Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Warin]

On 22/06/19 11:24, marc marc wrote:

waiting areas often have specific locations
to charge electronic devices.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Ddevice_charging_station

  >  amenity=charging_station <> amenity=power_supply

some normal electrical outlets allow cars to be charged
and some charging terminals use normal outlets.

I think we're gonna to do it in two proposals:
- get amenity=power_supply adopted
- try to harmonize how the type of socket/plug is described.
socket key is probably the most successful but for charging stations,
the information is missing if it is a plug or a plug at the end of a
cable on the terminal side.


What is really being tagged here?

The socket.

So tag "electrical_socket=USB/*"??
That clearly says what it is, not a power generating station or some other 
thing that could be construed in to a 'power supply'.

Add tags access=customers/* fee=no/yes/* and
for the detailed types of mappers voltage=*, frequency=*.
The type of socket will usually determine the maximum current/power so I'd not 
tag that.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Feature Name)

[Joseph Eisenberg]

>  From my view,
> healthcare leads to use different kind of items, taking examples:
>
> healthcare=clinic is a type of healthcare facility, and
> healthcare=dentist is for me, a type of speciality.

The tag amenity=clinic (and the alternative but much less used
healthcare=clinic) defines a feature that is a general or specialty
clinic, usually staffed by several physicians, usually people with the
degree "M.D.".

Physicians ("doctors") can specialize in various fields after they
receive their medical degrees by going to a residency program, perhaps
followed by a fellowship.

A dentist's office is quite different. Dentists go to different
professional schools and receive a "D.D.S" or "D.M.D." degree. They
have their own specialty programs.

We use "amenity=clinic" or "amenity=doctors" versus "amenity=dentist"
because that fits the usual, common terminology.

> Then in healthcare2.0 proposal, there were a debate to use sepacialty
> instead of speciality... (3)

I can't address this, since I'm not aware of common British English
usage. It appears that the oed and Cambridge dictionaries say that
"speciality" is the more common British term?

We should use what is common in every-day speech, not the terms that
are used within the healthcare system only. Perhaps our English
contributors can chime in?

But since healthcare:speciality= has been used 39k times, it probably
shouldn't be changed even if specialty is slightly better

> I liked the proposal of health_facility:type= from healthcare 2.0
> especially because it takes into account health centre and health post.
> (which I guess is possible to add to healthcare=*?)

"healthcare=centre" has been used 5698 times - I would use it for an
outpatient surgical center for example

"health post" could be useful for the "Pustu" here in Indonesia, which
are usually supposed to be staffed by a nurse or midwife instead of a
physician. But "healthcare=nurse" has been used 122 times and
"healthcare=midwife" 427 times.

The one issue would be health posts that have no trained nurse or
midwife, but only a minimally-trained "community health worker", eg
"kader kesehatan" in Indonesian - this situation is common in very
remote areas in Asia and Africa. But I would use the "healthcare=" key
for this.

- Joseph

> On 19/06/2019 20:06, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> In general, I appreciate the work that you are doing on this, but I
>> don't think you should rely too much on the abandoned healthcare 2.0
>> proposal - it wasn't very well though out.

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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[marc marc]

> waiting areas often have specific locations 
> to charge electronic devices.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Ddevice_charging_station

 >  amenity=charging_station <> amenity=power_supply

some normal electrical outlets allow cars to be charged
and some charging terminals use normal outlets.

I think we're gonna to do it in two proposals:
- get amenity=power_supply adopted
- try to harmonize how the type of socket/plug is described.
socket key is probably the most successful but for charging stations, 
the information is missing if it is a plug or a plug at the end of a 
cable on the terminal side.
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree that amenity=power_supply is useful for features that provide
free or paid access to an electrical outlet.

Another place where this would be useful is in airports and train
stations, where the waiting areas often have specific locations to
charge electronic devices.

There might be some confusion with "=charging_station" because
sometimes the facilities at airports are called a "Charging Station"
or similar, but the proposal and wiki page should make it clear when
to use each tag.

I'd recommend making a proposal page to document the tag. I think it's
likely to be approved, if you have the time to spend on it.

On 6/21/19, Michael Brandtner via Tagging  wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm thinking about (and in fact, have already used about two times) a new
> tag: amenity=power_supply. It is meant for mapping places where you can get
> electrical power for a fee. They can be found at camping grounds and
> harbours. They have sockets you can use to get power and you can pay with a
> special card that you can buy at a shop (or maybe sometimes with credit
> cards or even coins, I'm not sure about that).
>
> The tagging scheme for this wouldn't really be new. You create a node at the
> location of the machine, similar how we already map amenity=water_point. For
> additional information about sockets etc., the already established tag
> power_supply=* can be used.
> Please note that this is not an amenity=charging_station. These devices are
> not meant for charging vehicles but for getting power for your boat or
> caravan while staying at a harbour or camping ground.
> By the way, the tag is not my invention. At the moment, it is already used
> 56 times.
>
> Do you think this is a good idea? I'd like to get your comments before
> starting an actual proposal process.
> Michael
>

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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Wow, what a nightmare!

Here, if a camping ground / caravan park has power to a site, it will be a
standard layout Oz plug, but rated at 15A, not 10, so you will need a 15A
lead to connect to it, but that's it!

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 10:27, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 23:56, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 04:53, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>>> Having power_supply=yes indicates that the socket type is unknown,
>>>
>>
>> But wouldn't that default as the country you're in? If you're in Britain,
>> it's a British socket, so you need a "British" plug (or an International
>> adaptor!) to plug in, in Australia an Oz socket & so on.
>>
>
> It's not that simple.  Indoors in the UK it's a BS1363 socket.  Outdoors
> on a camp site it will most
> likely be a CEE 17 blue single-phase.  But it's possible you might get CEE
> 17 red three-phase
> in some situations.  I've a vague memory there are other connectors used
> in marine applications.
> Also, although BS1363 connectors are for indoor usage, it's possible to
> get weatherproof
> housings for external use.  So even in just the UK, if a camp site says
> power hook-ups are
> available you can't be sure what connector is used.  Most likely CEE 17
> blue, but maybe not.
>
> Things get worse in Germany and France, as far as the indoor connectors
> go.  See
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7_standard
> and try to guess what you might get in either country.  I expect they also
> have weatherproof
> housings for external use.
>
> Hence power_supply=yes means there is a hook-up but the mapper doesn't
> know what it is.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 23:56, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 04:53, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> Having power_supply=yes indicates that the socket type is unknown,
>>
>
> But wouldn't that default as the country you're in? If you're in Britain,
> it's a British socket, so you need a "British" plug (or an International
> adaptor!) to plug in, in Australia an Oz socket & so on.
>

It's not that simple.  Indoors in the UK it's a BS1363 socket.  Outdoors on
a camp site it will most
likely be a CEE 17 blue single-phase.  But it's possible you might get CEE
17 red three-phase
in some situations.  I've a vague memory there are other connectors used in
marine applications.
Also, although BS1363 connectors are for indoor usage, it's possible to get
weatherproof
housings for external use.  So even in just the UK, if a camp site says
power hook-ups are
available you can't be sure what connector is used.  Most likely CEE 17
blue, but maybe not.

Things get worse in Germany and France, as far as the indoor connectors
go.  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7_standard
and try to guess what you might get in either country.  I expect they also
have weatherproof
housings for external use.

Hence power_supply=yes means there is a hook-up but the mapper doesn't know
what it is.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 04:53, Paul Allen  wrote:

> Having power_supply=yes indicates that the socket type is unknown,
>

But wouldn't that default as the country you're in? If you're in Britain,
it's a British socket, so you need a "British" plug (or an International
adaptor!) to plug in, in Australia an Oz socket & so on.


> On the gripping hand,
>

No, motes &/or moats, would have to be a different proposal entirely! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] lanes = 0

[Greg Troxel]

Joseph Eisenberg  writes:

> This requirement is fine for Europe, but the presence of lane markings
> is not reliable in all of the world.
>
> In developing countries, such as here in Indonesia, the presence of
> painted lane markings is inconsistent. Often cheap pain is used
> instead of more durable thermoplastic, so the markings only last a
> year. After that the road still functions the same, even though the
> markings are no longer visible.

It is not just about developing countries.  In my part of the US, there
are many roads whicha have either no paint at all, or have white lines
at the edges (so you can see where the edges are at night).   Almost all
of these roads are wide enough for two cars to pass comfortably, but not
really wider than that.  This seems really obviously one lane in each
direction, and everybody who drives here gets that.  There is a legal
requirement to stay on the right of the imaginary center lane (absent a
reason such as passing a pedestrian); you can be cited for "operating
left of center" entire reasonably on a two-cars-wide road with no
markings -- but that will only happen if you are left of center
egregiously or on a blind curve or rise.


So that's a long way of saying that "lane markings" should not be
required for lanes=N; it is enough to observe the local conventions.

I agree that a finer-grained tag that says if there are markings or not
is sensible.  But the most important thing is to describe how traffic
actually behaves.

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Re: [Tagging] kerb regulations: moving towards a tagging schema?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 21.06.19 04:38, Emily Eros wrote:
> I'd love to hear from people about what they think about this as a
> general approach. 

It is rare to see a suggestion from someone who is new to the game that
is so well thought out.

I am impressed that you did not, like so many others who want to scratch
their particular itch with OSM, opt for whatever is easiest for you and
not care about mapping. Everyone else on the planet would likely have
said something like "ah let's just draw a line next to the road and add
kerbside regs to that", or worse still, "let's just split up the road"
which would, as you rightly point out in your example, lead to very
fractioned ways indeed.

For this idea to be really successful, I believe that your logic of
snapping points to the road and deriving linear information from it
might have to be added to editors, so that mappers can get direct
feedback on how the interpretation changes when they add markers.

I'm not 100% clear on some aspects, e.g. what if your on-the-ground
markers are linear (double vs. single yellow line indicating no
stopping/no parking etc.) but it is possible that you've covered that
somewhere without me noticing.

I'm sure practical application will lead to all sorts of questions or
follow-on problems but the approach sounds promising.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] kerb regulations: moving towards a tagging schema?

[Emily Eros]

That's a great point. I agree, and it relates to big questions for OSM in
general regarding quality assurance and OSM's relationship to authoritative
data sources.

Parking restrictions have law enforcement implications so a city government
or other agency has to maintain its own authoritative data for these
things... otherwise it would be easy for me to avoid a parking ticket by
just editing OSM. Same goes for something like road closures - a public
agency can't risk using OSM for all its needs, otherwise a vandal could
close a bridge into Manhattan, with massive implications for traffic.
That's another reason for curbspace regulations to live in a separate,
standalone format with metadata - having a curbspace feed like CurbLR
provides a way for a government agency to publish data they consider to be
official, and "sign off" on it. Data consumers can then determine which
feeds they trust and want to consume, and which ones they want to
investigate or handle with care.

This raises the question, "Why do this in OSM at all?" If there can be a
separate place for official data, why should people bother to map it (or
import it) into OSM? The biggest reason to me is because OSM provides a
place for people to map their own communities or areas of interest,
especially if a government can't or won't produce/maintain/share their
data. This seems like one of the core reasons why OSM came about. For
curbspace specifically, OSM gives mappers a place crowdsource information,
take advantage of common tools that may emerge, analyze the data in order
to understand how their public space is allocated, and potentially advocate
for changes to be made. They could also conduct their own inventory and
compare it to "official" sources as a means of verification and QA/QC that
benefits everyone - just because a dataset is "official", doesn't mean it's
correct. So OSM means that people aren't reliant on government, and can
hold their local agencies accountable for both their mapping and their use
of public space. I find that pretty compelling.

I don't have a good answer to how OSM can conduct quality control for this
data any differently than it does for other types of data... but I do think
it's important for OSM to offer a place for those who do want to map the
curbside, and I think the idea of a GTFS-like feed with metadata about
where the data came from will provide a path for both "authoritative" and
crowdsourced data to coexist.


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:39 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> I am impressed by the high quality of this project. I think it could
> surely be done in or with OSM. One question though: it seems to me it only
> works if permanent quality control and quality assurance is in place. OSM
> is not known for its reliability in that respect, you simply cannot
> guarantee that there is data and that the data is complete, correct and
> verifiable at any given time.
>
> How will you go about that?
>
> Fr gr Peter Elderson
>
>
> Op vr 21 jun. 2019 om 04:43 schreef Emily Eros :
>
>> Hi mailing list,
>>
>> Kerb/curb management has become a hot topic for city governments and
>> companies, but there's not really a way to map parking and other
>> restrictions in OSM. There's been some discussion of the importance and
>> applications, but not a proposal.
>>
>> In my day job at SharedStreets, I've been working with city governments
>> and companies who are interested in having a data standard to communicate
>> about the kerb/curb, sort of like what GTFS does for transit. So I did some
>> digging into OSM to see what this currently looks like and how OSM could
>> also be able to store this regulatory data, if that's something that people
>> want to map. Since this is really long, I've put it up as a blog post here:
>> https://medium.com/sharedstreets/openstreetmap-and-curb-regulations-7812ee582a33
>>
>> I'd love to hear from people about what they think about this as a
>> general approach.
>>
>> If there's a group that's interested in getting together to have a
>> conversation about this in real-time, then we could also put a working
>> group together, formally or informally.
>>
>> Best,
>> Emily
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-06-21 21:15, François Lacombe wrote:

> Le ven. 21 juin 2019 à 20:44, Colin Smale  a écrit : 
> 
>> There is also this tagging scheme for the same thing: 
>> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:socket 
>> Now how did that happen???
> It's more fun to use socket=* than power_supply:socket_type=* since the only 
> important word is "socket". 
> Power_supply comes in another tag and _type doesn't bring any additionnal 
> information.

> It would be great to sum up this discussion in a wiki page don't you?

Assuming you mean the consolidated consensus that will no doubt result
from this discussion, I agree with that.___
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 19:44, Colin Smale  wrote:


> There is also this tagging scheme for the same thing:
>
>
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:socket


Now how did that happen???

It arose via a different route, supporting amenity=charging_station.  We
probably
need to harmonize the naming conventions.  It's likely in future that camp
sites
offering power hook-ups will also offer car charging with all those
specialized
connectors (Tesla, I'm looking at you).

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] kerb regulations: moving towards a tagging schema?

[Peter Elderson]

I am impressed by the high quality of this project. I think it could surely
be done in or with OSM. One question though: it seems to me it only works
if permanent quality control and quality assurance is in place. OSM is not
known for its reliability in that respect, you simply cannot guarantee that
there is data and that the data is complete, correct and verifiable at any
given time.

How will you go about that?

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op vr 21 jun. 2019 om 04:43 schreef Emily Eros :

> Hi mailing list,
>
> Kerb/curb management has become a hot topic for city governments and
> companies, but there's not really a way to map parking and other
> restrictions in OSM. There's been some discussion of the importance and
> applications, but not a proposal.
>
> In my day job at SharedStreets, I've been working with city governments
> and companies who are interested in having a data standard to communicate
> about the kerb/curb, sort of like what GTFS does for transit. So I did some
> digging into OSM to see what this currently looks like and how OSM could
> also be able to store this regulatory data, if that's something that people
> want to map. Since this is really long, I've put it up as a blog post here:
> https://medium.com/sharedstreets/openstreetmap-and-curb-regulations-7812ee582a33
>
> I'd love to hear from people about what they think about this as a general
> approach.
>
> If there's a group that's interested in getting together to have a
> conversation about this in real-time, then we could also put a working
> group together, formally or informally.
>
> Best,
> Emily
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[François Lacombe]

Le ven. 21 juin 2019 à 20:44, Colin Smale  a écrit :

>
> There is also this tagging scheme for the same thing:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:socket
>
> Now how did that happen???
>

It's more fun to use socket=* than power_supply:socket_type=* since the
only important word is "socket".
Power_supply comes in another tag and _type doesn't bring any additionnal
information.

It would be great to sum up this discussion in a wiki page don't you?

François
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Valor Naram via Tagging]

> Looks good to me, except that the tag name should really be something like "power_supply:socket_type" rather than the over-generic "power_supply".+1___
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[François Lacombe]

Hi

Le ven. 21 juin 2019 à 16:18, Philip Barnes  a écrit :

> On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 15:49 +0200, Jan S wrote:
> > Would such a tag fit for e-car charging stations, too, or can we
> > already tag those? These charging stations basically provide
> > electricity for money, too, don't they?
> We already map those see
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=charging%20station?uselang=en
>
> Slightly different in that you would navigate to one if you need to
> charge your car. You would not go to a campsite to charge your phone,
> but power can be a consideration when choosing somewhere to camp.
>

We have to be sure to don't confuse sites vs devices : a charging station
may have several power supplies with different capacities and standards.

As I understand above proposal, such a power supply would have a single
voltage, socket standard and current capacity (additionnaly a single fare
policy).

This would be great to have a single tag for power supplies, including
e-vehicle charging station, camp sites and for outside markets
Cities often roll out some supplies in streets to feed fridge trucks or
electric ovens

Capacity and usage capabilities may be given in other keys than amenity=*

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2019-06-21 18:33, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 17:06, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
>> When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing standard
>> such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the socket, not
>> for the plug; some combinations have a measure of cross-compatibility, and
>> you don't want to mix that up in the tagging for the socket. A few
>> examples: the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at least) use Type G, in
>> France/Belgium it is type F, in the Netherlands it is type E.
>>
>>
> Are you suggesting replacing the scheme here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power_supply
> or is that OK with you?
>
>
> Looks good to me,
>

If I'm not misunderstanding things, that key never went through a proposal
process.  But it looks
like a reasonable foundation and has been used in the wild.  I suggest we
try to fix up any
problems and do something with it, rather than re-invent the wheel.  Also
incorporate the USB
idea from its talk page - some cafes/airport lounges/trains/buses now offer
USB sockets.


> except that the tag name should really be something
> like "power_supply:socket_type" rather than the over-generic "power_supply".
>

I'm in three minds about that.  There's no sense in power_supply=no +
power_supply:socket_type=europlug.  Having power_supply=yes indicates that
the socket
type is unknown, having power_supply=europlug is all that's needed.  OTOH,
having
power_supply:socket_type is consistent with the tags for power, voltage and
frequency.  On
the gripping hand, the recent proposal here was for amenity=power_supply,
so power_supply=
yes|no becomes unnecessary.


> I am please to see that frequency and voltage are covered, as is maximum
> current. Not sure polyphase supplies are fully covered though. Only one
> socket type is described as 3-phase; there is at least one other type, and
> that also seems to accommodate USA split-phase as well:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309#Blue_3P+N+E,_9h
>

It wouldn't be impossible to add all the wikipedia socket types to it.  And
would be a good idea.

The question is what formal process (if any) do we use to amend the draft
and take it to a vote.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-06-21 19:57, Colin Smale wrote:

> On 2019-06-21 18:33, Paul Allen wrote: 
> 
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 17:06, Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
> When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing standard 
> such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the socket, not 
> for the plug; some combinations have a measure of cross-compatibility, and 
> you don't want to mix that up in the tagging for the socket. A few examples: 
> the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at least) use Type G, in France/Belgium it 
> is type F, in the Netherlands it is type E. 
> Are you suggesting replacing the scheme here: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power_supply 
> or is that OK with you?

Looks good to me, except that the tag name should really be something
like "power_supply:socket_type" rather than the over-generic
"power_supply". I am please to see that frequency and voltage are
covered, as is maximum current. Not sure polyphase supplies are fully
covered though. Only one socket type is described as 3-phase; there is
at least one other type, and that also seems to accommodate USA
split-phase as well: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309#Blue_3P+N+E,_9h 

There is also this tagging scheme for the same thing: 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:socket 

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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-06-21 18:33, Paul Allen wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 17:06, Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
>> When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing standard 
>> such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the socket, not 
>> for the plug; some combinations have a measure of cross-compatibility, and 
>> you don't want to mix that up in the tagging for the socket. A few examples: 
>> the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at least) use Type G, in France/Belgium 
>> it is type F, in the Netherlands it is type E.
> 
> Are you suggesting replacing the scheme here: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power_supply 
> or is that OK with you?

Looks good to me, except that the tag name should really be something
like "power_supply:socket_type" rather than the over-generic
"power_supply". I am please to see that frequency and voltage are
covered, as is maximum current. Not sure polyphase supplies are fully
covered though. Only one socket type is described as 3-phase; there is
at least one other type, and that also seems to accommodate USA
split-phase as well: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309#Blue_3P+N+E,_9h___
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Philip Barnes]

On Friday, 21 June 2019, Colin Smale wrote:
> On 2019-06-21 14:18, Michael Brandtner via Tagging wrote:
> 
> > I'm thinking about (and in fact, have already used about two times) a new 
> > tag: _amenity=power_supply_. It is meant for mapping places where you can 
> > get electrical power for a fee. They can be found at camping grounds and 
> > harbours. They have sockets you can use to get power and you can pay with a 
> > special card that you can buy at a shop (or maybe sometimes with credit 
> > cards or even coins, I'm not sure about that).
> 
> When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing
> standard such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the
> socket, not for the plug; some combinations have a measure of
> cross-compatibility, and you don't want to mix that up in the tagging
> for the socket. A few examples: the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at
> least) use Type G, in France/Belgium it is type F, in the Netherlands it
> is type E. 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets 
> 
> For higher-power connections, the standard to follow is IEC 60309: 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_6030

Although in the case of campsites both the UK and France in my experience use 
the same IP44 rated 16A connectors.

I use the same cables both sides of the channel.

It would be a very bad idea to use standard indoor power sockets in that 
situation.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Juni 2019 um 18:06 Uhr schrieb Colin Smale <
colin.sm...@xs4all.nl>:

> When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing standard
> such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the socket, not
> for the plug; some combinations have a measure of cross-compatibility, and
> you don't want to mix that up in the tagging for the socket. A few
> examples: the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at least) use Type G, in
> France/Belgium it is type F, in the Netherlands it is type E.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
>


I find it still incredible how mankind did not manage to uniform socket
types in more than 100 years of electrification and maybe 30-40 years of
globalization

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] kerb regulations: moving towards a tagging schema?

[Emily Eros]

Hi Graeme,

Good question. So cities generally post what is restricted, rather than
what is explicitly allowed. For example, a "paid parking" rule is there to
tell you that you *can't* park unless you pay, and a "parking 2-4pm" zone
is there to tell you that you *can't* park outside of those hours. Some
restrictions are easier to map in the affirmative (e.g. parking zone, but
only for motorcycles), and this implies that no other vehicle or user class
can park there. Other restrictions are easier to map in the negative (e.g.
no parking, applies to everyone if unspecified). Either way, there is an
underlying understanding that curbspace has a "default" status, and signs
denote exceptions to that status. I suppose you could map all allowed uses
of every street segment, but it would be far simpler to just map the
exceptions. In the same way, I've never seen a city signpost something to
the effect of "parking allowed for everyone at all hours". I'm sure there
is probably the odd edge case, but signs and paint are expensive to
create/maintain, so there are good reasons why cities don't do this.

In cities in Canada and the US where I've lived, the default is open;
parking, standing, or loading of all modes and vehicles is permitted unless
posted otherwise. But I wouldn't be surprised if other jurisdictions are
closed by default. To handle those, a polygon could be created around these
areas (or an existing boundary could be used) and a relation could be
created to establish them as exceptions with a different default. The asset
tagging scheme would still work the same way, though - the same tags (e.g.
parking zone, applies to everyone) can be used to denote exceptions where
certain activities are allowed.

To answer questions like, "Where can I park/load/stand my vehicle?", a
rules engine is necessary to consider the default, the time period in
question, and the user/mode/vehicle in question. That's not specific to the
curb - you'd need the same sort of thing to use OSM to answer questions
like, "Where is the nearest open pharmacy at 9pm?"

For for on what tagging could look like, specific examples of how we handle
activity rules in the CurbLR spec are available on GitHub:
https://github.com/sharedstreets/CurbLR/blob/master/Rule.md
(I haven't written up what this would look like in OSM yet since it seems
premature - I wanted to first share the general approach and see what the
community thinks about point-based asset mapping.)



On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:04 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 12:43, Emily Eros  wrote:
>
>> I'd love to hear from people about what they think about this as a
>> general approach.
>>
>
> Wow Emily, that's a mighty task you've set yourself!
>
> How will it work when there are no signposts - eg residential streets
> where parking is allowed but nothing to indicate it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 17:06, Colin Smale  wrote:

> When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing standard
> such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the socket, not
> for the plug; some combinations have a measure of cross-compatibility, and
> you don't want to mix that up in the tagging for the socket. A few
> examples: the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at least) use Type G, in
> France/Belgium it is type F, in the Netherlands it is type E.
>
> Are you suggesting replacing the scheme here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power_supply
or is that OK with you?

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-06-21 18:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> Am Fr., 21. Juni 2019 um 18:06 Uhr schrieb Colin Smale 
> : 
> 
>> When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing standard 
>> such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the socket, not 
>> for the plug; some combinations have a measure of cross-compatibility, and 
>> you don't want to mix that up in the tagging for the socket. A few examples: 
>> the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at least) use Type G, in France/Belgium 
>> it is type F, in the Netherlands it is type E. 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
> 
> I find it still incredible how mankind did not manage to uniform socket types 
> in more than 100 years of electrification and maybe 30-40 years of 
> globalization

We would need agreement on frequency/voltage first, to avoid dangerous
and expensive errors It's too late for that now. No way will the
Americans adopt our 230V/50Hz system. We can't even get them to use
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-06-21 14:18, Michael Brandtner via Tagging wrote:

> I'm thinking about (and in fact, have already used about two times) a new 
> tag: _amenity=power_supply_. It is meant for mapping places where you can get 
> electrical power for a fee. They can be found at camping grounds and 
> harbours. They have sockets you can use to get power and you can pay with a 
> special card that you can buy at a shop (or maybe sometimes with credit cards 
> or even coins, I'm not sure about that).

When it comes to tagging the socket type, please use an existing
standard such as the IEC type letters. Make sure to use the code for the
socket, not for the plug; some combinations have a measure of
cross-compatibility, and you don't want to mix that up in the tagging
for the socket. A few examples: the UK, Ireland, Malta, Singapore (at
least) use Type G, in France/Belgium it is type F, in the Netherlands it
is type E. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets 

For higher-power connections, the standard to follow is IEC 60309: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309___
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Juni 2019 um 17:09 Uhr schrieb Jan S :

>
>
> If these sockets are typically located at caravan parking spots in
> campgrounds, wouldn't it be sufficient to add a sub-tag to the proposed tag
> tourism=camp_pitch? Btw, voting for that tag is underway until 28 June
> here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_pitch



they may be located there sometimes, but often I have seen they are simply
putting an extension cord from whereever there is the installed plug, to
the pitch where power is needed. For camping sites it may make more sense
to generally state availability of power, because it doesn't depend (only)
on static outlet positions. Of course you will often have the situation
that some areas may have electrical power and others not (or only if you
are a group of 100 people and requiring it).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Jan S]

Am 21. Juni 2019 16:29:02 MESZ schrieb Michael Brandtner via Tagging 
:
>The sub-tag does already exist, I've linked to it in my original post
>(power_supply=). What doesn't exist is a main tag for tagging isolated
>columns for power supply.
>This image shows what I'm talking about:
>https://www.alamy.de/outdoor-steckdosen-mit-sicherheitsschalter-auf-blau-metall-pol-fur-die-stromversorgung-von-kleinen-booten-im-hafen-umgeben-mit-konkreten-fliese-montiert-image233468696.html
>
Thanks, now I know what you mean.
>
>
>Am Freitag, 21. Juni 2019, 16:17:48 MESZ hat Philip Barnes
> Folgendes geschrieben:  
> 
> On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 15:49 +0200, Jan S wrote:
>> 
>> Am 21. Juni 2019 15:25:06 MESZ schrieb Philip Barnes <
>> p...@trigpoint.me.uk>:
>> > On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 16:07 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
>> > > Guess it could be the same as fuel stations/hotels etc with extra
>> > > amenities: high-level tagging on the whole campsite pitch with a
>> > > sub
>> > > tag, or nodes on actual power sockets for more detail.
>> > 
>> > The position is useful information, you may need to know if your
>> > cable
>> > is long enough.

If these sockets are typically located at caravan parking spots in campgrounds, 
wouldn't it be sufficient to add a sub-tag to the proposed tag 
tourism=camp_pitch? Btw, voting for that tag is underway until 28 June here: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_pitch

Best, Jan

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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Michael Brandtner via Tagging]

 The sub-tag does already exist, I've linked to it in my original post 
(power_supply=). What doesn't exist is a main tag for tagging isolated columns 
for power supply.
This image shows what I'm talking about:
 
https://www.alamy.de/outdoor-steckdosen-mit-sicherheitsschalter-auf-blau-metall-pol-fur-die-stromversorgung-von-kleinen-booten-im-hafen-umgeben-mit-konkreten-fliese-montiert-image233468696.html








Am Freitag, 21. Juni 2019, 16:17:48 MESZ hat Philip Barnes 
 Folgendes geschrieben:  
 
 On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 15:49 +0200, Jan S wrote:
> 
> Am 21. Juni 2019 15:25:06 MESZ schrieb Philip Barnes <
> p...@trigpoint.me.uk>:
> > On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 16:07 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
> > > Guess it could be the same as fuel stations/hotels etc with extra
> > > amenities: high-level tagging on the whole campsite pitch with a
> > > sub
> > > tag, or nodes on actual power sockets for more detail.
> > 
> > The position is useful information, you may need to know if your
> > cable
> > is long enough.
> 
> Would such a tag fit for e-car charging stations, too, or can we
> already tag those? These charging stations basically provide
> electricity for money, too, don't they?
We already map those see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=charging%20station?uselang=en

Slightly different in that you would navigate to one if you need to
charge your car. You would not go to a campsite to charge your phone,
but power can be a consideration when choosing somewhere to camp.

Although power available sub-tagging could be applied to lots of
objects. Pubs, Cafes and Railway Stations provide power for customers
to charge mobile phones and laptops, most will provide mains but many
now have USB connectors so you only need to carry a cable.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 15:49 +0200, Jan S wrote:
> 
> Am 21. Juni 2019 15:25:06 MESZ schrieb Philip Barnes <
> p...@trigpoint.me.uk>:
> > On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 16:07 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
> > > Guess it could be the same as fuel stations/hotels etc with extra
> > > amenities: high-level tagging on the whole campsite pitch with a
> > > sub
> > > tag, or nodes on actual power sockets for more detail.
> > 
> > The position is useful information, you may need to know if your
> > cable
> > is long enough.
> 
> Would such a tag fit for e-car charging stations, too, or can we
> already tag those? These charging stations basically provide
> electricity for money, too, don't they?
We already map those see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=charging%20station?uselang=en

Slightly different in that you would navigate to one if you need to
charge your car. You would not go to a campsite to charge your phone,
but power can be a consideration when choosing somewhere to camp.

Although power available sub-tagging could be applied to lots of
objects. Pubs, Cafes and Railway Stations provide power for customers
to charge mobile phones and laptops, most will provide mains but many
now have USB connectors so you only need to carry a cable.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Jan S]

Am 21. Juni 2019 15:25:06 MESZ schrieb Philip Barnes :
>On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 16:07 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
>> Guess it could be the same as fuel stations/hotels etc with extra
>> amenities: high-level tagging on the whole campsite pitch with a sub
>> tag, or nodes on actual power sockets for more detail.
>
>The position is useful information, you may need to know if your cable
>is long enough.

Would such a tag fit for e-car charging stations, too, or can we already tag 
those? These charging stations basically provide electricity for money, too, 
don't they?

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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.06.2019 um 13:28 schrieb Andreas Lattmann :
> 
> So, how should I tag these pathways for the disabled?


reread the contributions to this thread and take a decision ;-)

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 16:07 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
> Guess it could be the same as fuel stations/hotels etc with extra
> amenities: high-level tagging on the whole campsite pitch with a sub
> tag, or nodes on actual power sockets for more detail.

The position is useful information, you may need to know if your cable
is long enough.

Last summer on one French site our pitch was too far from the hookup
for our 16A cable, but fortunately the site was able to loan us one for
our stay.

European sites all seem to use standard IP44 rated 16A connections.

Phil (trigpoint)



> 
> пт, 21 июн. 2019 г. в 15:46, Philip Barnes :
> > On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 15:33 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
> > > I am surprised this is not something that exists already (or is
> > > it?)Wouldn't limit it to caravans though, would be equally useful
> > > for those looking to charge electronics or power a tool of some
> > > sort.
> > > Or is that power_supply?
> > > 
> > Certainly not limited to Caravans, we use electrical hookups on
> > camp sites with our tent.
> > 
> > This is not free, it is part of the charge for using the campsite,
> > some will have pitches with power available or not, others will
> > come and fit a circuit breaker if you pay for it.
> > 
> > In the case of camp sites, should this not be a sub-tag of the
> > campsite pitch proposal?
> > 
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> > ___
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> > 
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Anton Klim]

Guess it could be the same as fuel stations/hotels etc with extra
amenities: high-level tagging on the whole campsite pitch with a sub tag,
or nodes on actual power sockets for more detail.


пт, 21 июн. 2019 г. в 15:46, Philip Barnes :

> On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 15:33 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
>
> I am surprised this is not something that exists already (or is it?)
> Wouldn't limit it to caravans though, would be equally useful for those
> looking to charge electronics or power a tool of some sort.
> Or is that power_supply?
>
> Certainly not limited to Caravans, we use electrical hookups on camp sites
> with our tent.
>
> This is not free, it is part of the charge for using the campsite, some
> will have pitches with power available or not, others will come and fit a
> circuit breaker if you pay for it.
>
> In the case of camp sites, should this not be a sub-tag of the campsite
> pitch proposal?
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.06.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Michael Brandtner via Tagging 
> :
> 
> I'm thinking about (and in fact, have already used about two times) a new 
> tag: amenity=power_supply. It is meant for mapping places where you can get 
> electrical power for a fee. They can be found at camping grounds and 
> harbours. They have sockets you can use to get power and you can pay with a 
> special card that you can buy at a shop (or maybe sometimes with credit cards 
> or even coins, I'm not sure about that).


this could be differentiated by voltage and detailed with plug types (there’s 
already a scheme from the vehicle charging stations).
Eg. for usb outlets for mobile phone charging, bicycle charging, etc.

Not sure the Ampere are interesting as well.

If there’s a fee or not should not be implicit, there is the “fee” tag for this.


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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2019-06-21 at 15:33 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
> I am surprised this is not something that exists already (or is
> it?)Wouldn't limit it to caravans though, would be equally useful for
> those looking to charge electronics or power a tool of some sort.
> Or is that power_supply?
> 
Certainly not limited to Caravans, we use electrical hookups on camp
sites with our tent.

This is not free, it is part of the charge for using the campsite, some
will have pitches with power available or not, others will come and fit
a circuit breaker if you pay for it.

In the case of camp sites, should this not be a sub-tag of the campsite
pitch proposal?

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Anton Klim]

I am surprised this is not something that exists already (or is it?)
Wouldn't limit it to caravans though, would be equally useful for those
looking to charge electronics or power a tool of some sort.
Or is that power_supply?

Ant

пт, 21 июн. 2019 г. в 15:22, Michael Brandtner via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> Hi,
>
> I'm thinking about (and in fact, have already used about two times) a new
> tag: *amenity=power_supply*. It is meant for mapping places where you can
> get electrical power for a fee. They can be found at camping grounds and
> harbours. They have sockets you can use to get power and you can pay with a
> special card that you can buy at a shop (or maybe sometimes with credit
> cards or even coins, I'm not sure about that).
>
> The tagging scheme for this wouldn't really be new. You create a node at
> the location of the machine, similar how we already map
> amenity=water_point. For additional information about sockets etc., the
> already established tag power_supply=*
> can be used.
>
> Please note that this is not an amenity=charging_station. These devices
> are not meant for charging vehicles but for getting power for your boat or
> caravan while staying at a harbour or camping ground.
>
> By the way, the tag is not my invention. At the moment, it is already used
> 56 times.
>
> Do you think this is a good idea? I'd like to get your comments before
> starting an actual proposal process.
>
> Michael
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[Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Michael Brandtner via Tagging]

Hi,
I'm thinking about (and in fact, have already used about two times) a new tag: 
amenity=power_supply. It is meant for mapping places where you can get 
electrical power for a fee. They can be found at camping grounds and harbours. 
They have sockets you can use to get power and you can pay with a special card 
that you can buy at a shop (or maybe sometimes with credit cards or even coins, 
I'm not sure about that). 

The tagging scheme for this wouldn't really be new. You create a node at the 
location of the machine, similar how we already map amenity=water_point. For 
additional information about sockets etc., the already established tag 
power_supply=* can be used.
Please note that this is not an amenity=charging_station. These devices are not 
meant for charging vehicles but for getting power for your boat or caravan 
while staying at a harbour or camping ground.
By the way, the tag is not my invention. At the moment, it is already used 56 
times. 

Do you think this is a good idea? I'd like to get your comments before starting 
an actual proposal process.
Michael
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Andreas Lattmann]

So, how should I tag these pathways for the disabled?
--
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Re: [Tagging] Which global OSM mailing list for the "community index"?

[Peter Elderson]

You can use your OSM account to access the osm-forum
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op vr 21 jun. 2019 om 06:26 schreef Graeme Fitzpatrick <
graemefi...@gmail.com>:

>
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 20:01, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> in parts of the world for which no particular national/regional
>> resources have been defined, the "id" editor will suggest to get in
>> touch with "us" and/or other mappers through:
>>
>> * Reddit
>> * Facebook
>> * Telegram
>> * Discord
>> * Twitter
>> * OSM help
>> * OSM IRC channel
>> * OSMF website
>>
>
> This is sort of a continuance of the conversations following Simon's post
> last week about too much traffic on the list!
>
> The problem I have with most of those options (Reddit, Facebook, Discord,
> Twitter, & also the mailing lists) is that you need to sign-up to them. I
> don't know IRC works & I don't even know what Telegram is!
>
> As someone said last week, it would be good if the simple act of creating
> an OSM account to edit the map, also gave you access to the "forum" or
> whatever, to ask for help, give advice to others, discuss new tags, have
> local conversations & so on.
>
> Personally, I think that we should be making much more use of the existing
> Help forum, with a complete redesign of the first page, to break things up
> into "lounges", as per other forums eg http://fordforums.com.au/index.php
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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