Re: t-and-f: college sites (was: Another correction+)
--- Ed Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 1) Is there any good site for college meets now that College > Running is down? Not quite the same thing, but Run-Down always has, and hopefully always will, offered a directory of links to every known collegiate cross country/track & field web site in North America: http://run-down.com/Colleges/ CollegeRunning.com undertook a similar project at one point, but did not complete it because they felt it would be redundant (we bounced ideas off each other for a while). I know they were much more into live reports and what not, but the above URL should be better than nothing. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ---- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Fwd: adidas and Maurice Greene Begin Partnership
> The addition of Maurice to the adidas team is a perfect match. > It pairs he best sprinter with the leading sports brand. Adi > Dassler began making track and field spikes in 1926 and since > then adidas has been the leader in quality equipment. If they say it, then it must be true. Never mind market share or any of that stuff. I suppose "leading" could be taken to mean first, not best or most popular... > Look for Maurice to be wearing adidas shoes and apparel at this > year's top meetings. I would hope the implication that he won't be wearing adidas at the lesser meetings isn't true? > "He is the best at what he does, and we are trying to > be the best at what we do." Ah, now there's a more honest assessment! Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: adidas-Oregon -- Women's 100m Dash
The facility that hosted the meet does not normally use FinishLynx (they use that video system that doesn't seem like it would really be FAT), so I'm not sure who they had running it or if they had issues with setting up a temporary system. I can think of one definite scenario that could have caused the women's 100m problem with no reason to think to recall the start. With our FinishLynx system, we've developed a sporadic problem where the clock is started correctly, but the software (or maybe the hardware, but I don't think so) decides to take itself out of capture mode without indicating such on the screen. So, you get to the end of the race and go to capture the picture, but nothing shows up. Nothing you can do at that point other than get really frustrated... (If it actually indicated the undesirable change, you could switch capture off and back on and be ok, otherwise you have to think to check the capture before the race is over.) A second camera running on the same computer presumably would do nothing to help in that case. Still, that doesn't answer the question as to why no backup hand timers... I've seen a number of meets (at the host facility and elsewhere) that seem to think hip numbers are the answer to everything. As long as the camera can make out who's who from the side, who needs to keep finishers in order or get a backup time, right? Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 5/19/02 10:52:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > >And why no backup hand-timers, at least? I've never run a meet, only > >participated in them as an athlete, but I thought that was standard > >practice. > > > >Lee > > > Shouldn't there have been a recall issued by the photo timing operator, > or > was the malfunction not discovered until after the race? > > Jim Gerweck > Running Times = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Pre T.V. coverage
--- Mike Prizy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think the coverage was better. The coverage was much more > focused on the pure competition and less on athlete interviews It was also very nice to see that they told us there had been false starts instead of making us sit through them. > I like MJ, but it seems he is trying too hard to look for the > controversy and then has to dig himself out of a hole. He made a comment > right after Marion finished her 100 about her not going to be happy with > her performance. I actually thought it was nice to hear a commentator with the guts to analyze things from the standpoint of a competitor. Of course Marion's going to say she was happy -- she's one of the best at smiling for the camera and saying everything's peachy. Michael also commented on it being a bad sign for the 400 runners that a couple of 400 hurdlers pretty much kicked their collective butts. You don't think he takes it personally how poorly "his" event is running in his wake? If Larry Rawson is reading this, were you sitting at a really bad angle relative to the finish line? I was surprised by a number of your calls about who was leading races when it was quite clear on TV that someone else had already moved into the lead. Someone feeding you bad information as a spotter? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Pre T.V. coverage
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > It was also very nice to see that they told us there had > > been false starts instead of making us sit through them. > > I'll keep saying this until it gets through to people. The only time > that TV makes you "sit through" false starts is when it's a live show, > or when a false start(s) becomes part of the story. False starts are > basically ignored in taped shows(at least the ones that I work on). I almost added something to my above comment on Walt's behalf, knowing the reply that would be forthcoming. :-) Walt, I know you've stressed that point repeatedly, but your perception of what's being shown doesn't seem to match what people are viewing with regards to false starts on taped broadcasts. Why else do you think you would have to keep defending that issue? Yesterday was the first such instance I can think of where the false starts were not shown (I've missed a lot of them, so I can only comment on the broadcasts I've seen). Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ---- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Full Response (false starts on TV)
"I can categorically deny that false starts are routinely shown on taped shows. The only time they would be shown is when they become an integral part of the story of the event." That's one heck of a disclaimer, Walt. Who decides what is integral, and how often does that happen? No reason to get upset. I know what I've seen, you know what you've produced, the two positions contradict each other, and one of us is wrong. So be it. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hit the send key too soon. > > In a message dated 5/27/02 8:41:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << but your perception of what's being shown doesn't seem > to match what people are viewing with regards to false starts on taped > broadcasts. Why else do you think you would have to keep defending that > issue? >> > > Because that's just what it is--a perception Since I work on 99.9% > of the > track shows that air on CBS,NBC,ABC,ESPN,TNT,Nick at Nite, The Food > Channel(you get my point), I can categorically deny that false starts > are > routinely shown on taped shows. The only time they would be shown is > when they become an integral part of the story of the event. > > There is always a pre-meet production meeting and that issue is raised > every time--"False starts don't exist in our show". If there is a false > start, the announcers will usually do what's called a "re-set", in which > they redo the entire introduction to the event--records, lane > assignments, etc. That is why you sometimes see a delay(if you're at the > particular event) in the runners getting back into their blocks. > > Bring on your criticism if you will, but please get your facts straight > before you do. > > Walt Murphy = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Full Response (false starts on TV)
> As long as everyone knows that it's you who is wrong. Easy there. That kind of testiness tends to indicate unfounded defensiveness... > I just don't understand why you and others keep bringing it up. That's an easy one. If your explanation matched what us ill-informed viewers keep seeing on broadcasts, then we wouldn't be bringing it up. Why would anyone be making this up? Keep in mind that I alluded to it originally as a compliment, not as an insult or critique. To me at least, that implies someone who isn't looking to bash the broadcast, thus has no reason to be looking for areas of controversy. I'm quite curious to hear your response to Kurt Bray's points on the matter. How does your explanation below fit with Marion's false start being shown? Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > << That's one heck of a disclaimer, Walt. Who decides what is integral, > and how often does that happen? > > No reason to get upset. I know what I've seen, you know what you've > produced, the two positions contradict each other, and one of us is > wrong. So be it. >> > > Dan, > As long as everyone knows that it's you who is wrong. Even if you have > seen false-starts on a taped show sometime in the past, it hasn't > happened in recent years(with rare exceptions for the reasons I stated > in my previous post--and I can't remember the last time it happened), > and I just don't understand why you and others keep bringing it up. > > As for who decides what is integral, you can bet we would show false > starts if a Maurice Greene or a Marion Jones was dq'd. And false starts > get a mention(but that's all) when we have to explain an open lane, as > when Jon Drummond was dq'd on Sunday. Otherwise, they don't exist in a > taped show. > > Walt Murphy > (Wishing I could think of some Malmoisms to really express how I feel > about this) = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: hs uniforms
--- "Michael J. Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please ... get this uniform rule changed across the US to read as > follows: "... The top and bottom are of a color scheme so as to allow > for officials to differentiate between competitors of opposing > programs and recognize which program a participant belongs to." Careful, I think that definition might just make things even worse. We have 3 schools in the conference with an identical make of uniform (speedsuits). One is black, one is dark purple, and the other is navy. Very difficult to tell apart unless you can read the name from straight on or recognize the athlete. Would these schools have to invest in new uniforms under that definition? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: re: hs uniforms
I'm confused. I thought you were saying the rule should be written so that all that matters about uniforms is that the school issues them and that they clearly differentiate the competitors? Your point below is exactly what I was countering with... Dan --- "Michael J. Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Point taken, but how many times do schools show up in similar colors > already?? It happens all the time in HS competitions. When I raced > in HS, a team in our league had the exact same uniforms, and we had > no problems telling anyone apart. [snip] > What I'm saying is if the school issues/approves of a uniform, that > is all that matters. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: T&F Globe Article
Hmm, I'm not quite sure what to make of that article. Some good points are made, most of which fall into the common sense category and wouldn't seem to require researching -- the major variable once you have a lot of athletes at a roughly equal level is likely to be the environment. Overall, I'd have to say it leaves a lot more questions than answers... "When they compared their predicted advances in world records to actual results in world track and field events, they hit the target for two-thirds of the events." What do they consider hitting a target and what is "significant variance?" In events that vary by a few hundreths of a second from year to year, what were the researchers expecting to see??? Did they also look at prior 10 year periods to see if that's just the nature of the sport (i.e. similar times from year to year)? That would sure affect any conclusions about what that means for record breaking possibilities. By the way, here's a slightly shorter version of the URL that seems to still pick up the important pieces: > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/common/FullStory.html&cf=tgam/common/FullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&date=20020530&hub=headdex&cache_key=headdexScience Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Michigan freshman Webb may turn pro...
"Cook has been a long-time mentor to Raczko. A year ago Raczko and Warhurst had a model relationship, talking constantly about short- and long-term objectives, including the 2004 Olympics. The relationship has deteriorated." That's quite a loaded teaser. Anyone know details? Dan --- Paul Merca <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ...see Dick Patrick's article at > > http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/stories/2002-05-30-webb.htm > > Paul Merca = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
t-and-f: Fantasy T&F / Athens Grand Prix
And if you want to add some extra interest to the usual checking of results tomorrow, the Athens Grand Prix marks the first event of the maiden voyage of the Run-Down Fantasy Track & Field League. http://run-down.com/fantasy/faq.php 9pm PST this evening (6/9) is the deadline to set up an account and select your roster if you want to participate. No cost to join in, of course. Dan --- Michalis Nikitaridis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The official entry lists for the Athens Grand Prix, to be held tomorrow, > are announced in the morning. Ato Bolton and Maurice Greene arrived > yesterday in Athens airport, ready for the 100 m. race. > > The meeting starts at 19.00 local time. Live commentary from > www.athletix.org > > For the full entry lists see also the above link. > > Michalis Nikitaridis > Panayotis Christopoulos = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: NYTimes.com Article: Milers on a Four-Minute Mission
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Yeah, but has any Canadian done it who wasn't one of Ontario's "Grade > 13" people, ergo tending to be a year older than American counterparts? If 1500m conversions count, I believe Kevin Sullivan has a 3:38 to his credit as a 12th grader that is certainly of sub-4 material. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Jason Drake new distance coach at Washington State Univ.
"Drake, who was the distance coach at Colorado for the past eight years..." Wetmore wasn't the distance coach at Colorado??? Can't say I know who Jason Drake is. Assistant distance coach, maybe? http://cubuffs.ocsn.com/sports/c-track/mtt/colo-c-track-mtt.html Hmm, looks like he was the mid-distance coach there. That would make more sense. I hope WSU knows that. ;-) Dan --- Paul Merca <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ...full story at: > > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/134477122_regr18.html > > Paul Merca = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: American distance running & walking
--- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Actually I was referring more to the fact that Pena wouldn't > be there than the fact that Clausen would be absent. Gee, that sure was obvious from the statement that started this whole thread: "While the clinic is starting the most successful U.S. male endurance athlete in International Competition for the past fifteen years or so in any event beyond 800 meters will be finishing his race. The timing also prevents the attendance/participation of a coach who has actually coached an OG gold medalist in an endurance event." Couldn't have hurt to clarify that earlier on... The "also" piece didn't quite sound like your main point. > To rule out the possibility that endurance coaches could not > learn from him [... but could learn from a panel with little > if any international success is perhaps indicative of the problem > we have developing world class male endurance athletes here.] An unwanted "not" in there perhaps? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Ross sets AR in javelin as field events dominate Day 1
--- USATF Communications <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... Chryste Gaines ran a speedy time of 10.96 with a headwind of > 2.6 mps to win the first semifinal heat of the womens 100m. > ... Marion Jones answered with a 10.98 running into a 4.2 mps > headwind... In the first round, Jones ran 11.26 into a brisk > headwind of 4.2 mps, with Gaines posting a time of 11.22 with a > headwind of 2.6 mps. Hey Jill, you weren't in charge of reporting those wind readings for FloJo in '88, were you? ;-) Deja vu... > The semifinals of the mens 100m ... Greene sent > message for the final by winning in 9.99, ... Montgomery was second > in 10.09. The wind was virtually still. I believe this is also an error, as Montgomery looks to have been 2nd in his heat in 10.13, with Drummond being 2nd overall in 10.09. Those errors jumped out at me just from a quick skim of the press release, so there may be others. However, I do have to praise USATF for doing an excellent job of getting results posted quite promptly on their site in very usable fashion. http://www.usatf.org/events/2002/USAOutdoorChampionships/schedule.asp Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Guerrouj challenges Marion Jones to 400-metre dash
Ah, but the quoted text did not say 49 is the best he could run, just that that's his PR. When did he last run a timed 400? Simply a reporting issue, or the wiley ElG trying to play with words for a cushy handicap? I would guess he can run 47.0, maybe better. Dan --- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If El G. can only run 49 for the quarter then I'll > be an Olympian in 2004!! > > He's run what, 51 or 52 for the last lap of a 1500m before. > > > The Moroccan said his personal 400-metres best was > > about 49.0 seconds = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Wither Bislett?
I've been wondering if the "TV friendly" format that's been bounced around the past few years and seems much more evident this year can be anything but death to the sport. It appears only about half the events are being held each meet -- I can't see any rhyme or reason to which ones are held -- which ensures several of the stars will not be in attendance. Have they cut ticket prices in half to reflect the lessened entertainment? If TV is truly the driving force, why not contest all the events (it never was really all of them from meet to meet, was it?) and then package them however is most appropriate? Oh wait, I think I know the answer... Some people get to see the meets live, and the meet schedule actually affects the coverage. I seriously have a hard time picturing that challenge. Sad. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > What was with all the empty space in the standing room section at > Bislett? They say they want to tear down the sucker and build a new > stadium, but they can't even fill the old one now. Not even in it's > final year. > > I believe one big problem is that there are no big Norwegian stars. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
t-and-f: Athletics Home Page?
Does anyone know the new location of the Athletics Home Page, formerly located at: http://www.hkkk.fi/~niininen/athl.html ? I haven't found a new address for it (too common of a name to pull up anything but college athletics web sites in google), and I don't have a contact email, but Petri Niininen is/was the name of the site's owner. The site was a great resource for various nation's records, so I'm hoping it still exists somewhere. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: CanAm 2002 Concludes with Les Internationaux de Demi-Fond de Montreal II
First Webb, now Special K... Broe's been a bit off form this year. Nothing big from McMullen. If it weren't for Brannen having a good year, I'd be a bit worried that whole group had gotten malaria or something. Dan -- still smarting from the flogging I took for questioning Webb's decision to go to Michigan -- --- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What's the problem with Sully? He should be able to do repeats at that > pace. > > Michael Scott wrote: > > > CanAm 2002 Concludes with Les Internationaux de Demi-Fond de Montreal > II > > Canadian Olympian and national record holder Kevin Sullivan fell short > in > > his bid to claim a Commonwealth Games berth and had his hands full > > holding off his protogee Nathan Brannen. Sullivan took over the lead > with > > 500 remaining, while Brannen made a late charge and narrowly missed > > catching his mentor at the line, 3:43.58 to 3:43.64. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Erv Hunt-Stepping Down as Cal Coach
> From this morning's SF Chronicle sports page: > > Hunt said his decision to resign as coach was based on the changing > nature of today's student-athletes and the difficulty of fielding a > competitive team at Cal, the only school in the Pac-10 not fully > funded with scholarships for men's and women's track. Seems to me that one of the Pac-10 schools has *no* funding for men's and women's track, meaning Cal isn't exactly the only Pac-10 school not fully funded. Pac-9, maybe, but not Pac-10... As Cal alum Richie Boulet always loved to write in his conference predictions, OSU was the only team in the conference Cal didn't have to worry about losing to. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: RE: Johnson on the list
--- Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Johnson was caught breaking the rules That's highly debatable. 1) He wasn't caught when he was breaking the rules. 2) When he was caught, it appears to have been for rules he didn't break, or at least rules that weren't actually known rules at the time. That's not to say Ben wasn't guilty of cheating -- no question that he was -- but attempts to color it black and white (almost always an argument between US and international list members, by the way) is laughable at best. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: a note to my Canadian brethren
--- Kurt Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree that Ben received harsher punishment than most > other drug cheats. But he was a repeat offender The problem is, he received the harsh punishments before he had a chance to become a repeat offender. The repeat offenses merely made him a laughing stock. > the main problem I have from this and other > discussions are the repeated efforts by some (usually Canadians) to > rehabilitate Ben's marks. If we all agree he cheated, then why do we > keep bringing up his 9.79 as though it actually meant something? I can't speak for others, but I believe the prevailing opinion is that his marks were no less legit than most others regarded as valid. Some may call that unfounded cynicism or unhealthy spreading of rumors and accusations, but sports history has repeatedly proven that athletes of all nationalities will do whatever they can to get ahead. Ben was just one very notable example. Let me repeat, drug testing has absolutely no chance of ever benefitting the sport. We've all seen the negative side, and there's no evidence that a positive side has emerged as of yet. The best it can ever hope to accomplish is creating more and more distrust and advanced pharmacological practices. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Devers AOY Candidate?
Indeed it does. How about Guevarra in the 400? The performances are as good as anyone's put in the past couple of years, and she's now got the edge on Devers in terms of being unbeaten. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > see Zurich results > > (not that I'm a Radcliffe supporter, mind you- > but this leaves the women's AOY question rather > murky unless you put a lot of credence in XC > and road racing) > > RT > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com
Re: t-and-f: CU Head Coach Mark Wetmore Interview
http://www.mail-archive.com/t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu/msg04263.html Dan --- Bob Ramsak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wasn't on a turnip truck -- was out getting a plate of shrimp. > > I'm not necessarily doubting you or your "experience," but until you and > others who make such sweeping generalizations use more than one-liners > to defend your assumptions, well, then it really is nothing more than the > "idle speculation of amateurs." > > - Original Message - > From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Climb back on the turnip truck you fell off and watch for the bumps. > > This ain't the idle speculation of amateurs, kid. > > > > malmo = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com
RE: t-and-f: Peak age... Americans have it wrong?
--- "P.F.Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'd rather have my peak at 21 than 31 (and hey I did!). If you > are going to run a certain time in the end I'd rather not have > to spend an extra 10 years training to do it. Which raises the related question: Will a fast climb and early peak yield a higher overall level of performance than a more gradual and later peak? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances
It seems to me that the runners who drop XC from their schedule after college do better, not worse. Two notable examples that come to mind are Kevin Sullivan and Bernard Lagat. Both of them saw their careers blossom almost immediately upon being done with XC (Lagat had a season of eligibility left, as I recall). My opinion is that it isn't the HS/college system that holds runners back, rather the emphasis on 2-3 seasons (plus summer racing for the standouts) per year. Makes it tough to step up to the next level, as I'm sure Webb would agree after this past year. Dan --- Tim Willis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Everyone: > > I have long felt that one component that is lacking in a lot of post > college runners routines is cross-country training/racing. An athlete > spends 4-5 years of solid cross seasons every fall and then when they > leave college they never return to cross from a training or racing > standpoint. From my own experience, there are definite strength and > aerobic elements gained in cross that cannot be made up by other > standard > training and racing. I know a lot of our top runners have continued in > cross but the vast majority leave cross right out of college. > > I am just curious if cross or the lack of is a factor? > > Tim Willis > (770) 939-7669 > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances
I stand corrected. Let me rephrase that: After XC was de-emphasized from their schedule... Regina Jacobs has run one XC race that I know of each of the past two years, but I don't think many would consider that a season she is focusing on. Just guessing, but Sullivan would probably be in the same category. Besides, isn't this his least productive year since finishing college? Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Kevin and the IAAF might both be a little surprised that he dropped > cross from his schedule. Must have been an impostor at worlds last year. > http://www.iaaf.org/wxc01/results/data/M/XC/Rf.html > Regards, > Martin = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances
Good point. I can't think of any longer distance examples off hand that would refute or support either point. Maybe comparing the American 5k/10k men to the women would be of relevance, as it seems more of the men stick with XC seriously post-college and generally aren't as internationally competitive. Dan --- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > perhaps you and Tim Willis are both right: note that the guys you cite > are milers; what's good for them might not necessarily hold true for > 5/10 guys? > > > > From: Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:55:58 -0700 (PDT) > > To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances > > > > It seems to me that the runners who drop XC from their schedule after > > college do better, not worse. Two notable examples that come to mind > are > > Kevin Sullivan and Bernard Lagat. Both of them saw their careers > blossom > > almost immediately upon being done with XC (Lagat had a season of > > eligibility left, as I recall). > > > > My opinion is that it isn't the HS/college system that holds runners > back, > > rather the emphasis on 2-3 seasons (plus summer racing for the > standouts) > > per year. Makes it tough to step up to the next level, as I'm sure > Webb > > would agree after this past year.>> = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: my position on peak age for distances
I've actually never seen the 28-32 peak figure anywhere else. I've always heard mid to late 20's, with some people being able to hold their peak until their early 30's. That's not quite the same as peaking in the early 30's, mind you. Dan --- Michael Contopoulos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Regardless of the reasons, are we in agreement that most males reach > their physical peak between the ages of 23-28? Because if we all do, > I would be shocked. All I've ever heard was that I, as a male, won't > reach my physical peak as a runner until 28-32. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
--- James Tysell's anonymous friend wrote: > Anyone who says "anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am > intimately familiar, the errors are numerous" is just too arrogant for > his own good." You learn something new every day... I now know that knowledge and arrogance are the same thing! For what it's worth, I think Martin's quoted statement was 100% accurate. If there's any arrogance at play, it's on the part of the factually challenged journalist resenting being corrected. > I don't know the guy who wrote that story, but he's a Sacramento-based > freelancer who also seems to be an endurance athlete. He wrote some Tour > de France stories over the summer and apparently talked to Viren when he > was overseas. He's definitely not some "young kid." I believe he is a Runner's World editor, unless I have my articles mixed up. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: fast track gets faster
--- "Post, Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wilson Kipketer in 800m I thought I just read somewhere that he's done for the season? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: El Guerrouj's kick
--- Marco Velediaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > they wrote in 1998: "A combination of Coe's speed and either > Scott's (Steve) or Morceli's stamina suggests a sub-3:40 mile > time (and 3:22-3:23/1500 m)is definitely possible..." I haven't read Run With The Best, so maybe this is addressed (but from what I know of the theory behind it, I'm guessing it's only assumed): What makes them think it is *possible* to combine Coe's speed with the endurance of Scott or Morceli? I didn't know whe could just pick genetics here and there to build the perfect runner, although there is fear that's on the horizon... Why not take Greene's speed and Khannouchi's stamina?? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ---- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: GOOD track & field movies/books?
If you want to browse through all the running books and movies I have compiled, here's the link on Run-Down: http://run-down.com/index.php?cat_id=592 Click on Details for any you are interested in and it will show you Amazon user reviews (just added yesterday) and other somewhat pertinent info. Dan --- Lee Nichols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks for all the help I got in remembering the name of the > novel/movie "The Games." I noticed that most responders agreed that > it was pretty bad, both in written and film form, which got me > curious -- can anyone think of any truly good track & field movies or > books? = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I didn't question the validity of it under the rules. I just remarked > that I didn't think it could be accomplished without anticipation. That's not the same thing? Isn't "anticipating" against the rules? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- Jonas Mureika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, the point Wayne is trying to make is the following: > > Time Corrected - Reaction= > Greene 9.79 9.80 0.120(?) 9.68 > Tim 9.78 9.87 0.104 9.77 > > As you can see, the *actual* differential between the two times is > almost 0.1s! Tim's raw time is essentially equal to his "travel time", > whereas Greene's is much faster. That's all well and good, but where does it get us beyond mental gymnastics? Should we also analyze which of the two slowed down the quickest after the finish line in order to determine who's spikes provide the best braking in inclement weather? The point is, the start is part of the race and Tim ran the fastest legal time ever, taking all the current requirements into account. Had Maurice been in the race, he probably would have held true to recent form and run 10.1 to 10.2. And guess what? He would have done so under similarly perfect conditions to Tim!!! Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- Jonas Mureika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Many people fail to realize that some things weigh heavier than others. > The general consensus is: "there are so many factors at work, we can't > hope to account for them all, so it's pointless". Truth is: we don't > *have* to account for them all. That's how real science works. Ah yes, better to ignore what we can't account for. > I weigh the three major factors influencing sprint times as: (1) wind, > (2) altitude, and (3) temperature. The latter is the only one I haven't > accounted for, simply because there are added physiological factors > which are difficult to model. So, you're saying everyone responds to altitude the same? I know you already explained the height x width effect of wind varying little among athletes (although, I think it overlooked some pertinent points), but there's a huge mental variance in how athletes respond to windy conditions. Is that any more within an athlete's control than how they respond to altitude or temperature, both of which can be trained for? > These corrections don't account for how the > athlete feels, or what they had for breakfast, or how much sex and beer > they had the night before. Those considerations are simply irrelevant, > insofar as the big picture goes. Everyone does different things, which > make for different race preparation. But that's not what we're talking > about here: we're discussing environmental issues only. It's what we *should* be talking about, though, because the sum result of those factors far outweighs those of wind or altitude. The second half of Greene's season is the perfect illustration of that. > No one is saying that Greene, in *that* race, would run 9.77. I agree > that he would have run a sub-par time, assisted by a 2m/s wind -- but > that's his problem, not mine (or Tim's). That's side-stepping the point, though. You're saying wind and altitude play a huge role, yet you're ignoring an example in the same race where you admit they probably would not have been significant factors. If the exact same environmental constraints do not affect two athletes similarly, then how can we conclude they are major factors? That to me is real science... > The point is: was 9.78s the fastest "legal" race ever? Yes. > > Is the term "legal" well-founded and physically justifiable? No. That I would agree with, but to borrow your own words, that is hardly Tim's problem. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Had Maurice been in the race, he probably would have held > > true to recent form and run 10.1 to 10.2. And guess what? He > > would have done so under similarly perfect conditions to Tim!!! > > Yeh, well if Jesse Owens had been in the race, he'd never have > got to the finish line because he's dead. Nobody is comparing > Tim with the 2002 edition of Maurice Greene. The current edition > of Greene doesn't have much more chance of beating Tim than the > corpse of Owens. > > But you miss the point. Sorry Randy, but I believe you're the one missing the (my) point. It's not about time travelling to compare races, rather that the same person will have vastly different performances (up to half a second in a race decided by mere hundreths) from day to day, yet we are trying to explain away the *few* factors we can account for which have a minute overall effect. Sure, a strong tailwind is likely to help a sprinter run faster, but feeling less than perfect that day wil negate any such benefit and then some. Surely we have to "correct" for that, too? > Had their been a time warp and Greene had been lifted out of his > starting blocks in Athens in '99, and plopped down directly into > the starting blocks in Paris, what would his time have been? My guess is he wouldn't have run any faster, but that's just a guess. And no amount of correcting or adjusting will ever amount to any more than a guess, albeit a slightly educated one... > What would Greene's resulting time have been, given the additional > tail-wind and other factors? Would the '99 Greene have beaten > '02 Montgomery, given identical "perfect" conditions? The only > way to try to figure out the answer to that question is to try > to "normalize" the conditions between the two venues, based on > whatever information is at hand. Sure, if you ignore the fact that we have to, for lack of a less repetitive word, ignore the bulk of the data at hand in order to do so, then yeah, let's proceed with normalizing the conditions... Let's hear it for "real" science! Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- Jonas Mureika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It seems the point you're making is for a different case then the one > being considered. The point (at least of my research, and this > discussion) *is* to see how a particular race will vary with > environmental conditions -- not how a particular *athlete* will vary > from race to race. Sort of, but not quite. What I am trying to say is that the questions of "how a particular race will vary with environmental conditions" and "how a particular *athlete* will vary from race to race" are really one and the same. They are so heavily intertwined that I don't believe anything meaningful can be derived by trying to separate them. > Your guess is, to use your own words, not a very educated one, because > you refuse to recognize the physical laws governing the situation. No, I don't refuse to recognize it. I am fully aware of such laws, in fact. I just don't believe they're the most important thing at play here, and certainly not the most variable. > I can *calculate* the drag forces they > experience, and obtain a *calculated* estimate of the time difference > created. These are done using well-behaved and well-defined physical > laws. No magic guesswork involved. Ok, so how do you account for an athlete maintaining a longer drive phase or digging harder to fight a headwind vs. someone who does not change his or her race pattern? > No matter how the athlete "feels", there's no escaping those > effects. They are effectively no different from one > person to another -- everyone obeys the laws of physics! I see. So, I must have been imagining things when I ran a 4 second 800m PR on a super windy day, despite not feeling especially confident in the conditions or any fitter than usual. The fact that I followed a race plan to minimize the effect of the wind couldn't have had anything to do with it, could it? > "Real" science recognizes the limitations of a problem, and the reality > of what can be simulated, what can't, and what is important to the > outcome. If your definition of science tells us to ignore what cannot be accounted for, then my definition of logical thinking tells me to ask, what's the point? > The physical laws don't care how the athlete > feels, or how perpared they are going into the blocks Maybe they should... Have we bored everyone yet? :-) Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: anticipating and enjoyment
Combining a couple of parallel threads here... --- Kurt Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't think it exactly kills the sport, but it certainly detracts from > it. It detracts from the sport to have pretty much every World Record > followed by a "but," or a "however," as in say "Tim Montgomery > set a new world record of 9.78 seconds however, thanks to the presence > of favorable tailwind and a suspiciously fast reaction time, track > experts rate this performance as actually no better than the 15th best." I would agree with that. I would also add to it with rhetorical question. If people are so concerned with Montgomery's near-illegal reaction time of 0.104, why has no one objected to Bridgette Foster's 0.101 in the 100h? Could it be because she not only failed to break the WR, but also came in 2nd in the race? In other words, what Kurt is saying and what this example illustrates is that the more notable the performance, the more we try to pick it apart and discredit the accomplishment. In that light, the attitude being discussed certainly contributes to the "killing" of the sport. --- "Jones, Carleton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > However, because they can be calculated, > they are still interesting to factor out. I don't disagree with that. Where I have a problem is when an attempt is made to claim that those components can be factored out and leave us with something more meaningful than the base performance. As I see it, wind and altitude conversions can give us an *idea* how much an individual may have varied within a given race, but they cannot tell us with any certainy what performance level to predict from a given individual on any given day. That, to me, is mental gymnastics. > < phase or digging harder to fight a headwind vs. someone who does not > change his or her race pattern?>> > > You don't, of course. So? The wind still affects the race, we can > account for it, so why not do so? Well, it depends what the objective of doing so is. If we simply want to see what might have been, then no problem. If we want to diminish the importance of a performance on the basis of very incomplete statistical conversions, that that is a huge problem. > I think this is a common distance runner thing - we ascribe great > significance to effort, because in distance running it makes a big > difference. I don't think it makes nearly as much difference in > sprinting Actually, I spent the past 4 years coaching sprinters and consider myself much more sprint-minded than distance... :-) > I think sprinters usually get max performance out of their effort. > As such, I think there is much less variability in sprint performances > due to factors like 'effort', as opposed to wind, altitude, etc. I would have to disagree here. From my observations (highly unscientific, admittedly), sprinters are, on average, actually much less able to overcome effort related factors such as energy level, sleep, rest, muscle tension, etc. If you look at just the raw numbers, it may look minimal, but looking at percentages can show huge variance. > It's not that scientists ignore it, they just lump it with 'randomness'. > One always accounts for all of the variability one can, but there is > always randomness. As we learn more, we are able to seperate out and > account for more and more of the variation from that pool of randomness. Is any attempt being made to account for factors other than wind and altitude? It seems to me that all the statistical analysis is simply ignoring it as not possible to calculate and making the assumption that what we do know is good enough. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Montgomery on reaction time
It's an interesting idea, and one that's certainly more difficult to refute in light of Montgomery's WR run, but I think only certain athletes can excel with that sort of race pattern. Even Tim would probably be hard pressed to duplicate it with such flawless execution... Charlie Francis has some interesting things to say about how he approached Ben's training. Most pertinent to this discussion is his belief that everyone will slow down to some degree in the 100m, so the earlier you can hit top speed, the higher the speed you will be decelerating from and the better off you will be at the finish. This assumes a linear rate of deceleration, of course. There's also the matter of what race pattern might lead to the best speed maintenance, which is equally difficult to determine. Dan --- Ed and Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If Montgomery is to be believed that he had a poor start (and my viewing > of it yesterday does not bear that out), then possibly that is one of > many reasons for his great time - he didn't hit his top speed until > later in the race, so he decelerated least. I have often wondered if > perhaps the ideal 100m acceleration pattern is not to have the peak > speed be at 60-80 meters, but instead to be a sustained buildup with > the peak at 85-90 meters. It's a very difficult proposition to test, > but I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts on it. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ---- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
t-and-f: Fwd: Montgomery on reaction time
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Hi, Dan, > > You might remember that, a couple of months ago, I tried, in vain, to > post to > the t&f group, and that something in AOL and my settings was blocking my > access. Might I ask you to do me a favor, please. I'd like to post the > following to the group, and if you would be so kind as to send it > through, I'd very much appreciate it. > > Thanks. > > Don Schlesinger > > Two comments about Montgomery's less-than-perfect start: 1) As he > stated, a > "perfect" start is far from simply who moved first, as judged by > reaction > time. Now, it is clear that, if all the mechanics that follow are also > correct, it would best to react in .104, and not .184 (!), but there's > more > to the start than pushing off the pedal. So, by Montgomery's own > admission, > his initial thrust was not sufficiently horizontal, meaning, quite > simply, > that he didn't stay low enough long enough, thereby killing some of his > initial horizontal velocity. Indeed, he could have done better. > 2) Again, by his own admission -- and something I saw clearly in the > replay > -- he did a strange thing with his left arm, kind of stopping it, or > pulling > it back, right at the outset, rather than thrusting it vigorously > forward, in > one sweeping motion. But, what no one has mentioned so far was his > explanation as to WHY he did this. In his own words, he was quoted as > saying > that he thought the race was going to be called back! Now, I hate to > stir > the pot again, but it seemed pretty clear to me that no other competitor > > broke in the race (and, by the rules, Montgomery didn't, either), so why > do > you think Tim made that comment, unless a) he knew he had guessed, or > anticipated, the starter, and b) he thought he hadn't gotten away with > it, > and "flinched" ever so slightly at the start? As always, we'll never > know, > will we? > > Bottom line: A record isn't going to be broken in the rain, with the > wind > blowing in your face. It's going to be broken under ideal conditions > and > with a superb performance by an exceptional athlete. All of those > stipulations were met in Paris. Congratulations to Tim. My personal > opinion > is that he guessed, but the record was set under perfectly "normal" > circumstances, which is a lot more than we can say for the women's 100 > record! > > Don Schlesinger = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- Jonas Mureika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wind effects are not something you can train to overcome, and are not > something that a proper warmup will help you to avoid. I don't have to > go out and determine how each athlete will react differently to them, > because I know that they will each experience a drag force proportional > to their velocities and cross-sectional areas (which are *not* different > enough from one sprinter to another to change the calculations). It's a good thing you are so certain of what you know, otherwise you might feel compelled to question the conclusions... Care to explain away the situation I offered where an athlete might alter their drive phase in order to minimize wind resistance? If done properly, this could easily account for 40% of the race, which I would say is pretty darn significant. (For anyone wondering, a headwind would actually make it easier to maintain a longer drive phase, as it would keep you from falling forward.) On the flip side, a tall and/or wide sprinter might transition earlier and run taller in order to take advantage of a tailwind. Someone with good knee extension will also be likely to benefit more from the added extension to their stride. > Being a physics professor, I frequently get upset by the argument that > "wind affects are different for each sprinter", because this is the same > as saying "Some high jumpers excel more than others because they are > better at overcoming gravity"... I hope you don't really see those as being the same??? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A common misassumption made by people who do not understand the physics > behind the effects of wind (and altitude, for that matter) on sprint > times is that wind significantly effects the drive and acceleration > phases. I think you're disagreeing with me, but you're actually supporting the point I'm trying to make... Wind has less effect on the drive/acceleration phase than it does on the rest of the race, so that can be used advantageously to alter the effects of a headwind or tailwind. Thus, the wind adjustments may not be accurate in all cases, even if all else can somehow be held equal. > Running hunched over to reduce air resistance > would interfere with proper running mechanics and produce a > much greater loss of speed that could possibly be gained by > reducing cross sectional area in this manner. Altering one's drive phase and running hunched over are hardly the same thing. Maybe if your name is Marion Jones, but not for someone who knows what they're doing technically. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- Jonas Mureika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I never said my figures are absolute. If you read any of my papers, > you'd see that I am willing to admit limitations. Fair enough. > Since we're discussing pulling figures out of the air, I > would be interested in hearing how the effects you propose > will account for 40% of the race. Easy. Athletes typically train for a drive phase of around 30m, and with different resistance training techniques could push that anywhere from 20-40m, which means a lower cross sectional wind resistance can be obtained for up to 40% of the race (100m). If you do harness resistance work, you quickly see that you can hold perfect driving form for as long as your energy holds up and there is enough resisting you. > That's what I keep hearing when people say "Wind affects different > people differently", as if they can train to overcome drag forces. I don't think you can train to overcome wind effects, other than mental training to not be thrown off by it and to maintain maximum effort. Maybe a little bit in terms of increasing leg strength for better balance to handle cross winds and what not... But I know of no one has put on a speed suit or body suit for a race and not felt it made them faster. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: why we have wind rules
Jonas, I don't think anyone is in disagreement that there should be wind limits for what is a record-worthy mark. However, that is an entirely different topic than the accuracy or relevance of the actual conversions, which is what most of this debate has centered around. Furthermore, let me say that I am not questioning Jonas' work, per se. It looks to be as comprehensive as any other attempts at such, and I imagine Jonas is considered quite brilliant in the field. Having said that, I am bothered by how similar many aspects of this thread are to those involving Jon Entine (probably the most villified member in the history of the t-and-f list, for those who weren't around at the time): - the "defendant" is well respected within the field and quite knowledgable - real science is regularly referred to by the "defendant" - despite having done some of the most exhaustive research on the topic, it becomes apparent the "defendant" has, either by choice or by necessity, ignored large pools of data that do not fit the model - in each case, the model seems to be based on and rely on being applied to generalities, not individuals, yet the conclusions of it invariably get applied to ... you guessed it, individuals! - when given examples of where the model breaks down, no direct responses are forthcoming... Dan --- Jonas Mureika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > To quote, well, me (from a journal article): > > "Americans Leonard Scott and William Snoddy have posted marks of 9.83s > (+7.1m/s) and 9.87s (+11.2m/s) respectively, yet neither has ever run > another such remarkable time. Using the corrections for world class > races, Snoddy's 9.87s would correct at least to a pedestrian 10.21s, > while Scott's clocking would round to about 10.12s..." > > That's why we should have correction techniques. It may not be seen as > fair to some, but it's probably just as fair as lumping a +2.0m/s Mexico > City race with a -4.0m/s Athens race.. or a +2.0m/s 9.78 WR with a > +0.1m/s 9.79WR. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
I'll venture a guess... Different scenarios. The marathon example is more like deciding what a legal wind assistance cutoff should be -- is the pacing by men outside the rules? No attempt is being made (that I can see) to convert an assisted time to an unassisted one or vice versa, just to decide if the assisted one counts as a record. Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nah. We never compare distance results. Some postings to this list. Why > didn't people that are all upset by the 100 analysis also come leaping to > Ndereba's defence. Radcliffe was nine seconds slower. Shouldn't that be > the end of the discussion? > Regards, > Martin > > "Her time of 2:18.56 was > hailed as the greatest performance ever in marathon history " > > "That this record survived should take nothing away > from Radcliffe's outstanding 2:18:55 effort, in a women-only race it > must > be an intrinsically superior performance." > > "Paula Radcliffe erased every > women's Marathon record on the books bar Catherine Ndereba's 2:18:47 > which, > HOWEVER, was set in a mixed race at Chicago." > > "Only Kenya's Catherine Ndereba had ever run faster than Radcliffe when > she > clocked 2:18.47 in Chicago last year, but that was in a mixed race where > she > was paced by men and so the London organisers are recognising > Radcliffe's > time as a women's world record." > > > > Richard McCann wrote: > > > As another post said, we don't try to make similar > > comparisons between distance races where varying conditions have > > substantial influence. > > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But using the arguments already made about conditions impacting people > in different ways, some people are better front runners and run better > without the company. An attempt is being made here to determine which > performance is superior using just one criteria. >From the old quotes you provided, there is some attempt made at ranking the performances, but that appeared a distant second in priority to deciding which one fits the requirements for record consideration. There was no such issue with Montgomery's 100m. If the pack/front running argument is to be seen the same as external conditions on the track not accounted for by rules or conversions, then we have to take a step back and change rules already in place, such as pacing in championship races. That would seem to make it an inconcongrous comparison... Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: The Greatest Ever....
That article of Justin's was also planned for use in a ceremony presentation to Bob about this time last year, but I don't remember the specifics or if it actually ended up being used. Dan --- Kurt Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With the passing of Bob Hayes, I'm reposting Justin Clouder's analysis > from 1997. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Devil's advocate
--- "Mccarthy, Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > if you are a Lydiard devote, as I am, you know that development of > endurance is the key to middle distance and distance running success. > > So, with the Chicago Marathon, and Alan looking for some "news", why not > have Alan "sign-up" to run Chicago, if he were trained in an endurance > enhancing system. ... Of course, the problem is that he probably is > not running more than 70 miles a week As I understand it, that's precisely why he left Michigan. Too much emphasis on 80-100 mile weeks, which wasn't working for him any better than the rest of that post-collegiate group, all of which appear to have been injured this past year. Is Kevin still on the list? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: lassiter's trip
--- "Michael J. Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is no different than arranging the judging in skating. That's going a bit overboard... It was stupid and not in the spirit of team competition, but it hardly rigged the outcome. As has often been said in defence of ElG's rabbit help in the past, Lagat wasn't the only one permitted to benefit from the pacing. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: thin sprinters
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Now Tim Montgomery (5'10", 155 lbs, according to his USATF bio) > has the world record, even though from his height and weight you > might guess he was a distance runner. Does TM have an unusually > slender physique for a world class 100-meter man, or am I merely > the last to notice that sprinters are getting thinner? The HSI and Charlie Francis model of success suggests the ideal sprinter would be between 5'9" and 5'10", 165 to 175 pounds. Tim was recently listed somewhere as 5'9" and 160 pounds, so that's pretty close to the "norm." On paper, I've got the perfect build! :-) Looking at world class sprinters on TV, you'd think they're 200+ pounds based on their physiques. When viewed in person, I'm always surprised at just how compact they are. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Bob Hayes's 8.6 (LONG)
--- David Lesley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The movie "Tokyo Olympiad", directed by the famous director > Kon Ichikawa is widely available on VHS. I haven't looked up > the relay footage yet. It may not be suitable > for timing, but I know that the race is covered. It's also available on DVD from the highly regarded (and big $$$) Criterion Collection. If the race is shown in its entirety, the digital format may lend itself well to figuring an accurate split. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
Wayne, Ignoring all the physics (which don't exactly appeal to me and don't really address the question of differing wind conditions), two related pieces stand out as begging comment: > Since the runner will have the best time the earlier he reaches maximum > speed, he will have the best time the sooner he becomes erect. If all your formulas reach such a conclusion, then I suppose an upright standing start would be ideal? > I watched the Seoul men's 100 with a sprinter that I coached, > taping the race. My athlete commented "Look, Ben stood straight > up at the start. Why do you always want me to stay lower?" We > played the tape back and my athlete was right, the drug-aided Ben > Johnson did indeed become nearly erect in two steps. Did you point out to your athlete that no one else in history has ever been able to duplicate Ben's start (that I'm aware of)? Most people would fall flat on their face if they tried setting their blocks like him, too. What worked for Ben would work for very few others, so I'm afraid that isn't a very relevant example. Dan --- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wanted to reply to this post a long time ago, but was rather busy last > week. Everyone is trying to get their track striped this time of year! > > The runner really can't nor does he want to extend length of his drive > phase. The drive phase continues only as long as the runner continues > to > accelerate, and the angle that his center of mass makes with the ground > depends on his rate of acceleration. If the runner is to remain in > balance - > the only way he can continue to apply force - the angle that the > runner's cm > makes with the track for a particular step is given by A = arctan(g/a), > where > a is the average acceleration during that step and g is the acceleration > due > to gravity. This neglects air resistance which will require a slight > forward > lean at maximum speed. Note that the angle with respect to the ground > is a > minimum at the start, where acceleration is a maximum, and zero at > maximum > speed (neglecting air resistance) where by definition acceleration in > zero. > Since the runner will have the best time the earlier he reaches maximum > speed, he will have the best time the sooner he becomes erect. > > An example: I watched the Seoul men's 100 with a sprinter that I > coached, > taping the race. My athlete commented "Look, Ben stood straight up at > the > start. Why do you always want me to stay lower?" We played the tape > back > and my athlete was right, the drug-aided Ben Johnson did indeed become > nearly > erect in two steps. However, I pointed out that on his first step he > was > nearly horizontal with the ground! He was following the relationship > given > above but his acceleration was so great on his first step, as indicated > by > his flat angle with the ground, that he was virtually at top speed after > two > steps and hence was running erect from that point. > > Dan Kaplan wrote: > > > --- Jonas Mureika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I never said my figures are absolute. If you read any of my papers, > > > you'd see that I am willing to admit limitations. > > > > Fair enough. > > > > > Since we're discussing pulling figures out of the air, I > > > would be interested in hearing how the effects you propose > > > will account for 40% of the race. > > > > Easy. Athletes typically train for a drive phase of around 30m, and > with > > different resistance training techniques could push that anywhere from > > 20-40m, which means a lower cross sectional wind resistance can be > > obtained for up to 40% of the race (100m). If you do harness > resistance > > work, you quickly see that you can hold perfect driving form for as > long > > as your energy holds up and there is enough resisting you. > > > > > That's what I keep hearing when people say "Wind affects different > > > people differently", as if they can train to overcome drag forces. > > > > I don't think you can train to overcome wind effects, other than > mental > > training to not be thrown off by it and to maintain maximum effort. > Maybe > > a little bit in terms of increasing leg strength for better balance to > > handle cross winds and what not... But I know of no one has put on a > > speed suit or body suit for a race and not felt it made them faster. > > > > Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ignore the physics? As if runners don't have to obey the laws of > physics? Wayne, As I pointed out to you and Jonas in my off-list reply to his message to the two of us (that got really complicated in a hurry to explain), I did not mean to say the physics should or could be ignored, just that I did not care to address the technical talk. That's along the lines of the jokes of how you can tell a Microsoft employee -- their answer is technically correct but tells you nothing of use... > If you think that what I said implies that an upright start would be > ideal, read it again. A truly upright start would correspond to zero > acceleration, hardly ideal. Gee, I wonder where I could have gotten that idea from? "he will have the best time the sooner he becomes erect." > Of course I pointed it out to my athlete that I didn't think that he > could duplicate Ben's start. My man had the horse before the cart. Ben > didn't start as fast as he did because he became erect early, he became > erect early because his initial acceleration was so great. I'm relieved to know that you addressed that with your athlete, but I'm left wondering why you used it as an example then... Wasn't your point that getting upright as soon as possible equates to maximum speed? Yet, you agree that only one human in history is known to have been able to accomplish that particular feat, so it tells us very little about what is best for the "average" sprinter. Dan > Dan Kaplan wrote: > > > Wayne, > > > > Ignoring all the physics (which don't exactly appeal to me and don't > > really address the question of differing wind conditions), two related > > pieces stand out as begging comment: > > > > > Since the runner will have the best time the earlier he reaches > maximum > > > speed, he will have the best time the sooner he becomes erect. > > > > If all your formulas reach such a conclusion, then I suppose an > upright > > standing start would be ideal? > > > > > I watched the Seoul men's 100 with a sprinter that I coached, > > > taping the race. My athlete commented "Look, Ben stood straight > > > up at the start. Why do you always want me to stay lower?" We > > > played the tape back and my athlete was right, the drug-aided Ben > > > Johnson did indeed become nearly erect in two steps. > > > > Did you point out to your athlete that no one else in history has ever > > been able to duplicate Ben's start (that I'm aware of)? Most people > would > > fall flat on their face if they tried setting their blocks like him, > too. > > What worked for Ben would work for very few others, so I'm afraid that > > isn't a very relevant example. > > > > Dan > > > > --- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I wanted to reply to this post a long time ago, but was rather busy > last > > > week. Everyone is trying to get their track striped this time of > year! > > > > > > The runner really can't nor does he want to extend length of his > drive > > > phase. The drive phase continues only as long as the runner > continues > > > to > > > accelerate, and the angle that his center of mass makes with the > ground > > > depends on his rate of acceleration. If the runner is to remain in > > > balance - > > > the only way he can continue to apply force - the angle that the > > > runner's cm > > > makes with the track for a particular step is given by A = > arctan(g/a), > > > where > > > a is the average acceleration during that step and g is the > acceleration > > > due > > > to gravity. This neglects air resistance which will require a > slight > > > forward > > > lean at maximum speed. Note that the angle with respect to the > ground > > > is a > > > minimum at the start, where acceleration is a maximum, and zero at > > > maximum > > > speed (neglecting air resistance) where by definition acceleration > in > > > zero. > > > Since the runner will have the best time the earlier he reaches > maximum > > > speed, he will have the best time the sooner he becomes erect. > > > > > > An example: I watched the Seoul men's 100 with a sprinter that I > > > coached, > > > taping the race. My athlete commented "Look, Ben stood straight up > at > > > the > > > start. Why do you always want me to st
Re: t-and-f: Anticipating the Gun (was Assertions)
--- "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You have cause and effect confused, just like my athlete did. Maybe, but I'm only quoting what you said... Again: "he will have the best time the sooner he becomes erect." Sure sounds like you were saying the only thing affecting a good time is being upright as soon as possible. > There is a precise relationship between acceleration and the angle of > the center of mass. Johnson became erect quickly because of his high > rate of acceleration. He would have had the best time the sooner he > became erect only because that corresponded to the highest acceleration. That is, of course, assuming that the rapid rate of acceleration would not lead to an even more rapid rate of burnout late in the race. For many athletes, that probably would not be true. So, as precise as that relationship may be, it doesn't tell us much about the final outcome, only one component of it. To be honest, I have no idea what cause and effect relationship you think I have mixed up... As I recall, you brought up the Ben Johnson point in response to my saying an athlete could adjust his or her drive phase to account for wind differences. A tailwind would offer the most benefit if upright early, and a headwind would favor staying low as long as possible. Maybe it's my inability to understand cause and effect, but I don't see any connection between the two lines of thought. Furthermore, your message to Gerald said something along the lines of a tailwind technically still being a retarding motion. Sure, but that adds about as much to the conversation as the oft-reported blurbs about Nike losing money for the past several years, whereas it was really just their profit rate that was down. A tailwind may still have a retarding motion, but it is *less* of a retarding motion than a headwind would have. I worry very much about the logic of any case made with lots of formulas and that ignores something like that... Oh wait, it's me who is ignoring the science. My bad. Blinded by numbers... Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: kHANNOUCHI - WORLD CHAMPS/OLYMPICS
Remember Edmonton? KK sounds (or has sounded) like he very much wants to represent the US internationally, but I'm not sure how fond he is of championship racing after his last WC attempt... Dan --- jim mclatchie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Khannouchi has proved numerous times (sic) that he can win when the > dollars are placed on the table. > What is the betting that he will run for the USA in the World Champs or > show up for the Olympic Trials Maybe Masback and co. can come up > with an incentive!! > How much money is USATF going to be spending on developing a few more > like Khannouchi or do we just import them??? = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: USATF News & Notes - 10/18/02
--- USATF Communications <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... Tim Montgomery and Khalid Khannouchi are among the top > 10 male ... athletes of the year worldwide, as announced Friday > by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF). > > Among the men were British triple jumper Jonathan Edwards, Hungarian > hammer thrower Robert Fazekas, Greek 200m runner Konstadinos Kederis, > Danish 800m runner Wilson Kipketer, Polish walker Robert Korzeniowski, > Dominican 400m hurdler Felix Sanchez and Czech decathlete Roman Seberle. I count 9. I assume El Guerrouj is the tenth? I don't see anything highlighted on the IAAF site to confirm, but I can't imagine he wouldn't be in the group. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Once a Runner!! - If you have it, guard it!!
Why do I get the feeling we're going to suddenly see a few hundred copies of Once A Runner listed on eBay? Good book, but I doubt there are many here who would be unwilling to sell their copy for over $100, myself included. Interesting to note that two copies are listed on eBay currently with different sellers, the second of which used the exact same product description as the first... I don't know when it went out of print, but it was still listed on Amazon for $10-15 as of maybe 2 months ago. I guess I should've bought a few dozen copies. :-( Dan --- Matt Stohl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A few years back, I read one of my favorite books, Once a Runner, and > passed > it along to a cross country teammate to read. So, I graduated and moved > to > another state without ever thinking about asking for the book back. > > Then there was the thread on this list about good running books. So I > decided I would like to read the book again. I go to a couple of > bookstores > . . . no copies. I get online . . . no copies. Go to Ebay . . . they > have > a copy for $125.00! I go to Amazon.com . . . they have a copy > $275.00! What the F@#$ is going on?!?!?!? > > If you have a copy, protect it with your life. If you don't have a copy > > (like myself), well, you are screwed. > > Just had to share. > > Matt Stohl > > > > > > > _ > Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Jabbour is the future: was Letter...NYC mara... coverage
No offense to Mr. Jabbour, but I'm amazed anyone thinks the time is remotely near for webcasts to take the place of televised events. The present technology is borderline bearable, and that's with a [presumably] relatively miniscule number of people trying to watch. Who really believes servers are prepared to handle millions of simultaneous high bandwidth streaming audio/video requests? And of those who believe it can be done, who believes the modest budget of running events can afford the technology??? Unless someone figures out a good subscription model of internet revenue and makes it affordable to the small to medium sized sites, I just don't see it becoming much more than a niche market that is unlikely to become profitable. Dan --- Bob Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tom Derderian wrote: > > TV is dead. Webcast is the future. > Most webcasts have mediocre picture quality although I have seen a few > with > pretty good pictures, assuming that you have a high speed connection. > The > poor quality ones are a chore to watch and the low quality really shows > through when the subjects are in fast motion. For example, I tried to > watch > some of the European Championships on the BBC web site and it was > frustrating. The technology is there if it gets applied correctly, > though. > Hopefully, more people will acquire high speed connections so that they > can > make the most of the medium. > > Maybe USATF should try doing something along these lines with domestic > meets. It would be nice to even employ multiple streams, so that you > could > go to a web page and select which event that you wished to follow. > > bob > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Even RARER books for sale
And I thought it was in reference to the recent Once A Runner thread... Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think he was just kidding. > Regards, > Martin > > Scott Davis wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Heidenstrom, > > > > I was quite disappointed to get this message from you. First, I need > to > > correct your information. You are incorrect when you say that Archie > > signed all of his books. This is completely flase. In fact, of the > > some odd 40-50 of his books that I have bought and sold over the > years, > > at least 75% of them were NOT signed. Also, your statement about the > > 1959 edition is not right. I currently have two of the copies and you > > claim to have a third; I would be interested in hearing from the other > > TWO people who own a copy. The book is quite scarce but there are > more > > than five available, I assure you. > > > > I am quite offened by your statement which indicates you will not sell > > to scalpers, implying that I may be one. You should know that I have > > bought and sold some of the largest libraries and collections > available > > in the US and world wide over the past 25 years, including the Amos > > Alonzo Stagg collection, the Maxwell Stiles collection and the > holdings > > from the Robert Kaiser estate. I am well familar with the scarcity of > > certain items and their associated value. I sell material to true > track > > fans at very reasonable prices. I have always worked on the theory > that > > if I can buy something at a very reasonable price then I will sell it > at > > a very reasonable price. As an example, and I have not yet advertised > > this book, I have a copy from Don's collection of the 1912 Swedish > > Olympic report. This is a scarce book to say the least. I purchased > > my copy of this book in Stockholm some years back for 350 US dollars. > > It is well worth 500-600 US dollars at this time. However, I will > sell > > Don's copy some day for right around 150-200 US dollars once I find a > > fan who is truly interested in having the copy once owned by the > > maestro. > > > > Again, regarding the Potts material, you should know that I am trying > to > > place as many of these of these items in the hands of true track fans > > who appreciate the fact that they were once owned by Don. The money > is > > going to the Potts family, not to me. I am taking only my expenses > for > > postage and shipping cartons. And I am putting very low prices on > these > > items for those very reasons. If you want to sell your copies of the > > Little Black Book for a penny each, that is totally up to you. But > your > > implications of what I am trying to do with Don's copies are simply > > unacceptable. > > > > Finally, since you are a former ATFS member and someone who knew Don, > I > > am saddened that you would think I would dishonor his memory by > selling > > off his material for his family at "scalpers" prices. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Scott Davis > > Secretary General - ATFS, President - FAST > > > > P N Heidenstrom wrote: > > > > > FOR SALE > > > > > > Archie's Little Black Book, 1953 Edition - S, XF, 100 pgs., > > > RARE (signed by Archie - which he did for every copy sold). > > > New price $1.00 > > > AND > > > Archie's Little Black Book, 1959 Edition - S, XF. 90 pgs.THIS > > > COPY IS NOT MERELY RARE, BUT UNIQUE AND PRICELESS - > > > being a pre-release copy, signed person-to-person by Archie, > > > with his messages of thanks, plus in-text acknowledgements. > > > World-wide, a maximum of five such copies were ever issued. > > > Original price $1.00. > > > > > > ELSEWHERE PRICED AT $50. > > > > > > My price $0.02 (one cent each) for anybody who cares to pay the > > > postage from New Zealand. > > > > > > Apply off-line. First come, first served. > > > > > > This is a genuine offer for genuine fans - > > > NO SCALPERS PLEASE. > > > > > > WHY PAY $50 ? ? ? > > > > > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: Fwd: Lady marathoner dies
Obeying all but the last request... --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I'm not a subscriber to the T&F chatlist but I examine its archive > weekly and read messages with interesting subject lines. The subject > does not always reflect the actual message content, and the archive > omits some list posts, so forgive me if the following has already > appeared. > > At the Marine Corps Marathon on 27 Oct 2002 in Washington (D.C.) a > female competitor stopped at about 21 miles to seek medical help and was > taken by ambulance to a nearby hospital. She died two days later, > according to the Washington Post -- which identified her as Hilary > Bellamy, age 35. > > While doing some minor volunteer service at this marathon, I saw > ambulances heading toward the 21-mile mark but I did not then know how > serious the incident was. Because T&F list subscribers have in the past > discussed other deaths in athletics (e.g. pole vault) they may > appreciate your sharing this news item. There is no need to credit or > mention me as a source. > > James Fields > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ---- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Track rules (was: banned high jump technique)
If the 400 has proven capable of being highly entertaining in a relay setting, why not stick with the distance and just run it with a waterfall start? It works for the 800. If you increase the 400 by 25%, you're getting far enough away from sprint territory that you'll basically end up with a short 800. That's basically twice as far as anyone can sprint for, so I don't see it appealing to too many people. Dan --- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've long been an advocate of the 500, mainly because it would make for > a long sprint that's actually exciting. There's nothing more thrilling > than > watching guys duelling down the backstretch at high speed in a 4x4, but > when you put them in lanes it sucks just about every last bit of thrill > out of it. I'd love to see 400s run from a waterfall start (roller derby > lives!) but since the death toll would be unacceptable, that's why the > 500 is so appealing. > > Put everybody at the 100 start (no blocks) at a bit of a tangent and let > them break for the pole at the end of the straight. Then you get a > kick-ass 400 run out of lane 1. > > It would also be a terrific event numerologically, with the 1-minute > barrier being a great marker for international-class running. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Re: t-and-f: Track rules (was: banned high jump technique)
Sorry, I mis-phrased what I meant to say. I don't like waterfall starts on the turn... I was thinking 1-turn stagger with a 100m break line like the 800, making for 300m run without lanes. Dan > > If the 400 has proven capable of being highly entertaining in a relay > > setting, why not stick with the distance and just run it with a > > waterfall start? It works for the 800.>> > > Or, like a big-league 800, run the first curve in lanes, break at the > top of the stretch. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Re: t-and-f: Track rules (was: banned high jump technique)
> Or could ignore the common finishline and run it center-to-center, > giving you 50m of straightaway before the break. I know a coach who sets up all his intervals that way. He says he likes it because it makes it easier to get from one side of the track to the other for calling out splits. Not sure how that equates to spectating enjoyment, though. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @ o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
re: t-and-f: d3 xc results
--- "Michael J. Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Am I missing something?? There is no tie for 8th place. B-W beats > Elmhurst on the 6th place finisher, in fact all 7 were in before the 5 > from Elmhurst. As I've heard it explained, NCAA rules state that ties are never broken unless it is for qualifying purposes. I believe that also includes Championship meets. The 6th runner tie breaker deal seems to be a carry-over from high school that few people realize doesn't exist in the college rule books... Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: T&FN names AOYs
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Reasonable results, but Feofanova getting fewer votes (by far!) > than Guevara, who may have beaten everybody but running not terribly > impressive 400s, whereas feofanova was much better qualitatively ... When is the last time a female 400m runner posted a better sequence of marks and went undefeated in the process? > ... shows that a certain American bias > still exists when the panel votes. Last I checked, Guevara is no more of an American than I am. If there's any bias in this country, it's *against* Mexico, not in favor of it. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: T&FN names AOYs
While that may be technically correct, I doubt you'll find many people who would support the view that "American" refers to anything other than a citizen of the United States. Nice try, though. :-) Dan --- Uri Goldbourt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > American, my friend, is anyone living in the continentes of North an > South America, not just the USA. > === > - Original Message - > From: "Dan Kaplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 4:25 PM > Subject: Re: t-and-f: T&FN names AOYs > > > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Reasonable results, but Feofanova getting fewer votes (by far!) > > > than Guevara, who may have beaten everybody but running not terribly > > > impressive 400s, whereas feofanova was much better qualitatively ... > > > > When is the last time a female 400m runner posted a better sequence of > > marks and went undefeated in the process? > > > > > ... shows that a certain American bias > > > still exists when the panel votes. > > > > Last I checked, Guevara is no more of an American than I am. If > there's > > any bias in this country, it's *against* Mexico, not in favor of it. > > > > Dan > > > > = > > http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. > > http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F > > > > @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) > > _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax > >/ / > > > > __ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: FW: April Fool's day at USATF Convention
Whoa... Has anyone mentioned FATSU yet? Sort of appropriate, being a fatso USATF mascot... Dan --- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This defies belief. Go to www.usatf.org and check out the right-hand > side of the home page. > > I think this was an early reject in the contest that "Whatzit" won in > '92 for Atlanta. > > The Apocalypse is upon us... > > > gh > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Fwd: Reuters Francis Refuses Comment on Reported Link with Jones
> LONDON (Reuters) ... Francis told Reuters from his home in Toronto > that he never commented about anybody he coached in any sport. Someone else must've written his two books, then. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Deena doubts move by MJ
Also, rumor has it that Francis has been involved with Montgomery's
coaching for some time now, so this may well be a natural progression of
the situation. Tim has a major breakthrough the past two seasons, so
Marion wants a bit of what he's got (on the track, strictly speaking) and
he wants even more of it.
Dan
--- John Hunter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok...I'm in...I've been biting my tounge all week on this...
>
> Why should any coach feel snubbed? If Marion and Tim are trying to
> compete
> at levels never previously achieved, that has NOTHING to do with
> "snubbing"
> a coach that lives in the US. This is not about patriotism (btw, I'm a
> US
> citizen). It's about 2 of the best athletes on the planet making a
> proactive choice about their training (regardless of if "we" agree or
> not).
>
> Quite honestly, I find it humorous that so much handwringing is occuring
>
> over the Jones/Montgomery coaching change. The point is this: If Marion
>
> and/or Tim lost confidence in their coaching situation and training
> (regardless of Trevor's success with them), then they would have lost a
> crucial mental edge that is vital, if not mandatory, when performing at
> the
> highest level of our sport. The moment that confidence was lost, it was
> a
> done deal.
>
> Yes, the choice will make people ask questions, but I doubt that two
> athletes with as much at stake as Marion and Tim would've made a hasty
> decision. They are well aware of what they are doing. I also think it
> is
> unfair to prematurely "taint" Marion's and Tim's integrity (without
> cause
> and/or evidence) as athletes because of their choice of coach. That is
> just
> so "knee-jerk" and easy.
>
> Merry Christmas.
>
> JJ Hunter (no relation to CJ)
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ("Martin J. Dixon")
> >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Deena doubts move by MJ
> >Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:26:50 -0500
> >
> >Good comments from Martin, eh?
> >
> >One question I'd like to see someone address is:
> >
> >What do American track coaches think about two Americans having to go
> to
> >Canada for needed expertise?
> >
> >Not that Canada doesn't have coaching talent, but it IS a little far
> from
> >North Carolina. Wish someone would talk to Tellez, John Smith, etc. (or
>
> >Randy Huntington for the jumps).
> >
> >Any coaches on the List feel USA is being snubbed?
> >
> >Ken Stone
> >http://www.masterstrack.com
>
>
> _
> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*.
>
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>
>
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>
=
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Re: t-and-f: "Call to axe Jones, Montgomery tour"
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Yet there are several coaches with excellent credentials > for the bio-mechanical analysis that MJ says she's looking > for. Why pick one with such a bad rap? If you were in her shoes, wouldn't you want to work with the absolute best? When you're chasing some of the toughest records in the sport, a merely excellent coach may not be enough to get there. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: yelling at runners (was: favortie sport...)
--- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This sounds so crazy I think I must be making it up, but did I read > somewhere once (urban myth?) that there's some kind of "inherent > targeting mechanism" in the brain that actually leads drivers in > certain cases to swerve towards people (not just runners) on the side > of the road? Not with any malice; sort of a can't-help-it thing. It's common knowledge in mountain biking that if you look at the rock you're trying to avoid, you'll hit it regardless. The same holds true for most anything: Look at it and you will unintentionally veer that direction. In the case of runners on the side of the road (I agree with Kurt Bray's assessment), we really are a novelty to much of the population. As such, it's only natural that people will look over and veer toward said runners whether or not they mean harm. I would also add that I've received all sorts of heckling and profanities pretty much everywhere I've run, with the major exception being Vancouver, B.C. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ---- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: yelling at runners (was: favortie sport...)
--- Mike Prizy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If I'm "invisible," I'm not a target. That theory didn't work too well for Frodo in Part 1... Dan > John Lunn wrote: > > > Mike, > > Help me here. > > > > > A runner should find "a route farther away from auto traffic"and > further away from "country roads" where > > the senior set wants to make you "dead right"? And you have preferred > to run at night with dark clothes > > on > > > so that you can be an invisible moving target? > > > > > I take it that this plan has worked well for you. > > JL > > > > Mike Prizy wrote: > > > > > But why be dead right? If special clothing has to be worn with the > intent of being seen by drivers, > > > then maybe a route farther away from auto traffic needs to be found. > I think bright clothing gives > > > some runners a false sense of security. > > > > > > Having grown up in the South Suburbs of Chicago, I've had numerous > run ins with cars and > > > pedestrians. While in college, I was surprised at the number of run > ins I had on country roads - not > > > just with aggressive car loads of teenagers - but from the grandmas > and grandpas who wouldn't yell > > > or throw anything at us, but seemed set on making me/us dead right. > > > > > > For the last 20 years, most of my runs have been in the evening and > in the dark, particularly in the > > > winter months. People ask me if I ware reflective tape or material > on my running gear. I tell them no, because I don't want to be a visible > > > moving target. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: A Brit weighs in
--- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But however much she wins in the future, there is one aspect > where the sprinter will never be mentioned in the same breath > as Radcliffe. Integrity" The author conveniently ignored one of the recently quoted Francis sentiments: "If anyone is clean, it's going to be the losers," he said. "The irony becomes that in order for an athlete to be an anti-doping advocate he must be ... on drugs. "I don't see any other possibility because you have a situation where you have a choice to either break the rules or lose." Believe what you want... Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
t-and-f: mascot theft
Some of you may already be aware of this, but in light of USATF's mascot borrowing and upcoming name finalization, we at Run-Down have chosen to give it an honorary 3rd home (for the second time): http://run-down.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1032 If you haven't gotten tired of ripping on the furball, feel free to chime in to that thread. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @ o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Mascot
You left out one important detail: Was the mascot you saw last night anywhere near as hideous as the one USATF was given? If not, then I beg to differ with, "If they really were able to get it for free, its even better, as there will only be a gain financially from it." That overlooks the possibility that USATF could actually be hurt financially from it if it makes a joke of the sport and drives some fans away without attracting others... How much revenue does USATF draw from children in the form of spectators??? Is there any market research that indicates youth participation will actually go up as a result of mascots? Dan --- "Michael J. Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To back Jill up on this one, they have the right idea on the Mascot, no > matter how sick it turns your stomach. While attending a college > basketball game last night, the school's Mascot entered the stands. One > > large section was devoted to a local CYO girls team that played during > halftime. Those kids spent a good 10 minutes of the 2nd half playing > with the Mascot and enjoying themselves at a game that would have held > no memory or meaning at that point (other than the halftime game) as the > > home team was getting killed. These kids will come home from that game > with a good memory of a fun experience, one the college game could not > provide. This is the point of the Mascot, whatever they decide to call > him/her/it. If they really were able to get it for free, its even > better, as there will only be a gain financially from it. One question, > > will the Indy staff be taking turns inside the costume?? If so, I > assume James will be exempt! > > MJR > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Mascot
I replied in private to Steve, but I see his response was also addressed to the list, so I will repeat my question to him. Should I be familiar with the Philly Phanatic? I'm guessing baseball? At any rate, my point still stands about first having to show that mascots (any mascot, let alone a butt ugly one) have a *positive* effect on finances. I know a lot of people will point to the Big 3 pro sports and their heavy use of mascots, but I'm not so sure that's a valid argument. Staying close to home, look at the Portland Trail Blazers. They have gone years without a mascot (they had some hill billy sasquatch thing back in the 80's that I'm not sure would count as a mascot), yet they've been among the most profitable NBA franchises and last I saw were something like the 2nd or 3rd most profitable franchise in all of pro sports. (As an aside, this is yet one more reason why I believe most journalists are non-thought capable idiots. They love to harp on the Blazers huge payroll, but they never bother to mention that they typically earn more money on that investment than teams with half the payroll. Simple arithmetic.) Going a step further, the Blazers decided to add a mascot -- a very ugly and heavily ridiculed one, no less -- and this has become easily the worst year in franchise history in terms of public perception. Obviously that is not all due to the mascot, but you can certainly make a strong case that stop gap measures which by themselves offer nothing positive certainly do not help to cover up a bad situation. Unfortunately, that sounds very similar to what USATF is attempting to do in a "no financial cost" endeavor. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 1/6/03 6:43:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > You left out one important detail: Was the mascot you saw last night > > anywhere near as hideous as the one USATF was given? If not, then I > beg > > to differ with, "If they really were able to get it for free, its even > > better, as there will only be a gain financially from it." That > overlooks > > the possibility that USATF could actually be hurt financially from it > if > > it makes a joke of the sport and drives some fans away without > attracting > > others... How much revenue does USATF draw from children in the form > of > > spectators??? Is there any market research that indicates youth > > participation will actually go up as a result of mascots? > > > > Dan > > > > > > Dan, > > The Philly Phanatic is not exactly attractive. > > Steve S. > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: re: Mascot
> Mascots attract kids, there is no debating this, > anything to the contrary is pointless banter. I take it that's your way of saying you can't support the statement? I still haven't seen any evidence provided for the position that a mascot will directly help USATF financially. We already know it's done a disservice to the organization in terms of negative publicity -- and no, that has absolutely nothing to do with "no matter what USATF does, people are going to crucify it;" it's simply an awful mascot -- so I'm assuming there has to be some market research indicating that that factor can be overcome by having pictures taken with kids. Makes perfect sense. Go after the people without money and alienate the paying customers who might even be participants. Dan --- "Michael J. Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Mascot has an equal stupidity look, but kids don't know the > difference, so the point is moot. Mascots attract kids, there is no > debating this, anything to the contrary is pointless banter. Whether > the children are spectators or contestants (we're not talking Millrose > here, but JO meets for appearances) this is a positive financial > opportunity for USATF & TnF as a whole. Kids will have something else > to remember outside of the events they contest. The money to be made > from pictures w/ the Mascot is huge, especially if it goes back to the > Grass Roots programs (Associations), where it should. This is not an > issue of youth participation numbers, as Mascot will not be at > local/yocal meets (for the most part), but at Nationals where it will be > an attraction piece. For years it has been difficult to make T&F fun > for kids, this is a good step in that direction. It just seems like > another case where no matter what USATF does, people are going to > crucify it. > > MJR > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: NJSIAA sux...
Almost as ridiculous is refusing to leave the "unsanctioned" facility when told repeatedly to do so by officials with a history of harshly enforced rules. Doesn't justify the rule, but it also doesn't reflect all that well on the intelligence of the athletes in question. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Listers, > > For all of you who have not heard of this utterly ridiculous action > brought > against 3 kids at a NJ state relay meet yesterday, hold on to your lap > tops... > > > Yesterday, 3 NJ HS boys (from the same team) were DQ'd before the start > of > the indoor state relay championships for warming up outside in an > unsupervised facility!! It was reported that the boys were told > repeatedly to > get off of the outdoor facility, but refused. When they returned to the > building to enter, they were met by 3 NJSIAA officials (and their coach > was > not present) who said they heard both sides of the story and decided to > DQ > the kids anyway. WHO IN THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE, AND WHY IS THEIR WORD > > LAW?! The same situation arose last year with the state's leading female > > hurdler, who claimed she entered her seed card, and an NJSIAA official > said > she didn't. The word of the official was law, and the girl was not > allowed to > run. I'm trying to figure out the intent of the NJSIAA. Is it to uplift > the > integrity of scholastic sports in NJ, or ego trip? I can understand a > repremand, but to DQ runners outside the realm of competition is > ridiculous. > The team, without 3 of it's top runners, ended up losing the meet by 1 > point... > > > Larry A. Morgan > Elizabeth Heat TC = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Drug cheat Mitchell to coach leading Britons
> The Electronic Telegraph > > Mitchell, 36, has since established himself as a coach > and has been credited for the emergence of American > sprinters Bernard Williams and J J Johnson... I think they've got that backwards. If I'm not mistaken, both JJ and Bernard emerged prior to working with Mitchell, then more or less disappeared after switching to him this past year. > Regis said: "... We sent Dwain Chambers to train in Miami 18 > months ago and it's paid off..." I thought Chambers was training in California with the Russian coach (Remy K. or whatever the name is I can never remember) last year? Wouldn't 18 months ago have placed it right in the middle of the European season? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
--- Kurt Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the > whole sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to > be welcome. That's assuming, of course, that he actually created the mess. I'm more inclined to think he "merely" played a big part in it and took the fall for a mess created long before his time and continued on long after it. I think it's great that Francis may be re-entering the sport (not that he really ever left it, apparently). Look at the effect just the rumors have had on the IAAF! They're scrambling around, trying to put out fires that aren't even lit yet. As I've said elsewhere, I think Francis' reputation (or is that his shadow?) has grown bigger than even the IAAF over the years. There is so much hiprocricy within the sport with regards to drugs that a wake-up call is exactly what is needed. And who better to provide it then the person who is regarded as the pre-eminent expert on the subject and known to not back away from it? Who really sympathizes with the IAAF wringing their hands over fears of having to answer questions about drugs all summer? If anyone created the "whole sordid mess," it's the people in those circles. Let them figure it out. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
--- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unfortunately, we're also back at that same horrid place
> we've been so many times before, with track's governing bodies
> attempting to put out fires by pouring gasoline on them.
I guess I didn't really state it clearly, but that is precisely why I
think this is such a great opportunity to finally get the IAAF to clean up
their act! Between Francis, Jones, and Montgomery -- and Nike probably
has a wee bit of influence in that group -- I just don't see that this one
can be put to bed quietly. There are a lot of very difficult questions on
the table that I'd really like the IAAF make an attempt at answering. If
Marion and Tim stay the course, the IAAF will have little choice but to do
that or take the whole sport down with them... If the latter happens,
something will surely rise up (eventually) to fill the void.
--- Randall Northam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dan
> You've confused me here. Not a difficult task I will admit but let me
> see if I've worked out your logic.
> The IAAF are upset at answering questions about drugs whereas if they
> turned a blind eye to it (in other words ignored "the whole sordid
> mess") it would go away. Is that right?
No, that's not quite what I meant. Ignoring it wouldn't make it go away,
although it certainly could have been smoothed out somewhat. What I meant
is that the IAAF created this very situation, and now it has come full
circle and smacked them square between the eyes. There's no reason to
feel sympathetic for their current plight, which is what they're angling
for ("there must be hundreds of good sprint coaches in the US, why
Francis?" Uh, maybe because a "good" coach doesn't quite cut it at the
very top level?).
> If the IAAF said they had no problem with Francis coaching again you
> don't think there'd be an even bigger mess?
I'm not sure. My gut feeling is the current mess would be much less, but
the future mess is anyone's guess.
I'd be curious for a show of hands: How many people on the list feel
Charlie Francis is the only active T&F coach who is a proponent of drug
use? There are two reasons I can think of to single him out:
1) He's a known commodity (i.e. laziness)
2) He's a danger to the sport's management (i.e. fear)
Neither is a very compelling reason in my mind to be the sole target of
the IAAF's attacks... If Francis had his way, we'd have an incredibly
exciting sport to watch, and much of the negativity we always complain
about would fall be the wayside.
I'm reminded of Tim Robbins' classic line from Shawshank Redemption;
paraphrasing: "The ironic thing is I was straight as an arrow on the
outside. I had to go to jail to become a crook." Francis had to cheat
and be busted to be revealed as one of the most honest people within the
sport...
Dan
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Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Somebody mentioned his honesty. > Didn't that come only AFTER he got caught? Others have been caught and been much less than honest with their explanations... Francis' motivations may have been at least partially due to book sales (post-Dubin), but he willingly shares enough that little is left to the imagination. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @ o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: More support for Francis...
--- Mike Prizy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why would someone want to brag about a time that was > disqualified because it was assisted by performance enhancing drugs? > > This is from page one of Charlie's web site: > > How is 6.33 seconds for 60 meters or 9.79 seconds for 100meters while > easing in to the finish? That's an easy question to answer. If Francis truly believes that any "winner" is on drugs in order to be at that level, then it is natural to take pride in the fact that his system produced the best drug-assisted athletes of all. Simply a level playing field. If an up and coming athlete believes likewise, would they go to a coach who has produced 9.9x or one who has produced 9.7x? If the reports are true that Francis has been working with Montgomery for the past 2 years, he could now claim a 9.78 and 9.79, and arguably both have tested clean... Going back to what I said about the IAAF creating this situation, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if it weren't for their muddling around. Instead, we could be fantasizing about seeing 10.4x and 9.6x over the next 2 years. But no, we'd rather complain about those people that are striving to accomplish exactly that which we want to see. Isn't that reason enough to do away with the drug testing farce? Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
Yes, but Mr. Dubin himself said Francis made his work easy by being so open with all the details. Of course Francis didn't share specifics of his doping program before getting caught -- that would have been idiotic -- but he certainly did not hide from them after the fact. If you accept the possibility that Francis was no more guilty than the majority of his peers, then his actions have been the closest thing to noble that the sport has produced. At the other end of the spectrum is the beer and sex arguments you mentioned. A reliable source told me the reason USATF bought the argument and cleared Mitchell is because he threatened to take everyone down with him. Given his role in USATF at the time (athlete's advisory, I believe) and knowledge of the doping situation, that was far from an empty threat. Funny, all the people involved in that situation are free to work as they choose. I guess that's what dishonesty gets you in this day and age. Dan --- Randall Northam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Difference was Francis wasn't being honest because he wanted to get it > all off his chest. The Dubin enquiry was judicial. Had he lied he could > have been done for perjury. No other coaches of athletes other than > those in the Ben Johnson affair have been put in this position so they > can claim sex, beer, naughty people spiking their drinks etc. etc. > Randall Northam > > On Thursday, Jan 30, 2003, at 03:09 Europe/London, Dan Kaplan wrote: > > > Others have been caught and been much less than honest with their > > explanations... Francis' motivations may have been at least partially > > due to book sales (post-Dubin), but he willingly shares enough that > > little is left to the imagination. = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Would M&M bother to show up, if the there is no > $$ guarantee and prize money is the only carrot? Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ---- @ o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >Don't you think public interest will actually be *greater* after this > >controversy? If anything, the appearance fees should be higher. I > >doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. > > Then why do news reports say that Nike has been > trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? Dunno, I haven't seen those reports. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Regina record to test WMA sanity
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > But here's the most AMAZING part: If Regina doesn't trot around with > paperwork in hand and gets the needed signatures of timers, judges, > etc., she won't get credit for a world masters record. Yes, not getting credit for a masters record is clearly more amazing than setting a world record and running her first sub-4 ever ... Indoors! Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: BACKGROUND FEATURE ON MARION, TIM AND THEIR COACH
My response to that same article: http://run-down.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12418#12418 Dan --- Steve Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Published The Courier Mail, Saturday 1 Feb 2003 This was before > Charlie's statement > > By MIKE HURST = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: "IAAF is cautious on Charlie Francis statement against doping"
... or more likely, Charlie is just saying what's expected of him at this point to get reinstated. He has allegedly been working with Tim for 2+ years, so if he believes it now, it would follow he believed it then. Not much reason to hide such a belief all this time unless he didn't actually believe it. Dan --- Kurt Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>"Tim and Marion have proven to me that athletic performances at the > very > >>highest level can be achieved without resort to performance enhancing > >>drugs," he said. << > > IMHO, this is the most interesting part of Charlie's recent statement. > Because if it's true and Tim and Marion have in fact shown him that it's > > possible to reach the very top without dope in 2003, then I assume that > Charlie is smart enough to ponder for a moment and realize that such a > possibility must have also existed in the past. That back when he was > pointing the finger at every athlete at the top, maybe some of them, or > many > of them, or maybe even most of them, were actually clean. In other > words, > maybe Ben really was a no more than a second-tier sprinter who needed to > use > dope in order to beat clean athletes who were better than him. > > Kurt Bray = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Euro meet directors threaten to go nuclear
Going back a few posts... "Representatives of Nike, with whom Jones has a multimillion-dollar contract, have tried to persuade her to sever the relationship with Francis, sources said." No disrespect intended to Phil, but I expect a somewhat more concrete reference than that. More importantly, though, my original statement was that I doubted this whole situation would have a negative impact on meet sponsors. (I added "meet" to the statement this time, but the context previously was about how it would likely add fan interest to meets.) As such, the Nike reference is not the sponsorship angle I was getting at. That's sponsorship of an individual athlete -- a very touchy subject with drugs -- not of an overall meet. With the latter, a sponsor can easily wiggle out from under and drug repercussions, as they can simply say they are supporting the meet as a whole or the clean athletes, not the questionable ones. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> >doubt it will have a negative impact on sponsors. > >> > >> Then why do news reports say that Nike has been > >> trying to encourage Jones to disassociate herself from Francis? > > > >Dunno, I haven't seen those reports. > > > >Dan > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5069699.htm > > Phil Hersh is a very reputable reporter, and wouldn't quote > 'sources' unless he had something a lot stronger than a rumor. > = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: MARION SPEAKS Some interview
--- John Sun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Personally, I don't see how further tainting MJ's > image is good for her, the sport nor Nike's bottom > line. From what I've read on this board in the past, > MJ's market value (for getting endorsements) has been > hurt by her past associations. If that's the case, why is she currently referred to in all the articles as the media darling and the one that got Nike's full backing (thus making people like Greene jealous)? Why is the IAAF so worried about their star acquiring a tainted image if that has already happened in the past? It doesn't add up. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: can I come back now? It depends...what do you think of Milli Vanilli?
> From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > It's the doping that has an insidious effect on > the sport, not the talk. I'm sure of it. That may be, but the drugs aren't going away no matter how tight we close our eyes. The talk (and perception), at least, we have a choice about. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Pseudo-techno-crap
--- P N Heidenstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The greatest sprinter of all time (in terms of records as well > as world and Olympic titles) was Carl Lewis - consistently > a far slower starter than his opponents. Did he worry about > that failing (if it was a failing?). Has anyone ever speculated > on what his times might have been had he worked on his > start? Did his coaches complain loudly? Was he a great > sprinter in spite of his slow start, or a great sprinter because > of his slow start? As great as Carl was, he had one opponent who was far better when "on," who also happened to be probably the best starter ever. I'd say that pretty conclusively tells us that each athlete has different strengths and weaknesses. I.e., it's ludicrous to suggest a slower start might yield a faster overall time, unless the assumption is the athlete is incapable of starting fast in controlled fashion, which is equally ludicrous when considering world class athletes. Furthermore, do we really need to dive back into the topic of reaction time and early stages of the race being two completely distinct issues? I would venture to guess that there is no relationship whatsoever between the two. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Gebs Record Still Safe
What the heck was up with the second group (everyone but ElG)? Were they only in the race for the purpose of rabbiting late-race after getting lapped??? That's some pretty high quality athletes to be that far off the pace. Dan --- "B. Kunnath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 1Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 8:06,61 > 2Laban Rotich KEN8:28,25 > 3Driss Maazouzi FRA 8:28,26 > 4Mohammed Amyn MAR 8:28,28 > 5Khoudir Aggoune ALG 8:29,75 > 6Kevin Sullivan CAN 8:30,08 > 7Said Chebili FRA8:31,57 > 8Irba Lakhal MAR 8:44,90 > Salah Hissou MARDNF > Graham Hood CAN DNF = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Interesting Developments
--- Ed Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The new international drug policy, for one. If they really mean it, > and stick to their gunds, this might overcome the legal problems here > in the U.S. Who is going to go to court with the knowledge that a > successful bid would mean the U.S. is no longer in the Olympic Games. > Can you imagine the coverage such a suit would get from whatever > network has paid millions of dollars to cover the next Games. Which is exactly why such a policy has virtually no chance of being successfully implemented... Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F ------------ @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: IAAF shoots down Radcliffe plan
--- Kebba Tolbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > why does the IAAF care what the gender of the pacer is? Distance > athletes use pacers all the time. Heck MJ even used Kevin > Braunskill as one in his 300m "WR". I believe the key point is that a male rabbit can pace a woman throughout the entire race, whereas there are presumably no men not already in the race that could pace an elite male the whole way. Whether or not you care for rabbiting in races, allowing men to pace women completely changes the nature of the event. That's probably why the reference to "what's next, cars?" was made. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Disgraceful conduct at IAAF indoor 200m
> "Apart from physically removing the reluctant athlete (not great for PR), > some other ideas have been to remove the blocks, to place cones or a > hurdle in the lane, to have a large official stand in the middle of the > lane or to load the starter's pistol with one live round " Wouldn't the obvious fallback be to threaten the athlete with bans from future competitions? That's what happens in other sports when athletes refuse to play be the rules... Then again, T&F seems to do everything in its power to not be taken seriously by the sporting public. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: Where, O Where have those little Greeks gone? Where, O Where can they be?
I'm with Malmo on this one. I share a healthy dose of suspicion regarding the apparent drug test dodging Greeks, but policies and enforcement like this are dangerously close to harrassment. Yet another reason why drug testing can only harm the sport, in my humble opinion. Dan --- malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm SHOCKED!!! Young 20-something bucks take off on the road for > adventure without telling anyone. That's never happened before has it? > > Next thing you'll be telling me is that they stay out past 9pm! = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F -------- @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com
