Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[François Lacombe]

Hi

2018-08-05 21:48 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> Most of them have specific meanings with regard to
> electrical distribution and attachment is the only applicable one I can
> see that doesn't also have an electrical meaning
> (coupling often indicates that it transmits electrical or mechanical
> power).  So my vote is for attachment.
>

Then I moved the proposal to line_attachment key as I agree with you on
wording.
And also add pole:type to be replaced the same as tower:type

This sounds like consistent

Let's note that this proposal doesn't prevent us to better describe
insulators when used on a particular attachment (give their length,
material, whatever) despite out of the scope of this document.
This should be done with more dedicated to insulators keys (insulator:*
related to power=insulator ?) than line_attachment intended for global
lines attachment on many kinds of supports.


>  To be honest, I don't think finding a web page merits
> credit so I'd be perfectly happy if you removed that mention of me.
>

No offense, I removed this credit from the page

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 3:20 PM, François Lacombe 
wrote:

>
> 2018-08-03 15:34 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :
>
>
>>  It is Brtish *layman's* English.  It would be a good idea to check with
>> somebody who works in the industry.  But I suspect
>> he or she will tell you it's an insulator.  In British layman's English,
>> attachment is better than clamp.  I'll see if I can get
>> an answer out of somebody with a youtube channel who works with this
>> stuff (don't hold your breath).
>>
>
> Sounds good, let's wait a bit and see if there are more comments regarding
> this point
>

I had a look at the page now you've revised it.  Since your proposal covers
any kind of line attached to a pole,
even a washing line, then "insulator" isn't appropriate.  And, given the
more general applicability, attachment is a lot
better than line clamp.  However, I just thought to look at a thesaurus:
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/attachment
Of the alternatives, coupling might be better, but only marginally.  Most
of them have specific meanings with regard to
electrical distribution and attachment is the only applicable one I can see
that doesn't also have an electrical meaning
(coupling often indicates that it transmits electrical or mechanical
power).  So my vote is for attachment.

I also noticed you gave me credit on that wiki page.  But it could be read
as indicating that I was responsible for the web
page you link to, rather than that I merely found the page.  To be honest,
I don't think finding a web page merits
credit so I'd be perfectly happy if you removed that mention of me.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[François Lacombe]

Hi

2018-08-03 15:34 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

>
> The documentation is a little unclear.  What I think you may mean (because
> it doesn't lose information if you
> do it this way) isline_clamp:1 is the top row, and you might have
> line_clamp:1=suspension;pin;suspension.  If that is
> what you mean then an example would help clarify.
>

That's right, I've changed the illustration and tagging description
And add examples :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lines_clamps#Examples


>  It is Brtish *layman's* English.  It would be a good idea to check with
> somebody who works in the industry.  But I suspect
> he or she will tell you it's an insulator.  In British layman's English,
> attachment is better than clamp.  I'll see if I can get
> an answer out of somebody with a youtube channel who works with this stuff
> (don't hold your breath).
>

Sounds good, let's wait a bit and see if there are more comments regarding
this point

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 10:58 AM, François Lacombe  wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> 2018-08-02 14:17 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :
>
>> Yeah, all you could do with that one is line_clamp=mixed.  The
>> down/up/down situation you could maybe handle as
>> line_clamp=suspension;pin;suspension.
>>
>
> Good point. It would be pretty easy to describe complex configurations as
> matrix. I've started a chapter dealing with complex configurations
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/
> Lines_clamps#Complex_configurations
>

The documentation is a little unclear.  What I think you may mean (because
it doesn't lose information if you
do it this way) isline_clamp:1 is the top row, and you might have
line_clamp:1=suspension;pin;suspension.  If that is
what you mean then an example would help clarify.

>
> Maybe.  Or maybe you need different terminology.  How about
>> "line_attachment" rather than line_clamp?
>>
>
> Good idea, line_attachment sounds good.
> Is it British English?
>

It is Brtish *layman's* English.  It would be a good idea to check with
somebody who works in the industry.  But I suspect
he or she will tell you it's an insulator.  In British layman's English,
attachment is better than clamp.  I'll see if I can get
an answer out of somebody with a youtube channel who works with this stuff
(don't hold your breath).

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[François Lacombe]

Hi Paul,

2018-08-02 14:17 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> Yeah, all you could do with that one is line_clamp=mixed.  The
> down/up/down situation you could maybe handle as
> line_clamp=suspension;pin;suspension.
>

Good point. It would be pretty easy to describe complex configurations as
matrix. I've started a chapter dealing with complex configurations
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lines_clamps#Complex_configurations
This can be completed or refined as whished.


>
> Maybe.  Or maybe you need different terminology.  How about
> "line_attachment" rather than line_clamp?
>

Good idea, line_attachment sounds good.
Is it British English?

All the best, François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:49 AM, François Lacombe  wrote:

>
> Indeed there are situations where many kind of clamping is used. I think
> about line_clamp=mixed
> Especially for such poles : https://previews.123rf.com/
> images/saovadee/saovadee1406/saovadee140600044/28858354-
> electric-pole-with-messy-wire-that-look-dangerous.jpg
>

Yeah, all you could do with that one is line_clamp=mixed.  The down/up/down
situation you could maybe handle as
line_clamp=suspension;pin;suspension.

Insulators are a particular practical mean to do so especially for power
> where conductors have to be separated from their supports as to prevent
> electricity to go back to earth.
> You don't have insulator here : https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/File:Wooden_telecom_suspension_pole.jpeg
> But it a suspension clamping.
>

That's true.  Insulated cable, so the attachment isn't an insulator.

The main point is to remove power dedicated values from tower:type.
>
As it's better to make it global, such values are extended to portals,
> poles...
> And to make it an order more global, let's not design it specific to power
> anymore but suitable for telecom or any other line
> That's how line_clamp came to my mind.
> Should I update the proposal and rationale chapter?
>

Maybe.  Or maybe you need different terminology.  How about
"line_attachment" rather than line_clamp?

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[François Lacombe]

2018-08-01 17:05 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> I have seen a youtube video with an arrangement with a pole and
> cross-bar.  It uses three
> identical insulators.  Directly above the pole the insulator is used as a
> pin.  At the ends
> of the cross-arms the two insulators are used as suspensions.  One up, two
> down, identical
> insulators.
>

Indeed there are situations where many kind of clamping is used. I think
about line_clamp=mixed
Especially for such poles :
https://previews.123rf.com/images/saovadee/saovadee1406/saovadee140600044/28858354-electric-pole-with-messy-wire-that-look-dangerous.jpg


> At the bottom of the page I linked to there is another link to a page with
> even more types
> of insulator.  It's mostly about insulator materials and properties, but
> it does also
> cover post insulators (a variant of a pint insulator) and a long rod
> insulator (a variant
> of a suspension insulator).
>

Thank you, I'll look at those.
Note that power=insulator is dedicated to insulators and other keys like
material can get the insulator material and so on...
It's not exactly what line_clamp intend to describe, see below.


> One thing that occurs to me.  When I first saw the proposal calling them
> line clamps,
> I thought that must be industry terminology because I wouldn't have called
> them
> line clamps.  To my mind a line clamp would be a component in the insulator
> assembly that grips the wire. After reading the pages I pointed you at, it
> appears the industry
> does call them what I would call them: insulators.  Your proposal appears
> to be about what
> the industry calls insulators but you call them line clamps.
>

Proposal deals with clamping wires/cables on supports in general.
Insulators are a particular practical mean to do so especially for power
where conductors have to be separated from their supports as to prevent
electricity to go back to earth.
You don't have insulator here :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Wooden_telecom_suspension_pole.jpeg
But it a suspension clamping.

The main point is to remove power dedicated values from tower:type.
As it's better to make it global, such values are extended to portals,
poles...
And to make it an order more global, let's not design it specific to power
anymore but suitable for telecom or any other line
That's how line_clamp came to my mind.
Should I update the proposal and rationale chapter?

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 3:34 PM, François Lacombe 
wrote:

>
> Then I add line_clamp=pin possibility.
>

I have seen a youtube video with an arrangement with a pole and cross-bar.
It uses three
identical insulators.  Directly above the pole the insulator is used as a
pin.  At the ends
of the cross-arms the two insulators are used as suspensions.  One up, two
down, identical
insulators.

At the bottom of the page I linked to there is another link to a page with
even more types
of insulator.  It's mostly about insulator materials and properties, but it
does also
cover post insulators (a variant of a pint insulator) and a long rod
insulator (a variant
of a suspension insulator).

One thing that occurs to me.  When I first saw the proposal calling them
line clamps,
I thought that must be industry terminology because I wouldn't have called
them
line clamps.  To my mind a line clamp would be a component in the insulator
assembly that grips the wire. After reading the pages I pointed you at, it
appears the industry
does call them what I would call them: insulators.  Your proposal appears
to be about what
the industry calls insulators but you call them line clamps.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[François Lacombe]

Thanks Paul,

Then I add line_clamp=pin possibility.
Strain and Shackle insulators both refers to line_clamp=anchor

All the best

François

2018-08-01 16:18 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

>
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, François Lacombe <
> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Is there an opposite of suspension in English?
>> I only find "suspension" in IEC vocabulary
>>
>>
> https://www.electricaleasy.com/2016/10/insulators-used-
> in-overhead-power-lines.html
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, François Lacombe 
wrote:

>
> Is there an opposite of suspension in English?
> I only find "suspension" in IEC vocabulary
>
>
https://www.electricaleasy.com/2016/10/insulators-used-in-overhead-power-lines.html

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[François Lacombe]

Regarding this topic, and this particular picture :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Power-tower-h-frame_two-level.jpeg

Do you agree to currently tag this as tower:type=suspension and maybe later
according to proposal as line_clamp=suspension?
Is there an opposite of suspension in English?
I only find "suspension" in IEC vocabulary

I won't be against adding another relevent value to differ from power
supports where conductors are under the insulator chain.

All the best

François


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2018-07-26 23:41 GMT+02:00 François Lacombe :

> Hi all,
>
> This proposal intends to free tower:type from specific power values
> (suspension, anchor...) and introduces line_clamp key
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lines_clamps
>
> It may be useful to extend the concept to other power supports, not only
> towers and other fields of knowledge like telecoms or railways.
>
> Feel free to comment it here or on Talk page
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Line clamps

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

This proposal intends to free tower:type from specific power values
(suspension, anchor...) and introduces line_clamp key
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lines_clamps

It may be useful to extend the concept to other power supports, not only
towers and other fields of knowledge like telecoms or railways.

Feel free to comment it here or on Talk page

All the best

François
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