Re: t-and-f: a note to my Canadian brethren
I can't speak for others, but I believe the prevailing opinion is that his marks were no less legit than most others regarded as valid. >take this cynical they-all-must-be-on-dope approach then you not only take down say Maurice Greene and Carl Lewis along with dirty >Ben, but you take down Canadian hero Donovan Bailey too. He was WR holder not all that long ago you know. I thought the virtuous >Canadians, with all their soul-searching and national catharsis of the Dubin Commission, had solved their dope problems. No? No ! Since the Dubin Canadian athletes have been tested regularly and any positive test, directly after the B sample result , has been announced and the athlete with drawn from competition immediately. Donovan was one of the most tested athletes in the World. I believe that Canada has no pending positives, and thus Donovan IS CLEAN. Until the USATF cleans up their act , releases all information on all past positives , and shows that they are going to CONTINUE to do the same , all US athletes are suspect. Lewis and Greene may be on a list somewhere of hidden US positives ..no one knows. Ben WAS dirty.Donovan WAS clean..Lewis and Greenewho knows That is the reputation that the USATF and USOC has created for their athletes. I believe that AC has a system that does not do the same for Canadian athletes. >Personally, I prefer to believe good things about Bailey, Lewis, and Greene until some evidence demonstrates otherwise - as it abundantly >in Ben's case. That's why I leave Donovan's WR on the list, but Ben's does not exist. Because of the Dublin , the consistent testing and punctual announcements Lewis and Greene don't deserve to be grouped with Donovan. >Kurt Bray Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games Coach,Field Events, Universitie de Moncton NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor NB CSG web page http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/stuart/
Re: t-and-f: WillyBeaman
...sarcastic...condescending. what former list member does this sound like ? At 06:21 PM 9/16/00 EDT, you wrote: >Whether or not I am using a psuedonym, is of very little consequence, I will let you wonder. BTW, I did not know there was a rule on how to spell "my" name, especially since it is legally William. But thank you for the english lesson, it was one of my weaker subjects. >And I happened to have liked the movie, maybe it had something to do with hearing my name on the big screen. > >William E. Beaman > Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: UST&F facing ban over drug testing
>> domestic out-of-competition testing program tomorrow. Then Arne wouldn't >> have any USA domestic positives to complain about the confidentiality of. >> And his latest blast comes after Craig Masback called for Wada to take >over >> the program. some kind of independent body is necessary. >Ed Koch is correct and has been more diplomatic than most would be. >Lundquist is blowing smoke out his ass. Ha! Just try suspending U.S. >athletes. Of course, meets have plenty of athletes from around the world to >draw from, but just imagine major European promoters with a chance to get MJ >and Mo but they can't because the U.S. has been suspended from competition. >Money talks and the IAAF would quickly find themselves VERY alone in the >world. > >The same thing might happen if the IAAF threatened a similar sanction >against Kenya, Great Britain or half a dozen other countries. > >I'm actually glad to see this BS, because it means some things are going to >happen and happen soon (although I don't know what - I'll just watch the >fireworks!) Either all countries should have to use the same rules, or we have no rules, or those that refuse to follow the policies can't be part of the program. Right now some athletes have more rights than others and some are treated differently than others. This is just like the use of drugs itself. We must have a level playing. Using the legal system as an excuse just won't wash. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: "Independant Olympic Athletes?"
At 07:52 PM 10/1/00 -0600, you wrote: >In the marathon results on nbcolympics.com Calisto Da Costa (71rst place) >is associated not with a country but listed as an independent Olympic >Athlete. > >Does anyone know what this means? Probably was invited without standard. The IOC did this for some underdeveloped countries so they could participate. Like the swimmers. There were races for athletes with no standard. One guy took 1:52 for 100 meters. He became an Olynpic story. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: USATF, doping, and the US legal system.
At 08:01 PM 10/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >>The fact is, with few exceptions, our legal system is built around the >>concept of openness of the adjudication process -- there is no "right to >>secret back-room tribunals". If you are an airline pilot, a train engineer, >>a bus driver or, yes, even just an ordinary private citizen, have an >>accident while on or off the job, and you can be summarily suspended without >>pay, and the results of your drug tests will be made public. No "right of >>confidentiality here" is there? That is the legal precedent. >>What we're talking about here is not criminal, nor even civil violations of >>law. We're talking about is the administrative rules of a sporting >>federation. Those rules can be changed at any time to reflect spirit of our >>open legal system -- if only our leadership would have the will to do so. > >The IAAF tried your argument in the Butch Reynolds case- and lost. I believe that they only lost in that case because the USATF refused to accept the IAAF ruling. If they had been on side then he would have had to sit out because he would have had no place to compete. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: IAAF say GB more open than America
>The Americans were informed by the IAAF on Aug 11 and asked to seek an >explanation from Hunter. What they came up with, says Ljungqvist, "was no >explanation" and on Aug 24 the IAAF informed the USATF that Hunter should be >excluded from the Olympics. However, says Ljungqvist, "the Americans said >Hunter had not informed his wife and must be given time to inform her". The >next day was the last day for entering athletes for the Olympics and the >Americans gave Hunter his credentials for Sydney and listed him in the US >media handbook. The IAAF were clearly alarmed by this and kept on telling >the USATF that Hunter could not compete. On Sept 10, said Ljungqvist, "we >reminded them he is not allowed to compete". The next day Hunter withdrew >but the reason given was that he was injured. If this is true then this clearly shows the USATF is just thmbing their noses at the IAAF and the excuse of their justice system is just that. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: UST&F facing ban over drug testing
Great summary. I hope that the IAAF keeps the pressure on. Even the White House has asked that names be given to the IAAF. >> What we can hold against Lundquist and Merode is that 200 of the 211 >member >> federations of the IAAF don't even have an out-of-competition testing >> program and we never hear a word about that. What if the USA eliminated >its >> domestic out-of-competition testing program tomorrow. Then Arne wouldn't >> have any USA domestic positives to complain about the confidentiality of. >> And his latest blast comes after Craig Masback called for Wada to take >over >> the program. Sounds to me like someone who is looking for a scapegoat not >a >> solution. > >Firstly, many if not most of the 211 member countries are (1) too poor to >afford extensive out of competition test programs and (2) do not have enough >athletes at the elite level to make such testing worthwhile anyway. Remember >that it's often the national T&F bonds that have to pay the bills, and if >you think USATF's piggy bank is short on cash, wait till you see the state >of , say, Senegal's. This is not an excuse, I think that the IAAF should >foot the bills more often. > >Secondly, some of the loudest calls for out of competition drug testing have >come from the US itself. This is bound to boomerang sometimes. When you talk >the talk etc. > >Thirdly, if (say) the Chinese were to be found have covered up drug cheats >the general reaction would still be the same. >Correction: the general reaction would be ear-splitting. > >Fourthly, and I name no names (mainly because I've cleaned up my mail >archives :-), I seem to recall some talk here about Charlie Francis, a level >playing field, and cheating being cheating, no matter what. I'm sure >Lundquist and Merode want everybody to be able to look their mom in the >eyes. > >As I said earlier, I do think the IAAF and IOC have very flawed drugs >policies. But everybody has to live with them. The IAAF and IOC are >reluctant testers; it is the weight, or percieved weight of the public >demand from a few rich nations that our sport be "clean" that is spurring >their witch hunts. In the light of this I find all this sudden moral >indignation strange. > > > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Talk about falling short: What about Burrell? - Errata
A hearing where the truth comes out. Paid for by the Canadian government as they tried to clean up their sporting organizations. Great idea. But it will never happen south of the border? Not a chance !! At 10:32 PM 10/2/00 EDT, you wrote: >Then if Ben Johnson was so clean at the Games why did he admit to taking >drugs at the hearing regarding this in the months that followed? > >jp Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: devers at GP Final
y wrote: > >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Phil Weishaar >wrote: > >100 METRES HURDLES - WOMEN ;&nb sp; Wind: > ;&nb sp;& nbsp; ; Pts > 1 Devers Gail USA 12.85 24.0 > 2 Alozie Glory ; NGR 12.94 21.0 > 3 Ennis-London Delloreen JAM 12.96 18.0 > 4 Morrison Melissa &nb sp; USA 13.00 15.0 > 5 Couch-Jewell Sharon &nbs p; USA 13.06 12.0 > 6 Freeman Michelle &n bsp; JAM 13.11 9.0 > > >I guess T&F has reached a level that I will never understand. > >phil weishaar > >- > >Isn't that the truth That is exactly what I was saying last week in a post I made about the Olympics and all of the individuals that had various excuses and didn't even seem to try .. Many didn't even step foot on the track .. I said it privately to some folks last week and will say it now with conviction - Devers did not seem to be hurt in her Olympic semi and I'm sorry but if she were she wouldn't still be kicking everyone's butt in this meet .. One thing seems clear - few are competing for the love of the sport any more .. While I have not been a big Donovan Bailey fan in the past, he did show up and run .. He was eliminated early, but he gave it a shot .. So many DIDN'T give it a shot .. At the Olympics of all places .. That once in lifetime place for most where dreams are supposed to come true .. Oh wait a minute .. That was in the old millennium .. This is the new millennium .. The one where money rules .. Where drugs apparently reign .. And where you can't tell the players without a dope sheet (pun intended) .. And where its hard to tell if an athlete isn't competing somewhere due to a) injury, b) fearful of drug test, c) not enough money being offered, or d) some combination of the above .. I saw it coming when Carl Lewis and the SMTC squad quit running at Nationals because they couldn't make money .. Since then it has evolved to what we have seen in the last month - between the Olympics and the Grand Prix final .. I love track and field .. Always have .. Always will .. Strip away the bullshit and it is a beautiful sport .. Something for everyone .. A chance for all to excel .. The height of human competition .. Excitement galore .. But if this is what money is doing/has done to the sport, well I don't know .. I know before the money there were lots of big time track meets here in the state of California .. Since the money there are only a couple .. Before the money I could watch the best sprinters in the world almost every weekend right here in California .. Since the money maybe once every couple years .. Before the money people would cut off a leg and run with just one to be able to run in the Olympics .. Now if it don't feel right you just pass on the opportunity .. Hell, why did we want the sport to have more money anyway ?? > >Conway Hill >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Get off of Gail Devers!!!
At 11:37 PM 10/6/00 -0400, you wrote: >I can't believe you all can sit here and say that kind of stuff about Gail. >What kind of shit is that. If you all were listing, you would know that she >(Gail) said that she pulled up when she started to feel it (her hamstring) >pull more. So she DIDN'T pull up with a big-time injury. Some of you all >just jump on the band-wagon and actually believe that she tested positive >for something. C'mon!! This drug thing is really getting on my nerves. An >athlete pulls out of something and suddenly they're on drugs. And whoever >said that Gail pulled out for money is flat-out wrong. Don't you think she >is living quite comfortably by now? She is probably one of the richest track >athletes out there. She does have three gold medals and a career that >stretches as far back as 1988. I hope she would have something (money) by >now. Just had to get this of my chest. And 'I can't believe you all can sit here and say that kind of stuff about' the Chinese and everyone else who dropped out before the games. ' What kind of shit is that'. 'Some of you all just jump on the band-wagon'. Lets be realistic. Once it looks like a country (Canada 88, etc) has a problem with drugs it takes a major cleaning before anyone will believe that any of that country's athletes are clean. That is just human nature. Most people would not be saying anything unless there had been all the other continuing news about the Americians and drugs. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Get off of Gail Devers!!!
At 09:23 AM 10/7/00 EDT, you wrote: >the Chinese and everyone else who dropped out before the games.> > >The cynicists and conspiratorists may be completely out of control on this list but I do believe the Chinese themselves admitted that drug positives were the reason for their withdrawals. > >Steve S Same old story. Tell the truth and get fried. Lie and you are fine. What are we teaching the youth of today ? Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Devers etc.
At 08:41 AM 10/7/00 EDT, you wrote: >Some of you guys ( I need not say names ) need to start doing your homework a >little better. To accuse Gail of pulling up out of fear of a drug test is >just plain ol stupid. Don't you know that they can drug test you anyway no >matter what round it is? Not to mention the random drug tests around the >village ( and yes they were out in full force trying to collect samples)? oh >yeah... I guess you would also conclude that the IAAF would let her collect >on 200k without her getting tested as well huh? Don't forget the 3 out of >competition drug test you have to have just to get you money from the IAAF. > >but I guess the whole world is dirty and we have all these powerful people >with intricate cover-ups and secret medicine men, haha. > >*note to self * There are some on this list who have seen one too many >episodes of the X-files I am finding this drug debate very amusing. Over the years drugs have been talked about at length many times. It has usually started from a positive test by an athlete from Germany, Britian, China, Canada , etc. At that point this list is flooded with replies. Everyone wants the cheats thrown out and the sport cleaned up. At some point in almost all of the previous debates someone has asked about Americian athletes and coverups have been mentioned (Tony C has had fun with this). At that point many US list members have (including notable former athletes) have told everyone to shut-up unless there are facts. Now, thanks to CJ, many people and organizations(IAAF, IOC, USATF, USOC) are talking about positives not being reported. Numbers like 12, 33 recently and 5 from 88, have fuelled this debate. We have all read quotes like: former director of drug control for the US Olympics Committee has told a federal judge that he has enough evidence to back up his claims that the organisation sabotaged his anti-drug battle. and... A former USOC medical chief alleged in a sworn affidavit filed Friday that U.S. Olympic athletes commonly used banned drugs and the USOC covered up positive tests. and... Dr Robert Voy, chief medical officer from 1983 to 1989, also said the USOC had no interest in curbing the use of such drugs. He said its doping program encouraged the use of performance-enhancing drugs. With all of this many people are doubting the reasons of many Americian athletes for their actions. Then we have a post like the one above. The' how dare you doubt an Americian star' attitude. Lets remember one of the first posts to hit this list after the 1996 100 meter men's final. It read something like 'Don't cheer yet Canadians..lets wait for the drug test'. This of course had nothing to do with Donovan but was the legacy left by Ben. And this was after the Dubin Inquiry and all of the increased testing by an independent organization in Canada. Now that the 'shoe is on the other foot' the debate is not as much fun..is it ? Until the Americian system is completely overhauled many people will doubt most Americian performances and rationale for any kind of behaviour. If you don't think this is fair ask everyone that has endured this for years. >DMC >Integrity is the cornerstone of trust > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Devers etc.
At 02:30 PM 10/7/00 EDT, you wrote: >I am going to make this reply short. Although I understand your post and the >angle your coming from, I did not base my claim because it was an American >athlete. I based my claim based on the athlete herself and the situations. >You speak of DB and the accusations some layed on him and I will say that >some of them were well deserved but in gails case they are not. Am I saying >that DB was dirty? Of course not and I never thought he was dirty but yet >don't forget HE was quick to accuse others of being dirty when his own >history was shaky.- how so...please explain DB's shaky history. The only true problem with Donovan was that he won the , possibly, highest provile track event in 1996. A non-Americian winning Americia's event in America. The 'fastest man in the World' is the 100 meter's Olympic champion and he isn't from the US. Then.ah...he must be dirty. The problem with that theory is that one of the most tested athletes in the world has always tested clean. Then...ah... the 200 meter's champ must be the fastest. Stats can prove anything. He would blow that Canuck away over..ah..say..150 meters. Opps that didn't work either. Thats another story in itself. Did you notice people >talking of Bruny last year? nope. Only because he didn't win. The Crown had returned to the USA. > >Its funny that an organization like the USATF which has the same lack of >funding that athletics Canada has would be so powerful to provide so many >cover-ups. Both Tony and Charlie should be able to finally accept the fact >that Ben was not just doing what everyone else was doing. He was a 10.4 guy >who juiced to the max! ..and, since YOU brought up ancient history, FLO-JO was a natural 10.49 girl that was so far ahead of her time that even a great athlete like Marion Jones, with 12 years worth of better training techniques and tracks that are so much harder and faster is still 0.20 behind. Then at the peak of her earning potential, as a gold medal winning Olympic star, retires. Everything looks up front to me. It was just that Canadian guy that was dirty. Nobody else was 'juiced to the max! ...now thats funny. >DMC >Integrity is the cornerstone of trust > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Devers etc.
At 05:22 PM 10/7/00 EDT, you wrote: >Since you want to post private mail I will adress yours in public as well. not a problem :) ><true problem with Donovan was that he won the , possibly, highest provile >track event in 1996. A non-Americian winning Americia's event in America. >The 'fastest man in the World' is the 100 meter's Olympic champion and he >isn't from the US. Then.ah...he must be dirty. The problem with that >theory is that one of the most tested athletes in the world has always >tested clean. Then...ah... the 200 meter's champ must be the fastest. Stats >can prove anything. He would blow that Canuck away over..ah..say..150 >meters. Opps that didn't work either. >> > >You say that one of the most tested athletes in the world has always tested >clean? then you come right back and bring up flo-jo as being suspect? C'mon >and make up your mind! She passed just as many( if not more) drug tests as DB >did so what does that say about your theory? According to Ed Koch, posted earlier this week on this list " USATF (then TAC/USA) enacted out-of competition drug tests in 1989 following the Ben Johnson scandal." If this is the case the only tests that Flo-Jo pasted were in competition tests. It would be almost impossible for her to be tested as often as any of todays athletes. With the proper timing athletes can always test negative. If this is true that would have been the year that she retired. Another coincidence. The timing is why I mentioned her. No need to get into what could >be percieved as a shaky history of DB...I've heard all of the reasons why >people would think he is dirty just as I am sure you have only the rumours...no facts...never has been any on him...go ahead name them...explain... so there is no need >to talk about it because like I said to you earlier..I NEVER said I thought >he was dirty. Then you talk about DB winning the high profile 100...well I >don't remember a lot bad talk about Linford when he walked away with the >title in 92. It wasn't in front of the home crowd. Why would you be upset about the WFM debate with MJ? The people >in Canada were still claiming Bailey to be the WFM despite the fact he was >beaten by MG in the the next WC and Goodwill Games and just about everywhere >else in between. Meanwhile Bailey hadn't even come close to 9.84 again..but >as you said oops that didn't work either. Donovan was the world's fastest man until MG beat his world record. MG also backed that up with a solid gold in Sydney. He is currently the fastest man and will be until the world record is broken or someone else wins the Olympic gold. At no time did I say that DB was still the fastest. But he was in 96 and should have been regarded as such. It should not have taken the odd 150 meter duel race to settle it. But that race did give our sport some coverage between Olympics. >..and, since YOU brought up ancient history, FLO-JO was a natural 10.49 girl >that was so far ahead of her time that even a great athlete like Marion >Jones, with 12 years worth of better training techniques and tracks that are >so much harder and faster is still 0.20 behind. Then at the peak of her >earning potential, as a gold medal winning Olympic star, retires. Everything >looks up front to me. It was just that Canadian guy that was dirty. Nobody >else was 'juiced to the max! >...now thats funny.>> > >is that your best argument? You assume ( and I know you been told what >happens when you ASSume something) FGJ was dirty when we KNOW Ben was. >...now thats funny ...since it isn't a good argument, taking into account when the US started out-of-competition testing, feel free to torch it. Explain to me the gaps in logic. As dirty as Ben was everything has improved so much that a clean MG has posted a similar time and has the ability to improve on it. But the ladies are still years behind the clean Flo-Jo. Please explain. > >DMC >Integrity is the cornerstone of trust > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Mo Greene
>The most dominant sprinters we have seen in our time are Carl, Mo, and >Frankie. Big time performers have been Carl, Mo, Valery, Donovan (ugh), and >Dennis Mitchell. That´s right I said Dennis. Check the records and you will >find him everywhere. Check American records and you cannot see a >championship without his name in it somewhere. If you are going to include Dennis then Ben would at least be a big time performer (as per Tony's list od his accomplishmnets). Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Mo Greene
Bob Hayes Valery Borzov These two were dominate (I think...vets help me here:) but competed in another era. They were on top before the huge jumps in technology for tracks, equipment and training. I think that the list is incompete if all we list are athlete since 1980. But then it becomes really hard to compare..but the debate would be interesting. >Darrell, >How can you eliminate Linford from the top five saying he didn't dominate >his event, >and then in the same post call Frankie dominant. That's ludicrous, Frankie >only won >one championship and it wasn't even a 100m. Can't include Frankie(even though he is one of my favs). He is in the same category as Calvin Smith. He was not dominate. Mitchell never placed higher >than third >in a major championships individual event and he is a big time performer If Mitchell stays on the list, even with a positive test, then I think we still look at Ben. >Linford >dominated the 100m from 1992-1994 (1994 he was robbed for AOY) and placing >2nd in Seoul, and 4th in Tokyo (due to a Mitchell false start) hardly makes >him a >spectator any more than Frankie or Mitchell were. Linford should be there. And saying Ben minus the >drug >bust was just a good sprinter! Without a drug suspension he was the fastest >and >most dominant who ever lived. He would have destroyed Maurice. > >Carl is obviously the greatest, but the rest of your post makes no sense at >all. I don't see Carl as obvious unless we are only talking about the greatest of the last two decades. I think that Donovan Bailey was a big time performer but was not on top any where close to as long as others. >Glenn Smith >[EMAIL PROTECTED] I would include: Ben Lewis Borzov Hayes Christie Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Mo Greene
At 01:08 AM 10/17/00 EDT, you wrote: >Mitchell is hard to include as he only had two Bronzes. Does he rank ahead >of Burrell who had two Wr's and indoor WR and WC Silver? > >Mitchell did make Oly finals in 88., 92, and 96 (i think). Burrell would get the edge because he always did it clean Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Drugs and the sprints
At 10:00 PM 10/17/00 +0200, you wrote: > >- Original Message - > >> Whoa ... "not a great improvement"? Witness the WR of Ben Johnson ... a >> time .20 ahead of almost everyone else in history who ran the 100m at >> sea-level with fair wind. You guys know that sub-10.00 at sea level used >to >> be rare. How can you characterize a .20 advantage as "not great"? > >Hold on a sec. here. >Ben Johnson was the only top athlete on dope in 1988? >Ben was running against a clean crowd ? Let's see where this goes ... > >> And, yes, I attribute Ben Johnson's ability to run that fast to DRUGS. >> Without them, he is a 10.15 guy at the very best. > >Linford Christie ran 9.97 in Seoul and Dennis Mitchell ran 10.04. >They were not tested positive in Seoul. >Christie's personal record is 9.87, Mitchell's is (guessing here) in the low >9.9's. >Both tested positive after Seoul. If we are including best clean times then we should include Ben's winning time from Rome. He tested negative there. He only lost that record because of testimony at the Dubin Inquiry. If we don't include that time is it right to include the best times of other athletes when they tested negative but tested positive at another time ? Possibly just cycled correctly, like Ben did for Rome, and appeared to be clean. Just food ofr thought. >Two conclusions are possible: > >1. Christie and Mitchell ran their Seoul times clean. >We can therefore use them as a benchmark for how fast elite athletes can >sprint without dope. If, as you say, dope gave Ben Johnson a 0.35 sec >advantage, and athletes in general a 0.2 boost, the question is then why >Mitchell and Christie do not have PR's in the 9.6's, set when they WERE >taking 'roids.
RE: t-and-f: Mo Greene
>Johnson is the only top-end sprinter we KNOW was taking drugs during that >era. We know that Johnson was certainly mediocre in comparison when he >wasn't on drugs. We can only speculate about other sprinters. Again, I >state that we need some form of "proof" before we throw accusations >around. I don't think we can "dirty" all others just because we have >doubts. Thus, Johnson's performances must be discounted, and he cannot be >considered among the greatest ever. Johnson tested negative in Rome and later positive in Seoul. Christie tested positive in Seoul ans positve after that but should be considered? Mitchell tested negative in Seoul and positive after that. If a positive test means that they can't be considered then Johnson is out and so is Christie and Mitchell. Maybe they just cycled better in preparation for Seoul, like Ben must have for Rome. I think that Ben should be considered. If we like it or not he ran 9.79 while slowing up at 80 meters glancing over at Carl and putting his arm up in the air as he finished. His time would have been much faster if he had sprinted through the line. To date no one has come close to that. The 5 should be: Ben Boszov Lewis Hayes Christie Hayes might even be higher than this. Once Greene's career is over he could very well displace one of these. Smith and Fredericks are at a level just below these five. They were great but were never dominent. I am not sure where Jesse Owens would be. Any thoughts on him ? >I don't think Christie can be considered among the top 5 because he wasn't >dominant in his era. I think we're giving short shrift to the pre 1964 >sprinters. What about Bobby Morrow, Jesse Owens or Charlie Paddock? I >suspect Cordner Nelson has some thoughts on that. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
RE: t-and-f: Putting Johnson in his place [was Mo Greene]
At 09:38 AM 10/18/00 -0700, you wrote: >The difference for Johnson is that he admitted under oath to long-term >usage that extended back to 1981. Neither Christie nor Mitchell admitted >to similar usage. That is a very important distinction in how we treat >Johnson. Agreed. My point was that either all athletes who tested positve should be eliminated from our discussion or that none should. As was mentioned earlier today roids improve training and once an athlete is caught at a meet it is impossible to tell how long they were taking it and how much of their other performances were tainted. As you say the only reason we know that Ben used them over an extended period of time was that the Dubin Inquiry was held. Until the same is done for all other high provile positives I believe that his marks should be considered in the same fashion that we are looking at the others. We are just talking about our opinions and not records of any kind. I just find it hard to knock a guy for telling the truth when a number of others have not been put in a position to do the same. To say that the others did or did not use drugs for an extended period of time is just speculation. But until the are held as accountable as Ben my opinion will remain the same. I understand why many people do not choise to argee with this. Thanks to those that gave me more info on Borsov. With that info I do believe that he was dominent and should be ranked. >The obvious drug taint on the women's side forces me to steer clear from >ranking the top women 100m sprinters, as suggested on this list. I must agree that we steer clear of this. But there are some people who won't agree because many don't feel that there is an 'obvious drug taint on the women's side'. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Embarassment
At 06:17 PM 10/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >> At 04:28 PM 10/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >> >I must disagree with Conway's assertion that we have a good junior >program >> >and it is the NCAA and JUCO programs. By the time they get to be 18 >years >> >old it is way too late to really develop the sport. Some sort of >widespread >> >programs need to start before age 10 so that kids are as exposed to >> >opportunities to "play" track as they are to baseball or soccer. >> > >> there is ...it is called the Hershey Program. > >You're joking, right? The Hershey program, the AAU juniors, the USATF >junior olympics are all tiny compared to the programs in football, >baseball,basketball,soccer and several others. That doesn't mean they are >bad programs, just that they aren't accomplishing even 5% of the coverage >that we need. Add to that the fact that all three groups in general believe >they don't need the other two and you have a recipe for a muddled set of >incomplete programs that cannot be called development. Not joking at all. They are good programs. But, as with all good ideas, the clubs and the schools have to pick them up. If assume that south of the border is similar to north of it. Many of the good, and great, coachs don't want to be seen working with young kids. It is below them. But everyone needs to develop a grass roots progam and it takes good coaches to work with this very importent age-group. If they did, probably similar to up here, they would accomplish much more than the 5%. Just my 2 cents Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Embarassment
I guess I really did miss the point. I forgot about one the the main differences between the Canadian and US systems. Up here the grass roots, or school system, is for the most part completely voluntary. All most all of the coachs have a full time job and then coach on the side (and for many this is again full time). In most areas there are club coachs, school coachs and some that do both. Many of the larger universities in Canada with track programs) Toronto, Windsor) have an age-class club attached to their university team. I , for one, am an assistent coach at a University (the honourium is not big enough to update my pentium 75) as well as a middle school coach. I am also a club coach and am looking after a Provincial team . I also teach full time. The teaching is my only salary. I guess that up here we are lucky. We have a club system, small in my area, that serves as our grass roots program. But like any program it can be improved and the Hershey Program can be a good tool for the clubs to use. At 09:37 PM 10/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >There's an obvious reason why college coaches can't be relied upon to develop a >grass roots program. University assistant coaches probably have an average salary >of $10,000 a year for a full-time job. You can barely live in Guatamala on that, >much less the US. Most I've seen either have a second job or work track camps >during the summer months so they can make some extra cash to survive. They don't >have the time to coach up-and-coming kids. And if you're a university head coach, >I doubt you spend your summer lounging around until the fall. > >Also, most high school track coaches are also assistant football coaches. Very >few schools have coaches dedicated to one sport. Once track season is over (end >of May for high schools), they have to begin working on the next sport which is >usually football. If they don't switch gears, they're out of a job. > >s.devereaux > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
t-and-f: Youth Programs
In our area of Canada track is not the major sport or even a major sport. We come somewhere after hockey, baseball, basketball and soccer. I believe that it is more popular in Ontario but not this far east. By numbers we would be lucky to be anywhere above 8th or 9th. >And I must disagree with those who said that track is the most popular youth >sport. Reasonable people can disagree and what I have seen places track not >even in the top ten. > >- Ed Parrot > > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
RE: t-and-f: Embarrassment, etc.
Where did all the list members go that complain about ALL of the best international athletes getting the NCAA money instead of the home-grown talent. I would assume that all of these athletes also could not represent their country because their NCAA school would not release. We Canadains had the same problems with the timimg.I only say partial results as the World Juniors progressed but I think there was a great Canadian achievement. I believe that we had a better medal count than the US. This is probably a first and won't happen again for along time( Pan-Am Jr are in October next year?). As Usual With a Smile :) >Hi, >Am I missing something?? Youre suggesting that the age limit of world >juniors be changed to suit American athletes??? >I agree that it was a pity that more of the abundent brilliant US talent >didnt compete, but surely to change a system just to accommodate one nation >seems totally unjustified. If the US athletes have other priorities, such as >football or High School cross country then so be it. Most of the other >Northern Hemisphere countries have exactly the same distractions ..School is >back .cross country season is under way soccer, gaelic football etc has >started. The athletes make decisions, they dont compete in soccer, they >miss some of the cross-country season, they study extra hard for any lost >time in school. If a lot of talented US athletes dont want to make these >kind of decisions then the rest of the world have to respect that but not >completely change things to suit one nation. I think it would be a very sad >day for athletics if world championships were scheduled to suit American >high school football or British secondary school soccer or whatever other >sport happens to clash with them where would the line be drawn > >The US athletes dont seem to suffer from not appearing at world juniors >anyway as can be seen from their continuous domination of world athletics. > >Regards >Mike > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ed Grant >Sent: 26 October 2000 18:27 >To: track net >Subject: t-and-f: Embarrassment, etc. > >Netters: >The timing of thr World Junior meet couldn't have been worse for >full participation of qualified U.S. athletes. > >Had the meet been held at a more normal time in the Southern >Hemisphere, sa February or March, there might have been a chance for some >leading preps and even some college frosh to participate. The age limit, not >turning 20 by Jan. 1, could have been extended for those athletes on the >simple reasoning that, like it or not, the prepondrance of world athletic >talent remains in the northern hemisphere. > >The barriers to prep athletes competing at this time of the year are >too numerous to even get into. They include the conflicts with football on >the one hand and HS (or college for the 2000 HS grads) CC on the other. As >far as taking time off from school is concerned, this is also the worst >possible, coming at the start of a new school year. And if you think HS >federations are going to let an athlete take off a semester, then get an >extra one in return (as,m for exampole, Tom Farrell did in 1964 for the >Tokyo Olympics, forget about it. > >Ed Grant
Re: t-and-f: "U.S. looks to clean up drug issues," by Sheila Hudson
This was just posted on the Canadian list. Any truth in it ? Apparently, Floyd Heard (USATF 200m silver medal) tested postive for for ephedrine at a meet earlier in the summer. He, however, competed in Sydney, despite knowledge of the test. J. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: "U.S. looks to clean up drug issues," by Sheila Hudson
Hi: Sorry I did not see it a month ago. I must have missed it with all the Games material. I really did not know of the positive test I was just asking a question. I never said that he should or should not compete. At 05:38 PM 11/1/00 GMT, you wrote: >Netters > >Peter wrote: >> This was just posted on the Canadian list. Any truth in it ? > >Yeah Pete. where you been? It came across over a month ago. Ephidrine >results in a warning - so why would he not compete? > > >Not a big deal here I think. > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: What's up with these officials???
At 09:37 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote: >Dave Johnson wrote: > > > At 5:01 PM -0500 31.12.2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >Dear Listers, > > > > > >I was just reading the NJ Star Ledger and they had a story about how > the lap > > >counter at a meet did not ring the bell lap provoking the anchor leg > on a HS > > >DMR to run an extra lap. His 4-lap split was 4:23, and he was very annoyed > > >that had the bell rang, he could've sprinted and maybe his team had a > chance > > >at the meet record (which they missed by mere seconds). I get very > angry when > > >things like this happens because the officials are there for a particular > > >reason and they fail to (at times) realize it. In AAU competiton last > year, I > > >witnessed an official stop 3 consecutive 3,000m races a lap short! I can > > >understand one, but 3!! He even went over to one of the participants, > who was > > >now at a water cooler, and informed her that she had an additional > lap! What > > >if she didn't advance? Another example occurred an indoor county meet > in NJ, > > >where the official physically prevented the runners from exchanging > the baton > > >and attempted to make them run an extra lap. Officials, pay attention > to the > > >track, PLEASE!! > > > > > > > > >Larry A. Morgan, Sr. > > >Elizabeth Heat TC > > > > > > > > As much as I sympathize with your identification of incompetency, I issue > > one warning: the only way to ultimately take care of the lap counting > > problem you identify is to become a lap counter yourself. I'm sure you can > > claim that you already spend enough time coaching, but there are many > > coaches who also officiate. And I've seen an awful lot of coaches who > > screwed up royally and then look for every whichway out of the pickle > > they've created by and for themselves. Don't get me wrong, meet directors, > > administrators, athletes and spectators (have I left anyone out?) screw up > > too. Just try watching a mile (or 1600m for Walt Murphy's sake) in their > > shoes. > > > > Dave Johnson > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >I realize that another point is being made here but I was just told a few >weeks >ago that coaches are not allowed to officiate in Canada. I don't know if >there are >similar rules in the US. >Regards, > > >Martin In the far eastern provinces of Canada, NB & NS in particular , almost all meets HAVE coaches officiating. Most meets would not even take place without the help of a coach or two with a tape measure , clipboard , stop watch or as the meet director. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games Coach,Field Events, Universitie de Moncton NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor NB CSG web page http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/stuart/
RE: t-and-f: Reuters version of USATF-Rogge story
At 10:56 PM 2/11/02 -0800, you wrote: >: "Gerald Woodward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Someone needs to expel Dick Pound! This self pontificating idiot had the gall to sit on the Today Show this morning (Monday, Feb 11th) and say that an athlete MUST know everything about any vitamins or supplements they take, even if the label does not indicate that a harmful substance is in it. How are most athletes, who are living on the ragged edge supposed to be able to afford to investigate every supplement they take? When they call the manufacturere and the manufacturer states unequivocally that it does not contain banned substances, what more can most athletes afford to do? I do not condone doping, have never used drugs and do not intend to start. I think dope is for dopes!!! However, when a Latvian athlete with twice the levels of a banned substance which was found to be a contamination to his supplements is allowed to compete in the Winter Olympics while the American athlete loses his appeals to compete, this is a travesty of justice. If one is banned, then all should be banned. If one is allowed to compete, then the other should also be allowed to compete. Gerald BUT... However, when (a Latvian athlete) an untold number of American athleteS (with twice the levels of a banned substance which was found to be a contamination to his supplements) test positive by the same standards as the rest of the World uses is allowed to compete in the (Winter) Summer Olympics while the (American) Canadian athlete loses (his) her appeals to competehammer thrower Tracy Lyons., this is a travesty of justice. If one is banned, then all should be banned. If one is allowed to compete, then the other should also be allowed to compete. Thirty months later the names still have not been released. It is not a level playing field. The World is held up to one standard and the US athletes are held up to another ,much lower seemingly tainted, one. This, of course , is the impression left by the present US process. The impression is, that if the athletes had nothing to hid the names would be released. Some how this double standard needs to be changed. The US has to find a way to get the information to the IAAF in a more timely fashion. If not, then every National body should hve the right to cover-up positive tests for two to three years!! Let the flaming begin !! Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games Coach,Field Events, Universitie de Moncton NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor NB CSG web page http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/stuart/
Re: t-and-f: Re: Three sub 10 men in a training group
The title on the posting that I received was 'Three sub 10 men in a training group'. These runners did train together as a group under Dan Pfaff so I would say they were a training group. In my book that would count. At 07:31 AM 12/28/00 -0800, you wrote: >Glenn Smith wrote: > > > This has already been done, Dan Pfaff's Austin, Texas group in 1999 had three sub 9.90 sprinters: > 1) Donovan Bailey 9.84 > 2) Bruny Surin 9.84 > 3) Obadele Thompson 9.87 > plus two other sub 10 men for good measure; Vince Henderson (9.95 PB), and Kareem Streete Thompson (9.96 PB) > > >>>>> > > Does this count since there really is no "team" and with the exception of Bailey adn Surin all of these ment compete separately .. The top 3 primarily for their countries .. And to my knowledge the arrangement (athletes/coach) is not full time ?? > > Conway Hill > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
Re: t-and-f: Relay Dream Teams - Part II
If Ben was lead off and Bruny was in 1999 shape then the Canadians would challenge , but probably just fall short of, first. At 07:20 PM 1/22/01 -0500, you wrote: >The "88" 4x4 wins (Everrett, Lewis, Robizine, Reynolds) >For the 4x1 who's going to beat Marsh, Burrell, Mitchell and Lewis would >probably run away with it.. the Burrell and Mitchell would ** blow out ** >Williams and Johnson so it's be over and Maurice couldn't make would >probably lose a meter to Carl anyway at the end. I think the "HSI" group >would battle it out for second with the Canadians -- especially in you put >Ben Johnson on leadoff. Now if you put Cason on the HSI squad (since he was >coached for a while by John Smith, I believe) they'd definately get the >silver. > >--Kebba > >>From: "Conway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Reply-To: "Conway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "T&FMail List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Subject: t-and-f: Relay Dream Teams - Part II >>Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:48:55 -0800 >> >>Now that everyone has had a chance to pick their own teams, following are >>some actual squads .. How do you think they would have preformed against >>each other ??? >> >>4x1 >> >>Mike Marsh / Leroy Burrell / Dennis Mitchell / Carl Lewis (37.40) >> >>Jon Drummond / Bernard Williams / Curtis Johnson / Maurice Green (37.65) >> >>Robert Esmie / Glenroy Gilbert / Bruny Surin / Donovan Bailey (37.69) >> >>Colin Jackson / Tony Jarrett / John Regis / Linford Christie (37.77) >> >>Bill Collins / Steve Riddick / Cliff Wiley / Steve Williams (38.03) >> >>Larry Black / Robert Taylor / Gerald Tinker / Eddie hart (38.19) >> >>Charles Greene / Mel Pender / Ronnie Ray Smith / Jim Hines (38.24) >> >> >> >>4x4 >> >>Jerome Young / Antonio Pettigrew / Tyree Washington / Michael Johnson >>(2:54.20) >> >>Andrew Valmon / Alvin Harrison / Derek Mills / Anthuan Maybank (2:55.99) >> >>Vince Mathews / Ron Freeman / Larry James / Lee Evans (2:56.16) >> >>Danny Everett / Steve Lewis / Kevin Robinzine / Butch Reynolds (2:56.16) >> >>Iwan Thomas / Jamie Baulch / Mark Richardson / Roger Black (2:56.60) >> >> >>The attempt in both cases was to find squads that did not have duplicate >>members .. Much harder in the 4x4 as MJ, Q. Watts, Steve Lewis, Danny >>Everett, and Andrew Valmon show up every where .. And rather than list my >>picks first I'll let others state their claims ... (Women later Darrell) .. >> >>Conway Hill >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> > >_ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
t-and-f: results from Ark. State ?
Anyone have results from the meet at Arkansas State University this weekend ? Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
t-and-f: Re: T&F IAAF Statement on Baumann
Did they use this rule against all of the athletes that competed in ALL of the meets that Butch Reynolds was in while under the SAME circumstances ? If not, it would be tough to use it now. It would look like some countries and athletes were getting preferential treatment. I read some reports about Germans referring to a similar case in which Butch Reynolds (USA) was allowed to compete nationally? Regards, Wilmar expected Rule 53.1(ii) of the IAAF Rules to be applied to any athlete who competed in the same competition as him. Rule 53.1(ii) states that any athlete who takes part in an event in which he knows another athlete to be ineligible under IAAF Rules is himself ineligible. This Rule now applies to Jan Fitschen, Carsten Schütz, Mario Kröckert, Filmon Ghirmai, Embaye Hedrit, Guido Streit, Dennis Pyka and Michael Fietz, all of whom chose to compete against the banned Mr Baumann in Dortmund. Under IAAF Rule 53.2, the length of ineligibility will be decided by the IAAF Council. Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games Coach,Field Events, University de Moncton NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor NB CSG web page http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/stuart/
