email in my list of unopened and I am curious...
>>
>>For those of us who use KOH...  How would this formula translate...
>
>The same way as usual. What's the difficulty?
>
>Everybody uses KOH, or they should, but titration levels are usually
>given for NaOH. A good reason for that is that NaOH is always the
>same concentration, 99%+, and KOH varies.
>
>Are you assuming that the Biofuel Systems calculation is correct? I
>don't know if it's correct or not.
>
>Keith
>
>
>>Shawn
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 6:01:34 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
>>Subject: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil
>>
>>Hi all
>>
>>I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer
>>titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA.
>>
>>This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK
>><http://www.biofuelsystems.com/>. Can anyone confirm whether it's
>>correct or not?
>>
>>
>>
>>How to determine percentage free fatty acid (%FFA) of vegetable oil /
>>used cooking oil
>>
>>Add 10ml of oil to 100ml of isopropyl alchohol (propan-2-ol)
>>
>>Mix thoroughly until oil dissolves. Add a few drops of Universal
>>Indicator solution (UI)
>>
>>Measure how much 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution (1g NaOH / 1 litre
>>water) is required to neutralise the oil solution - ie. raise pH to 8
>>/ turn UI blue/green
>>
>>While continually stirring this mixture, add the NaOH solution drop
>>by drop until the mixture turns and remains green / blue. Note the
>>number of millilitres (ml) of NaOH solution required to do this.
>>
>>In stoichiometric terms, 1 mole NaOH will neutralise 1 mole of 
>>oleic acid (OA)
>>
>>Firstly, determine how many moles of NaOH have been used·
>>
>>Moles = molarity (mol/l) x volume (l) = [ molarity x volume (ml) ÷ 1000 ]
>>
>>Example
>>If 10ml of NaOH solution was used
>>
>>Moles of NaOH = (molarity of solution x volume in ml) ÷ 1000
>>
>>= (0.025 x 10) ÷ 1000
>>
>>= 0.00025 moles of NaOH
>>
>>Therefore, the equivalent to 0.00025 moles of OA have been neutralised
>>
>>mass = moles x molecular weight (molecular weight of OA is 282.52 Daltons)
>>mass of OA in 10ml sample = 0.00025 x 282.52
>>   = 0.07063
>>
>>= 0.7063g per 100ml of oil
>>
>>rounding to 2 decimal places, %FFA = 0.71
>>
>>Put simply...
>>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.07063
>>
>>-
>>
>>Since most homebrewers use 1 ml of oil in 10 ml of isopropanol, 
>>that would be:
>>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.7063
>>
>>I guess blue/green Universal Indicator solution is the same as
>>magenta phenolphthalein, no?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Best
>>
>  >Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[sj_patrick]

I guess I am not clear on a few of the following points: 



• Are we to assume 1mole of KOH nuetralizes 1mole of OA as does NaOH 
• What %KOH is to be used as with this assumption, is there some 
compensation factor for vary %KOH 



Shawn 



- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 2:17:42 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil 

>Found this email in my list of unopened and I am curious... 
> 
>For those of us who use KOH...  How would this formula translate... 

The same way as usual. What's the difficulty? 

Everybody uses KOH, or they should, but titration levels are usually 
given for NaOH. A good reason for that is that NaOH is always the 
same concentration, 99%+, and KOH varies. 

Are you assuming that the Biofuel Systems calculation is correct? I 
don't know if it's correct or not. 

Keith 


>Shawn 
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
>Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 6:01:34 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
>Subject: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil 
> 
>Hi all 
> 
>I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer 
>titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA. 
> 
>This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK 
><http://www.biofuelsystems.com/>. Can anyone confirm whether it's 
>correct or not? 
> 
> 
> 
>How to determine percentage free fatty acid (%FFA) of vegetable oil / 
>used cooking oil 
> 
>Add 10ml of oil to 100ml of isopropyl alchohol (propan-2-ol) 
> 
>Mix thoroughly until oil dissolves. Add a few drops of Universal 
>Indicator solution (UI) 
> 
>Measure how much 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution (1g NaOH / 1 litre 
>water) is required to neutralise the oil solution - ie. raise pH to 8 
>/ turn UI blue/green 
> 
>While continually stirring this mixture, add the NaOH solution drop 
>by drop until the mixture turns and remains green / blue. Note the 
>number of millilitres (ml) of NaOH solution required to do this. 
> 
>In stoichiometric terms, 1 mole NaOH will neutralise 1 mole of oleic acid (OA) 
> 
>Firstly, determine how many moles of NaOH have been used· 
> 
>Moles = molarity (mol/l) x volume (l) = [ molarity x volume (ml) ÷ 1000 ] 
> 
>Example 
>If 10ml of NaOH solution was used 
> 
>Moles of NaOH = (molarity of solution x volume in ml) ÷ 1000 
> 
>= (0.025 x 10) ÷ 1000 
> 
>= 0.00025 moles of NaOH 
> 
>Therefore, the equivalent to 0.00025 moles of OA have been neutralised 
> 
>mass = moles x molecular weight (molecular weight of OA is 282.52 Daltons) 
>mass of OA in 10ml sample = 0.00025 x 282.52 
>  = 0.07063 
> 
>= 0.7063g per 100ml of oil 
> 
>rounding to 2 decimal places, %FFA = 0.71 
> 
>Put simply... 
>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.07063 
> 
>- 
> 
>Since most homebrewers use 1 ml of oil in 10 ml of isopropanol, that would be: 
>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.7063 
> 
>I guess blue/green Universal Indicator solution is the same as 
>magenta phenolphthalein, no? 
> 
>Thanks! 
> 
>Best 
> 
>Keith 


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Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[Keith Addison]

>Found this email in my list of unopened and I am curious...
>
>For those of us who use KOH...  How would this formula translate...

The same way as usual. What's the difficulty?

Everybody uses KOH, or they should, but titration levels are usually 
given for NaOH. A good reason for that is that NaOH is always the 
same concentration, 99%+, and KOH varies.

Are you assuming that the Biofuel Systems calculation is correct? I 
don't know if it's correct or not.

Keith


>Shawn
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 6:01:34 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
>Subject: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil
>
>Hi all
>
>I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer
>titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA.
>
>This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK
><http://www.biofuelsystems.com/>. Can anyone confirm whether it's
>correct or not?
>
>
>
>How to determine percentage free fatty acid (%FFA) of vegetable oil /
>used cooking oil
>
>Add 10ml of oil to 100ml of isopropyl alchohol (propan-2-ol)
>
>Mix thoroughly until oil dissolves. Add a few drops of Universal
>Indicator solution (UI)
>
>Measure how much 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution (1g NaOH / 1 litre
>water) is required to neutralise the oil solution - ie. raise pH to 8
>/ turn UI blue/green
>
>While continually stirring this mixture, add the NaOH solution drop
>by drop until the mixture turns and remains green / blue. Note the
>number of millilitres (ml) of NaOH solution required to do this.
>
>In stoichiometric terms, 1 mole NaOH will neutralise 1 mole of oleic acid (OA)
>
>Firstly, determine how many moles of NaOH have been used·
>
>Moles = molarity (mol/l) x volume (l) = [ molarity x volume (ml) ÷ 1000 ]
>
>Example
>If 10ml of NaOH solution was used
>
>Moles of NaOH = (molarity of solution x volume in ml) ÷ 1000
>
>= (0.025 x 10) ÷ 1000
>
>= 0.00025 moles of NaOH
>
>Therefore, the equivalent to 0.00025 moles of OA have been neutralised
>
>mass = moles x molecular weight (molecular weight of OA is 282.52 Daltons)
>mass of OA in 10ml sample = 0.00025 x 282.52
>  = 0.07063
>
>= 0.7063g per 100ml of oil
>
>rounding to 2 decimal places, %FFA = 0.71
>
>Put simply...
>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.07063
>
>-
>
>Since most homebrewers use 1 ml of oil in 10 ml of isopropanol, that would be:
>%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.7063
>
>I guess blue/green Universal Indicator solution is the same as
>magenta phenolphthalein, no?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Best
>
>Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[sj_patrick]

Found this email in my list of unopened and I am curious... 



For those of us who use KOH...  How would this formula translate... 



Shawn 
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 6:01:34 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: [Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil 

Hi all 

I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer 
titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA. 

This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK 
<http://www.biofuelsystems.com/>. Can anyone confirm whether it's 
correct or not? 

 

How to determine percentage free fatty acid (%FFA) of vegetable oil / 
used cooking oil 

Add 10ml of oil to 100ml of isopropyl alchohol (propan-2-ol) 

Mix thoroughly until oil dissolves. Add a few drops of Universal 
Indicator solution (UI) 

Measure how much 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution (1g NaOH / 1 litre 
water) is required to neutralise the oil solution - ie. raise pH to 8 
/ turn UI blue/green 

While continually stirring this mixture, add the NaOH solution drop 
by drop until the mixture turns and remains green / blue. Note the 
number of millilitres (ml) of NaOH solution required to do this. 

In stoichiometric terms, 1 mole NaOH will neutralise 1 mole of oleic acid (OA) 
  
Firstly, determine how many moles of NaOH have been usedŠ 
  
Moles = molarity (mol/l) x volume (l) = [ molarity x volume (ml) ÷ 1000 ] 
  
Example 
If 10ml of NaOH solution was used 

Moles of NaOH = (molarity of solution x volume in ml) ÷ 1000 

= (0.025 x 10) ÷ 1000 

= 0.00025 moles of NaOH 
  
Therefore, the equivalent to 0.00025 moles of OA have been neutralised 

mass = moles x molecular weight (molecular weight of OA is 282.52 Daltons) 
mass of OA in 10ml sample = 0.00025 x 282.52 
 = 0.07063 

= 0.7063g per 100ml of oil 
  
rounding to 2 decimal places, %FFA = 0.71 
  
Put simply... 
%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.07063 
  
- 

Since most homebrewers use 1 ml of oil in 10 ml of isopropanol, that would be: 
%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.7063 

I guess blue/green Universal Indicator solution is the same as 
magenta phenolphthalein, no? 

Thanks! 

Best 

Keith 


  

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[Biofuel] %FFA of vegetable oil

[Keith Addison]

Hi all

I've seen several conflicting ratios for converting homebrewer 
titration results of # ml 0.1% NaOH solution to % FFA.

This below is from Biofuel Systems in the UK 
. Can anyone confirm whether it's 
correct or not?



How to determine percentage free fatty acid (%FFA) of vegetable oil / 
used cooking oil

Add 10ml of oil to 100ml of isopropyl alchohol (propan-2-ol)

Mix thoroughly until oil dissolves. Add a few drops of Universal 
Indicator solution (UI)

Measure how much 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution (1g NaOH / 1 litre 
water) is required to neutralise the oil solution - ie. raise pH to 8 
/ turn UI blue/green

While continually stirring this mixture, add the NaOH solution drop 
by drop until the mixture turns and remains green / blue. Note the 
number of millilitres (ml) of NaOH solution required to do this.

In stoichiometric terms, 1 mole NaOH will neutralise 1 mole of oleic acid (OA)
 
Firstly, determine how many moles of NaOH have been usedŠ
 
Moles = molarity (mol/l) x volume (l) = [ molarity x volume (ml) ÷ 1000 ]
 
Example
If 10ml of NaOH solution was used

Moles of NaOH = (molarity of solution x volume in ml) ÷ 1000

= (0.025 x 10) ÷ 1000

= 0.00025 moles of NaOH
 
Therefore, the equivalent to 0.00025 moles of OA have been neutralised

mass = moles x molecular weight (molecular weight of OA is 282.52 Daltons)
mass of OA in 10ml sample = 0.00025 x 282.52
 = 0.07063

= 0.7063g per 100ml of oil
 
rounding to 2 decimal places, %FFA = 0.71
 
Put simply...
%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.07063
 
-

Since most homebrewers use 1 ml of oil in 10 ml of isopropanol, that would be:
%FFA = number ml 0.025M NaOH solution used x 0.7063

I guess blue/green Universal Indicator solution is the same as 
magenta phenolphthalein, no?

Thanks!

Best

Keith


 

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Re: [Biofuel] FFA decolorization

[Doug Younker]

Whew!  For a moment there I though the Future Farmers of America 
http://ffa.org/ lost their trademark colors. :)
Doug, N0LKK
Kansas USA

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[Biofuel] FFA Dark bio

[Rumen Slavov]

Hi All,
I apologize to you guys,it is my mistake,the stuff is
not any oil,but residues from refining oils in the
process called degumming,where the oils are treated
with water solution of lye and the resulting soaps are
treated with acid to recover the FFA`s.Generally it is
FFA with some oil in and a lot of lipids and any
organic matter diluted in the source oil.But as far as
I am sure that FFA`s are good stuff to make BD in a
simple esterification process with a proper technology
I am doing my best to put it back in the nature,where
it came from.What really bothers me is that when we
treat the glyc from the bottom of the reactors,the
recovered FFA is dark colored!So I am going to
experiment around:I will produce soap from a virgin
refined oil and treat it with acid to produce a pure
FFA to see if it is also dark.Wish me luck!
By the way,we have offers for high acidic oils from
Brazil,no idea about the origin,maybe refining
residues too?
Regards
Ross


   

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Re: [Biofuel] FFA decolorization

[José María Montenegro]

If the coloured particles (maybe with so high percent of FFA, this oil has
been used for many cicles of heating or a strong treatment, and probably it
has a high decomposition ratio) are quite small, bentonite has not capacity
to recover from the media.  The carbon is better for this purposes.

Best


2007/9/27, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hi Ross
>
> >Hi all,
> >Keith,the quality is not a question,according to my
> >NIR the BD is 99.2% esters - the foolproof method -
> >acid stage and 2 alkaline stages with glycerin removal
> >between ,
>
> Good going!
>
> Then it really seems a pity to bother about the colour.
>
> By the way, where do you get the 60% FFA oil from, if you don't mind
> my asking? What's it been used for to have so much FFA?
>
> >but I am supplying a close circle of friends
> >with fuel and the people asking me "What is that black
> >sh.t you are producing?"
>
> :-) Friends should be more friendly.
>
> Maybe you need a suitable slogan or a brandname or something, like
> black is beautiful - but, strange to tell, in the English language
> "black" usually means trouble, it's white that means all the good
> things, now ain't that a surprise (not!). I mean they don't make
> black Kleenex. (Or do they?)
>
> Anyway you'd need it in Bulgarian, maybe it's not such a racist
> language as English.
>
> >Thanks,Mr Montenegro,the activated carbon is my last
> >mean,I somehow kept the hope that I solve the problem
> >with some bleaching agent
>
> A bleach might cause pH problems though. The carbon should work,
> though I'm surprised the bentonite didn't.
>
> All best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >since boiling the BD sounds
> >no good to me/polymerization!/ and filtering is OK
> >with 5 micron in the end of the line.
> >Ross
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] FFA decolorization

[Keith Addison]

Hi Ross

>Hi all,
>Keith,the quality is not a question,according to my
>NIR the BD is 99.2% esters - the foolproof method -
>acid stage and 2 alkaline stages with glycerin removal
>between ,

Good going!

Then it really seems a pity to bother about the colour.

By the way, where do you get the 60% FFA oil from, if you don't mind 
my asking? What's it been used for to have so much FFA?

>but I am supplying a close circle of friends
>with fuel and the people asking me "What is that black
>sh.t you are producing?"

:-) Friends should be more friendly.

Maybe you need a suitable slogan or a brandname or something, like 
black is beautiful - but, strange to tell, in the English language 
"black" usually means trouble, it's white that means all the good 
things, now ain't that a surprise (not!). I mean they don't make 
black Kleenex. (Or do they?)

Anyway you'd need it in Bulgarian, maybe it's not such a racist 
language as English.

>Thanks,Mr Montenegro,the activated carbon is my last
>mean,I somehow kept the hope that I solve the problem
>with some bleaching agent

A bleach might cause pH problems though. The carbon should work, 
though I'm surprised the bentonite didn't.

All best

Keith


>since boiling the BD sounds
>no good to me/polymerization!/ and filtering is OK
>with 5 micron in the end of the line.
>Ross


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[Biofuel] FFA decolorization

[Rumen Slavov]

Hi all,
Keith,the quality is not a question,according to my
NIR the BD is 99.2% esters - the foolproof method -
acid stage and 2 alkaline stages with glycerin removal
between ,but I am supplying a close circle of friends
with fuel and the people asking me "What is that black
sh.t you are producing?"
Thanks,Mr Montenegro,the activated carbon is my last
mean,I somehow kept the hope that I solve the problem
with some bleaching agent since boiling the BD sounds
no good to me/polymerization!/ and filtering is OK
with 5 micron in the end of the line.
Ross 


   

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Re: [Biofuel] FFA decolorization

[José María Montenegro]

A little bit of coloured sustances, can make a very high coloured solution,
so if the reaction goes correctly, it must not be a problem.  Try to bleach
it with activated charcoal, heating close to boiling point and adding then.
The problem is that you will need to filter it quite well to remove all the
particles before using.

All the best.


2007/9/26, Rumen Slavov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hi All,
> I have a lot of high acidic /~60%FFA/ oil and had no
> problem to esterify it, but the BD is the same dark
> color as the source FFA`s and I am desperately trying
> to bleach it without any success.I`v already tested
> bentonite - no result.Has anyone any idea how to
> lighten the BD?
> Ross
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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> the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
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Re: [Biofuel] FFA decolorization

[Keith Addison]

>Hi All,
>I have a lot of high acidic /~60%FFA/ oil and had no
>problem to esterify it, but the BD is the same dark
>color as the source FFA`s and I am desperately trying
>to bleach it without any success.I`v already tested
>bentonite - no result.Has anyone any idea how to
>lighten the BD?
> Ross

Hello Ross

As long as it passes the quality tests, why bother?

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality

Best

Keith


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[Biofuel] FFA decolorization

[Rumen Slavov]

Hi All,
I have a lot of high acidic /~60%FFA/ oil and had no
problem to esterify it, but the BD is the same dark
color as the source FFA`s and I am desperately trying
to bleach it without any success.I`v already tested
bentonite - no result.Has anyone any idea how to
lighten the BD?
 Ross 



   

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[Biofuel] ffa in biodiesel

[Logan Vilas]

After methanol recovery if acid was added it would split the soaps into ffa
and salts. Then washing should remove the salts and lower the acidity with
very little if any soap in the wash water. It might reduce washing to 1
cycle per a batch. And would be safer to dispose of because no soap just
salt and a slightly acidic ph.

 Would the ffa mixed with biodiesel be a problem?

I would imagine that since we burn ffa attached to methanol then ffa by
themselves should burn, and when mixed with biodiesel they should burn even
better.

Has anyone tried this or have any thoughts on it? I do acid/base method on
anything that titrates 3.0 or higher so my ffa level should be very low. 

Logan Vilas


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Re: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery

[Thomas Kelly]

Jan,
    Sorry I'm slow to respond. I've 
been away.
 
 Where is the mineral 
precipitate? 
 
 I've gotten inverted 
splits, and one's in which the mineral precip. did not want to settle, but I 
don't think you will get FFA and glycerine w/o a mineral precip (the third 
layer).
 
 Is it in a glass jar or 
something that allows you to see it clearly?
 
 I had some difficulty at 
first .. used too much acid  
but eventually started having good success. I find 
that allowing the mix to sit in the sun on a hot day greatly accelerates the 
process  >  good split.
 I don't process the FFA 
into BD. I hope to add it to the BD  I use to heat my house.
    Best of 
luck,
 
Tom
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jan Lieuwe 
  Bolding 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:56 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery
  
  Tom,
   
  I get an FFA layer and Glycerine layer.
   
   
  Jan Lieuwe Bolding 
  2006/8/7, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
  


Jan,
    Is one of the layers the 
mineral precipitate?
   
Tom

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jan Lieuwe Bolding 
  
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:50 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery
   
  I have tried to seperate the FFA and Glycerine in the way as Todd 
  Swearingen has described It.
   
  I only get two layers instead of three, can anyone explan this?
   
  When I want to recycle the FFA in the first step of my Two Stage Acid 
  Base proces do I have to add extra Methanol?
   
   
  With kind regards,
   
   
   
  Jan Lieuwe Bolding
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery

[Keith Addison]

>I kindly ask to Todd Swearingen and/or to Jan Lieuwe Bolding 
>described the process again as I can not find it in my files.
>I thank you in advnce for your kindness
>Very best for us
>Chic

Hi Chic

It's here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
Separating glycerine/FFAs

Best

Keith


>Jan Lieuwe Bolding wrote:
>
>>Tom,
>>
>>I get an FFA layer and Glycerine layer.
>>
>>
>>Jan Lieuwe Bolding
>>
>>
>>
>>2006/8/7, Thomas Kelly <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>Jan,
>>Is one of the layers the mineral precipitate?
>>   Tom
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Jan Lieuwe Bolding
>>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:50 PM
>>Subject: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery
>>
>>
>>
>>I have tried to seperate the FFA and Glycerine in the way as Todd 
>>Swearingen has described It.
>>
>>I only get two layers instead of three, can anyone explan this?
>>
>>When I want to recycle the FFA in the first step of my Two Stage 
>>Acid Base proces do I have to add extra Methanol?
>>
>>
>>With kind regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>Jan Lieuwe Bolding


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Re: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery

[FRANCISCO]

I kindly ask to Todd Swearingen and/or to Jan Lieuwe Bolding described
the process again as I can not find it in my files.
I thank you in advnce for your kindness
Very best for us
Chic

Jan Lieuwe Bolding wrote:

  Tom,
   
  I get an FFA layer and Glycerine layer.
   
   
  Jan Lieuwe Bolding
  
 
  2006/8/7, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
  


Jan,
    Is one of the layers the
mineral precipitate?
  
Tom

  -
Original Message - 
  From:
  Jan Lieuwe Bolding
  
  To:
  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   
  Sent:
Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:50 PM
  Subject:
[Biofuel] FFA Recovery
  
 
  I have tried to seperate the FFA and Glycerine in the way as
Todd Swearingen has described It.
   
  I only get two layers instead of three, can anyone explan
this?
   
  When I want to recycle the FFA in the first step of my Two
Stage Acid Base proces do I have to add extra Methanol?
   
   
  With kind regards,
   
   
   
  Jan Lieuwe Bolding
  
  
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Re: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery

[Jan Lieuwe Bolding]

Tom,
 
I get an FFA layer and Glycerine layer.
 
 
Jan Lieuwe Bolding 
2006/8/7, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:



Jan,
    Is one of the layers the mineral precipitate?
   Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Jan Lieuwe Bolding
 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:50 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery
 
I have tried to seperate the FFA and Glycerine in the way as Todd Swearingen has described It.
 
I only get two layers instead of three, can anyone explan this?
 
When I want to recycle the FFA in the first step of my Two Stage Acid Base proces do I have to add extra Methanol?
 
 
With kind regards,
 
 
 
Jan Lieuwe Bolding



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Re: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery

[Thomas Kelly]

Jan,
    Is one of the layers the mineral 
precipitate?
   
Tom

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jan Lieuwe 
  Bolding 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:50 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] FFA Recovery
  
  I have tried to seperate the FFA and Glycerine in the way as Todd 
  Swearingen has described It.
   
  I only get two layers instead of three, can anyone explan this?
   
  When I want to recycle the FFA in the first step of my Two Stage Acid 
  Base proces do I have to add extra Methanol?
   
   
  With kind regards,
   
   
   
  Jan Lieuwe Bolding
  
  

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[Biofuel] FFA Recovery

[Jan Lieuwe Bolding]

I have tried to seperate the FFA and Glycerine in the way as Todd Swearingen has described It.
 
I only get two layers instead of three, can anyone explan this?
 
When I want to recycle the FFA in the first step of my Two Stage Acid Base proces do I have to add extra Methanol?
 
 
With kind regards,
 
 
 
Jan Lieuwe Bolding
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Re: [Biofuel] FFA testing in the acid part of the Foolproof process

[Appal Energy]

Joe,

Think about what you're doing for a moment if you try any type of "wash
test" after the acid side of acid/base.

One, the entire point of acid/base is to convert the FFAs to esters. Mind
you I said FFAs. Which means you have to give some consideration of how they
came to be FFAs in the first place - degradation of glycerides. When you
think about it, a degraded tri-glyceride is going to leave you with a mono-
or di-glyceride. Both are enormously efficient emulsifiers. Adding water in
their presence and agitating is going to give you emulsion.

The most efficient method of "testing" the acid side for conversion is to
conduct the base side and see how much caustic is required in comparison to
the original titration. You could attempt to titrate the intermediate oil
layer from the acid side, but there would be some residual acidic ions in
the oil that would give you a slightly off reading. Most of any excess acid
becomes solvent in the glycerol that drops or the excess alcohol that
surfaces - but not all of it.

 Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] FFA testing in the acid part of the Foolproof process


>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your advise.  I read the referred to passages and the cautinary
notes on using ethanol too before I started.  We all learn in our own
> preferred ways.  Mine is to jump in at the level I anticipate being able
to handle.  I do this for education and fun.
>
> I would still like to know if there is a test for success in the first
part of the process to determine if FFA are being esterfied.  My shake test
> using the WVO makes a milkshake.  After the acid part of the process, if I
do the same test with the product, it seperates within 10 minutes to
> dishwater on the bottom and murkey oil on top.  Maybe the presence of some
slight acid content is inhibiting the froth from forming, and the FFA's are
> just as bad as they were to begin with.
>
> Just wondering if there is a way to test.
>
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Re: [Biofuel] FFA testing in the acid part of the Foolproof process

[Joe . Guthrie]

Thanks for your advise.  I read the referred to passages and the cautinary 
notes on using ethanol too before I started.  We all learn in our own
preferred ways.  Mine is to jump in at the level I anticipate being able to 
handle.  I do this for education and fun.

I would still like to know if there is a test for success in the first part of 
the process to determine if FFA are being esterfied.  My shake test
using the WVO makes a milkshake.  After the acid part of the process, if I do 
the same test with the product, it seperates within 10 minutes to
dishwater on the bottom and murkey oil on top.  Maybe the presence of some 
slight acid content is inhibiting the froth from forming, and the FFA's are
just as bad as they were to begin with.

Just wondering if there is a way to test.

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Re: [Biofuel] FFA testing in the acid part of the Foolproof process

[Keith Addison]

Hi All,

I have been fooling around with the Foolproof process and have a few 
questions/observations.


First, is this your first attempt to make biodiesel? You saw what it 
says at the top of that page?


"NOTE: The two-stage biodiesel processes are advanced methods, not 
for novices -- learn the basics thoroughly first. The single-stage 
base method is the place to start. Start here."


"Here" being here:
"Where do I start?"
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start

"Not for novices" is linked and takes you here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#whystart

Did you read that? If not you really should.


I do not get an emulsion when I add the alcohol to the
WVO.


Emulsion? You mean this?

"6. Mix for five minutes -- the mixture will become murky because of 
solvent change (methanol is a polar compound, oil is strongly 
non-polar; a suspension will form)."


Are you starting with WVO? It's best to start with SVO. You're giving 
yourself too many variables all at once, instead of starting at the 
beginning with the simplest process and adding new factors one at a 
time.


I am using store bought denatured alcohol which is quite dry by my 
tests, and seems to have 10 to 20% methanol in it.


Denatured alcohol will not work. It is mostly ethanol, and making 
ethyl esters is not easy, and also not for novices. See:


Ethyl esters -- making ethanol biodiesel
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester

Also it is not dry, it will have about 5% water in it, and the 
biodiesel process is sensitive to water, especially ethyl esters.


You need 99%+ methanol, and then start with a single-stage base 
reaction with SVO, virgin oil.


I have gotten plenty of soap in the final fuel even after a good 
separation of glycerin.


You're sure you got a separation of glycerine?


I know there is plenty of FFA in my starting oil.


How do you know?


Is there
a test to determine if the acid stage is working or how far along 
the esterification is.?  I did the shake with water test and the 
original oil

becomes a milkshake.


You shook the original oil? Or what your process produced?


The acid stage product separates quickly but is murky.


I don't think so.

Go back to the beginning Joe, don't take short-cuts.

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever

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[Biofuel] FFA testing in the acid part of the Foolproof process

[Joe . Guthrie]

Hi All,

I have been fooling around with the Foolproof process and have a few 
questions/observations. I do not get an emulsion when I add the alcohol to the
WVO.  I am using store bought denatured alcohol which is quite dry by my tests, 
and seems to have 10 to 20% methanol in it.

I have gotten plenty of soap in the final fuel even after a good separation of 
glycerin.  I know there is plenty of FFA in my starting oil.  Is there
a test to determine if the acid stage is working or how far along the 
esterification is.?  I did the shake with water test and the original oil
becomes a milkshake. The acid stage product separates quickly but is murky.

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[biofuel] FFA / Glycerin separation

[Pieter Koole]

Hi all,
Again I have had some troubles with my health, so I haven't been around for
a while.
But as we say in Holland "Weeds aren't killed".
I have done as written below and do not understand a thing of it.
Who can help ?

I took 800 liters of used oil, which is used for a day or two to bake fish
in at 180¡ C.
I titratet 4 ml so that brings me to 7.5 grams of NaOH per liter = 6 kg NaOH
The NaOH was dissolved completely in 96 kg methanol ( 120 liters ).
This was mixed using a strong pump with the oil during 1 hour, ( which I
boiled first to 120¡ C to make sure there whas no trace of water in the oil.
I filtered the hot oil and let it cool down to about 30¡ C).
I think I have made BD now. I usually make BD with different amounts of
NaOH, because I used to get the oil from somebody else.
Anyway, separation occured and the s.g. of the BD is 0,860 which is not too
bad, I would think.
Now I took 525 grams of the bottom layer ( I did not perform the whashing
process at all, so there cannot be any water ).
Then I mixed this with 34 ml phosphoric acid (75%).
After a short time separation occured :
A light sherry / goldish toplayer , a bit darker than sunflower oil, which
is, I guess 80% of the total lot.
A complete black middle layer, which is maybe 5% of the lot
A bottomlayer which has the color off coffee with milk, which is about 10%
of the lot.

This is not the result I expected.
I realize I have asked this before and at that time I did not manage to
seperate FFA and glycerin ( maybe I did, but not knowing what the glycerin
or the FFA whas ).

So, what did I produce and what can I do whith it ?


Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole



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- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Phenolphthalein


> >OK, here's the thing. I can get it in all it's wonderful forms, but
> >that doesn't help me as I don't know which one will work for
> >titration, so that is where the wonderfully helpful people here will
> >steer me right,please.
> >It comes as:
> >1)Reagent powder
> >2).5% alcohol solution
> >3)1% alcohol solution
> >The question is: which one?
> >I want to measure it up to the PH meter as I think that that may be
> >the weak link in my titration.
> >
> >Thoughts? Guidance? Ideas?
> >
> >Many thanks or TA! (as the Aussies/Brits say)
> >
> >Luc
>
> Previous message:
>
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "biobenz"
> > > The chem supply house I am dealing with offers the Phenolphthalein
> > > in a pre-mixed alcohol solution at 1%. Would this work as well or
> > > better than the do-it-yourself method ?
> >
> >Biobenz,
> >If you are unable to get 95% ethanol or don't want to go to the trouble
of
> >making up the phenolphthalein solution yourself, the premixed solution
would
> >be a great idea. It would also be neutralalised in manufacture. Would
indeed
> >work just as well as or better.
> >
> >Regards  Paul Gobert.
>
> 1% Phenolphthalein solution
> (1.0w/v%)
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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> 
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Re: [biofuel] FFA vs. ester

[Keith Addison]

Hello Leif

>Dear Group~
>
>I feel like I'm missing a critical piece of information regarding FFA
>and transesterification.
>
>Ideal vegetable oil is triglycerides.  Due to factors (like water
>contamination, exposure to excessive heat, or long storage times) the
>triglycerides can break into mono and di-glycerides, also known as free
>fatty acids and enemy of transesterification.

No, that's not right. FFAs form this way, not mono- and diglycerides. 
Well, they can, to an extent, but it doesn't interfere with the 
process, and FFAs do.

>We add a base catalyst to facilitate the cracking of the triglyceride.
>Aren't mono and di-glycerides (aka FFAs)

Not aka FFAs. FFAs are Free Fatty Acids - free of a glycerine molecule.

>formed when the triglyceride
>is cracked?  If so, why can't the FFA's bond with the added methyl
>alcohol to form methyl esters?

That would be esterification, not transesterification. Hence the 
acid-base process - esterification of the FFAs followed by 
transesterification of the glycerides.

>If FFAs are not formed when the base
>cracks the triglyceride what is formed?
>
>I think part of the answer to this question lies in the difference
>between FFAs and esters.   What am I missing here?

FFAs and esters are different. FFAs and mono- and diglycerides are 
also different, and I think that's what you're missing. It's 
explained here:

How the process works
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#howprocess

What are Free Fatty Acids?
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#wotffa

Best wishes

Keith



>~leif



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Re: [biofuel] FFA vs. ester

[Ken Provost]

on 3/15/04 6:34 AM, Leif Forer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
> 
> Ideal vegetable oil is triglycerides.
> Due to factorsthe triglycerides can break
> into mono and di-glycerides, also known as free
> fatty acids and enemy of transesterification.

First some basics -- alcohols (glycerol, methanol,
ethanol, etc.) can "condense" with organic acids
(acetic, oleic, lysergic, etc.). In the process,
a water molecule is released and an "ester" is formed
(ethyl lysergate, methyl oleate, etc.)

In the case of glycerol, three alcohol groups (OH)
are present in the one molecule, so this esterif-
ication can happen one, two, or three times.
As you know, a triester of glycerol with three
fatty acid molecules is called a triglyceride, and
is what we call a "vegetable oil" . If any fatty
acids are present in the oil that AREN't condensed
with a glycerol molecule, they're called
FREE fatty acids.


> 
> We add a base catalyst to facilitate the cracking
> of the triglyceride.


I really wish everyone would stop using that term
"cracking" for transesterification -- it really
conveys the wrong idea. It's a petroleum term
meaning to break a long carbon chain into shorter
chains, and it causes a lot of confusion.

What you do for biodiesel is break the ester links
between the glycerol and the fatty acids in the
original oil, and create a new ester link between
each separated fatty acid and a short alcohol like
methanol or ethanol. In other words, you break
(and re-esterify) a single molecule of, say,
glyceryl trioleate into a  molecule of glycerol
and three molecules of methyl oleate.



> Aren't mono and di-glycerides formed when the
> triglyceride is cracked?


They are formed when the triglyceride is attacked
by WATER, which also releases one of the fatty acid
tails as a free fatty acid.


> If so, why can't the FFA's bond with the added
> methyl alcohol to form methyl esters?


This reaction occurs in the presence of acid catalyst,
but not base catalyst. That's why a first step of
acid catalysis can be used to methylate any free fatty
acids prior to the usual base-catalyzed step.

I'm home sick today -- plenty 'o' time fer chem
questions. :-)



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[biofuel] FFA vs. ester

[Leif Forer]

Dear Group~

I feel like I'm missing a critical piece of information regarding FFA 
and transesterification.

Ideal vegetable oil is triglycerides.  Due to factors (like water 
contamination, exposure to excessive heat, or long storage times) the 
triglycerides can break into mono and di-glycerides, also known as free 
fatty acids and enemy of transesterification.

We add a base catalyst to facilitate the cracking of the triglyceride.  
Aren't mono and di-glycerides (aka FFAs) formed when the triglyceride 
is cracked?  If so, why can't the FFA's bond with the added methyl 
alcohol to form methyl esters?  If FFAs are not formed when the base 
cracks the triglyceride what is formed?

I think part of the answer to this question lies in the difference 
between FFAs and esters.   What am I missing here?

~leif




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Re: [biofuel] FFA

[mark schofield]

Hi

Yes I have followed the instructions by Aleks on
the acid-base technique. Before the base stage, I
form a solid precipitate in the oil.

Mark

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Re: [biofuel] FFA

[Keith Addison]

Hello Mark

>Hello Keith
>
>The WVO smell makes you gag. Just think I lived
>there for 2 years being none the wiser. I guess
>well what you dont know cant hurt - that much
>anyhow!

Ignorance is bliss? Ignorance is dangerous!

>The solid precipitate forms quite rapidly. It
>maybe glycerol, it can't be many other compounds
>in all honesty.

Girl Mark has said some interesting things about this.

>Regards
>
>Mark

You don't answer questions Mark. You said you'd "produced clean and 
clear bio-diesel", I asked if you'd used the acid-base process - did 
you? If so, what exactly did you do? Did you follow the instructions?

I also said this:

>>However, it's widely recommended that people gain experience with
>>single-stage methods first before trying the two-stage methods, and
>>IMO that's sound advice.

Previously I referred you to this:

>I think you'd be a lot better off starting here:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
>Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever

I don't know if you take much notice of what various people have been 
telling you here. Your information is very vague, it's hard to know 
quite what you're doing.

Keith


>>Hello Mark
>>
>> >Dear Keith
>> >
>> >I have now produced clean and clear bio-diesel
>> >from some of the most grim looking crude WVO.
>>
>>Well done! Using the acid-base process? (You don't eat at that 
>>place, do you?)
>>
>> >However a question - first acid stage (1.0cc 97%
>> >H2SO4) per litre of WVO produces a solid
>> >precipitate. What is it? Esterified FFA as a
>> >solid?
>> >
>> >Regards
>> >
>> >Mark
>>
>>No, precipitated glycerine can be though, and the first stage does
>>produce some:
>>
>>"The first-stage process is not transesterification, but pure and
>>simple ESTERIFICATION. Esterification is followed by
>>transesterification, but under acid conditions it's much slower than
>>under caustic conditions and it won't do a complete oil-to-methyl
>>ester conversion as the reaction is much more equilibrium-sensitive.
>>Without methanol recovery, the alcohol overdose required would make
>>the price of your fuel jump, and even with recovery it would still be
>>much more expensive. Hence the second base-stage."
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html
>>Foolproof biodiesel process: Journey to Forever
>>
>>However, it's widely recommended that people gain experience with
>>single-stage methods first before trying the two-stage methods, and
>>IMO that's sound advice.
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Keith


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Re: [biofuel] FFA

[mark schofield]

Hello Keith

The WVO smell makes you gag. Just think I lived
there for 2 years being none the wiser. I guess
well what you dont know cant hurt - that much
anyhow!

The solid precipitate forms quite rapidly. It
maybe glycerol, it can't be many other compounds
in all honesty.

Regards

Mark

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Re: [biofuel] FFA

[Keith Addison]

Hello Mark

>Dear Keith
>
>I have now produced clean and clear bio-diesel
>from some of the most grim looking crude WVO.

Well done! Using the acid-base process? (You don't eat at that place, do you?)

>However a question - first acid stage (1.0cc 97%
>H2SO4) per litre of WVO produces a solid
>precipitate. What is it? Esterified FFA as a
>solid?
>
>Regards
>
>Mark

No, precipitated glycerine can be though, and the first stage does 
produce some:

"The first-stage process is not transesterification, but pure and 
simple ESTERIFICATION. Esterification is followed by 
transesterification, but under acid conditions it's much slower than 
under caustic conditions and it won't do a complete oil-to-methyl 
ester conversion as the reaction is much more equilibrium-sensitive. 
Without methanol recovery, the alcohol overdose required would make 
the price of your fuel jump, and even with recovery it would still be 
much more expensive. Hence the second base-stage."
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html
Foolproof biodiesel process: Journey to Forever

However, it's widely recommended that people gain experience with 
single-stage methods first before trying the two-stage methods, and 
IMO that's sound advice.

Best

Keith


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Re: [biofuel] FFA

[mark schofield]

Dear Keith

I have now produced clean and clear bio-diesel
from some of the most grim looking crude WVO.
However a question - first acid stage (1.0cc 97%
H2SO4) per litre of WVO produces a solid
precipitate. What is it? Esterified FFA as a
solid?

Regards

Mark

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Re: [biofuel] ffa content and titration

[Keith Addison]

James Slayden wrote:

>I thought I remember seeing this posted on JTF.

There's some info on it here, though I'm not sure you can use it that way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html
How much methanol?

Berst

Keith


>On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Ken Provost wrote:
>
> > Mark writes:
> >
> > >
> > >Could somebody give me some info on how the results (in ml) of the
> > >crude titration that we do for biodiesel making correlate with ffa
> > >content (in percent).
> >
> > I depends on the molecular weight of the FFA, which of course depends
> > on the type of oil.  One gram of NaOH will neutralize about 7 g of oleic
> > acid, which would be a typical FFA for the oils we use. So if your oil
> > titrates at 1 ml using 0.1% NaOH solution, you have 7 g of oleic acid
> > per liter (say 920 g) of oil, or 0.77% FFA.
> >
> > If you had some rancid rapeseed oil, high in free erucic acid (higher
> > molecular weight), each ml of NaOH solution in your titration would
> > be 0.92% FFA. If coconut with free lauric acid (lower mol wt.), 1 ml
> > equals only 0.54% FFA.


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Re: [biofuel] ffa content and titration

[James Slayden]

I thought I remember seeing this posted on JTF. 

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Ken Provost wrote:

> Mark writes:
> 
> >
> >Could somebody give me some info on how the results (in ml) of the
> >crude titration that we do for biodiesel making correlate with ffa
> >content (in percent).
> 
> I depends on the molecular weight of the FFA, which of course depends
> on the type of oil.  One gram of NaOH will neutralize about 7 g of oleic
> acid, which would be a typical FFA for the oils we use. So if your oil
> titrates at 1 ml using 0.1% NaOH solution, you have 7 g of oleic acid
> per liter (say 920 g) of oil, or 0.77% FFA.
> 
> If you had some rancid rapeseed oil, high in free erucic acid (higher
> molecular weight), each ml of NaOH solution in your titration would
> be 0.92% FFA. If coconut with free lauric acid (lower mol wt.), 1 ml
> equals only 0.54% FFA.
> 
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Re: [biofuel] ffa content and titration

[Ken Provost]

Mark writes:

>
>Could somebody give me some info on how the results (in ml) of the
>crude titration that we do for biodiesel making correlate with ffa
>content (in percent).

I depends on the molecular weight of the FFA, which of course depends
on the type of oil.  One gram of NaOH will neutralize about 7 g of oleic
acid, which would be a typical FFA for the oils we use. So if your oil
titrates at 1 ml using 0.1% NaOH solution, you have 7 g of oleic acid
per liter (say 920 g) of oil, or 0.77% FFA.

If you had some rancid rapeseed oil, high in free erucic acid (higher
molecular weight), each ml of NaOH solution in your titration would
be 0.92% FFA. If coconut with free lauric acid (lower mol wt.), 1 ml
equals only 0.54% FFA.

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[biofuel] ffa content and titraion

[girl mark]

I was hanging around with the owner of the junk food plant that gives us 
WVO today, and he asked me how to go about setting up in-house ffa testing. 
Turns out that industrial food production facilities have to control for 
FFA in their fryer oil (by law), so he spends $50 per test to have ffa 
testing done 20 times a month by a lab or something like that. OUCH. I had 
previously told him about crude titration and of course he got really 
excited about saving themselves some money.

Could somebody give me some info on how the results (in ml) of the crude 
titration that we do for biodiesel making correlate with ffa content (in 
percent).

  Obviously in his case the labware would be a lot nicer than what I use.

By the way the regulations say that their oil has to be under .8% ffa I 
believe. When I do a (very crude) titration on the WVO I get from them, it 
tests to anywhere from 1 to 1.5 ml- and I'm doing this to oil that has sat 
and gotten old and nasty in drums on the guy's lot for a year and has all 
kinds of nasty problems, and I'm also using phenol red instead of 
phenolpthaleine or other indicators so there's some things that are 'off' 
in my own testing procedure, which is why I keep calling it crude. (I'm of 
course aware of what the proper way to do it is).
thanks,
Mark


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Re: [biofuel] FFA as contact herbicide

[Ken Provost]

Keith writes:

>
>Yes, it does [work]. I'm glad you find the same. What I haven't
>worked out yet is how quickly it biodegrades, so it's not phyto-
>toxic anymore. Shouldn't be very long, if the soil life's in good
>order.
>
>Crab grass is tough Let us know if it tolerates FFAs or the wilt
>proves mortal.


Will do, and I'll give it another dose.

>
>Are you doing oil from the mustard and safflower?


Indeed -- with my new Tanzanian rampress. So far I'm buying
seed and just experimenting, but eventually, if I can grow an
acre or two, it could get significant. Sure is nice to work with
0.4 titer oil -- I'm even using ethanol again :-).

>
>Ken, what is Ivory Liquid? A couple of drops emulsified 50/50
>FFA/water? That sounds very effective.

I didn't say it KEPT them emulsified!..They were starting to
separate a bit at the end. But it's a "phosphate-free biodegradable
mixture of anionic and non-ionic surfactants" (dishwashing deter-
gent ;-)).

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Re: [biofuel] FFA as contact herbicide

[Keith Addison]

>I finally got around to trying out my extracted FFA (aka "acidulated
>soapstock") as an herbicide. I've got a couple raised beds, one with
>mustard about to harvest and the other growing a cover crop of win-
>ter rye and fava beans, to be safflower in the Spring. The dandelions
>and crabgrass are encroaching seriously around the edges. I mixed up
>about a gallon of 50/50 FFA/water, with a couple drops of Ivory
>Liquid to make an emulsion, and poured it around the edges of both
>beds.
>
>Sure enough, within 24 hours the dandelions were all slimy black
>and kind of "dissolving" where the FFA touched them. The crabgrass
>was also wilted, but seemed a bit more resistant than the broadleaf
>weeds. I probably could have used less FFA  in the mix if I was just
>going after dandelions, and of course one of those pressure cans
>with the hose and sprayer would apply it a lot more efficiently--
>But it works!  -K

Yes, it does. I'm glad you find the same. What I haven't worked out 
yet is how quickly it biodegrades, so it's not phytotoxic anymore. 
Shouldn't be very long, if the soil life's in good order.

Crab grass is tough. Comes from the same place as me. :-) It 
"tolerates aluminum, drought, grazing, heavy soil, insects, low pH, 
poor soil, salt, sand, shade, slope, trampling, ultraviolet, weeds, 
and wind." Tougher than me - I don't tolerate being grazed and 
trampled very well. Let us know if it tolerates FFAs or the wilt 
proves mortal.

Are you doing oil from the mustard and safflower?
 
Ken, what is Ivory Liquid? A couple of drops emulsified 50/50 
FFA/water? That sounds very effective.

Best

Keith


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[biofuel] FFA as contact herbicide

[Ken Provost]

I finally got around to trying out my extracted FFA (aka "acidulated
soapstock") as an herbicide. I've got a couple raised beds, one with
mustard about to harvest and the other growing a cover crop of win-
ter rye and fava beans, to be safflower in the Spring. The dandelions
and crabgrass are encroaching seriously around the edges. I mixed up
about a gallon of 50/50 FFA/water, with a couple drops of Ivory
Liquid to make an emulsion, and poured it around the edges of both
beds.

Sure enough, within 24 hours the dandelions were all slimy black
and kind of "dissolving" where the FFA touched them. The crabgrass
was also wilted, but seemed a bit more resistant than the broadleaf
weeds. I probably could have used less FFA  in the mix if I was just
going after dandelions, and of course one of those pressure cans
with the hose and sprayer would apply it a lot more efficiently--
But it works!  -K

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Re: [biofuel] FFA

[William Clark]

Ken- Thanks for the explanation.. I thought I had a good source for fatty
acids but now I'm not so sure. Thanks again.

Bill C.

- Original Message -
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] FFA


> Bill Clark writes:
>
> >Keith & others- I am a bit fuzzy on what happens to FFA in
> >the production of biodiesel. It seems to me that FFA are
> >undesirable in your feedstock. Please explain what happens
> >to the FFA. Is this converted to methyl ester or is there another
> >reaction? Do fatty acids have another use?
>
>
> In a typical base-catalyzed reaction, the FFA reacts with the
> sodium or potassium hydroxide to form soap and water. Some
> of the more exotic basic catalysts (triazabicyclodecene is one)
> can work without making soaps, but I can't afford them. As you
> say, this soap (and the water) are undesirable, since they can
> make emulsions with the biodiesel and reduce or complicate the
> yield.
>
> Acid-catalyzed (and lipase-catalyzed) reactions will produce
> esters (biodiesel) from FFA as well as (or better than) from oil.
>
>
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>


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Re: [biofuel] FFA

[Ken Provost]

Bill Clark writes:

>Keith & others- I am a bit fuzzy on what happens to FFA in
>the production of biodiesel. It seems to me that FFA are
>undesirable in your feedstock. Please explain what happens
>to the FFA. Is this converted to methyl ester or is there another
>reaction? Do fatty acids have another use?


In a typical base-catalyzed reaction, the FFA reacts with the
sodium or potassium hydroxide to form soap and water. Some
of the more exotic basic catalysts (triazabicyclodecene is one)
can work without making soaps, but I can't afford them. As you
say, this soap (and the water) are undesirable, since they can
make emulsions with the biodiesel and reduce or complicate the
yield.

Acid-catalyzed (and lipase-catalyzed) reactions will produce
esters (biodiesel) from FFA as well as (or better than) from oil.

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[biofuel] FFA

[William Clark]

Keith & others- I am a bit fuzzy on what happens to FFA in the production of 
biodiesel. It seems to me that FFA are udesirable in your feedstock. Please 
explain what happens to the FFA. Is this converted to methyl ester or is there 
another reaction? Do fatty acids have another use?

Bill C.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] FFA@home-not a chance!

[aleksander . kac]

Keith Addison   

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@egroups.com   

rever.org>cc:   

  Subject: [biofuel] FFA

05.12.2000 20:47

Please respond to   

    biofuel 













FFA can probably be acid catalysed. I've not tried this, but the basic
recipe
has been looked at by an analytical chemist who thinks it should work.
Again : this is called the Fisher esterification process. Please don't try
this @ home if non-chemists. Sulph acid heats up nasty while diluting and
is the
cause for many_a_plastic_surgery. Fumes of that acid are highly corrosive
and toxic
(SO3).
Acid catalysis is a water tolerant process. Use 10% methanol mixed
with 2% to 3%
concentrated sulphuric acid (or double that of 50% acid). Mix with the oil
and
stir regularly for at least 24 hours.
That is time and material lost. In oreder to get any result at all, the
Methanol
overdose has to be 5 to 7 fold the stoichiometric value. That one is tryed
out.
And to finnish, washing is a real bitch.
Then leave to settle. Conversion rate is
often poor (like 50%), but it is using a material that otherwise can't be
made
into biodiesel. Ester should rise to the top of tank. It may work with less
nasty acids, but we have to begin somewhere. Acetic and citric may be too
weak.
Phosphoric may be OK.
Does not work with any other acids than H2SO4.


Cheers, Aleks





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[biofuel] FFA

[Keith Addison]

 From Dave Elliott (Dave UK):

Acid catalysis

FFA can probably be acid catalysed. I've not tried this, but the basic recipe
has been looked at by an analytical chemist who thinks it should work.

Acid catalysis is a water tolerant process. Use 10% methanol mixed 
with 2% to 3%
concentrated sulphuric acid (or double that of 50% acid). Mix with the oil and
stir regularly for at least 24 hours. Then leave to settle. Conversion rate is
often poor (like 50%), but it is using a material that otherwise can't be made
into biodiesel. Ester should rise to the top of tank. It may work with less
nasty acids, but we have to begin somewhere. Acetic and citric may be too weak.
Phosphoric may be OK.


Nice if someone gave it a try. An alternative to this:

Dealing with high levels of Free Fatty Acids (FFA): first stage 
alkaline reaction, second stage acid-based reaction -- "Cost 
Reduction in Bio-Diesel Production", B. Rice, A. Fršhlich and R. 
Leonard, Crops Research Centre, Oak Park, Carlow, Ireland.
http://www.teagasc.ie/research/reports/crops/4321/eopr-4321.htm


Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/

 

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