Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 9:06 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> W dniu 30.08.2017 o 20:45, Marc Gemis pisze:
>
>> My feeling is that my wallet will know the difference between shop clothes
>> and boutique.
>
>
> So maybe it's just "luxury" or "hand made" clothes (or both)?
>

No only that, a boutique usually sells more than just clothes
(jewellery, handbags, ...) and I assume you get a more personal
service as well than in the shop=clothes of large chains.
I don't understand the reason for having fashion, but even I know when
to use boutique (I think).

And for me a shoe store is not a clothes stores. That does not mean
that there might be clothes stores that sell some shoes or shoe stores
that have a limited about of clothing. Is a shoe store a
store=clothes; clothes=no; shoes=only stop ? Isn't that far fetched ?
I really do not understand why we try to have so much structure in our
tagging. Shoe store and boutique are normal English words. Please
allow us to use them instead of some handful of tags that try to turn
a clothes shop into a shoe store.

Yes, we can come up with (imho crazy) schema's such as Education 2.0,
but we need to keep it simple and let mappers use English words they
are familiar with.

If you want more structure, start defining a meta language in which
you can categorize all shops the way you want, but please do not
enforce a view with a lot of subtags onto the rest of the mappers.
I remember SK53 writing a blog post on how he groups stores for the
purpose he had at that time.

Unless you change your proposal to just changing shop=fashion (and I
still haven't seen really good arguments for that change -- and no, a
few male mappers that do not understand the current wiki definition is
not a good reason) my vote will be against your proposal.

regards

m.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 30.08.2017 o 20:33, marc marc pisze:

what's style=skate ? I don't understand this word 


Skateboarding fashion. Another example of fashion style could be punk 
fashion. I try to be inclusive with this subtag.



did you need to prefix all tag ?
could it be commodity:*=* ?


It could be anything if it's more clear. For example 
handmade=yes/no/only might be useful here, because not only clothes can 
be made this way.



a member of
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute_couture#Liste_des_membres
or same for worldwide shop


Shop types are not members of anything like that - and membership can 
come and go. But English Wikipedia definition sounds more promising:


"(the creation of) exclusive custom-fitted clothing"

So shop=clothes + handmade=yes probably. So what about tagging 
exclusive/luxury goods? Do we need it?


--
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 30.08.2017 o 20:45, Marc Gemis pisze:
I still have a bad feeling by this proposal. Some none experts do not 
understand the difference and decide to change the tagging. Why not 
asking owners of boutiques whether they see themselves as a sub 
category? Or ask more people that frequently shop in boutiques.


For the same reason we don't ask anybody else - we want some universal, 
easy to describe and objective properties. It's sometimes painful and 
not intuitive process to define the "simple" things that "everybody 
knows", but it helps to limit the inevitable mess when dealing with the 
whole world.


My feeling is that my wallet will know the difference between shop 
clothes and boutique.


So maybe it's just "luxury" or "hand made" clothes (or both)?

Shop boutique relates to shop clothes like restaurant relates to fast 
food imho. So I hope your next project is to merge those two.


If you ask McDonald's, they use a "restaurant" label - so much for 
asking operators...


As far as I remember the operational definition we use is if you pay 
before (fast food) or after (restaurant). This is very clear and 
objective rule for me. I just miss something more general when you don't 
know about payment (amenity=food?), but with shop=clothes + subtags it 
will be easy (just skip the subtags you're not sure about).


--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Marc Gemis]

I still have a bad feeling by this proposal. Some none experts do not
understand the difference and decide to change the tagging. Why not asking
owners of boutiques whether they see themselves as a sub category? Or ask
more people that frequently shop in boutiques.

My feeling is that my wallet will know the difference between shop clothes
and boutique.

Shop boutique relates to shop clothes like restaurant relates to fast food
imho. So I hope your next project is to merge those two.

Regards

m

Op 30 aug. 2017 20:18 schreef "Daniel Koć" :

> W dniu 30.08.2017 o 19:36, marc marc pisze:
>
>> Le 30. 08. 17 à 19:19, Daniel Koć a écrit :
>>
>>> That's why I haven't proposed an example value for it in my
>>> clothes/shoes subtag proposal
>>>
>> sorry I didn't see it. can you give me its url again ?
>>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%
> 3Dclothes_subtags
>
> shop=boutique with a meaning "haute couture" could be deprecated
>> only if it is a good subtag to use.
>> because in France, it is a specific type of high-range shop
>> as you can see in the english wikipedia page
>> maybe range=high or another word with this kind of meaning
>>
>
> But it's still not definied what "haute couture" means in turn - how can
> one describe it?
>
> Maybe this means simply clothes:style=elegant?
>
> --
> "Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O.
> Muzalyev]
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[marc marc]

Le 30. 08. 17 à 20:16, Daniel Koć a écrit :
> W dniu 30.08.2017 o 19:36, marc marc pisze:
>> Le 30. 08. 17 à 19:19, Daniel Koć a écrit :
>>> That's why I haven't proposed an example value for it in my
>>> clothes/shoes subtag proposal
>> sorry I didn't see it. can you give me its url again ?
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dclothes_subtags 
Thanks
what's style=skate ? I don't understand this word
did you need to prefix all tag ?
could it be commodity:*=* ?

>> shop=boutique with a meaning "haute couture" could be 
>> deprecated only if it is a good subtag to use.
>> because in France, it is a specific type of high-range shop
>> as you can see in the english wikipedia page
>> maybe range=high or another word with this kind of meaning
> But it's still not definied what "haute couture" means in turn
> how can one describe it?
a member of
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute_couture#Liste_des_membres
or same for worldwide shop

> Maybe this means simply clothes:style=elegant?

no, I could be casual or elegantIt's more handmade, high quality, expensive
maybe add a handmade tag and range tag
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 30.08.2017 o 19:36, marc marc pisze:

Le 30. 08. 17 à 19:19, Daniel Koć a écrit :

That's why I haven't proposed an example value for it in my
clothes/shoes subtag proposal

sorry I didn't see it. can you give me its url again ?


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dclothes_subtags


shop=boutique with a meaning "haute couture" could be deprecated
only if it is a good subtag to use.
because in France, it is a specific type of high-range shop
as you can see in the english wikipedia page
maybe range=high or another word with this kind of meaning


But it's still not definied what "haute couture" means in turn - how can 
one describe it?


Maybe this means simply clothes:style=elegant?

--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - River Classification

[Kevin Kenny]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> There's another, more general problem with making waterways network
> consistent. When there's a lake (or some other water reservoir), we don't
> tag a river running through it in general. Maybe we need some special role
> in relation:waterway (link) and waterway tagging (waterway=river_link,
> waterway=stream_link)? It would be probably useful for boat routing.

Ordinarily, I do tag the Thalweg as waterway=river, and then the outline
as waterway=riverbank (or natural=water water=lake, or landuse=reservoir
as appropriate). That appears to be what the Wiki recommends. I do
try to maintain a continuous flow line.

I haven't done a lot of waterway tagging, but I've certainly
done some repair of other people's accidents with the banks of major
rivers, and that's how I've done it. It seems to render appropriately, and
I've heard no complaints.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 30.08.2017 o 18:54, marc marc pisze:

But this doesn't answer the first question : what is a fashion shop ?
What store would like to say : we sell clothes that aren't "fashion"?
nearly none. maybe it could be moved to a subtag, making data more
usable for example query shop=clothes with "mid-range man wedding"


I have no idea what subtag should be used to describe it, probably 
because "fashion" is in general synonym of "clothing" (with some 
exceptions like workwear probably). Even clothing chains with "plain" 
stuff are designing it with every seasonal "collection".


That's why I haven't proposed an example value for it in my 
clothes/shoes subtag proposal and deprecate shop=fashion and 
shop=boutique as part of making things clear in this field.


--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[marc marc]

Le 30. 08. 17 à 18:20, Marc Gemis a écrit :
> shop=boutique is Q1068824 (see https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1068824) 
> and the label is how such a shop is called in each language.
> 
> But I have the impression that the French label & description for 
> this shop is incorrect in Wikidata. When I read the Dutch and English
> versions of Wikipedia linked by that Wikidata item, it's about
> clothes, juwelry & luxury goods. That is missing from both the French
> and English description. Probably the French label is wrong as well.

Yes, wikidata french label and description are wrong.I have send a email 
to the french-speaking mailing
Let us have a few days to find a translation that all agree.
it 'll be like :
shop=boutique : magasin de Haute couture
shop=fashion : magasin de vêtements et accessoires de mode

feel free to also fix label & description in other languages
with native speakers in these languages.

But this doesn't answer the first question : what is a fashion shop ?
What store would like to say : we sell clothes that aren't "fashion"?
nearly none. maybe it could be moved to a subtag, making data more 
usable for example query shop=clothes with "mid-range man wedding"
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - River Classification

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 30.08.2017 o 11:45, Ilya Zverev pisze:

Emmor, regarding the classification based on what mapper sees, it is hard to 
do. Because to make rivers into a network, you must consider the whole network. 
That's a bit like with highways: you cannot choose its type based only on what 
you see (except for highway=motorway, of course). My proposed classification 
requires only checking wikipedia or another source for river parameters. So I 
assume that is already much simpler that tagging highways, and would help map 
style authors and other data consumers a lot.


There's another, more general problem with making waterways network 
consistent. When there's a lake (or some other water reservoir), we 
don't tag a river running through it in general. Maybe we need some 
special role in relation:waterway (link) and waterway tagging 
(waterway=river_link, waterway=stream_link)? It would be probably useful 
for boat routing.


Or I miss something?

--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Marc Gemis]

Thanks Joost, you probably explained better what I wanted to say.

As for your blob=26, this is exactly what Wikidata does. shop=boutique
is Q1068824 (see https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1068824) and the label
is how such a shop is called in each language.

But I have the impression that the French label & description for this
shop is incorrect in Wikidata. When I read the Dutch and English
versions of Wikipedia linked by that Wikidata item, it's about
clothes, juwelry & luxury goods. That is missing from both the French
and English description. Probably the French label is wrong as well.

m.


On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 5:58 PM, joost schouppe
 wrote:
>>> Tagging is done in British-English, if the word used in the tagging
>>> means something else in your language, too bad.
>>
>>
>> I personally totally disagree with this opinion. You are confusing
>> signifier and signified. We all use English (I would not say the British
>> one, as soccer is an existing value, despite football has been created in
>> UK) because it is the current lingua franca. But we cannot map the whole
>> world with tagging concepts related only to the UK context. We need to be
>> firstly generic.
>
>
> I'm sorry if this is completely missing the point of what you were trying to
> say. If so, please elaborate and ignore the following.
>
> That tagging is done in British-English is not an opinion, but a statement
> of fact. In the OSM universe, the signifier almost always tells something
> about the signified. And it does this based on the British-English
> definition of the concept. This can be quite confusing for people elsewhere.
> A naive approach would be to look at the tag amenity=cafe and thinking this
> applies to the things you call café in your own language. In Flemish Dutch
> however, you have to ignore the fact that "amenity=cafe" sounds a lot like
> café, because in our use of the word, it clearly means amenity=pub. This is
> the basic reason we have a wiki, and the reason why editors (especially
> those oriented to inexperienced mappers) have user interfaces where the tags
> are hidden behind localised descriptions.
>
> So in fact the relation between signifier and signified is not necesary at
> all. We could as well write blob=26, if we have user interfaces describing
> what that means. In some cases, mappers have stretched the meaning of tags
> in such a way that the original relation between signifier and signified has
> been largely lost. A good example would be village_green. But that is not
> necessarily a problem, as it is the wiki that explains what a thing is, and
> not just the tag.
>
> Of course nobody is saying we should only map things where a British-English
> word can be found.
>
> --
> Joost Schouppe
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Marc Gemis]

> I personally totally disagree with this opinion. You are confusing signifier
> and signified. We all use English (I would not say the British one, as
> soccer is an existing value, despite football has been created in UK)
> because it is the current lingua franca. But we cannot map the whole world
> with tagging concepts related only to the UK context. We need to be firstly
> generic.


I just said that if you see boutique as value for the shop key, you
apply the EN-UK definition of boutique, not the French one, not the
German one, not whatever other language you speak.
IMHO you cannot reject a value for the shop tag (or any other tag
besides names, description, inscription) because it means something
else in your language.

And yes there are a few tags that got created that should have been
defined using the EN-UK word instead of the UK-US word.
But that is no reason to say that new tags should not follow the EN-UK
dictionary.

And it is likely that some words do not translate well or does not
exist in EN-UK and for those we need to find a solution (e.g.
school:FR) But that's another topic.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[joost schouppe]

>
> Tagging is done in British-English, if the word used in the tagging
>> means something else in your language, too bad.
>
>
> I personally totally disagree with this opinion. You are confusing
> signifier and signified. We all use English (I would not say the British
> one, as soccer is an existing value, despite football has been created in
> UK) because it is the current lingua franca. But we cannot map the whole
> world with tagging concepts related only to the UK context. We need to be
> firstly generic.
>

I'm sorry if this is completely missing the point of what you were trying
to say. If so, please elaborate and ignore the following.

That tagging is done in British-English is not an opinion, but a statement
of fact. In the OSM universe, the signifier almost always tells something
about the signified. And it does this based on the British-English
definition of the concept. This can be quite confusing for people
elsewhere. A naive approach would be to look at the tag amenity=cafe and
thinking this applies to the things you call café in your own language. In
Flemish Dutch however, you have to ignore the fact that "amenity=cafe"
sounds a lot like café, because in our use of the word, it clearly means
amenity=pub. This is the basic reason we have a wiki, and the reason why
editors (especially  those oriented to inexperienced mappers) have user
interfaces where the tags are hidden behind localised descriptions.

So in fact the relation between signifier and signified is not necesary at
all. We could as well write blob=26, if we have user interfaces describing
what that means. In some cases, mappers have stretched the meaning of tags
in such a way that the original relation between signifier and signified
has been largely lost. A good example would be village_green. But that is
not necessarily a problem, as it is the wiki that explains what a thing is,
and not just the tag.

Of course nobody is saying we should only map things where a
British-English word can be found.

-- 
Joost Schouppe
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[Tagging] shop=fashion

[Severin Menard]

> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:35:14 +0200
> From: Marc Gemis 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion
> Message-ID:
> 

[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Language information)

[Lukas Sommer]

Voting at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Language_information
is open.

-- 
Lukas Sommer

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[marc marc]

Simon Poole a écrit :
>>> Translations for shop=boutique
>>> iD: Petit magasin de mode
 >> JOSM uses "Haute Couture"
 > on the OSM website, fixed that too.
1) for boutique :
We need a specific criterion to describe this tag
Ask the french mailing to agree on a common translation
for iD / wiki / Josm is easy, when you know what
you want to translate :)
Small or not (for me, it is not the criterion)
Luxury or not (it seems to the criterion in the english wiki page)

2) for fashion
What store would like to say : we sell clothes that aren't "fashion"?
nearly none.

3) french translation
"Haute Couture" is really far away from "Petit magasin de mode"
for me, as native french speaker,
shop=boutique : magasin de Haute couture
shop=fashion : magasin de vêtements et accessoires de mode
I'll ask french mailing
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - building:architecture:preromanesque

[marc marc]

> El 24/8/2017 12:41, "Andy Townsend" escribió:
> if you find a tag useful, just use it (and
> if it's not documented, document it).
+1
There was no opposition
It is a good idea to have spoken here,
but the vote seems useless on this very specialized point
so just do it :)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - building:architecture:preromanesque

[Andy Townsend]

On 30/08/2017 10:38, José G Moya Y. wrote:

So you think I can add this tag to the wiki without prior voting?


Yes, although I'd definitely use https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ 
first to see if anyone is using another tag to try and express the same 
idea.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - River Classification

[Ilya Zverev]

> I originally thought i'd stay out of these discussions on importance tags for 
> rivers (because in the end i don't think there is anything to be gained from 
> it) but this is just too good an opportunity, in particular to ask a former 
> Saint-Petersburg resident: So the Neva: 

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neva_River
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2811903

> should be tagged river=small?

Excellent question Christoph. It made me rethink the thresholds for river 
sizes, and now they include basin areas and a requirement of rivers forming a 
network with increasing size.

So the Neva River has a very large drainage basin, way over 15000 km², which 
makes it big. Also, the Volkhov River, 224 km in length, is in its basin, so 
the category cannot be less than "big".

Emmor, regarding the classification based on what mapper sees, it is hard to 
do. Because to make rivers into a network, you must consider the whole network. 
That's a bit like with highways: you cannot choose its type based only on what 
you see (except for highway=motorway, of course). My proposed classification 
requires only checking wikipedia or another source for river parameters. So I 
assume that is already much simpler that tagging highways, and would help map 
style authors and other data consumers a lot.

Ilya
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - building:architecture:preromanesque

[José G Moya Y .]

So you think I can add this tag to the wiki without prior voting?

El 24/8/2017 12:41, "Andy Townsend"  escribió:

> On 18/08/2017 10:22, José G Moya Y. wrote:
>
>
> In my country, this tag could be used to describe "mozarabic" buildings
> along with "visigothic" buildings. I hope this be useful to other european
> countries, too.
>
>
> Personally, I'd say that if you find a tag useful, just use it (and if
> it's not documented, document it).  If it takes off and other mappers use
> it too then data consumers will also use it.
>
> This is especially the case with "niche" tags which the majority of
> mappers won't understand, and for which any wiki "votes" won't be
> meaningful for that reason.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Andy Townsend]

On 30/08/2017 09:01, Marc Gemis wrote:

It would be nice if shop=boutique would show an icon with clothes or
something similar instead of a dot on the default osm-style. So people
would see they made a mistake.

Now the that style is using lua it should be easier for them to process 
the data a bit more sensibly before throwing it at Carto CSS / Mapnik.


https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=21=52.9208316=-1.4780079 



does exactly that, based on processing here:

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L1390 



Best Regards,

Andy

(2nd time lucky, this time to the list, not just Marc)


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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Simon Poole]

The other place where shop=boutique was translated to Boutique was on
the OSM website, fixed that too.


Am 30.08.2017 um 11:09 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> Sorry that was wrong, JOSM uses "Haute Couture"
>
>
> Am 30.08.2017 um 11:05 schrieb Simon Poole:
>>
>> Translations for shop=boutique
>>
>> iD: Petit magasin de mode
>>
>> JOSM: Boutique
>>
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> PS: vespucci didn't have a translation, now it is the same as iD
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Simon Poole]

Sorry that was wrong, JOSM uses "Haute Couture"


Am 30.08.2017 um 11:05 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> Translations for shop=boutique
>
> iD: Petit magasin de mode
>
> JOSM: Boutique
>
>
> Simon
>
> PS: vespucci didn't have a translation, now it is the same as iD
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Simon Poole]

Translations for shop=boutique

iD: Petit magasin de mode

JOSM: Boutique


Simon

PS: vespucci didn't have a translation, now it is the same as iD



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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[marc marc]

> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rkV
>> I guarantee that every single one of these shop=boutique in the Dakar
>> Peninsula are these shop=(convenience|kiosk) that most French-speaking
>> West-Africans name "boutique"

Le 30. 08. 17 à 10:01, Marc Gemis a écrit :
 > It would be nice if shop=boutique would show an icon with clothes
 > orsomething similar instead of a dot on the default osm-style.
 > So people would see they made a mistake.

+1
and maybe also look which editor has been used,
it may be missing a translation in the editor
and/or in the wiki
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Simon Poole]

Am 30.08.2017 um 10:01 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> It would be nice if shop=boutique would show an icon with clothes or
> something similar instead of a dot on the default osm-style. So people
> would see they made a mistake.

Not only that.  Any translations and the like should (naturally) give a
name/description in the language that is appropriate.  With other words
using "boutique" as the French translation of shop=boutique would be a
bad idea and I'm wondering if we have this problem with some of the
editors, or if there are other reasons why there is so much confusion,.

Simon

>
> m.
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>> (late message because antispam rejected before)
>>
>> On 2017-08-29 19:27, Severin Menard wrote:
>>> In French-speaking African countries, this generic word is massively
>>> used for the most generic shop by far: a small convenience store,
>>> selling food and non food items all over the walls, up to the
>>> ceiling, where you ask at a desk what you want. This makes it a kind
>>> of kiosk, even if many are not separate shops but taking one part of
>>> the basement of a building. And they are not chic at all. And they
>>> are very, very numerous: in a large city you find one every 50 or 100
>>> meters. For sure there are more African boutiques in the world than
>>> the boutiques of hand-made fashion clothes. Of course, new African
>>> contributors in these countries logically use shop=boutique for their
>>> own cultural reality so some streets in Africa are full of
>>> false-cognates.
>> Here is what Séverin is talking about: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rkV
>> I guarantee that every single one of these shop=boutique in the Dakar
>> Peninsula are these shop=(convenience|kiosk) that most French-speaking
>> West-Africans name "boutique". We regularly correct them but they
>> sprout even faster - so much that it may indeed be argued that we
>> should go with the flow.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Marc Gemis]

It would be nice if shop=boutique would show an icon with clothes or
something similar instead of a dot on the default osm-style. So people
would see they made a mistake.

m.

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
> (late message because antispam rejected before)
>
> On 2017-08-29 19:27, Severin Menard wrote:
>>
>> In French-speaking African countries, this generic word is massively
>> used for the most generic shop by far: a small convenience store,
>> selling food and non food items all over the walls, up to the
>> ceiling, where you ask at a desk what you want. This makes it a kind
>> of kiosk, even if many are not separate shops but taking one part of
>> the basement of a building. And they are not chic at all. And they
>> are very, very numerous: in a large city you find one every 50 or 100
>> meters. For sure there are more African boutiques in the world than
>> the boutiques of hand-made fashion clothes. Of course, new African
>> contributors in these countries logically use shop=boutique for their
>> own cultural reality so some streets in Africa are full of
>> false-cognates.
>
> Here is what Séverin is talking about: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rkV
> I guarantee that every single one of these shop=boutique in the Dakar
> Peninsula are these shop=(convenience|kiosk) that most French-speaking
> West-Africans name "boutique". We regularly correct them but they
> sprout even faster - so much that it may indeed be argued that we
> should go with the flow.
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

(late message because antispam rejected before)

On 2017-08-29 19:27, Severin Menard wrote:
>
> In French-speaking African countries, this generic word is massively
> used for the most generic shop by far: a small convenience store,
> selling food and non food items all over the walls, up to the
> ceiling, where you ask at a desk what you want. This makes it a kind
> of kiosk, even if many are not separate shops but taking one part of
> the basement of a building. And they are not chic at all. And they
> are very, very numerous: in a large city you find one every 50 or 100
> meters. For sure there are more African boutiques in the world than
> the boutiques of hand-made fashion clothes. Of course, new African
> contributors in these countries logically use shop=boutique for their
> own cultural reality so some streets in Africa are full of
> false-cognates.  

Here is what Séverin is talking about: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rkV
I guarantee that every single one of these shop=boutique in the Dakar
Peninsula are these shop=(convenience|kiosk) that most French-speaking
West-Africans name "boutique". We regularly correct them but they
sprout even faster - so much that it may indeed be argued that we
should go with the flow.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Pander]

Hi all,

I am not in favour of possible confusing meanings of names of tages and values 
in other languages than English influence these. Otherwise there is no end to 
this. Better add properly translated pages to the wiki.

Best,

Pander

On August 30, 2017 9:37:50 AM GMT+02:00, Simon Poole  wrote:
>I'm afraid we would start running out of usable words real fast if we
>could only use those with non-confusing meanings in their original and
>other languages (maybe Kindergarten, oh perhaps rather not :-)).
>
>Seriously the term boutique is so firmly anchored in the English
>language that doing away with the term in OSM is likely not going to
>work. As to Daniels suggestion of adding more subtags, it doesn't seem
>to be sensible to replace the existing clothes tag with clothes:type
>(minus a couple of values) just so that things are a bit more
>systematic. Adding the others, and using them on boutique, fashion and
>clothes (plus the other garment related top level objects) why not.
>
>Naturally in the end this doesn't actually answer my question as to
>what
>the defining aspects of shop=fashion are :-).
>
>Simon
>
>Am 29.08.2017 um 19:27 schrieb Severin Menard:
>> Hi,
>>
>> IMHO, I would drop shop=boutique because it is one of the most
>> confusing tag, especially in French-speaking contexts.
>>
>> Basically in French from France, boutique is a generic word meaning
>> shop. More than what it sells, it designates the place, generally not
>> very large ("magasin" would then more used). A French butcher tells
>to
>> his/her family after the breakfast: "Have a good day everyonem, I
>will
>> open the boutique now". We have an expression for "boutique de"
>> (literally shop of) something, that can be used for clothes from
>which
>> I guess derivates the shop=boutique concept. Is it only in the
>> Anglo-sphere that the word boutique means this or also in other
>> cultural contexts? Eg in Brazil as far as I know people do not use
>> boutique, while they are quite fond of French words (like maison
>> meaning house) for shops that want to be considered as "chique".
>>
>> In French-speaking African countries, this generic word is massively
>> used for the most generic shop by far: a small convenience store,
>> selling food and non food items all over the walls, up to the
>ceiling,
>> where you ask at a desk what you want. This makes it a kind of kiosk,
>> even if many are not separate shops but taking one part of the
>> basement of a building. And they are not chic at all. And they are
>> very, very numerous: in a large city you find one every 50 or 100
>> meters. For sure there are more African boutiques in the world than
>> the boutiques of hand-made fashion clothes. Of course, new African
>> contributors in these countries logically use shop=boutique for their
>> own cultural reality so some streets in Africa are full of
>false-cognates.
>>
>> So IMHO I would tag these fashionable shop the most generic way as
>> possible, not reflecting only one specific cultural context and
>> avoiding using boutique. I think a subtag to differentiate
>> ready-to-wear and hand-made would fit. What do you think?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Severin
>>
>>
>> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:42:38 +1000
>> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick > >
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>>         >
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion
>> Message-ID:
>>        
>>
>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Just consulted with an authority in these matters - my wife! :-)
>>
>> Her take:
>>
>> shop=clothes is chain stores (ie same shop in multiple shopping
>> centres /
>> towns) aimed at lower-middle end of the market
>>
>> shop=fashion is middle - higher end, but still chain stores
>>
>> shop=boutique is "one-off" shops eg selling hand-made rather than
>> mass-produced clothes; niche / speciality items etc
>>
>> Hope that helps?
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion

[Simon Poole]

I'm afraid we would start running out of usable words real fast if we
could only use those with non-confusing meanings in their original and
other languages (maybe Kindergarten, oh perhaps rather not :-)).

Seriously the term boutique is so firmly anchored in the English
language that doing away with the term in OSM is likely not going to
work. As to Daniels suggestion of adding more subtags, it doesn't seem
to be sensible to replace the existing clothes tag with clothes:type
(minus a couple of values) just so that things are a bit more
systematic. Adding the others, and using them on boutique, fashion and
clothes (plus the other garment related top level objects) why not.

Naturally in the end this doesn't actually answer my question as to what
the defining aspects of shop=fashion are :-).

Simon

Am 29.08.2017 um 19:27 schrieb Severin Menard:
> Hi,
>
> IMHO, I would drop shop=boutique because it is one of the most
> confusing tag, especially in French-speaking contexts.
>
> Basically in French from France, boutique is a generic word meaning
> shop. More than what it sells, it designates the place, generally not
> very large ("magasin" would then more used). A French butcher tells to
> his/her family after the breakfast: "Have a good day everyonem, I will
> open the boutique now". We have an expression for "boutique de"
> (literally shop of) something, that can be used for clothes from which
> I guess derivates the shop=boutique concept. Is it only in the
> Anglo-sphere that the word boutique means this or also in other
> cultural contexts? Eg in Brazil as far as I know people do not use
> boutique, while they are quite fond of French words (like maison
> meaning house) for shops that want to be considered as "chique".
>
> In French-speaking African countries, this generic word is massively
> used for the most generic shop by far: a small convenience store,
> selling food and non food items all over the walls, up to the ceiling,
> where you ask at a desk what you want. This makes it a kind of kiosk,
> even if many are not separate shops but taking one part of the
> basement of a building. And they are not chic at all. And they are
> very, very numerous: in a large city you find one every 50 or 100
> meters. For sure there are more African boutiques in the world than
> the boutiques of hand-made fashion clothes. Of course, new African
> contributors in these countries logically use shop=boutique for their
> own cultural reality so some streets in Africa are full of false-cognates.
>
> So IMHO I would tag these fashionable shop the most generic way as
> possible, not reflecting only one specific cultural context and
> avoiding using boutique. I think a subtag to differentiate
> ready-to-wear and hand-made would fit. What do you think?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Severin
>
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:42:38 +1000
> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick  >
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>         >
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] shop=fashion
> Message-ID:
>        
>  
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi
>
> Just consulted with an authority in these matters - my wife! :-)
>
> Her take:
>
> shop=clothes is chain stores (ie same shop in multiple shopping
> centres /
> towns) aimed at lower-middle end of the market
>
> shop=fashion is middle - higher end, but still chain stores
>
> shop=boutique is "one-off" shops eg selling hand-made rather than
> mass-produced clothes; niche / speciality items etc
>
> Hope that helps?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
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