Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL
Hi Chandan, Pagandai and all Dear Pannirselvam, Thanks for the detailed response. I gather that there is good opportunity to add to the experimentally established results on castor based biodiesel and the blends that might work well. I'm right now exploring a tie-up with one of the govt research labs and an agricultural university here in India to set up a small research project. Your inputs are very helpful for me to determine how to set the scope of the project.There is a lot of hard selling on jatropha going on around here. My purpose is to match the results (FUD?) available on jatropha based agrofuel number by number with results on castor based fuel. Interesting Chandan, good for you, good luck! The one problem with castor oil is the high viscosity, and with castor oil biodiesel as well. There's quite a lot about it in previous discussions, in the archives. Castor oil is not like other oils, it has some unique properties, quite a lot about that too, worth having a look. Blending straight castor oil and ethanol is an interesting prospect, perhaps starting with the 9% addition of 95% ethanol the ACREVO report recommends - much improved combustion, and lower viscosity too. From there on up to the 20% castor oil and 80% wet ethanol blend David Blume reports. That should be very nice for diesel motors, they'd probably last forever. Nice for farmers too, castorbean is generally a better option than jatropha. You can fit it into a cropping system for instance, and it seems to grow just about anywhere. I posted a message last Sunday on the local scenario here regarding the new small car Tata Nano, but not sure if it got through to the list. Yes, it's here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71687.html Forgot the pedestrians, aarghh! LOL! All best Keith Chandan Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote: Dear Chandan and all the list member Even though I am in Brazil ,which export the meat very large , I actualy live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I also india from south India as you pointed out , Today the Festival Pongal not only in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia, , as Cattle the animal are well treated as the make sustainable living possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this old , we may think of ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals all mixed like what happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and approach are always rural ecological and sustainable bio systems sotaht several unemployed people can make biofuel from this mega city. Alcohol stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year of study to sue ethanol in compression engine is based on the two hypothesis as you pointed out : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT BD (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel) and the co solvent effect , where as the amount of BD need not to be very high compared to the micro emulsion method , as this need more amount of BD and equipment too for making emulsion with an energy intensive process. We came to this new useful biofuel product formula not only by hypothesis , but using system engineering methods We do look for simulated experiments results by google search to validate our hypothesis and models .As Keith has pointed out some German group who also work with vegetable oil have also reported this blend as the one work too , yet not much details . Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend , but we are not able to go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish to have fresh look on what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in Brazil. The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made patent on BD making diretly from Castor seeds and make viable the process by coproducts values , so that Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel Producer of the world ( See who will be the world big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our recent wiki http://www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com ) To be very clear to ver question , we can say that not that our work is hypothesis , but an system model , little proved yet we need much proven practical results, as we have very little evidence and I am very sorry to inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are on the half way. Our work is indeed very limited to the time and money as an all Academic University based sysem study, as Keith always refer it to be more limited , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay in the halfway..Rarely good fund is made as we get good results, as fund is over the good results cant be turned into more useful and
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL
Dear Chandan and all the list member Even though I am in Brazil ,which export the meat very large , I actualy live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I also india from south India as you pointed out , Today the Festival Pongal not only in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia, , as Cattle the animal are well treated as the make sustainable living possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this old , we may think of ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals all mixed like what happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and approach are always rural ecological and sustainable bio systems sotaht several unemployed people can make biofuel from this mega city. Alcohol stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year of study to sue ethanol in compression engine is based on the two hypothesis as you pointed out : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT BD (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel) and the co solvent effect , where as the amount of BD need not to be very high compared to the micro emulsion method , as this need more amount of BD and equipment too for making emulsion with an energy intensive process. We came to this new useful biofuel product formula not only by hypothesis , but using system engineering methods We do look for simulated experiments results by google search to validate our hypothesis and models .As Keith has pointed out some German group who also work with vegetable oil have also reported this blend as the one work too , yet not much details . Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend , but we are not able to go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish to have fresh look on what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in Brazil. The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made patent on BD making diretly from Castor seeds and make viable the process by coproducts values , so that Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel Producer of the world ( See who will be the world big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our recent wiki http://www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com ) To be very clear to ver question , we can say that not that our work is hypothesis , but an system model , little proved yet we need much proven practical results, as we have very little evidence and I am very sorry to inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are on the half way. Our work is indeed very limited to the time and money as an all Academic University based sysem study, as Keith always refer it to be more limited , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay in the halfway..Rarely good fund is made as we get good results, as fund is over the good results cant be turned into more useful and we wish to go further. There are two known method or way to make rural energy , use VO , or BD , but for small system project we can think of one more way the hybrid one the biofuel blend .In this new approach we can use BD very less as it is also as an good co solvent additives and surfactant , thus we can have less problems with adoption of motor with this new biofuel blend compared to VO and as this need less energy, as BD making is not simple , but a complex one to be done in village level .The big compnay can make BD,the small farmer can thus can make his own localy made biofuel blend , to aviod the economic exploition of the big oil companies .Both the public and private oil company want to exploit the smal farmer buying the oil very cheap and selling the fuel very high .Thus sustainable food will not be possible with is present system ,as well documented by Keith in recent post here in our list . More over vegetable oil use can be economic problem as the price are expensive..The use of ethanol and BD extraction vegetable seed Principal the castor and cashew nut oil as well as the biol oil can be pratical method tommake biofuel .However in our system design approach we are limited to approach . Surely who uses the system need to do the home work experimenting the method. Thus practical work alone without undersatanding what one do , can be good for big biofuel as they wish to sell the products. Several public and private oil company have their patent related with BD as additives.I am sure som of our list members also knows , do Phd work .They will not make this open as they do not care for small systems and also small farmer. Our system analysis group wish one understand the system , the use it , not the block box ,practical ready made things. thus our approach compliments several hand made , self made biofuel project
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators ; VO ou BD or Blend:Small System MODEL
Dear Pannirselvam, Thanks for the detailed response. I gather that there is good opportunity to add to the experimentally established results on castor based biodiesel and the blends that might work well. I'm right now exploring a tie-up with one of the govt research labs and an agricultural university here in India to set up a small research project. Your inputs are very helpful for me to determine how to set the scope of the project.There is a lot of hard selling on jatropha going on around here. My purpose is to match the results (FUD?) available on jatropha based agrofuel number by number with results on castor based fuel. I posted a message last Sunday on the local scenario here regarding the new small car Tata Nano, but not sure if it got through to the list. Chandan Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote: Dear Chandan and all the list member Even though I am in Brazil ,which export the meat very large , I actualy live in the native place of south American Indians, even though I also india from south India as you pointed out , Today the Festival Pongal not only in Tamil nadu state , but also in Singapure ,Malaysia, , as Cattle the animal are well treated as the make sustainable living possible , not the machine tractor .Thus based on this old , we may think of ruralise modern mega cities with plants , animals all mixed like what happend in the road to new Delhi railway station . The Indian ways and approach are always rural ecological and sustainable bio systems sotaht several unemployed people can make biofuel from this mega city. Alcohol stove , simple briquete made using animal waste can make possible a true `Pongal festivel for all the citizen of the big city Coming to your question the mixture formulation we ARRIVED after 17 year of study to sue ethanol in compression engine is based on the two hypothesis as you pointed out : the micro emulsion USING SURFACTANT BD (alcohol, BD , Petro Diesel) and the co solvent effect , where as the amount of BD need not to be very high compared to the micro emulsion method , as this need more amount of BD and equipment too for making emulsion with an energy intensive process. We came to this new useful biofuel product formula not only by hypothesis , but using system engineering methods We do look for simulated experiments results by google search to validate our hypothesis and models .As Keith has pointed out some German group who also work with vegetable oil have also reported this blend as the one work too , yet not much details . Two years ago we worked out this biofuel blend , but we are not able to go further experiments wiith lack of funds.We wish to have fresh look on what Keith has told about the use of Ethanol and Castor oil , the the successful experiments done in Brazil the ready avilable raw material in Brazil. The Brazilian PETROBRAS has made patent on BD making diretly from Castor seeds and make viable the process by coproducts values , so that Brazil wish to be the Big Biofuel Producer of the world ( See who will be the world big player of BD in future here in this list and also in our recent wiki http://www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ (www.ecosyseng.wetpaint.com ) To be very clear to ver question , we can say that not that our work is hypothesis , but an system model , little proved yet we need much proven practical results, as we have very little evidence and I am very sorry to inform that much detailed studies not have been done , but we are on the half way. Our work is indeed very limited to the time and money as an all Academic University based sysem study, as Keith always refer it to be more limited , but we are unable to go till the end , but stay in the halfway..Rarely good fund is made as we get good results, as fund is over the good results cant be turned into more useful and we wish to go further. There are two known method or way to make rural energy , use VO , or BD , but for small system project we can think of one more way the hybrid one the biofuel blend .In this new approach we can use BD very less as it is also as an good co solvent additives and surfactant , thus we can have less problems with adoption of motor with this new biofuel blend compared to VO and as this need less energy, as BD making is not simple , but a complex one to be done in village level .The big compnay can make BD,the small farmer can thus can make his own localy made biofuel blend , to aviod the economic exploition of the big oil companies .Both the public and private oil company want to exploit the smal farmer buying the oil very cheap and selling the fuel very high .Thus sustainable food will not be possible with is present system ,as well documented by Keith in recent post here in our list . More over vegetable oil use can be economic problem as the price are
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Helo Thomas We are experimenting to use cashew nut shell liquid and spent SVO as additives to alcohol for gasoline engien .if we want we can suply from Brasil to you With regards pannirselvam 2008/1/7, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Keith, Thanks. Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel generator, but may help me in my quest to run a gasoline car, legally, on homebrewed ethanol. If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it. I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest it all myself. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW. 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%, 190-proof (95%) should be doable. This is from David Blume's excellent book Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as Dry Gas, is nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with the gasoline. In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F [20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline. And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use 200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel. Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95% would do just as well. David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50% ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the time and 50-50 alcohol and biodiesel should be fine. He thinks a minimum of 20% biodiesel and 80% alcohol would also be fine, but says it needs testing (with a dynamometer and a knock-meter). What % water would be tolerated? Water in the fuel can be a Good Thing, it improves combustion efficiency and reduces emissions - just as long as it stays in the fuel and doesn't separate. This EPA
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators or BD or Blend
Happy new year for all the list members I am Pagandai Pannirselvam from Brazil. Very glad that after some 2 years of my post about blended biofuel , we have now come agian to make the debate. When I wrote about hydrated ethanol is E 96 azeotropic mixture as correctly pointed out by Keith. Recently I had made english translation of Brazilian practical experience in the page below which do not bring some practical experience of the use of fuel blend , instead of BD , in the Ecological system design wiki http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/page/Ecological++Biofuel+%3ABrazilian+Experiencehttp://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/page/Ecological++Biofuel+%253ABrazilian+Experience The following is the text of Sylmar, CATI, SP Brasil Adopted resume of the translated text from Sylmar sited origional work in http://www.cati.sp.gov.br/_Cati2007/_produtos/SementesMudas/biodiesel.php From May 2003 until the second half of 2005, all tractors of Core Production of Seeds of Aguas de Santa Bárbara, CATI,SP ,BR with the jet engines direct or indirect, one of the unit Ataliba Leonel (MF235 said previously ) came to be moved with a mixture of vegetable oil (30%) more diesel oil (65%) and solvent (5% of petrol common). This mixture, called a biofuel, has very close viscosity of the oil diesel oil. A Mercedes-Benz truck, model 1313, year 1978, was also tested, running 6,000 kilometers with a mixture biofuel. The summary of the final results of these evaluations is transcribed below: Tractor / Truck * Manufacturing Year /Duration Test /Consumption average /Problems identified * Ford 5610 (ID) 1986 /1,000 hours 4.2 liters / hour no MF 65x (ID) 1972 /500 hours 3.5 liters / hour no MF 50x (II) 1972 /300 hours 2.5 liters / hour no CBT 2105 (ID) 1978 250 hours 8.7 liters / hour no MF 235 (II) 1978 1,000 hours 2.5 liters / hour no Mercedes-Benz 1313 (ID) 1978 6,000 km 3.5 km / liter none Final considerations: - The use of 100% vegetable oil as a fuel in place of diesel oil, it is possible to run , but also depends on appropriate technology of jet engines and systems to prevent potential problems caused, mainly, by non-combustion total of such oils because of high viscosity of them. The biofuel mixture consisting of 30% of vegetable oil + 65% of diesel oil from oil + 5% of gasoline with alcohol anhydrous (75% + 25%), used to replace the diesel oil from oil, appears to be a very interesting option for both direct injection engines and indirect, allowing the reduction of dependence on non-renewable fossil fuel and opening a significant market for the production of oil. This option must be considered and evaluated scientifically to obtain safe and definitive conclusions. The mixture biofuel cited in the period and the conditions in which it was tested, not shown any of the inconveniences caused by the total replacement of diesel oil by oil vegetable oils, in all cases evaluated. We must also highlight that for the tractor Ford 5610, strong indications of significant reduction of consumption were obtained during the period, which used the mixture. - Because of the possibility of: a) production of various oilseeds in all regions of Brazil, including in the semi-arid regions, b) obtaining and extraction of vegetable oils by pressing the cold and filtering directly by the severity level of rural property c) use of technology already available in European countries that allows the direct use of vegetable oils as fuel; feel the urgent need for that in our country, also devotes special attention to the alternative use of renewable fuel, in addition to the others who already are being used and encouraged, such as alcohol and biodiesel. For more information please contact and Regional Office of Andradina e SYLMAR , CATI ,SP, BR tel: 55 (18) 3722-3040. The amount much water can be good for IC motor , however the fuel efficiency willl be low. The role of Biodisel is more as an additive as same as castor oil use with hydrated ethanol , as solubility and miscibility of the only oil with ethanoo is castor oil, also having good lubricant additive properties . There is problems with blending of SVO and ethanol , as they do not mix well.several years experince to find cheap additive based on perfural , isoamyl alcohol can solve the problems in small quantity , but are found to be expansivos. The max amountof SVO found to be maxium 50 porcents petro deiesel , , other is there is problem of viscosity.The other need to be some fuel diluente petro diesel , kerosene, gasoline , alcohol and now also BD too. As mentioned in the following Brazilian experience and reports Gasoline poved to be better than alcohol to be miixed with with SVO as 75 porcent gasoline and 25 porcent ethanol However the use of BD can make possible the use of hyrated alcohol with hiher level as it is surfactant with hydrophilic and hydrophoic oil water phase miscibility , alcohol as co solvents.But as small amount as pointed out
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators or BD or Blend
Pannirselvam, Happy New Year to you from India. Good to see your mail after a long time, but I'm quite confused by it. I thought Keith only reported what YOU wrote earlier on 9/25/2006 (regarding mixing ~20% BD and 5-10% ethanol into (fresh/used) VO to reduce viscosity). Could you please specifically clarify if you or your associates have actually made this kind of mixture work or if you have seen this being done or if you are making a hypothesis that needs experimental verification? Thanks and regards. Chandan Pagandai Pannirselvam wrote: snip Based on what Keith has reported recently, castor oil 20 % can be used to 80 % ethanol hydrated ,I am sure again a significant amount of ethanol can be replaced using SVO with viscosity as the limit,thus there will not be no need for BD in rural areas to run generator. Milled Castor beans can be used extract ethanol from water , then pressed , mixed with the SVO , so taht the engine can run with out engine modification and also without the expensive BD . snip Yours truely Pagandai V pannirselvam 2008/1/7, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Hi Tom Keith, Thanks. Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel generator, but may help me in my quest to run a gasoline car, legally, on homebrewed ethanol. Our TownAce has an Elsbett system and can run on petro-diesel, biodiesel or SVO, pure or in any mix (though we never use petro-diesel). It would be an interesting option to add 190-proof ethanol (or less) at up to 50% of the blend, or even 80% maybe. Real multi-fuel vehicle. Maybe I'll have the chance to explore it a bit further soon, buy a few cans of 95% ethanol and do some tests. Or something. If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it. Do a one-litre batch first? I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest it all myself. :-) Just a bunch of questions really, sounds good, but it'd be nice if somebody did have real on-the-ground experience of it. I agree with Fritz though, it's a risk, no guarantees, not much you could recommend to someone wanting a reliable solution. Best to You, And to you Tom Keith Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW. 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%, 190-proof (95%) should be doable. This is from David Blume's excellent book Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as Dry Gas, is nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with the gasoline. In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F [20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline. And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use 200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel. Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95% would do just as well. David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50% ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the time and 50
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Hi Tom, you could have achieved the low startload of havy motors with a Star Delta switch. Fritz - Original Message - From: Tom Thiel To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since the rotor is already spinning. If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet stacking potential in the system. I await the SVO discussion with great interest. Tom Thiel On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080107/437ad854/attachment.html
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Thanks Zeke. It sounds like it would be like running WVO in a diesel car; warm up the engine using BD, heat up the WVO, purge the lines before shutting down. I'll pass on the concern re: wet stacking. Do you happen to know what WVO should be filtered to (ex 10 mincrons, 1 micron) to run in a diesel motor? Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Tom, Thanks for the reply. I'll pass on the info Tom - Original Message - From: Tom Thiel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since the rotor is already spinning. If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet stacking potential in the system. I await the SVO discussion with great interest. Tom Thiel On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Thanks Fritz. I'll pass on the info regarding fuel consumption. He mentioned that he has been looking into getting a caterpillar diesel generator. I suspect that is where he got the 11.5 L/hour figure. He may have a reliable source for WVO. Using WVO rather than BD is appealing, because settling/filtering is more appealing to him than processing the oil into BD. He also has concerns regarding disposal of the glycerin produced. I'll pass along your concern regarding SVO or even a blend. I'm sure he can appreciate what you mean when you say that A breakdown would be costly, specially it would always happen in the worst time. Do you have any thoughts about using BD in a woodshop generator? I'll also pass along the info on your Genset and your coordinates. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hi Tom, i have a 100KvA 600V Dieselgenerator with a 140 HP Mitsubishi Engine.The consumption by staedy 30A is a little less than 8 liters/hr. I would not take the chance and run the Gen on straigt WVO or even a blend of the same. The Genset has to perform staedy in a woodworkshop.A braekdown would be to costly,specially it would always happen in the worst time! My Genset by the way is for sale,it has 370hrs on and is in mint condition. If your woodworking student is interested please give him my coordinates www.boiseriestraditionnelles.ca Fritz - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:01 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/77db28bc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Keith, Thanks. Not only will your reply be helpful in the matter of the diesel generator, but may help me in my quest to run a gasoline car, legally, on homebrewed ethanol. If the water in 95% ethanol will not cause problems when I denature the ethanol with gasoline (2 gallons per 100 gal of ethanol), I can, with a permit, legally produce ethanol and run cars on it. I will pass on the information you have provided, and attempt to digest it all myself. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello Tom Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. He says with less problem, I'm not sure if that means without problem but it might do. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? No experience, sorry, but some thoughts might help, FWIW. 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured The maximum purity you can get straight from the still is about 96%, 190-proof (95%) should be doable. This is from David Blume's excellent book Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. In fact the bottled additive to combat water in your tank, generically known as Dry Gas, is nothing more than 200-proof alcohol, which causes the water to blend with the gasoline. In Brazil, they pump alcohol that contains about 4% water. In warm climates there is absolutely no problem in mixing wet alcohol with gasoline, but all of Brazil is not warm and balmy. When I visited there, a General Motors engineer showed me a study that accurately outlined the physical limits of mixing water, alcohol, and gasoline. According to the paper, published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, at about 68 deg F [20 deg C], alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22 deg F! [-30 deg C] This means that those of you who live in milder climates don't have to go through the extra step of producing dry 200-proof alcohol to get it to mix properly with gasoline. And if you do live in minus 22 deg F, you would generally only have to use 200-proof during the winter and only if you were going back and forth between alcohol and gasoline in a non-flexible-fuel vehicle. Flexible-fuel vehicles will simply adjust to phase-separated fuel. Pagandai was probably referring to 96% ethanol, 4% water, but I guess 95% would do just as well. David Blume also refers to farmers' tests in the US using blends of petro-diesel, biodiesel and dry ethanol in diesel engines. Most used 50% ethanol, and 25% each of biodiesel and petro-diesel, but Blume says they only used the petro-diesel because it was cheaper than biodiesel at the time and 50-50 alcohol and biodiesel should be fine. He thinks a minimum of 20% biodiesel and 80% alcohol would also be fine, but says it needs testing (with a dynamometer and a knock-meter). What % water would be tolerated? Water in the fuel can be a Good Thing, it improves combustion efficiency and reduces emissions - just as long as it stays in the fuel and doesn't separate. This EPA paper for instance, Bibliography of Water-Fuel Emulsions Studies, lists 23 studies, all with diesels: Following is a list of studies that are being considered for inclusion in work being done by EPA to assess the effects of water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Hi Tom, i have a 100KvA 600V Dieselgenerator with a 140 HP Mitsubishi Engine.The consumption by staedy 30A is a little less than 8 liters/hr. I would not take the chance and run the Gen on straigt WVO or even a blend of the same. The Genset has to perform staedy in a woodworkshop.A braekdown would be to costly,specially it would always happen in the worst time! My Genset by the way is for sale,it has 370hrs on and is in mint condition. If your woodworking student is interested please give him my coordinates www.boiseriestraditionnelles.ca Fritz - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:01 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/77db28bc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO in Diesel Generators
Regarding starting motors in our off-grid woodshop: we treat 1 horsepower motors as intermittent-use, starting and stopping them at will. Larger motors are paired with a 1 horsepower motor to start each machine. After it is up to speed, the main motor is turned on. This system reduces the start-loading of the large motors almost down to full load amp rating, and its elapsed time to less than a second, since the rotor is already spinning. If he has an inverter / battery system, the battery bank will charge variably as (headroom) power is available, reducing the light-load wet stacking potential in the system. I await the SVO discussion with great interest. Tom Thiel On 6 Jan, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Seems to me like an engine running an 8 hour shift would be ideal for SVO -- you'd have to start it on biodiesel till it got up to operating temperature, then just make sure the incoming SVO is as hot as you can get it -- 180F or higher. The schemes to just thin SVO with biodiesel and ethanol seem pretty risky. One thing to think about is wet stacking the generator depending on the loading of the shop -- many diesel generators cannot be run at less than 20% of full load, and if the generator is sized for starting large motors, it may not operate at this level consistently. Z On Jan 6, 2008 6:01 PM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, On 9/25/06 Pagandai Pannirselvan wrote: The small co generation of electrical energy based on the bio diesel can make possible the use of pure used vegetable oil and also some e 5 porcent hydrated ethanol , making possible to lower the viscosity of used vegetable oil in deiesel engine, removing dependence with Conventional deisel. Thus the blend of used vegetable oil 70 percent, hyrated ethanol 10 percent and biodeisel 20 porcent can be used with less problem for motor maintainence in rural areas. I've recently been contacted by a former student who would like to generate his own electricity for his woodworking business. He is considering a diesel generator and asked about biodiesel. I suggested he look into using a BD/WVO blend rather than processing it all into BD, as he would be using about 3 gallons (11.4 L) per hour (120+ gal/week). 1. Does anyone have experience using a blend such as that suggested by Pagandai Pannirselvan in a diesel generator? 2. Hydrated ethanol: What % water would be tolerated? In the U.S. it is possible to get a permit to distill ethanol. Only that which leaves the premises must be denatured to prevent human consumption. 85-90% ethanol is do-able, and used on premises would not have to be denatured 3. Could E-85 be substituted for the hydrated ethanol? I've heard of commercial suppliers adding small amounts of gasoline to their diesel. Since the E-85 would only constitute 10% of the mix, the total gasoline would only be .15 X .10 = .0150 (1.5%) Thanks, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080106/e76c540e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
