Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:39, you wrote: On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:09:34 -0800, you wrote: LINUX! virus free. As much as we need to bail on modern fuels we need to bail on micro$oft... Ken Well, I can agree with some of this anti-MS feeling, if only because I don't like to give all my business to a place that over-charges and sometimes hasn't delivered, and does other things I don't like. But: the only time I've lost all my data, since 13 years ago when I first bought a computer and wiped out a few times, was a couple of years ago when I decided to get Linux, tried to load it on a hard drive alongside windows, and messed up in a couple of stupid ways. One of the reasons I didn't have proper backup is that backing up in Windows, spanning several CD roms and so forth did not seem that easy. To this day, I have had to go to some lengths to install some decent backup option, well outside the MS default backup utilities. I got the bug to try Linux when I finally got an attempted virus infection perportedly from Islamic Jihad or some such, (about a 6-12 mos. I think before the stuff hit the fan). In any case, my point is that I agree with the general sentiment of trying to get off the MS merry-go-round and I do recommend Star Office for that, but for changing OS's, I'd counsel caution and at least a good backup. Linux people are enthusiastic and have a good OS to recommend (from what I hear) but are not likely to help a non-professional windows user fully appreciate all of the hazards and problems that can come up. Since used computers seem to be a robust and affordable option in my local paper, I'm thinking the next time I can just buy one of them, install an alternate OS, and then not have to mess with this concept of more than one OS on a hard drive unless it's a non-essential hard-drive. MM I agree totally. Do not try to install Linux beside M$ without help. The best idea is to start with a Klunker (Linux will even run on a 486 system, but with some restrictions on what will run. ie Gnome KDE desktops are too big, so an alternative windows manager like Ice or BlackBox is required) Network your systems together, linux will be able to access your M$ files. It has been said on other lists that once people start using Linux, they find they use M$ less less, till eventually they don't use it. (This took me 18 months) The best way to start with Linux is to take a computer to a Linux Installfest, which is where the local Linux group has a big install day to attract members. Most groups run these periodically. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
I'm glad to find some agreement on this, as it was obviously not a good experience for me (losing everything because I thought I'd take drastic measures to try to prevent losing everything). There are so many good softwares that have been tried and-or half tried. I used to be a geos enthusiast of sorts (now newdealinc.com last I looked) but they were too stupid to market it as a downloadable DOS and Windows Office Suite, which would have helped it cream MS Office, instead insisting on touting its OS potentialities to the exlusion of other stuff. Now it seems like it's been an irrelevancy for 10 years, but who knows, maybe they'll help revive old 486s or less. I mean, how much power does one need to store an address spreadsheet? But Linux doesn't seem to be going away, nor Apple. I'm just surprised that MS still seems to be getting such dollars for their Office Suite. What for? I understand the OS trap, but there are great office suites out there for nearly nothing. I agree totally. Do not try to install Linux beside M$ without help. The best idea is to start with a Klunker (Linux will even run on a 486 system, but with some restrictions on what will run. ie Gnome KDE desktops are too big, so an alternative windows manager like Ice or BlackBox is required) Network your systems together, linux will be able to access your M$ files. It has been said on other lists that once people start using Linux, they find they use M$ less less, till eventually they don't use it. (This took me 18 months) The best way to start with Linux is to take a computer to a Linux Installfest, which is where the local Linux group has a big install day to attract members. Most groups run these periodically. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
LINUX! virus free. As much as we need to bail on modern fuels we need to bail on micro$oft... Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:51 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a computer system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the virus to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both hackers and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a sufficient jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages. I am running windows 2000 with Norton virus protection and it works fine with me. I am using Eudora mail client and do not allow for any automatic execution. It is important to use a mail client that are supported by the anti virus software. Norton analyzes all incoming mails and the last years my system have been clean, when I do the weekly scan of my 2x20 Gb disks. I scan for viruses one night a week and it takes around 8 hours to do so. The Norton software is not expensive and Eudora has a free version alternative. I have a couple of other computers for use of others and had some problems on those. I also helped friends to set up security privately and for their companies. It is several times that I have fixed infected computers, that also had anti virus software. Some of this anti-virus software is not updated fast enough and some actually hangs the system. That is why I run a non mainstream mail client and Norton who I found have less problems than other virus software. I always tell people not to open any attachments unless they are that are not known to be OK, even if they have a good protected system. Curiosity is very dangerous. Hakan At 01:39 AM 12/8/2002 -0800, you wrote: On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:43:32 +0900, you wrote: Hi MM Thanks for this. We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's impossible to find out who he is from the information that's available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens all the time, I just happen to know of this one. A problem is that so many users know so little about using their machines and simply don't know about virus gear and how to keep it updated. That seems amazing but it's true. PS: I suppose going forward you could require new members to show evidence of non-use of one of the offending email clients (Outlook, Outlook Express, Netscape, whatever), by sending an email with header info that would indicate this. And-or you could post a link on the signup area to alternative email clients for Windows users. http://www.tucows.com/mail95_default.html Looking these over, though, there are several hazardous ones in there (possibly using the inbuilt address book). Mine isn't listed because its known as a free intergrated usenet reader. I guess maybe you could list Pegasus and agent.99 as two free email clients, if you didn't want to confuse people with a huge list. I don't know if Pegasus has an address book that is vulnerable. As I look at mine, unfortunately, the free version does not seem to support email, only usenet: http://www.forteinc.com/agent/features.php So, that is not an answer as to the zero-cost way to wean windows users from damaging email clients. Agent looks like it's $29.00 Anyway, I don't mean to suggest work for you, but if one is the moderator of a mail list and if this Outlook issue is still causing work, then maybe discouragement of using it would save work. Funny, but I heard on a retreat last year Gates had come back with the notion that security was going to be a big focus of the company. Guess they haven't quite solved it all yet. But this failure isn't as much of a mystery to me because I had the benefit of a conversation with a hacker 6 years ago about this, and he was quite clear that he doubted some of Windows Security problems *could* ever be solved, given its architecture. I've seldom seen him so tickled-pink, so content, when he was sitting there chuckling, foreseeing how MS would try to solve this or that and it just wouldn't do any good because putting that finger in the dike just wasn't going to stop the water from coming. For some reason, the contemplation of the possibility of this happening and MS's misery at that point just seemed to make him sort of quiet and content and satisfied. Maybe he thought, for some reason, they deserved a bit of misery? I don't know about WinXP because that's based on NT, not on DOS. I didn't upgrade to it because I didn't want to lose the functionality of some
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:09:34 -0800, you wrote: LINUX! virus free. As much as we need to bail on modern fuels we need to bail on micro$oft... Ken Well, I can agree with some of this anti-MS feeling, if only because I don't like to give all my business to a place that over-charges and sometimes hasn't delivered, and does other things I don't like. But: the only time I've lost all my data, since 13 years ago when I first bought a computer and wiped out a few times, was a couple of years ago when I decided to get Linux, tried to load it on a hard drive alongside windows, and messed up in a couple of stupid ways. One of the reasons I didn't have proper backup is that backing up in Windows, spanning several CD roms and so forth did not seem that easy. To this day, I have had to go to some lengths to install some decent backup option, well outside the MS default backup utilities. I got the bug to try Linux when I finally got an attempted virus infection perportedly from Islamic Jihad or some such, (about a 6-12 mos. I think before the stuff hit the fan). In any case, my point is that I agree with the general sentiment of trying to get off the MS merry-go-round and I do recommend Star Office for that, but for changing OS's, I'd counsel caution and at least a good backup. Linux people are enthusiastic and have a good OS to recommend (from what I hear) but are not likely to help a non-professional windows user fully appreciate all of the hazards and problems that can come up. Since used computers seem to be a robust and affordable option in my local paper, I'm thinking the next time I can just buy one of them, install an alternate OS, and then not have to mess with this concept of more than one OS on a hard drive unless it's a non-essential hard-drive. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
not virus free, but not as popular to write virus's for. Much more fun to dump on Microsoft. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo LINUX! virus free. As much as we need to bail on modern fuels we need to bail on micro$oft... Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:51 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a computer system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the virus to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both hackers and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a sufficient jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages. I am running windows 2000 with Norton virus protection and it works fine with me. I am using Eudora mail client and do not allow for any automatic execution. It is important to use a mail client that are supported by the anti virus software. Norton analyzes all incoming mails and the last years my system have been clean, when I do the weekly scan of my 2x20 Gb disks. I scan for viruses one night a week and it takes around 8 hours to do so. The Norton software is not expensive and Eudora has a free version alternative. I have a couple of other computers for use of others and had some problems on those. I also helped friends to set up security privately and for their companies. It is several times that I have fixed infected computers, that also had anti virus software. Some of this anti-virus software is not updated fast enough and some actually hangs the system. That is why I run a non mainstream mail client and Norton who I found have less problems than other virus software. I always tell people not to open any attachments unless they are that are not known to be OK, even if they have a good protected system. Curiosity is very dangerous. Hakan At 01:39 AM 12/8/2002 -0800, you wrote: On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:43:32 +0900, you wrote: Hi MM Thanks for this. We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's impossible to find out who he is from the information that's available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens all the time, I just happen to know of this one. A problem is that so many users know so little about using their machines and simply don't know about virus gear and how to keep it updated. That seems amazing but it's true. PS: I suppose going forward you could require new members to show evidence of non-use of one of the offending email clients (Outlook, Outlook Express, Netscape, whatever), by sending an email with header info that would indicate this. And-or you could post a link on the signup area to alternative email clients for Windows users. http://www.tucows.com/mail95_default.html Looking these over, though, there are several hazardous ones in there (possibly using the inbuilt address book). Mine isn't listed because its known as a free intergrated usenet reader. I guess maybe you could list Pegasus and agent.99 as two free email clients, if you didn't want to confuse people with a huge list. I don't know if Pegasus has an address book that is vulnerable. As I look at mine, unfortunately, the free version does not seem to support email, only usenet: http://www.forteinc.com/agent/features.php So, that is not an answer as to the zero-cost way to wean windows users from damaging email clients. Agent looks like it's $29.00 Anyway, I don't mean to suggest work for you, but if one is the moderator of a mail list and if this Outlook issue is still causing work, then maybe discouragement of using it would save work. Funny, but I heard on a retreat last year Gates had come back with the notion that security was going to be a big focus of the company. Guess they haven't quite solved it all yet. But this failure isn't as much of a mystery to me because I had the benefit of a conversation with a hacker 6 years ago about this, and he was quite clear that he doubted some of Windows Security problems *could* ever be solved, given its architecture. I've seldom seen him so tickled-pink, so content, when he was sitting there chuckling
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
This is criminal and not a practical joke. I could track them down to ISP, connection port and exact time. The ISP could clearly identify the connection and customer. I reported this vandalism to the ISP and police. To fix it, it took me 3 hours, so I forwarded a claim of $225. I also took another bulletin board, so this supplier lost business. It's a bit of a twist in topic, but a few years ago when this was a more front-page story here in the States, somehow I recall the topic coming up of the FBI's efforts against cybercrimes, and I believe they had some sort of dollar-threshold which would allow them to bother to follow up, if you reported to them that damage had been done. Disgusting, I think, to think that your rights can be protected only if and when you can tell them that the damage to your life exceeds x amount of money. What the hell are we paying taxes for? If there are more such crimes than they have resources to investigate, then they ought be granted more resources, IMO. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a computer system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the virus to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both hackers and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a sufficient jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages. I am running windows 2000 with Norton virus protection and it works fine with me. I am using Eudora mail client and do not allow for any automatic execution. It is important to use a mail client that are supported by the anti virus software. Norton analyzes all incoming mails and the last years my system have been clean, when I do the weekly scan of my 2x20 Gb disks. I scan for viruses one night a week and it takes around 8 hours to do so. The Norton software is not expensive and Eudora has a free version alternative. I have a couple of other computers for use of others and had some problems on those. I also helped friends to set up security privately and for their companies. It is several times that I have fixed infected computers, that also had anti virus software. Some of this anti-virus software is not updated fast enough and some actually hangs the system. That is why I run a non mainstream mail client and Norton who I found have less problems than other virus software. I always tell people not to open any attachments unless they are that are not known to be OK, even if they have a good protected system. Curiosity is very dangerous. Hakan At 01:39 AM 12/8/2002 -0800, you wrote: On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:43:32 +0900, you wrote: Hi MM Thanks for this. We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's impossible to find out who he is from the information that's available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens all the time, I just happen to know of this one. A problem is that so many users know so little about using their machines and simply don't know about virus gear and how to keep it updated. That seems amazing but it's true. PS: I suppose going forward you could require new members to show evidence of non-use of one of the offending email clients (Outlook, Outlook Express, Netscape, whatever), by sending an email with header info that would indicate this. And-or you could post a link on the signup area to alternative email clients for Windows users. http://www.tucows.com/mail95_default.html Looking these over, though, there are several hazardous ones in there (possibly using the inbuilt address book). Mine isn't listed because its known as a free intergrated usenet reader. I guess maybe you could list Pegasus and agent.99 as two free email clients, if you didn't want to confuse people with a huge list. I don't know if Pegasus has an address book that is vulnerable. As I look at mine, unfortunately, the free version does not seem to support email, only usenet: http://www.forteinc.com/agent/features.php So, that is not an answer as to the zero-cost way to wean windows users from damaging email clients. Agent looks like it's $29.00 Anyway, I don't mean to suggest work for you, but if one is the moderator of a mail list and if this Outlook issue is still causing work, then maybe discouragement of using it would save work. Funny, but I heard on a retreat last year Gates had come back with the notion that security was going to be a big focus of the company. Guess they haven't quite solved it all yet. But this failure isn't as much of a mystery to me because I had the benefit of a conversation with a hacker 6 years ago about this, and he was quite clear that he doubted some of Windows Security problems *could* ever be solved, given its architecture. I've seldom seen him so tickled-pink, so content, when he was sitting there chuckling, foreseeing how MS would try to solve this or that and it just wouldn't do any good because putting that finger in the dike just wasn't going to stop the water from coming. For some reason, the contemplation of the possibility of this happening and MS's misery at that point just seemed to make him sort of quiet and content and satisfied. Maybe he thought, for some reason, they deserved a bit of misery? I don't know about WinXP because that's based on NT, not on DOS. I didn't upgrade to it because I didn't want to lose the functionality of some apps. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:51, you wrote: Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a computer system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the virus to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both hackers and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a sufficient jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages. Hackers are not necessarily criminals. If companies like M$ create woeful S/w, you are silly enough to buy it who is the fool?? If we bought cars like we buy s/w think of the reliability! We would all be leaving cars where they broke down, catching Public Transport. My suggestion is to write to your local Politician, ask for the guarantees on s/w to be enforced. Then upgrades that M$ charge for would be free, M$ might get real about supplying a decent product. Until this happens, vote with your feet... Linux is worth the effort of learning, is free of licencing costs, dosen't crash or have problems with Virii, etc etc. There are Windows emulators that run under Linux that will run the few programmes that are not yet available in Linux ( don't buy Canon product, as it is one of the few products that refuse to support Linux) But usually you can find a Linux programme to perform most functions, at 0 cost. regards Doug (A linux user for 3 years that hates having to use the steam-driven programs on the M$ machines at work! eg how many windows can you open in a browser before the system crashes under M$? - I had 30 windows open at one time, it did slow the computer, but it did not crash! - its great being able to search on google, say 'new window' open for all interesting pages, then by the time you have the next google page loading, the first few pages are loaded, so you can view them- try that with Mr Gates' product!) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
If you are new to hacking, you probably assume that computer criminals are
hackers. Heck, that's what the news media tells us.
However, calling criminals hackers makes real hackers angry. Eric
Raymond, author of The New Hacker's Dictionary, argues, Real hackers call
these people 'crackers' and want nothing to do with them... being able to
break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hot
wire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists
and writers have been fooled into using the word 'hacker' to describe
crackers; this irritates real hackers no end...
The basic difference is, hackers build things; crackers break them.
The Hacker Jargon File (Version 2.9.6, 16 August 1991), adds that Hacking
might be characterized as `an appropriate application of ingenuity'.
Whether the result is a quick-and-dirty patchwork job or a carefully crafted
work of art, you have to admire the cleverness that went into it. An
important secondary meaning of {hack} is `a creative practical joke'.
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 5:51 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a computer
system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the
virus
to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both hackers
and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a
sufficient
jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages.
I am running windows 2000 with Norton virus protection and it works fine
with me. I am using Eudora mail client and do not allow for any automatic
execution. It is important to use a mail client that are supported by the
anti virus software. Norton analyzes all incoming mails and the last years
my system have been clean, when I do the weekly scan of my 2x20 Gb disks.
I
scan for viruses one night a week and it takes around 8 hours to do so.
The
Norton software is not expensive and Eudora has a free version
alternative.
I have a couple of other computers for use of others and had some problems
on those. I also helped friends to set up security privately and for their
companies. It is several times that I have fixed infected computers, that
also had anti virus software. Some of this anti-virus software is not
updated fast enough and some actually hangs the system. That is why I run
a
non mainstream mail client and Norton who I found have less problems than
other virus software.
I always tell people not to open any attachments unless they are that are
not known to be OK, even if they have a good protected system. Curiosity
is
very dangerous.
Hakan
At 01:39 AM 12/8/2002 -0800, you wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:43:32 +0900, you wrote:
Hi MM
Thanks for this.
We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus
that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending
itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's
impossible to find out who he is from the information that's
available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of
them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens all the time, I
just happen to know of this one. A problem is that so many users know
so little about using their machines and simply don't know about
virus gear and how to keep it updated. That seems amazing but it's
true.
PS:
I suppose going forward you could require new members to show evidence
of non-use of one of the offending email clients (Outlook, Outlook
Express, Netscape, whatever), by sending an email with header info
that would indicate this. And-or you could post a link on the signup
area to alternative email clients for Windows users.
http://www.tucows.com/mail95_default.html
Looking these over, though, there are several hazardous ones in
there (possibly using the inbuilt address book). Mine isn't listed
because its known as a free intergrated usenet reader. I guess maybe
you could list Pegasus and agent.99 as two free email clients, if you
didn't want to confuse people with a huge list. I don't know if
Pegasus has an address book that is vulnerable. As I look at mine,
unfortunately, the free version does not seem to support email, only
usenet:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/features.php
So, that is not an answer as to the zero-cost way to wean windows
users from damaging email clients. Agent looks like it's $29.00
Anyway, I don't mean to suggest work for you, but if one is the
moderator of a mail list and if this Outlook issue is still causing
work, then maybe discouragement of using it would save work.
Funny, but I heard
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
I learned programming 1965 on IBM 1130 and have used computers ever since.
1969 I came into professional computing as responsible for starting
timesharing business in Sweden on a 360/50, at that time the 3rd largest
computer in Sweden. After that I have also worked with CAD/CAM and networking.
Breaking in to you house, car or computer without permission, is a crime
and will always be a crime. If I break in to your house and use your your
living room floor as toilet, should I be regarded as a genius and my
excrements as a creative practical joke? Give me a break What kind of
world do we live in, when people suggest that we should admire buglers, car
thiefs, hackers, crackers and whatever you like to call the criminals.
Protection against hackers or virus makers is a security against criminals,
in the same way as the lock on your house. If you have a bad or good lock
does not make the bugler less or more criminal. Even if you do not have a
lock at all, the bugler is a criminal that performs a criminal act.
I can agree that some programmers have to test the security, with
permission and in a controlled way. They same way as locks are tested. If
you have people who wants to test the security on their own computers or
others with permission, it is a perfectly legal exercise. It does not need
a programmer that is smarter than other programmers, who works with
creating applications.
Hakan
At 08:40 AM 12/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
If you are new to hacking, you probably assume that computer criminals are
hackers. Heck, that's what the news media tells us.
However, calling criminals hackers makes real hackers angry. Eric
Raymond, author of The New Hacker's Dictionary, argues, Real hackers call
these people 'crackers' and want nothing to do with them... being able to
break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hot
wire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists
and writers have been fooled into using the word 'hacker' to describe
crackers; this irritates real hackers no end...
The basic difference is, hackers build things; crackers break them.
The Hacker Jargon File (Version 2.9.6, 16 August 1991), adds that Hacking
might be characterized as `an appropriate application of ingenuity'.
Whether the result is a quick-and-dirty patchwork job or a carefully crafted
work of art, you have to admire the cleverness that went into it. An
important secondary meaning of {hack} is `a creative practical joke'.
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 5:51 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a computer
system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the
virus
to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both hackers
and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a
sufficient
jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages.
I am running windows 2000 with Norton virus protection and it works fine
with me. I am using Eudora mail client and do not allow for any automatic
execution. It is important to use a mail client that are supported by the
anti virus software. Norton analyzes all incoming mails and the last years
my system have been clean, when I do the weekly scan of my 2x20 Gb disks.
I
scan for viruses one night a week and it takes around 8 hours to do so.
The
Norton software is not expensive and Eudora has a free version
alternative.
I have a couple of other computers for use of others and had some problems
on those. I also helped friends to set up security privately and for their
companies. It is several times that I have fixed infected computers, that
also had anti virus software. Some of this anti-virus software is not
updated fast enough and some actually hangs the system. That is why I run
a
non mainstream mail client and Norton who I found have less problems than
other virus software.
I always tell people not to open any attachments unless they are that are
not known to be OK, even if they have a good protected system. Curiosity
is
very dangerous.
Hakan
At 01:39 AM 12/8/2002 -0800, you wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:43:32 +0900, you wrote:
Hi MM
Thanks for this.
We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus
that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending
itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's
impossible to find out who he is from the information that's
available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of
them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
it's a terms thing. someone breaking into a system that is not theirs is not
a hacker, that's a cracker. I hack my own systems to get them to do things
they don't normally do. that's a hacker. society has taken the worst of what
crackers due and attributed it incorrectly to hackers.
Steve Spence
Director of IT, MCSE, CNE
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
I learned programming 1965 on IBM 1130 and have used computers ever since.
1969 I came into professional computing as responsible for starting
timesharing business in Sweden on a 360/50, at that time the 3rd largest
computer in Sweden. After that I have also worked with CAD/CAM and
networking.
Breaking in to you house, car or computer without permission, is a crime
and will always be a crime. If I break in to your house and use your your
living room floor as toilet, should I be regarded as a genius and my
excrements as a creative practical joke? Give me a break What kind
of
world do we live in, when people suggest that we should admire buglers,
car
thiefs, hackers, crackers and whatever you like to call the criminals.
Protection against hackers or virus makers is a security against
criminals,
in the same way as the lock on your house. If you have a bad or good lock
does not make the bugler less or more criminal. Even if you do not have a
lock at all, the bugler is a criminal that performs a criminal act.
I can agree that some programmers have to test the security, with
permission and in a controlled way. They same way as locks are tested. If
you have people who wants to test the security on their own computers or
others with permission, it is a perfectly legal exercise. It does not need
a programmer that is smarter than other programmers, who works with
creating applications.
Hakan
At 08:40 AM 12/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
If you are new to hacking, you probably assume that computer criminals
are
hackers. Heck, that's what the news media tells us.
However, calling criminals hackers makes real hackers angry. Eric
Raymond, author of The New Hacker's Dictionary, argues, Real hackers
call
these people 'crackers' and want nothing to do with them... being able to
break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hot
wire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many
journalists
and writers have been fooled into using the word 'hacker' to describe
crackers; this irritates real hackers no end...
The basic difference is, hackers build things; crackers break them.
The Hacker Jargon File (Version 2.9.6, 16 August 1991), adds that
Hacking
might be characterized as `an appropriate application of ingenuity'.
Whether the result is a quick-and-dirty patchwork job or a carefully
crafted
work of art, you have to admire the cleverness that went into it. An
important secondary meaning of {hack} is `a creative practical joke'.
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 5:51 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by
Yahoo
Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a
computer
system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the
virus
to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both
hackers
and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a
sufficient
jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages.
I am running windows 2000 with Norton virus protection and it works
fine
with me. I am using Eudora mail client and do not allow for any
automatic
execution. It is important to use a mail client that are supported by
the
anti virus software. Norton analyzes all incoming mails and the last
years
my system have been clean, when I do the weekly scan of my 2x20 Gb
disks.
I
scan for viruses one night a week and it takes around 8 hours to do
so.
The
Norton software is not expensive and Eudora has a free version
alternative.
I have a couple of other computers for use of others and had some
problems
on those. I also helped friends to set up security privately and for
their
companies. It is several times that I have fixed infected computers,
that
also had anti virus software. Some of this anti-virus software is not
updated fast enough and some actually hangs the system. That is why I
run
a
non mainstream mail client and Norton who I found have less problems
than
other virus software
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
Well Steve,
The crackers as you call them are calling themselves hackers and the
last 8 years they have been identified as hackers. If you do what you are
doing, is it not enough if you are called system programmer. I now that
it is not unusual that criminals want to have some more honorable
identification. If hackers are not correct, talk to them, not me.
Hakan
At 12:49 PM 12/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
it's a terms thing. someone breaking into a system that is not theirs is not
a hacker, that's a cracker. I hack my own systems to get them to do things
they don't normally do. that's a hacker. society has taken the worst of what
crackers due and attributed it incorrectly to hackers.
Steve Spence
Director of IT, MCSE, CNE
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
I learned programming 1965 on IBM 1130 and have used computers ever since.
1969 I came into professional computing as responsible for starting
timesharing business in Sweden on a 360/50, at that time the 3rd largest
computer in Sweden. After that I have also worked with CAD/CAM and
networking.
Breaking in to you house, car or computer without permission, is a crime
and will always be a crime. If I break in to your house and use your your
living room floor as toilet, should I be regarded as a genius and my
excrements as a creative practical joke? Give me a break What kind
of
world do we live in, when people suggest that we should admire buglers,
car
thiefs, hackers, crackers and whatever you like to call the criminals.
Protection against hackers or virus makers is a security against
criminals,
in the same way as the lock on your house. If you have a bad or good lock
does not make the bugler less or more criminal. Even if you do not have a
lock at all, the bugler is a criminal that performs a criminal act.
I can agree that some programmers have to test the security, with
permission and in a controlled way. They same way as locks are tested. If
you have people who wants to test the security on their own computers or
others with permission, it is a perfectly legal exercise. It does not need
a programmer that is smarter than other programmers, who works with
creating applications.
Hakan
At 08:40 AM 12/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
If you are new to hacking, you probably assume that computer criminals
are
hackers. Heck, that's what the news media tells us.
However, calling criminals hackers makes real hackers angry. Eric
Raymond, author of The New Hacker's Dictionary, argues, Real hackers
call
these people 'crackers' and want nothing to do with them... being able to
break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hot
wire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many
journalists
and writers have been fooled into using the word 'hacker' to describe
crackers; this irritates real hackers no end...
The basic difference is, hackers build things; crackers break them.
The Hacker Jargon File (Version 2.9.6, 16 August 1991), adds that
Hacking
might be characterized as `an appropriate application of ingenuity'.
Whether the result is a quick-and-dirty patchwork job or a carefully
crafted
work of art, you have to admire the cleverness that went into it. An
important secondary meaning of {hack} is `a creative practical joke'.
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 5:51 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection was: WARNING! - enemy action by
Yahoo
Hackers are people who breaks the security and get access to a
computer
system. Most of them do not make destructive viruses but some use the
virus
to plant Trojans. Virus developers are destructive criminals. Both
hackers
and virus producers should be pursued legally and not only get a
sufficient
jail term, also be made financially responsible for damages.
I am running windows 2000 with Norton virus protection and it works
fine
with me. I am using Eudora mail client and do not allow for any
automatic
execution. It is important to use a mail client that are supported by
the
anti virus software. Norton analyzes all incoming mails and the last
years
my system have been clean, when I do the weekly scan of my 2x20 Gb
disks.
I
scan for viruses one night a week and it takes around 8 hours to do
so.
The
Norton software is not expensive and Eudora has a free version
alternative
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
On Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:43:27 +0100, you wrote: Well Steve, The crackers as you call them are calling themselves hackers and the last 8 years they have been identified as hackers. Indeed. I wonder if this clear line that Steve paints is not always observed by all hackers, so that they *never* break in to others' systems? The hacker with whom I spoke had, at one time, been one of the world's more notorious crackers. Ultimately many of his acquaintances and friends went to prison. But when I spoke to him he was more or less a hacker, as he had tended to have less disrespect for systems and had ended up a more productive person. There may be good hackers who never break in to anyone else's system or what some would *call* themselves good hackers (who might break in but do no mischief beyond that) and bad hackers (who might do any amount of mischief and who should be called crackers but are often mixed with hackers by the press). I understand that the term itself (hacking) originally had zero negative connotation, but I wonder if the line is always observed as meticulously as the good hackers observe it, and whether all the supposedly good hackers never break in to others' systems. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
MM, You are so right, hacking code is something we have done for at least the last 30 years. This is not the same as being a hacker. I had some guys from southern Germany, hacking the code on a bulletin board that I was testing and introduced porno pictures. This is criminal and not a practical joke. I could track them down to ISP, connection port and exact time. The ISP could clearly identify the connection and customer. I reported this vandalism to the ISP and police. To fix it, it took me 3 hours, so I forwarded a claim of $225. I also took another bulletin board, so this supplier lost business. So this is now a cracker that are hacking my code on the server? Crackers, hackers, virus constructors are not only giving Internet a bad name, they are causing millions of $$ in losses. Hakan At 03:00 PM 12/8/2002 -0800, you wrote: On Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:43:27 +0100, you wrote: Well Steve, The crackers as you call them are calling themselves hackers and the last 8 years they have been identified as hackers. Indeed. I wonder if this clear line that Steve paints is not always observed by all hackers, so that they *never* break in to others' systems? The hacker with whom I spoke had, at one time, been one of the world's more notorious crackers. Ultimately many of his acquaintances and friends went to prison. But when I spoke to him he was more or less a hacker, as he had tended to have less disrespect for systems and had ended up a more productive person. There may be good hackers who never break in to anyone else's system or what some would *call* themselves good hackers (who might break in but do no mischief beyond that) and bad hackers (who might do any amount of mischief and who should be called crackers but are often mixed with hackers by the press). I understand that the term itself (hacking) originally had zero negative connotation, but I wonder if the line is always observed as meticulously as the good hackers observe it, and whether all the supposedly good hackers never break in to others' systems. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Hackers - Re: [biofuel] Re:Virus protection
http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/crime/denning.hackers.html Concerning Hackers Who Break into Computer Systems Dorothy E. Denning Digital Equipment Corp., Systems Research Center 130 Lytton Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94301 415-853-2252, [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be presented at the 13th National Computer Security Conference, Washington, D.C., Oct. 1-4, 1990. Abstract A diffuse group of people often called ``hackers'' has been characterized as unethical, irresponsible, and a serious danger to society for actions related to breaking into computer systems. This paper attempts to construct a picture of hackers, their concerns, and the discourse in which hacking takes place. My initial findings suggest that hackers are learners and explorers who want to help rather than cause damage, and who often have very high standards of behavior. My findings also suggest that the discourse surrounding hacking belongs at the very least to the gray areas between larger conflicts that we are experiencing at every level of society and business in an information age where many are not computer literate. These conflicts are between the idea that information cannot be owned and the idea that it can, and between law enforcement and the First and Fourth Amendments. Hackers have raised serious issues about values and practices in an information society. Based on my findings, I recommend that we work closely with hackers, and suggest several actions that might be taken. [more] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
