Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
I agree on everything but I don't see the US entering sustainability easily or willingly, especially from those on top reaping most of the profits. The high speed economy is their life blood and most importantly the government's! The US is keeping energy low cost for this very reason. The oil is going to have to run out and the prices to run up before major sustainable progress is to be made, I'm afraid. Of course it will have a large cost in lives and standard of living. I do have a small issue with the share of world resources facts. Those societies that have the most population are breeding out of control. They are starving, can't feed themselves but have enough energy to continue to make babies. You can't blame this on ignorance because hunger cannot be ignored. Therefore, these breeders can trump everyone else because they have the most people! Knowing this, these facts just do not make me feel guilty. The blame has to be shared. Lillie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Darryl, We were trying to get to a unique graphical presentation included in the report of the first solar chimney which they constructed in Spain. Not just the information on solar chimneys. Art - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty You can also try this URL to get to a more friendly start point. http://www.sbp.de/en/html/home/solar_chimney.html Darryl McMahon To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent:Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:29:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Send reply to:biofuel@yahoogroups.com Andrew, Try this URL: http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html On the upper right side of the page there is a list of articles which can be downloaded. Chose THE SOLAR CHIMNEY (360 kb) article. Open the article and look on page 3 for this great graphic that puts population, Gross National Product and BTU's into perspective by country. I hope you enjoy the article and concept as well. It is quite revolutionary to use solar power 24 hours per day. Art - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.htmlThe graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
You can also try this URL to get to a more friendly start point. http://www.sbp.de/en/html/home/solar_chimney.html Darryl McMahon To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:29:11 -0700 Subject:Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Send reply to: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Andrew, Try this URL: http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html On the upper right side of the page there is a list of articles which can be downloaded. Chose THE SOLAR CHIMNEY (360 kb) article. Open the article and look on page 3 for this great graphic that puts population, Gross National Product and BTU's into perspective by country. I hope you enjoy the article and concept as well. It is quite revolutionary to use solar power 24 hours per day. Art - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.htmlThe graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Hi Brian Thanks for the forward. I find it disturbing that the article is recommenting conversion to wood alcohol Wood gas, not wood alcohol. Producer gas. Here: http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html#woodgas as a potential energy alternative, even to the point of giving recommendations on how to cut down trees. Yes, trees are renewable, but not quickly. Our tree reserve would fail even more quickly than our oil reserve, and the consequences would be even more dire. Brian You're looking at the wrong paradigm, IMHO. I know it's hard, but we all have to get used to the idea of looking at familiar things in a different and unfamiliar light, in a different context, with different relationships among them, and between them and us. Going on and on playing the same old business-as-usual game with a few quick fixes and band-aids stuck on it isn't going to work. That's what's got us here now, and it's not at all where we're supposed to have been, to our great cost and everybody else's, including the not-yet born. This has all been known for 30 years, and until very recently we'd done NOTHING about it. The worst offenders have still done nothing about it. And we sneer at Nero and King Canute. Sorry to say all that, and this, but our tree reserve and our oil reserve are the wrong indicators. We can see all the projections being made, of growth in fossil-fuel use based on current use and recent rates of increase and projected economic growth and so on and so on, the US DoE forecasts that biodiesel will account for such-and-such a proportion of national fuel use in 20 years at current growth rates - it's not going to happen. One reason I forwarded this message from Tvo is that he's talking about what we often talk about here, many of us, when we discuss a rational and sustainable energy future and the role biodiesel and other biofuels can play in it. Mere substitution of fossil-fuel use by biofuel use is not an answer. It will take great reductions in energy use, great improvements in energy efficiency, and perhaps most important, decentralisation of energy supply to local level, along with the use of all available technologies in appropriate combination according to local conditions. Tvo is talking about that local level, on a homestead: how to power your homestead/farm. I've often discussed that here, and said a mixed, integrated, sustainable farm (likely to be a small farm) can supply its own fuel without any fossil-fuel inputs and without the use of much or any dedicated land, mostly or completely from an ever-changing variety of by-products, with probably an excess to supply to the community. A woodlot of some kind is an essential element in such a mixed, integrated, sustainable farm, better still with a lot more trees than just those in the woodlot. Trees and woodlots are very productive. This is not the monocrop slash-and-burn nightmare of the biomass plantations the central energy planners envision. These are multiple species of multi-use trees at many stages of growth. Tvo's scheme is completely feasible and he knows it, he's done it, and he's not the only one. He just posted this at that list, in a message in a different thread: Large-scale, the charcoal market can be environmentally destructive, small-scale you can confine it to trash products in your woodlot that aren't even good as compost. And yes, homestead products CAN compete with industrial-scale products. You just have to be selective which products you produce and how they are distributed. Looked at from the central view, people throw up their arms in dismay at the idea of charcoal, and quite right too, the way they'd go about it. What isn't feasible, not even now, let alone when the crunch hits home, is the way the industrialised societies, especially the US, currently waste energy as if there's no tomorrow. Look at these figures: On a per capita basis, the US uses 5.4 times more than its fair share of the world's energy, the EU 2.6 times its share, Germany 2.6 times its share, France 2.8 times its share, Japan 2.7 times its share, Australia 3.8 times its share
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Andrew Lowe wrote: Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Replying to my own email, down at the bottom of the main page, there are various links, click on Contact. When the Contact page comes up, on the left hnd side, click on Downloads. When the downloads page comes up, have a look at Solar Chimney. This has, I think, the graph in question on p3. In fact the other papers on the page are worth a look as well. Regards, Andrew Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Andrew, Try this URL: http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html On the upper right side of the page there is a list of articles which can be downloaded. Chose THE SOLAR CHIMNEY (360 kb) article. Open the article and look on page 3 for this great graphic that puts population, Gross National Product and BTU's into perspective by country. I hope you enjoy the article and concept as well. It is quite revolutionary to use solar power 24 hours per day. Art - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Andrew, You would be the mouse the won the cheese for being able to navigate through their not-too-clear website and find the graphic. Good job!! Art - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Andrew Lowe wrote: Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Replying to my own email, down at the bottom of the main page, there are various links, click on Contact. When the Contact page comes up, on the left hnd side, click on Downloads. When the downloads page comes up, have a look at Solar Chimney. This has, I think, the graph in question on p3. In fact the other papers on the page are worth a look as well. Regards, Andrew Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Hallo Brian, Thursday, 29 April, 2004, 10:41:22, you wrote: B Thanks for the forward. I find it disturbing that the article is B recommenting conversion to wood alcohol as a potential energy B alternative, even to the point of giving recommendations on how to B cut down trees. Yes, trees are renewable, but not quickly. Our B tree reserve would fail even more quickly than our oil reserve, and B the consequences would be even more dire. B Brian I have been burning wood for heat for nearly 30 years. I get all the dead and down and diseased wood I need to heat and don't have to touch a live tree. I don't know if you can use dead/down wood for the alcohol production or not but there is potentially plenty of wood to be had by backyard producers I would think. Many people I know burn pallets or old construction lumber. Most people who own woods do not use it for anything (at least here in the states) and I would think that given that it would be possible to talk to folks and do some conservation cutting in other folks woods if they were approached properly. I just skimmed that mail so I don't know if it was about commercial production or backyard production but coming from a homesteading list I would assume the latter. I would think it is a matter of wise and judicious and conscientious use of forest resources, keeping in mind the needs of wildlife. Although I am not with the PETA crowd I do believe we share our world and have an obligation to conserve our resources and be mindful of other life forms. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
