Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[John Willis via Tagging]

>> longish off topic discussions

You can not get context nor understand the usage situations in other regions 
without this. 

If you want to tag just England, then the tags definitions will match 
everyone’s expectations. 

Trying to map Africa, SE asia, and America with the same tags is virtually 
impossible unless context is understood and varying definitions and situation 
are understood and integrated. 

these discussions allow for that context to be gleaned. 

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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[John Willis via Tagging]

in your email program of choice, sort anything with the tagging address in it 
into a separate folder. 

you can also thread your email and follow what you are interested in / have 
valid input in. 
> 
> horse mounting blocks


I can safely ignore horse mounting blocks until voting because I have no 
constructive input. 

I merely follow the threads I am interested in - no one has to read everything. 

Reading a proposal page takes a negligible amount of time, as does voting. 

limiting talking because there is so many emails means you need to configure 
your email application better (PC, phone/broswer).

DO NOT LIMIT DISCUSSION. Don’t feel you need to be part of every discussion. 

The easy tags are done and gone. The rest is ever increasing levels of minutia 
let by people in ever-smaller niche interests and more technical input. 

this means many smaller discussions. 

The exception is repairing bad tagging decisions of the past (for me 
personally, removing highway=path). 

This means there will be big, wide ranging discussions mixed in with smaller 
niche discussions.

The only email based solution is to break tagging up into several mailing lists 
- roads / buildings / areas / amenities / etc - and I don't see that working. 

Thread it and give input where you like. 


Javbw. 



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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Warin]

On 02/06/19 20:10, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 6/2/19 10:47, Simon Poole wrote:

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

- not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)


That limits discussion, some of which could be very usefull.

Rather it would be better to encourage the subject field modified to identify 
that divergence from the original subject.



- not more than one proposal per person per month

- not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

- propose tags only if you, personally, have solid demand for it (i.e.
you have already mapped, or intend to map, the feature intensively).
This puts a practical limit to idle tag fantasising. Everyone can think
of something that doesn't have a tag yet - that is the cheap part...


There are people who don't use this list that map things that are not 
documented.
As there is more than one of them they tag the same things with different 
methods... e.g. my recent 'horse mounting blocks'.
I propose it simply to combine these features under one tag rather than let 
them run wild with all sorts of tags.
To ban this effort of combining features under on tag to reduce the number of 
proposals so that people here have a quieter life?
I prefer to organise them ... I like order as it aids memory, learning and 
therefore mapping.

If you want to limit the number of proposals per month then form a queue...
I have a number of proposals that are simply waiting for my attention... 'horse 
mounting blocks' being but one of them.


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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Dave F via Tagging]

(not read the whole thread as there are far too many from you, Simon.)

What is WMF ?

When you say "not posting more than 30 times per month" do you mean 
thread starts or are you including responses?


Never understood the criticism of "noise" - if you don't like it, ignore 
it.


These are forums for discussion. They can go on a bit. Get over it.

DaveF

On 02/06/2019 09:47, Simon Poole wrote:

As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.

Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of proposals
and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the increase
in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for obvious
flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current rate
of a new proposal every second day.

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

- not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)

- not more than one proposal per person per month

- not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Simon




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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Valor Naram]

Yes it would work and I would highly appreciate it because it's easier for me to maintain a discussion page than a discussion on a mailing list. A discussion page gives me more control of the discussion itself which is needed for moderating.CheersSören alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging listFrom: Graeme Fitzpatrick To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Maybe we don't hold discussions on the list, but only have them on the discussion page of the proposal?Post to the list to say:Title: Proposal re I've come up with a proposal for Link: yPossibly include a brief synopsis of the proposal, but that should be on the proposal itself, so maybe not required?Then everybody comments on the discussion page.That page could get quite long, but should also be able to be laid out so that comments are grouped togetherPart AMy explanation    Your comment          My reply                Their comment                         Your response                               My amendmentPart BMy explanation      Etc2 weeks later, reply to your own original post to say "Voting now open - link x"Carrying on with that idea, if you've come up with possible changes to an existing tag, then post as Proposed changes to xxBrief explanationLinkSo if anybody is interested in telephone lines, underground waterways, police facilities etc, they can go to that page & discuss it, but if they're not, they don't!The mailing list should then become a concise index of what proposals are going through.Would that all work?ThanksGraeme

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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Maybe we don't hold discussions on the list, but only have them on the
discussion page of the proposal?

Post to the list to say:
Title: Proposal re 

I've come up with a proposal for 

Link: y

Possibly include a brief synopsis of the proposal, but that should be on
the proposal itself, so maybe not required?

Then everybody comments on the discussion page.

That page could get quite long, but should also be able to be laid out so
that comments are grouped together
Part A
My explanation
Your comment
  My reply
Their comment
 Your response
   My amendment
Part B
My explanation
  Etc

2 weeks later, reply to your own original post to say "Voting now open -
link x"

Carrying on with that idea, if you've come up with possible changes to an
existing tag, then post as

Proposed changes to xx

Brief explanation

Link

So if anybody is interested in telephone lines, underground waterways,
police facilities etc, they can go to that page & discuss it, but if
they're not, they don't!

The mailing list should then become a concise index of what proposals are
going through.

Would that all work?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Use of tags land_area=administrative and type=land_area?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Jun 2019, at 02:29, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
> 
> The tag type=land_area is used on only 187 relations, although it has
> been mentioned on the Relation:boundary page for years. Perhaps it is
> only being used for admin_level=2 borders?
> 
> Is this tag being used by any database users?


not sure it is used by any consumer, but it shouldn’t be impossible to generate 
it automatically if needed, you only would have to exclude the territorial 
waters from the country.
I would support a proposal which drops these and asks people to refrain from 
mapping them explicitly.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Underground Mall entrances?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 2. Jun 2019, at 14:33, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:

>> If you want to go to this level of detail, you should be mapping the
> structure that the door is in too.
> 
> I'm thinking of underground malls in Singapore which are accessed from
> escalators and stairs in the sidewalk or within the atrium of a tower
> - similar to a subway entrance.


the situation is similar, you have to decide whether the mall extends to these 
escalators, or if they go down to the mall and the entrance is only at the 
lower level, in any case it seems to make sense to map these escalators or 
elevators or stairs.

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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[marc marc]

Le 02.06.19 à 10:47, Simon Poole a écrit :
> I would suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

I will add the suggestion of a useful quoting.
a 4-sheet reply where you have to find in it the only line
that is not a quote, it's indigestible, a waste of time and clarity

Le 02.06.19 à 13:17, Christoph Hormann a écrit :
 > Any rate limitation to the proposal process would IMO
 > need to go with a clear agreement that the proposal
 > process is optional for creating a new tag.

I have 3 propals on standby, given the volume, I prefer to wait until
it calms down because human time is limited. why it is a problem ?
of on the contrary, it is in my opinion the best thing to do for
the propal process to lead to an increase in quality, which requires 
that the community has time to devote to it

Regards,
Marc who will also try to make it shorter
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.06.2019 um 17:36 schrieb osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au:
> I've just checked the history, and as far as I can tell, there has been a 
> grand total of just 15 proposals put to voting since the beginning of the 
> year (5 months, so 3 per month on avg.)

There were ~16 new proposals last month, which compared to 3, shows just
why I'm making this suggestion.

Simon

 

>
> Also, even with all the noise, there have been only about 28 messages per day 
> on avg, which is less then most other mailing lists and forums I follow.
>
> I agree that there has been some unnecessary noise, most of it caused by less 
> than a handful of people.
>
> Overall, I don't think there is any issue here that needs to be urgently 
> addressed.
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Simon Poole 
>> Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2019 18:48
>> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>> 
>> Subject: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of
>> the tagging list
>>
>> As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.
>>
>> Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
>> somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of
>> proposals and comments on these. As these typically will require
>> looking at the proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and
>> here, the increase in noise has led to even a cursory examination of
>> proposals for obvious flaws (see the police proposal) not being
>> possible at the current rate of a new proposal every second day.
>>
>> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
>> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>>
>> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the
>> WMF mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>>
>> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>>
>> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total
>>
>> Simon
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[osm.tagging]

I've just checked the history, and as far as I can tell, there has been a grand 
total of just 15 proposals put to voting since the beginning of the year (5 
months, so 3 per month on avg.)

Also, even with all the noise, there have been only about 28 messages per day 
on avg, which is less then most other mailing lists and forums I follow.

I agree that there has been some unnecessary noise, most of it caused by less 
than a handful of people.

Overall, I don't think there is any issue here that needs to be urgently 
addressed.

> -Original Message-
> From: Simon Poole 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2019 18:48
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> Subject: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of
> the tagging list
> 
> As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.
> 
> Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
> somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of
> proposals and comments on these. As these typically will require
> looking at the proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and
> here, the increase in noise has led to even a cursory examination of
> proposals for obvious flaws (see the police proposal) not being
> possible at the current rate of a new proposal every second day.
> 
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
> 
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the
> WMF mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
> 
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
> 
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total
> 
> Simon
> 




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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.06.2019 um 15:41 schrieb Paul Allen:
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 14:17, Simon Poole  > wrote:
>
> Am 02.06.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Paul Allen:
>>
>> As I already said, I understand your frustration. 
>
> No, obviously you don't.
>
>
> Really?  You looked inside my head and determined that I do not
> understand your frustration.
> And here I was thinking that I merely disagreed with your proposed
> solution.  That just goes to
> show how stupid I am, right?
>
> There is just no way the community can handle a dozen or more
> proposals per month in any reasonable fashion,
>
> That's an interesting assertion.  I'm not convinced the evidence backs
> it up, but I'll assume
> (for the sake of argument) that you're right.  So now what?  We refuse
> to deal with the 13th
> proposal in a month so the proposer invents an ill-conceived tag and
> uses it.  Until and
> unless you can put a mechanism in place that prevents people inventing
> tags and using
> them without discussing them on the list first, this is not a good
> idea.  Hint: I use `12 of my
> 30 posts/month proposing whimsical tags, so that the tag I really want
> to use is not
> subject to discussion so I'm free to use it anyway.

As Frederik has already pointed out, a proposal and the perhaps the
following "stamp of approval" is not necessary for using a tag, some
documentation would be nice but not required. So nothing in my
suggestion limits which tags can be used, it just rate limits the influx
of proposals that actually want attention, so they can actually get it.

Simon


> essentially it is just gaming the system in another way than
> wikifiddiling.
>
> It appears you believe people are deliberately making proposals to
> game the system.  I'm
> far from convinced that is the case.  But if you're right about people
> acting in bad faith, I'd
> already thought of two ways people can game your proposal before you
> replied to me, and I
> wasn't even putting any effort into trying to find flaws like that. 
> Your proposal won't stop people
> gaming the system (if anybody actually is gaming the system), it will
> just change the tactics.
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 14:17, Simon Poole  wrote:

Am 02.06.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Paul Allen:
>
>
> As I already said, I understand your frustration.
>
> No, obviously you don't.
>

Really?  You looked inside my head and determined that I do not understand
your frustration.
And here I was thinking that I merely disagreed with your proposed
solution.  That just goes to
show how stupid I am, right?

There is just no way the community can handle a dozen or more proposals per
> month in any reasonable fashion,
>
That's an interesting assertion.  I'm not convinced the evidence backs it
up, but I'll assume
(for the sake of argument) that you're right.  So now what?  We refuse to
deal with the 13th
proposal in a month so the proposer invents an ill-conceived tag and uses
it.  Until and
unless you can put a mechanism in place that prevents people inventing tags
and using
them without discussing them on the list first, this is not a good idea.
Hint: I use `12 of my
30 posts/month proposing whimsical tags, so that the tag I really want to
use is not
subject to discussion so I'm free to use it anyway.

> essentially it is just gaming the system in another way than wikifiddiling.
>
It appears you believe people are deliberately making proposals to game the
system.  I'm
far from convinced that is the case.  But if you're right about people
acting in bad faith, I'd
already thought of two ways people can game your proposal before you
replied to me, and I
wasn't even putting any effort into trying to find flaws like that.  Your
proposal won't stop people
gaming the system (if anybody actually is gaming the system), it will just
change the tactics.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.06.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Paul Allen:
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 09:49, Simon Poole  > wrote:
>
>
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>
>
> [...]
>
> I don't doubt your frustration or your good intentions, but it seems
> possible that this thread
> will generate a large volume of increasingly heated responses, making
> the list even more
> annoying (at least until it all dies down).  Not your intention, but a
> possible outcome.
>
> Others have already mentioned problems with your suggestions, and no
> doubt many
> more will do so.  I'm in broad agreement with those objections.
>
> As I already said, I understand your frustration. 

No, obviously you don't.

There is just no way the community can handle a dozen or more proposals
per month in any reasonable fashion, essentially it is just gaming the
system in another way than wikifiddiling. BTW I've used threaded mail
clients for a couple of decades and that is not the problem either or
the volume that the bike sheding which is to be expected due to the
subject matter tends to produce

Simon

> The best solution is a mail client capable of
> filtering out threads or people you feel are not worth your
> attention.  It's not an ideal solution
> because you will miss things that way - somebody raises a good point
> in an ignored thread
> or somebody you ignored because you almost always disagree with that
> person says
> something worth while.
>
> Downsides of filtering: you may still see snippets of somebody you've
> blacklisted when
> another person quotes them.  You may see an ignored thread reappear
> because of
> people not threading their replies correctly.
>
> Upside of filtering: you may still see the few good contributions from
> somebody you've
> blacklisted when that person gets quoted by somebody else.
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 13:39, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

>
> On 6/2/19 13:17, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > Note there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag
> > without creating a proposal is not desirable
>
> That is also my opinion, however, I don't see anything wrong with
> someone just "trying out" a tag in the "any tags you like" spirit
> without documenting it. (Or, if desperately needed, documenting it only
> on their private user page.)
>

I have come to the conclusion (possibly a wrong conclusion) that this list
isn't about
enforcement but about advice.  The spirit of OSM is that you CAN create any
tag you want.
However, discussing it here and then making a proposal (that is approved)
means you're
more likely to create a tag that isn't problematic in some way.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 09:49, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>

[...]

I don't doubt your frustration or your good intentions, but it seems
possible that this thread
will generate a large volume of increasingly heated responses, making the
list even more
annoying (at least until it all dies down).  Not your intention, but a
possible outcome.

Others have already mentioned problems with your suggestions, and no doubt
many
more will do so.  I'm in broad agreement with those objections.

As I already said, I understand your frustration.  The best solution is a
mail client capable of
filtering out threads or people you feel are not worth your attention.
It's not an ideal solution
because you will miss things that way - somebody raises a good point in an
ignored thread
or somebody you ignored because you almost always disagree with that person
says
something worth while.

Downsides of filtering: you may still see snippets of somebody you've
blacklisted when
another person quotes them.  You may see an ignored thread reappear because
of
people not threading their replies correctly.

Upside of filtering: you may still see the few good contributions from
somebody you've
blacklisted when that person gets quoted by somebody else.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 6/2/19 13:17, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> Note there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag 
> without creating a proposal is not desirable

That is also my opinion, however, I don't see anything wrong with
someone just "trying out" a tag in the "any tags you like" spirit
without documenting it. (Or, if desperately needed, documenting it only
on their private user page.)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Underground Mall entrances?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> layer is a rendering hint and only indicates the position relative to
> over (or under) laying objects.
> level is the tag used to indicate position within/relative to a
> buildings floors.

Thank you for the correction: level is the right tag.

> If you want to go to this level of detail, you should be mapping the
structure that the door is in too.

I'm thinking of underground malls in Singapore which are accessed from
escalators and stairs in the sidewalk or within the atrium of a tower
- similar to a subway entrance.

On 6/2/19, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> Am 02.06.2019 um 07:37 schrieb Joseph Eisenberg:
>> Underground malls are often mapped with location=underground and
>> layer=-1 and more negative values can be used for the underground
>> levels of features within the mall.
>
> layer is a rendering hint and only indicates the position relative to
> over (or under) laying objects.
>
> level is the tag used to indicate position within/relative to a
> buildings floors.
>
>>
>> But how should we specify the location of an entrance to the underground
>> mall?
>>
>> There is an amenity=parking_entrance tag for the entrance of an
>> underground (or aboveground) parking structure, which allows routing
>> and rendering applications to show this location specifically.
>>
>> It could be useful to map the location of the mall entrances, both for
>> underground malls and large above-ground malls, so that the main mall
>> entrances can be located separately from all the individual shop
>> entrances. T
>
> If you want to go to this level of detail, you should be mappign the
> structure that the door is in too.
>
>
>>
>> he tag indoor=yes can be used with entrance=yes to show that this door
>> is within the mall, but there isn't a specific way to show the main
>> entrance/exit from the whole shopping centre, when the outer way of
>> the area doesn't intersect with the entrance=yes node.
>>
>> This would be common with underground malls, where the entrance may be
>> inside of, or even outside of, the polygon that outlines the area of
>> the mall, because the escalators or stairs are usually not right at
>> the boundary.
>>
>> Would something like entrance=mall or mall=entrance work?
>>
>> Or do we need a subtag for entrance=yes?
>>
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Valor Naram]

We should also remember ourselves that we want to talk objectively about topics as often as possible and avoiding debates that are driving too emotional. Sure, everyone is free to express his/her subjective view but it shouldn't enlarge to a emotional debate like in thread https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045707.html and ongoing. I am talking about iD's validation rules and the discussion about it. At the end it drove to a emotional debate about how someone should behave and such debates aren't helpful in my point of view. Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging listFrom: Christoph Hormann To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: On Sunday 02 June 2019, Simon Poole wrote:>> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)>> - not more than one proposal per person per month>> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in totalNote there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag without creating a proposal is not desirable (see the "motorcycle:scale" thread earlier this year).  If you combine that with the limitation of the number of proposals that can be made you would essentially limit our base principle of "Any tags you like".In other words:  Any rate limitation to the proposal process would IMO need to go with a clear agreement that the proposal process is optional for creating a new tag.In the past i usually preferred the wiki for bringing up and discussing questions related to specific tags especially because it allowed for more selective participation in discussion.  But the introduction of bot edits into the wiki to me largely burnt the whole thing.  A clear agreement that the tagging documentation part of the wiki is humans only without using mechanical tools would therefore also help a lot. ;-)My own observation regarding the tagging list is that endless threads are much more annoying than the overall number of new subjects opened.  So having as a guiding principle the rule not to post more than two or three replies on the same subject could be useful.  It would encourage everyone to contemplate their replies more thoroughly and not engage in back-and forth two person dialogs - for which this kind of mailing list with a large number of subscribers is not really the ideal place.-- Christoph Hormannhttp://www.imagico.de/___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 02 June 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Note there have been in the past opinions that documenting a new tag 
without creating a proposal is not desirable (see 
the "motorcycle:scale" thread earlier this year).  If you combine that 
with the limitation of the number of proposals that can be made you 
would essentially limit our base principle of "Any tags you like".

In other words:  Any rate limitation to the proposal process would IMO 
need to go with a clear agreement that the proposal process is optional 
for creating a new tag.

In the past i usually preferred the wiki for bringing up and discussing 
questions related to specific tags especially because it allowed for 
more selective participation in discussion.  But the introduction of 
bot edits into the wiki to me largely burnt the whole thing.  A clear 
agreement that the tagging documentation part of the wiki is humans 
only without using mechanical tools would therefore also help a 
lot. ;-)

My own observation regarding the tagging list is that endless threads 
are much more annoying than the overall number of new subjects opened.  
So having as a guiding principle the rule not to post more than two or 
three replies on the same subject could be useful.  It would encourage 
everyone to contemplate their replies more thoroughly and not engage in 
back-and forth two person dialogs - for which this kind of mailing list 
with a large number of subscribers is not really the ideal place.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Andy Townsend]

On 02/06/2019 10:11, Jo wrote:
Who's going to keep the tally? Maybe we need an actual tool to help 
with this (I'm not proposing to write one or figure what could be used 
for doing so).


Create a shell script called something like "taglistpeople.sh" containing:

lynx -width=1024 --dump 
"https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/${1}-${2}/date.html#start; 
| grep "\[Tagging\]" | sed "s/.*  //" | sort | uniq -c | sort -n -r | 
head -20


then e.g. "taglistpeople.sh  2019 May"

(bugger - that's one of my 30)

Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Jun 2019, at 10:47, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
> 
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)


it might lead to longer posts in general. There are currently big differences 
in the structure of emails according to the author, some people commenting on a 
short quoted paragraph with a single sentence, while others posting long essays 
in reply to full quotation of preceding long essays.



> 
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
> 
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total


I’m against limiting the amount with hard numbers. These will always be 
arbitrary, and proposals are often covering very “specialist” topic in great 
detail. You do not have to follow everything, just follow those topics where 
you feel you have something to contribute. With just 4 proposals a month we 
would commonly run into situations where we limit contributions of new tagging 
proposals just because there are already proposals of underground waterways in 
pipes, utility poles, train safety systems and hydrant specifics proposed in 
the same month.

Cheers, Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 6/2/19 10:47, Simon Poole wrote:
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
> 
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
> 
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
> 
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

- propose tags only if you, personally, have solid demand for it (i.e.
you have already mapped, or intend to map, the feature intensively).
This puts a practical limit to idle tag fantasising. Everyone can think
of something that doesn't have a tag yet - that is the cheap part...

Bye
Frederik
-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"



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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Simon Poole]

I'm suggesting that everybody is grown up enough to self limit themselves. 
Outside of that, when in doubt a quick look at the months archive is all that 
is really needed.

Simon

Am 2. Juni 2019 11:11:36 MESZ schrieb Jo :
>Who's going to keep the tally? Maybe we need an actual tool to help
>with
>this (I'm not proposing to write one or figure what could be used for
>doing
>so). But what if the 4 proposals are reached? Or someone feels the need
>to
>post 40 comments during a month? How do we stop the flood?
>
>Polyglot
>
>On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 10:49 AM Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>> As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.
>>
>> Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
>> somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of
>proposals
>> and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
>> proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the
>increase
>> in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for
>obvious
>> flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current
>rate
>> of a new proposal every second day.
>>
>> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
>> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>>
>> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
>> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>>
>> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>>
>> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>

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Re: [Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Jo]

Who's going to keep the tally? Maybe we need an actual tool to help with
this (I'm not proposing to write one or figure what could be used for doing
so). But what if the 4 proposals are reached? Or someone feels the need to
post 40 comments during a month? How do we stop the flood?

Polyglot

On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 10:49 AM Simon Poole  wrote:

> As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.
>
> Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
> somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of proposals
> and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
> proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the increase
> in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for obvious
> flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current rate
> of a new proposal every second day.
>
> In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
> suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:
>
> - not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
> mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)
>
> - not more than one proposal per person per month
>
> - not more than 4 new proposals per month in total
>
> Simon
>
>
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>
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[Tagging] A modest proposal to increase the usefulness of the tagging list

[Simon Poole]

As a reader of this list I'm slightly overwhelmed by it right now.

Besides the longish off topic discussions that should have been held
somewhere else, we've had a massive increase in the number of proposals
and comments on these. As these typically will require looking at the
proposal, potentially commenting on its talk page and here, the increase
in noise has led to even a cursory examination of proposals for obvious
flaws (see the police proposal) not being possible at the current rate
of a new proposal every second day.

In the interest of keeping the list at least half usable, I would
suggest that we all, starting now, voluntarily submit to:

- not posting more than 30 times per month (the 30 comes from the WMF
mailing lists, where it seems to work quite well)

- not more than one proposal per person per month

- not more than 4 new proposals per month in total

Simon




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Re: [Tagging] Underground Mall entrances?

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.06.2019 um 07:37 schrieb Joseph Eisenberg:
> Underground malls are often mapped with location=underground and
> layer=-1 and more negative values can be used for the underground
> levels of features within the mall.

layer is a rendering hint and only indicates the position relative to
over (or under) laying objects.

level is the tag used to indicate position within/relative to a
buildings floors. 

>
> But how should we specify the location of an entrance to the underground mall?
>
> There is an amenity=parking_entrance tag for the entrance of an
> underground (or aboveground) parking structure, which allows routing
> and rendering applications to show this location specifically.
>
> It could be useful to map the location of the mall entrances, both for
> underground malls and large above-ground malls, so that the main mall
> entrances can be located separately from all the individual shop
> entrances. T

If you want to go to this level of detail, you should be mappign the
structure that the door is in too.


>
> he tag indoor=yes can be used with entrance=yes to show that this door
> is within the mall, but there isn't a specific way to show the main
> entrance/exit from the whole shopping centre, when the outer way of
> the area doesn't intersect with the entrance=yes node.
>
> This would be common with underground malls, where the entrance may be
> inside of, or even outside of, the polygon that outlines the area of
> the mall, because the escalators or stairs are usually not right at
> the boundary.
>
> Would something like entrance=mall or mall=entrance work?
>
> Or do we need a subtag for entrance=yes?
>
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