Re: [OSM-talk] Copyright and old maps

[Michael Collinson]

An excellent find!

Yes, they are perfect for OSM use.
I double checked a few of the maps and see the are prepared and 
published by, and only by, the Army Map Service, Corps of Engineers. 
U.S. Army.  I have friends who regularly use US military film footage 
so can confirm there is good precedent.  The US government has this 
peculiar notion :-) that was paid for by the public, belongs to the 
public. Would that other governments would follow.

Mike
Stockholm


At 04:02 AM 1/28/2008, maning sambale wrote:
>hi,
>
>Just to double check if this is OK.  I found a collection of  topo
>maps (1:250,000) of the Philippines from Uni of Texas' Library
>[http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/philippines/]. As far as I
>understand, these are in the public domain
>[http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/faq.html#3.html]
>
>Ergo, I can use it for seeding some roads?
>
>cheers,
>
>maning
>
>On Jan 27, 2008 8:30 AM, Dominic Hargreaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 26, 2008 at 07:03:40PM +, Gregory wrote:
> >
> > > I was wondering about going to the local records office to look 
> at old maps.
> > > Maybe use some to speed up an initial set of data for OSM (and building
> > > outlines which I can't get), and maybe just use some for 
> interest to use on
> > > my website etc.
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/New_Popular_Edition
> > might be of interest, if you don't already know about it.
> >
> > Dominic.
> >
> > --
> > Dominic Hargreaves | http://www.larted.org.uk/~dom/
> > PGP key 5178E2A5 from the.earth.li (keyserver,web,email)
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
>
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>|  /'.-c  |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ |
>|  |  /T  |http://esambale.wikispaces.com|
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[OSM-talk] Arezzo Mapping Party .. results

[Edoardo Marascalchi]

(as usual I would apoligize about my bad english)

Andrea made a nice instant-video about the mapping party:

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=WHNwCBqQHtY

20 people joined the first day, they had a couple of local newspapers 
and a local TV. The event was featured on Sunday local newspapers even 
if there are the main political problems in Italy and the European Day 
of Holocaust Remembrance

In the next days some photo gallery on the wiki page.

You can see the results on informationfreeway

http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=43.45591668446809&lon=11.883084584407184&zoom=13&layers=0B00F000F

consider Arezzo isn't covered by yahoo imagery

Edoardo
-- 
Edoardo Marascalchi
ICT Consultant

website: http://www.edoardomarascalchi.it
skype: My status 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent Edits

[Richard Fairhurst]

Martijn van Exel wrote:

> This would be a cool application to show the dynamic nature of
> OpenStreetMap:
>
> http://mw1.google.com/staticfiles/gmre/index.html

Started working on it last night - I'm now waiting for crschmidt to  
appear in IRC so I can ask him so OpenLayers questions!

cheers
Richard

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[OSM-talk] Recent Edits

[Martijn van Exel]

This would be a cool application to show the dynamic nature of  
OpenStreetMap:

http://mw1.google.com/staticfiles/gmre/index.html

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent Edits

[Martijn van Exel]

That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this.

Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable  
the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out  
of date, misplaced,...)

I guess this could be engineered using the AJAX classes of OpenLayers,  
a server side script that puts the markers in the database as  
specially tagged nodes. Of course, we would need some kind of  
notifying system to alert the actual OSM contributors of new flags.

-- 
martijn van exel -+- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+- http://www.schaaltreinen.nl/

Op 28 jan 2008, om 09:14 heeft Richard Fairhurst het volgende  
geschreven:

> Martijn van Exel wrote:
>
>> This would be a cool application to show the dynamic nature of
>> OpenStreetMap:
>>
>> http://mw1.google.com/staticfiles/gmre/index.html
>
> Started working on it last night - I'm now waiting for crschmidt to  
> appear in IRC so I can ask him so OpenLayers questions!
>
> cheers
> Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this.
>
> Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable
> the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out
> of date, misplaced,...)

I made a start here:
http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html
and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be
finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way
to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a
layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What
you need is something like:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI

Which will only fetch the stuff that's in your area, but that code is
a complete hack and there are better ways of doing it, it just hasn't
been written yet.

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent Edits

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Martijn van Exel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable  
> the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out  
> of date, misplaced,...)

I don't know about next step. I would like to see that but I don't
see it as related to the changes display stuff (which doesn't really
seem that useful to me).

> I guess this could be engineered using the AJAX classes of OpenLayers,  
> a server side script that puts the markers in the database as  
> specially tagged nodes. Of course, we would need some kind of  
> notifying system to alert the actual OSM contributors of new flags.

Not as nodes no. The plan is to have a separate table for such things.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent Edits

[Lambertus]

Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable  
> the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out  
> of date, misplaced,...)
> 
> I guess this could be engineered using the AJAX classes of OpenLayers,  
> a server side script that puts the markers in the database as  
> specially tagged nodes. Of course, we would need some kind of  
> notifying system to alert the actual OSM contributors of new flags.
> 
Well I've been thinking about this functionality too with an addition 
where mappers can 'register' a certain area and get notification when 
someone places a marker within that area, supported by some ticket 
functionality like Trac.

This is probably somewhere on the todo list of several people (certainly 
mine, but still some time away). I hope this functionality will be 
available soon as it drastically reduces the threshold to participate.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Kosmos v1.9 - poster printing OSM maps

[Ulf Lamping]

Igor Brejc schrieb:
> Hello Ulf,
>
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Ulf Lamping <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> Hi Igor!
>
> I just wanted to have a short look at the Kosmos source code, just out
> of interest. But I couldn't find it in the OSM svn or on your own
> pages.
>
>
> I haven't (yet) made Kosmos an open source project. I will publish the 
> code on my download pages in the next few days.
Nice!
>
> Funnily I found a LGPL lisense text together with the binaries,
> but not
> the sources.
>
> You are probably referring to the license file of the Flee library - a 
> 3rd party library used in Kosmos for expression evaluation.
>
Ah, now I understand the name of the file ;-)

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Lambertus]

Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this.
>>
>> Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable
>> the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out
>> of date, misplaced,...)
> 
> I made a start here:
> http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html
> and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be
> finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way
> to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a
> layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What
> you need is something like:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI
> 
> Which will only fetch the stuff that's in your area, but that code is
> a complete hack and there are better ways of doing it, it just hasn't
> been written yet.
> 
I have some code for the Garmin download site that determines which 
maptiles reside within a given OL Vector bounding box on the serviside. 
If you're interested I could mail you that.

Not sure if the code will be considered a hack or not though ;-) It's 
probably comparable to the OL example above (haven't looked at it).

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this.
>>
>> Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable
>> the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out
>> of date, misplaced,...)
>
> I made a start here:
> http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html
> and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be
> finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way
> to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a
> layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What
> you need is something like:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI

Displaying the tickets in OL in a relatively low priority thing
though so I wouldn't worry too much (though I think I could do
it anyway).

I think the data model is the thing that really needs fixing down
properly - the rest is mostly pretty simple rails stuff.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Lambertus]

Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> I made a start here:
> http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html
> and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be
> finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way
> to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a
> layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What
> you need is something like:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI
> 
> Which will only fetch the stuff that's in your area, but that code is
> a complete hack and there are better ways of doing it, it just hasn't
> been written yet.
> 

Just looked at your demo and have some remarks:
- Perhaps the report form could be implemented as an OL popup. This 
eliminates the need for a page reload and it looks and behaves like one 
would expect when one ctrl-clicked on the map.

- The 'number of poi problem' might also be solved with a number of 
measures, like:
-- If you send the area watching mapper an email with a hyperlink to the 
map showing the problem POI. This way you'll have only one POI active in 
the map while watching the problem.
-- Corrected/finished reports disappear from the map.
-- Require the map to be zoomed in to certain extend before showing any POI.
-- POI have a maximum lifetime.






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Re: [OSM-talk] Kosmos v1.9 - poster printing OSM maps

[Igor Brejc]

Thanks, I was planning to ask you if you could send me those files :)
I think its probably the case that you have some OSM elements which repeat
in two or more OSM files. I haven't thought about it before, but this is
clearly an issue to be fixed in Kosmos, since if you want to show two
adjacent map areas in separate files, you will almost certainly have some
elements repeated due to the way OSM API works.
It should be easy to fix this, so expect the new version today / tomorrow.

Igor

2008/1/28 nyem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Igor,
>
> I'm using more than one source files. I guess that's where the problem
> is as I can open each source file individually. I can also open more
> than one source files if there's no overlapping node id.
>
> See attached files for my test case.
>
> regards,
> nyem
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers

[Chris Hill]

I've use the waterway=riverbank (as described) on the Humber estuary, the Ouse 
and the Trent; it works well, including using multipolygon relations for 
islands. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.7296&lon=-0.6315&zoom=12&layers=0BFT   
Rendering in Mapnik is good, but the low-zoom Osmarender does not work.  I'm 
not sure if this is a problem with the Osmarender definitions or that the 
low-zoom for the tile just doesn't get run.
cheers,
Chris

- Original Message 
> From: David Groom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Sent: Monday, 28 January, 2008 12:19:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Simone Cortesi" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 4:20 PM
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > is there anything going on withthe "Large Rivers" proposed feature?
> >
> >
> 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Large_rivers
> >
> > For the time being, how do I tag large water bodies? Like the
> Po
> 
 river
> > in North Italy or Rhine in Deutschland?
> >
> 
> Create as shown on that page, but tag natural=water to ensure
> it
> 
 renders in 
> mapnik
> 
> David
> 
> 
> > Thanks,
> > S.
> >
> > -- 
> > Simone Cortesi
> >
> > All that is gold does not glitter;
> > not all those that wander are lost.
> >   J.R.R. Tolkien
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 




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Re: [OSM-talk] searching list archive

[Artem Pavlenko]

Try http://www.nabble.com/OpenStreetMap-f1218.html

Artem
On 28 Jan 2008, at 12:33, Steve Chilton wrote:

> I have been asking to write a review of the peoplesmap.
> As part of the process I wanted to revisit the discussion on talk.
> Can anyone tell me whether it is possible to interrogate
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/
> for keywords?
> Failing that can anyone with more active brain cells than me recall  
> what
> month it might have been in so I can delve through a smaller number of
> sub-files?
>
> Cheers
> STEVE
>
> Steve Chilton, Learning Support Fellow
> Learning and Technical Support Unit Manager
> School of Health and Social Sciences
> Middlesex University
> phone/fax: 020 8411 5355
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Chair of the Society of Cartographers: http://www.soc.org.uk/
>
> SoC conference 2008:
> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/cartographers08/
>
> Google Earth Design:
> http://googleearthdesign.blogspot.com/2007/08/steve-chilton- 
> interview.ht
> ml
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] searching list archive

[Dave Stubbs]

On Jan 28, 2008 12:33 PM, Steve Chilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have been asking to write a review of the peoplesmap.
> As part of the process I wanted to revisit the discussion on talk.
> Can anyone tell me whether it is possible to interrogate
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/
> for keywords?
>


You can use google:
"people's map site:lists.openstreetmap.org" gets lots of hits.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=people%27s+map+site:lists.openstreetmap.org&hl=en&start=10&sa=N
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Re: [OSM-talk] searching list archive

[Jochen Topf]

On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 12:33:50PM +, Steve Chilton wrote:
> Can anyone tell me whether it is possible to interrogate
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/
> for keywords?

You can search through the Google custom search that I created at
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=008972163412949828177%3Alliy0k2y70q

When you see the search results for something you entered, you can
refine the search and restrict it to the mailing lists.

(As a side note: If somebody has some other OSM related web pages that
should be searchable drop me a line and I'll add them.)

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Martijn van Exel]

Well, I think the tickets display and ticket registering is important  
to take participation a step further. You don't want just anyone going  
about making modifications in JOSM or even Potlatch, you need at least  
some idea of the data model and metadata for that. Basically,  
contributing to the map is now limited to people willing to learn to  
use JOSM or Potlatch.

I think it would be a good idea to discuss this flagging possibility  
for 'the rest of us'. This would open up collaboration possibilities  
for location based platforms. For example Bliin[1], a location based  
social network. They already use OSM data for their mobile client. I  
met with them last week and they are very enthusiastic about OSM and  
really want to 'return the favor'. Just have their users upload traces  
to OSM wouldn't be of much use in itself. But if they would implement  
a 'OSM flagging' functionality in their client, their users would be  
able to contribute to OSM. They could flag for example a limited  
number of categories: street layout change, new street, new POI  
(again, limited number of categories), maybe a few more.

This is just one example of possible contributions by OSM data users  
who are now only passive. I think this is something to consider and  
discuss.

[1] http://www.bliin.com/
-- 
martijn van exel -+- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+- http://www.schaaltreinen.nl/

Op 28 jan 2008, om 10:33 heeft Tom Hughes het volgende geschreven:

> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
>   Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this.
>>>
>>> Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to  
>>> enable
>>> the general public to flag locations where something is not right  
>>> (out
>>> of date, misplaced,...)
>>
>> I made a start here:
>> http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html
>> and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be
>> finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way
>> to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a
>> layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map.  
>> What
>> you need is something like:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI
>
> Displaying the tickets in OL in a relatively low priority thing
> though so I wouldn't worry too much (though I think I could do
> it anyway).
>
> I think the data model is the thing that really needs fixing down
> properly - the rest is mostly pretty simple rails stuff.
>
> Tom
>
> -- 
> Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> http://www.compton.nu/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Copyright and old maps

[Laurence Penney]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>   Just as a reference, all maps made available at Oxford's Central
>>   Library are facsimiles of the original collection and they apply a
>>   non-commercial licence to all useage of them (may or may not stand
>>   up in law, but I can't afford lawyers).  Oxford University
>>   Library's Map Room bans cameras/etc and will only allow copies to
>>   be made by staff, with a similar licence applied.
> 
> If you managed to sneak in a camera and use it, would the resulting
> images then be free of their licensing ideas?

Whatever the status of the images, you've still broken your agreement 
with the library, if you allow them into commercial usage. So they may 
decide to cancel your library card, ban you from the premises, block 
everybody's free access to maps in future, and demand compensation if 
that's in the terms & conditions you implicitly agreed to.

-- L


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[OSM-talk] searching list archive

[Steve Chilton]

I have been asking to write a review of the peoplesmap.
As part of the process I wanted to revisit the discussion on talk.
Can anyone tell me whether it is possible to interrogate
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/
for keywords?
Failing that can anyone with more active brain cells than me recall what
month it might have been in so I can delve through a smaller number of
sub-files?

Cheers
STEVE

Steve Chilton, Learning Support Fellow
Learning and Technical Support Unit Manager
School of Health and Social Sciences
Middlesex University
phone/fax: 020 8411 5355
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Chair of the Society of Cartographers: http://www.soc.org.uk/

SoC conference 2008:
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/cartographers08/

Google Earth Design:
http://googleearthdesign.blogspot.com/2007/08/steve-chilton-interview.ht
ml



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Re: [OSM-talk] Feedback System

[Adam Boardman]

> I think the data model is the thing that really needs fixing down
> properly - the rest is mostly pretty simple rails stuff.

The 'other' go at this has the following suggested fields:
http://burghthof.nl/osm/apiinfo.php

I would suggest the addition of a longer description field where more of 
an argument can be added (a note under query could have multiple people 
adding text to this). Also fields for whether the note has been 
actioned.

Giving:

 * lat
 * lon
 * short note
 * longer note
 * email (for requesting more info from submitter)
 * date
 * state/stage (new, under review, fully processed)

>From looking at kleptog's one it has more of a structure to the 
feedback, I would suggest that if such options are presented they make 
up the content of the short note, eg: 'Road - Missing road', 'Poi - Name 
incorrect'. That way we can have the same data model with different 
front ends, also makes it easy to add extra options to the list offered. 
(For reference WhereAmI already feeds data into the burghthof note 
system - I would hope to be able to move these to the official system 
for processing).

Cheers,

Adam.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Feedback System

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On Jan 28, 2008 1:40 PM, Adam Boardman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The 'other' go at this has the following suggested fields:
> http://burghthof.nl/osm/apiinfo.php
>
> I would suggest the addition of a longer description field where more of
> an argument can be added (a note under query could have multiple people
> adding text to this). Also fields for whether the note has been
> actioned.

Yes, a longer description field is useful for giving more info. I
would suggest a ticket number, so you don't get discussion like: I
fixed that bug near Timbuktoo. Assigned by the server ofcourse :)

> From looking at kleptog's one it has more of a structure to the
> feedback, I would suggest that if such options are presented they make
> up the content of the short note, eg: 'Road - Missing road', 'Poi - Name
> incorrect'. That way we can have the same data model with different
> front ends, also makes it easy to add extra options to the list offered.

Sounds good to me. I just figured that directed questions would be
useful for getting more info out of lay users. But I wasn't thinking
of special storage for it.

I think we're 90% of the way already, it just needs to be finished.

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Lambertus]

You have to think outside the OSM box here. This proposal will make it 
extremely easy for non-OSM'ers (non-mappers that is) to signal: "Look, 
there's something wrong". They maybe able to provide the solution, maybe 
not.

The point is: there is no need to understand mapping, tags, editors etc. 
Just point, click and type what's wrong. Dead-easy and intuitive for 
everyone.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers

[Chris Hill]

Hmmm, you're right, Mapnik render of riverbank is not as good as I thought.  It 
would be good to get this sorted out.  waterway tags feels better than 
natural=water, but that said breaking up the river into arbitrary chucks 
doesn't feel right either. 
cheers,
Chris

- Original Message 
> From: David Groom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Sent: Monday, 28 January, 2008 1:16:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
> 
> 
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Chris Hill" 
> > To: "David Groom" ; 
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
> >
> >
> > I've use the waterway=riverbank (as described) on the Humber
> estuary,
> 
 the 
> > Ouse and the Trent; it works well, including using
> multipolygon
> 
 relations 
> > for islands. 
> >
> 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.7296&lon=-0.6315&zoom=12&layers=0BFT 
> > Rendering in Mapnik is good, but the low-zoom Osmarender does
> not
> 
 work. 
> > I'm not sure if this is a problem with the Osmarender definitions
> or
> 
 that 
> > the low-zoom for the tile just doesn't get run.
> > cheers,
> 
> Chris , are you sure the mapnik rendering is good?  For instance a bit 
> further inland on  the Humber
> 
> see 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.49024&lon=-0.77102&zoom=15&layers=B0FT 
> the rendering is not what you might expect. I think what you are
> seeing
> 
 in 
> mapnik is the solid blue fill taken from the original import of the UK 
> coastline data. Whereas the area outlined in blue, but not filled
> is
> 
 the 
> rendering of waterway = riverbank.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> > Chris
> >
> > - Original Message 
> >> From: David Groom 
> >> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> Sent: Monday, 28 January, 2008 12:19:06 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message - 
> >> From: "Simone Cortesi"
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 4:20 PM
> >> Subject: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > is there anything going on withthe "Large Rivers"
> proposed
> 
 feature?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Large_rivers
> >> >
> >> > For the time being, how do I tag large water bodies? Like the
> >> Po
> >>
> > river
> >> > in North Italy or Rhine in Deutschland?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Create as shown on that page, but tag natural=water to ensure
> >> it
> >>
> > renders in
> >> mapnik
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > S.
> >> >
> >> > -- 
> >> > Simone Cortesi
> >> >
> >> > All that is gold does not glitter;
> >> > not all those that wander are lost.
> >> >   J.R.R. Tolkien
> >> >
> 
> 
> 
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[OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways

[Tom Chance]

Hello,

I'm a bit confused about these tags:

railway=viaduct
bridge=yes
cutting=yes
embankment=yes

I assume that 'viaduct' covers these sort of elevated rail lines so that
bridges are just for, well, bridges over other ways:
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/images/uploaded/scaled/railway_viaduct_aerial.jpg
http://www.betterpublicbuildings.gov.uk/assets/images/finalists_2006/jamestown/jamestown_large.jpg
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/content/images/2005_1745.JPG

Why is it not a property like bridge, cutting etc. and will it render
correctly? Should it be changed to viaduct=yes?

The train lines around south London are pretty much always one of the
above and I'd like to get the tagging right.

Kind regards,
Tom


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Rob]

i've worked with crschmidt to make a (prototype) notes system
demo is working on http://burghthof.nl/osm/index.php

this is just a test to see if it is usable

it's also used in the "where am i" application for the symbian phones
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways

[matthew-osm]

On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 05:57:24PM +, Tom Chance wrote:
> I'm a bit confused about these tags:
> 
> railway=viaduct
> bridge=yes
> cutting=yes
> embankment=yes
> 
> Why is it not a property like bridge, cutting etc. and will it render
> correctly? Should it be changed to viaduct=yes?

Ewww, yuck... boolean flags.

Personally I would tag as:

  railway=rail
  bridge=viaduct

for cutting I would have thought more like (this is a suggestion, there
is probably a better way):

  railway_level=-1  or  railway_level=cutting

and for embankment

  railway_level=1  or  railway_level=embankment

Map features has the really odd (IMO):

  railway=viaduct (node)
  highway=viaduct (node)

with the comment of something like "A high or long bridge...". "long"
and "node" don't go together as far as I am concerned ;-). You also don't
know what type of railway goes over the viaduct, as you lose the railway=
information.

A possible, but slightly odd, example would be an underground train going
above ground and over a viaduct - it would be railway=subway, bridge=viaduct.
If memory is correct, I think the DLR does that in some places in London
(railway=light_rail, bridge=viaduct)?

Not sure what others do, though...

Cheers,

-- 
Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent Edits - sketching?

[OJW]

On Monday 28 January 2008 15:22:20 Lambertus wrote:
> You have to think outside the OSM box here. This proposal will make it
> extremely easy for non-OSM'ers (non-mappers that is) to signal: "Look,
> there's something wrong". They maybe able to provide the solution, maybe
> not.

One of the things pyroute could do was sketch onto a map, e.g. to draw some 
changes that need to be made, without knowing anything about nodes or tags

it's kind of similar to a paper map, where anyone could draw corrections on it 
without having to "learn" anything.  Maybe something like that would be 
useful for gathering corrections from casual users?

[pyroute can't upload the images to a server yet, but it's trivial code to 
add.  It can already export sketches as GPX files that you can view* in JOSM]

Perhaps a web-based idea could be used (based on potlatch code, with crayons 
instead of tags?), which allows sketching "notes to OSM". Save them onto a 
map image layer, and list the sketching sessions as "recent changes" (like 
tracklog thumbnails in OSM)

Regards,

OJW



* although that exposes a "feature" of JOSM where it draws a line between the 
end of each tracklog and the beginning of the next...


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[OSM-talk] tag vote open - crematorium

[Robin Paulson]

this has been open for discussion for several months now, woth no
major unanswered objections

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Crematorium

voting is now open, for two weeks

thanks

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[OSM-talk] tag vote open - ferry terminal

[Robin Paulson]

this has been open for comments for several months now, with no
objections. time to open voting

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Ferry_Terminal

thanks

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Re: [OSM-talk] OT: suggestions for mapping software

[Robert T Wyatt]

Thanks! I've forwarded these comments and one about freegis.org back
to the original list.

Igor Brejc wrote:
> And if he waits for a day or two, he will also be able to print this map
> within Kosmos using whatever scale he needs.
> 
> Regards,
> Igor
> 
> Gregory wrote:
>> If he adds the old names (old_name=) to the OSM then he can render
>> them how he wants with this program:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Kosmos

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Sent: 28 January 2008 7:01 PM
>To: Tom Chance
>Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways
>
>On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 05:57:24PM +, Tom Chance wrote:
>> I'm a bit confused about these tags:
>>
>> railway=viaduct
>> bridge=yes
>> cutting=yes
>> embankment=yes
>>
>> Why is it not a property like bridge, cutting etc. and will it render
>> correctly? Should it be changed to viaduct=yes?
>
>Ewww, yuck... boolean flags.
>
>Personally I would tag as:
>
>  railway=rail
>  bridge=viaduct
>

bridge and viaduct are two separate types of structure so strictly speaking
bridge=viaduct is incorrect.

>for cutting I would have thought more like (this is a suggestion, there
>is probably a better way):
>
>  railway_level=-1  or  railway_level=cutting
>
>and for embankment
>
>  railway_level=1  or  railway_level=embankment
>

We already use layer=+/-5 for setting display layering and I always
envisaged the same simple system could be used for cuttings and embankments.

>Map features has the really odd (IMO):
>
>  railway=viaduct (node)
>  highway=viaduct (node)
>

I think these are legacy from when I first put up map features when we
didn't have ways and all that and I wanted some method of showing a viaduct
icon. Could be wrong. No harm in leaving this as the tag for a node though.

>with the comment of something like "A high or long bridge...". "long"
>and "node" don't go together as far as I am concerned ;-). You also don't
>know what type of railway goes over the viaduct, as you lose the railway=
>information.
>
>A possible, but slightly odd, example would be an underground train going
>above ground and over a viaduct - it would be railway=subway,
>bridge=viaduct.
>If memory is correct, I think the DLR does that in some places in London
>(railway=light_rail, bridge=viaduct)?
>

I'd prefer to see railway=rail for all rail corridors and a secondary tag
for the type of service/stock used - ie metrorail/subway/underground/freight
etc etc etc

But it's no big deal to understand what's implied without extra tagging.

Cheers

Andy


>Not sure what others do, though...
>
>Cheers,
>
>--
>Matthew
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers

[Jeremy Adams]

I think the lowzoom for osmarender does not understand waterway=riverbank. 
Higher zoom (>12) seems to work well however.  I know 80n is working on a 
new setup for lowzoom rendering with osmarender, so I don't think there will 
be changes in the existing setup for now.

-Jeremy


- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "David Groom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers


> I've use the waterway=riverbank (as described) on the Humber estuary, the 
> Ouse and the Trent; it works well, including using multipolygon relations 
> for islands. 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.7296&lon=-0.6315&zoom=12&layers=0BFT 
> Rendering in Mapnik is good, but the low-zoom Osmarender does not work. 
> I'm not sure if this is a problem with the Osmarender definitions or that 
> the low-zoom for the tile just doesn't get run.
> cheers,
> Chris
>
> - Original Message 
>> From: David Groom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>> Sent: Monday, 28 January, 2008 12:19:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Simone Cortesi"
>> To:
>> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 4:20 PM
>> Subject: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
>>
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > is there anything going on withthe "Large Rivers" proposed feature?
>> >
>> >
>>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Large_rivers
>> >
>> > For the time being, how do I tag large water bodies? Like the
>> Po
>>
> river
>> > in North Italy or Rhine in Deutschland?
>> >
>>
>> Create as shown on that page, but tag natural=water to ensure
>> it
>>
> renders in
>> mapnik
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > S.
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > Simone Cortesi
>> >
>> > All that is gold does not glitter;
>> > not all those that wander are lost.
>> >   J.R.R. Tolkien
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> >
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Patrick Weber]

Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:

On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this.

Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable
the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out
of date, misplaced,...)



I made a start here:
http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html
and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be
finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way
to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a
layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What
you need is something like:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI

Which will only fetch the stuff that's in your area, but that code is
a complete hack and there are better ways of doing it, it just hasn't
been written yet.

Have a nice day,
  
I am not shure that I fully understand the usefulness of such a system. 
As I understand it, it would enable users to highlight something 
missing, or not right, on the slippymap and underlying OSM Data. I had a 
look at the proposed system prototype. Now, if someone goes to the 
trouble of browsing the slippymap, sees a problem, and then starts 
filling out the report form (which is quite verbose), why not help that 
user correct the problem himself? We can guide them on how to add/change 
a POI, or draw a new road?


Just reporting the problem, and then hoping someone else goes back and 
fixes it seems unproductive. I still think of OSM as a Wiki, and anyone 
should be encouraged to make changes. I suspect that very often, we will 
have reports saying, "hey the street I live in is missing here" , and 
then you still need to somehow add that road, be it through local 
knowledge (which the original report written most probably has, and is 
gone if he believes that it will get sorted if he reports it, and that 
is less than certain) and/or external datasources (tracklogs, yahoo 
image layer , ... ).


In analogy of a Wiki, we could implement "talk" pages for geographic 
areas, where one can then discuss for example the short comings of the 
current OSM data revision, ideological discussions about a place name 
and so on... That's where I see the benefit of such a "notes/tracs" 
system, not in simply highlighting problems.


Cheers
Patrick

begin:vcard
fn:Patrick Weber
n:Weber;Patrick
org:University College London
adr:;;Gower Street;London;;WC1E 6BT;United Kingdom
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Engineering Doctorate Student
tel;work:02077185430
url:http://www.ucl.ac.uk/cemi
version:2.1
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Re: [OSM-talk] Copyright and old maps

[Gervase Markham]

Michael Collinson wrote:
> An excellent find!
> 
> Yes, they are perfect for OSM use.

There's a load of stuff on there that might be useful, actually. I don't 
know how often Japanese or Korean cities change their street layout, but:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/index.html
e.g.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/japan_city_plans/txu-oclc-6558024.jpg

Gerv


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[OSM-talk] vote closed/proposal rejected - mining

[Robin Paulson]

this has been open for vote for 6 weeks now, it has closed with 6 yes
votes, 1 no vote and 3 votes which are ambiguous. in future, please
either vote yes for the proposal or against it, not for part of it and
against part of it, or we will never get anywhere.

if you have objections, these should be raised and addressed during
the discussion period - the vote should not be opened until they have
been answered; that is what the RFC is for

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Mining

this proposal has been rejected, it will be moved to the rejected features page.

i will put up a new proposal for tagging mines, which addresses the
concerns made in this proposal

thanks

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[OSM-talk] new proposal - surface_mine

[Robin Paulson]

this proposal has been created out of the rejected Mining tag, which
was defeated at vote. it is solely for surface mines - pit mines are
now covered by the Mineshaft proposal

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/surface_mine

this proposal is now open for comments

thanks

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Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers

[David Groom]

> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chris Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "David Groom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
>
>
> I've use the waterway=riverbank (as described) on the Humber estuary, the 
> Ouse and the Trent; it works well, including using multipolygon relations 
> for islands. 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.7296&lon=-0.6315&zoom=12&layers=0BFT 
> Rendering in Mapnik is good, but the low-zoom Osmarender does not work. 
> I'm not sure if this is a problem with the Osmarender definitions or that 
> the low-zoom for the tile just doesn't get run.
> cheers,

Chris , are you sure the mapnik rendering is good?  For instance a bit 
further inland on  the Humber

see 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.49024&lon=-0.77102&zoom=15&layers=B0FT 
the rendering is not what you might expect. I think what you are seeing in 
mapnik is the solid blue fill taken from the original import of the UK 
coastline data. Whereas the area outlined in blue, but not filled is the 
rendering of waterway = riverbank.

David


> Chris
>
> - Original Message 
>> From: David Groom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>> Sent: Monday, 28 January, 2008 12:19:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Simone Cortesi"
>> To:
>> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 4:20 PM
>> Subject: [OSM-talk] Large Rivers
>>
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > is there anything going on withthe "Large Rivers" proposed feature?
>> >
>> >
>>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Large_rivers
>> >
>> > For the time being, how do I tag large water bodies? Like the
>> Po
>>
> river
>> > in North Italy or Rhine in Deutschland?
>> >
>>
>> Create as shown on that page, but tag natural=water to ensure
>> it
>>
> renders in
>> mapnik
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > S.
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > Simone Cortesi
>> >
>> > All that is gold does not glitter;
>> > not all those that wander are lost.
>> >   J.R.R. Tolkien
>> >



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Re: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

Tom Chance wrote:
>Sent: 28 January 2008 5:57 PM
>To: Talk Openstreetmap
>Subject: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways
>
>Hello,
>
>I'm a bit confused about these tags:
>
>railway=viaduct
>bridge=yes
>cutting=yes
>embankment=yes
>

railway=viaduct doesn't sound right.

Sticking my civil engineering hat on for a minute,

viaduct=true|yes|1 would be correct for a multispan bridge carrying anything
other than water (which would be aqueduct=true|yes|1)

A bridge is a single span structure carrying anything other than water.
Water doesn't have a single span equivalent, just use aqueduct= still.

A cutting or an embankment is what the transport corridor has been built on
when the natural ground rather than a structure is being considered. Almost
all transport corridors have traditionally been built using the "Mass Haul
Curve" principal which attempts to balance the amount you cut out with the
amount to fill to make embankments. This process keeps the road or rail
alignment as close to a constant or manageable grade as possible while
minimizing the distances you have to transport spoil.

For sections of a route not sitting on a structure there are actually three
conditions:
cutting
embankment
at_grade

The latter is where no excavation has been made (other than the removal of
topsoil and any other unsuitable surface deposits).

Cheers

Andy

>I assume that 'viaduct' covers these sort of elevated rail lines so that
>bridges are just for, well, bridges over other ways:
>http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/images/uploaded/scaled/railway_viaduct_
>aerial.jpg
>http://www.betterpublicbuildings.gov.uk/assets/images/finalists_2006/jamest
>own/jamestown_large.jpg
>http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/content/images/2005_1745.JPG
>
>Why is it not a property like bridge, cutting etc. and will it render
>correctly? Should it be changed to viaduct=yes?
>
>The train lines around south London are pretty much always one of the
>above and I'd like to get the tagging right.
>
>Kind regards,
>Tom
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] I've removed historic=icon from map features

[Marc Schütz]

I have now created two proposals:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/wayside_shrine
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/wayside_cross

Regards, Marc


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[OSM-talk] vote closed/proposal approved - crane

[Robin Paulson]

this has been open for voting for 2 weeks, and has now closed. it has
been approved, with 6 yes votes and 0 no votes

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/crane

it will be moved to the map features and approved features page

thanks

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Patrick Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am not shure that I fully understand the usefulness of such a
> system. As I understand it, it would enable users to highlight
> something missing, or not right, on the slippymap and underlying OSM
> Data. I had a look at the proposed system prototype. Now, if someone
> goes to the trouble of browsing the slippymap, sees a problem, and
> then starts filling out the report form (which is quite verbose), why
> not help that user correct the problem himself? We can guide them on
> how to add/change a POI, or draw a new road?

The idea is to have a 30 second way for somebody to report a 
problem rather than them having to register and then learn how
to make the edit, which probably has a minimum bootstrap time
of an hour.

> Just reporting the problem, and then hoping someone else goes back and
> fixes it seems unproductive. I still think of OSM as a Wiki, and
> anyone should be encouraged to make changes. I suspect that very
> often, we will have reports saying, "hey the street I live in is
> missing here" , and then you still need to somehow add that road, be
> it through local knowledge (which the original report written most
> probably has, and is gone if he believes that it will get sorted if he
> reports it, and that is less than certain) and/or external datasources
> (tracklogs, yahoo image layer , ... ).

Obviously reporting missing streets is generally not very helpful
unless it is in area that look well surveyed, in which case it can
draw attention to a street that has been missed. Going to a blank
area of the map and entering a ticket that "Foo St" is not there
is clearly not helpful but that isn't really the target for this.

The target is things like reports of misspellings or missing data
in otherwise well surveyed areas.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

I wrote the following two weeks ago because I felt that the talk list
was a bit flooded by administrative "voting ends", "voting opens",
"comments requested" etc. messages:

>would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" or so - to which all tag proposals and
> requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for
> informal community chat?

At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should
either create an extra list or have one condensed "voting issues"
posting per week (or so). 

Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion:
Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. 

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] I've removed historic=icon from map features

[Ulf Lamping]

Marc Schütz schrieb:
> I have now created two proposals:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/wayside_shrine
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/wayside_cross
>   
Hi Marc!

First of all, I'm not against putting these things into OSM as they 
often can be used as a good landmark in rural areas.


Actually I'm a bit unsure about these two proposals because:

- maybe they are too detailed - so we will end up with a lot of very 
detailed but highly related tags (which are then hard to learn)
- maybe put both proposals under religion? Won't these often still be 
used for local pilgrimage so their "not so historic"? Or course this is 
a border case, as most of these are often rather old.
- there's already historic=memorial 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tag:historic%3Dmemorial which 
interferes with your proposals I think. Maybe simply use it and extend 
it, add a subtag for these special memorials? AFAIK, often these wayside 
things were raised to "thank god and virgin Mary that I've survived this 
thunderstorm in 1857" or such - so in fact they are a sort of memorial 
anyway ;-) However, as these are often weathered, today it might be hard 
to find out what actually is being memorized upon.


Again, I'm just unsure how to find a good tagging solution for this, but 
I'm not convinced of the current proposals ...

Regards, ULFL

P.S: While I tend to put comments into the proposal page, I didn't want 
to have two discussions about the same thing - so I'll use the ML for 
this one.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Robin Paulson]

On 29/01/2008, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wrote the following two weeks ago because I felt that the talk list
> was a bit flooded by administrative "voting ends", "voting opens",
> "comments requested" etc. messages:
>
> >would it make sense to create a new mailing list - say
> > "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" or so - to which all tag proposals and
> > requests for comments/votes could be directed, and reclaim talk@ for
> > informal community chat?
>
> At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should
> either create an extra list or have one condensed "voting issues"
> posting per week (or so).
>
> Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion:
> Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions.

i think the consensus was for both a new list and a weekly condensed
e-mail, otherwise if there was only one e-mail a week, the time lag on
people working on new/revised/old items would be huge

who administers the lists?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> Simply move the proposal stuff into a different list without this  
> posting is probably a very bad move, since this tends to become the  
> "elitist circle" that most people want to avoid (including myself).

I don't consider the whole voting business "elitist". I'd say it is
one (of many) possible approaches and everyone who wants to use this
process can participate in the mailing list. The process should not be
forced onto all readers of talk.

> So is someone really willing to do the extra work to collect the "voting  
> issues" posting weekly? I'm personally not, Robin maybe?

If someone would do that then the extra mailing list could perhaps be
dropped, with discussion taking place on the Wiki and one
"digest"-type mail per week on talk. If, however, nobody wants to do
the work, then an extra list is all the more important to make talk
readable again! You can't flood talk with all these messages and then
say this has to be so because nobody wants to write digests...?

> If we find someone, who is doing the above job we might start with this  
> summary posting in talk, in addition to the current postings and see how  
> it works out.

No, pleae not *in addition*, talk is difficult to follow as it is!

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00.09' E008°23.33'


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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Ulf Lamping]

Frederik Ramm schrieb:
> At the time, I thought we had somewhat of a consensus that we should
> either create an extra list or have one condensed "voting issues"
> posting per week (or so). 
>   
I don't think that 'or' is the right word here. If we want to split 
these topics into a seperate list, we really need someone to write down 
the "voting issues" posting per week.

Simply move the proposal stuff into a different list without this 
posting is probably a very bad move, since this tends to become the 
"elitist circle" that most people want to avoid (including myself).


So is someone really willing to do the extra work to collect the "voting 
issues" posting weekly? I'm personally not, Robin maybe?
> Alas, not much has changed since then, so I repeat the suggestion:
> Let's create an extra list for formal aspects of tagging discussions. 
>   
If we find someone, who is doing the above job we might start with this 
summary posting in talk, in addition to the current postings and see how 
it works out.

Then move over the "normal proposal discussion" to the new list a few 
weeks later if the summary tends to work ...


Regards, ULFL

P.S: I could even imagine a real automated system that will do all the 
proposal/RFC/voting stuff, collect it and send out such mails, but this 
is way beyond our current developer manpower I think.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Ulf Lamping]

Frederik Ramm schrieb:
> Hi
>> Simply move the proposal stuff into a different list without this  
>> posting is probably a very bad move, since this tends to become the  
>> "elitist circle" that most people want to avoid (including myself).
>> 
> I don't consider the whole voting business "elitist". I'd say it is
> one (of many) possible approaches and everyone who wants to use this
> process can participate in the mailing list. The process should not be
> forced onto all readers of talk.
>   
Well, as I said, it *could become* elitist if it's split out to a 
seperate list - and no one on talk not subscribed to 
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" even notices what's going on.
>> So is someone really willing to do the extra work to collect the "voting  
>> issues" posting weekly? I'm personally not, Robin maybe?
>> 
> If someone would do that then the extra mailing list could perhaps be
> dropped, with discussion taking place on the Wiki and one
> "digest"-type mail per week on talk. If, however, nobody wants to do
> the work, then an extra list is all the more important to make talk
> readable again! You can't flood talk with all these messages and then
> say this has to be so because nobody wants to write digests...?
>   
Well, if nobody wants to write digests, then IMHO it's just not a good 
idea to move to a seperate mailing list.
>> If we find someone, who is doing the above job we might start with this  
>> summary posting in talk, in addition to the current postings and see how  
>> it works out.
>> 
> No, pleae not *in addition*, talk is difficult to follow as it is!
>   
Well, one additional mail per week is probably not a problem on talk.

I just want to be sure to have a mechanism tried out and working before 
we take action to split the lists.


I perfectly understand that the amount of proposal/RFC/voting mail 
traffic is big on an even otherwise huge mailing list - and I perfectly 
agree that some action is a good idea here.

However, simply "banning" this stuff from talk ASAP just because you and 
some others might not be interested in - without thinking how it could 
seamlessly work in the future?

Regards, ULFL


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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> Well, if nobody wants to write digests, then IMHO it's just not a good  
> idea to move to a seperate mailing list.

Well in that case I'd say let's just bin the whole voting process and
live happily ever after ;-)

> However, simply "banning" this stuff from talk ASAP just because you and  
> some others might not be interested in - without thinking how it could  
> seamlessly work in the future?

I think it is not a secret that I am mostly ignoring the voting. My
rationale behind this is: If people decide stuff that makes sense to
me, then I'll use it anyway; if they decide stuff that does not make
sense to me, then I won't, and will tag things differently. I might
offer an idea now and again, but on the whole I don't feel that I have
to fight for reason because if something unreasonable gets decided I
will ignore it and be happy. This is great, because in a stricter
environment I might have to spend half of my time shooting down
nonsensical proposals or fighting for those which are good.

I think it is good that people discuss future tagging of things but in
my eyes the easy things ("what shop=xxx key to use for horticulture
shops") should just be decided by the first person to encounter them,
without much fuss, and the more complex things like a complete
proposal for tagging bodies of water can never be done justice in a
vote. So, personally, I don't see a lot of merit in the voting process
per se. The voting process as a reason for people to think about stuff
and to clean up proposals and ideas, yes; but as a decision maker, no.

This leads to my view that the whole "formal" part - "opening" and
"closing" discussions or voting periods, counting of votes, announcing
results and so on, is really ... It's hard to find the right words
without offending those who spend time with that, but I feel it is
somewhat unnecessary, it is not the core issue.

I tend to stay quiet about this because I feel that OSM is a project
with a very wide range of activities for everyone, and if there are
some who actually like these formal things, who like executing the 
voting process and so on, then so be it, I don't want to tell them 
not to do it, unless they interfere too much with my own freedom.

But recently I think that compared to the relative un-importance the
voting process has in OSM, the list is really overburdened with voting
stuff. I would like to ask those interested in voting and formal
discussions to either show some restraint or just create a list of 
their own, much like we've done in the past when e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
discussion on the main lists was too much for a topic that few were
interested in. Voting is not a central issue for OSM.

Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Robin Paulson]

On 29/01/2008, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Well, if nobody wants to write digests, then IMHO it's just not a good
> > idea to move to a seperate mailing list.

well, if other people keep up with the rfc open, tag vote open, etc.
categories i put together last week, it should be pretty easy to
produce digests. we just copy whatever's there into an e-mail. i'll
have a look at expanding them, see if the process can be reduced to a
few clicks.

> sense to me, then I won't, and will tag things differently. I might
> offer an idea now and again, but on the whole I don't feel that I have

good, we don't want to lose people who do that

> to fight for reason because if something unreasonable gets decided I
> will ignore it and be happy. This is great, because in a stricter

> I think it is good that people discuss future tagging of things but in
> my eyes the easy things ("what shop=xxx key to use for horticulture
> shops") should just be decided by the first person to encounter them,

well, it's not always that obvious. or people may think it's obvious,
but it's not. so we consult the wisdom of crowds

> without much fuss, and the more complex things like a complete
> proposal for tagging bodies of water can never be done justice in a
> vote. So, personally, I don't see a lot of merit in the voting process

i don't know a better way. the more people get involved the better.

> per se. The voting process as a reason for people to think about stuff
> and to clean up proposals and ideas, yes; but as a decision maker, no.
>
> This leads to my view that the whole "formal" part - "opening" and
> "closing" discussions or voting periods, counting of votes, announcing
> results and so on, is really ... It's hard to find the right words
> without offending those who spend time with that, but I feel it is
> somewhat unnecessary, it is not the core issue.

don't worry, i won't be. no, really. we're all aiming for the same thing here

i happen to think it's useful, partly because most proposals turn up
things that otherwise would stay unsaid - i learn a hell of a lot
reading people's discussions. even the ones that are complete bollocks

at the very least, i think we're tagging objects a lot more
descriptively/usefully than anyone else making a map, be that navteq,
os, government departments or whoever, and that's a direct consequence
of the way we discuss tags. as it matures, it's going to be
phenomenally powerful and that only happens when people discuss the
progression

> I tend to stay quiet about this because I feel that OSM is a project
> with a very wide range of activities for everyone, and if there are
> some who actually like these formal things, who like executing the
> voting process and so on, then so be it, I don't want to tell them

well, i don't do it because i like it - i'm not that pedantic. i do it
because i see a need for those tags.

> But recently I think that compared to the relative un-importance the
> voting process has in OSM, the list is really overburdened with voting
> stuff. I would like to ask those interested in voting and formal

well, there are 200+ types of objects that people want to tag, with no
idea on how to tag them, so they ask for advice from the group, and we
need to sift through those to the tags that have merit. one at a time.
they are important enough for people to want them, meaning we can't
delete them, so we work on them gradually, over time

> discussions to either show some restraint or just create a list of
> their own, much like we've done in the past when e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> discussion on the main lists was too much for a topic that few were
> interested in. Voting is not a central issue for OSM.

well, that's how we create the tags you and everyone else use, so i'm
not sure how unimportant it is, even if it's not central

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[Ulf Lamping]

Frederik Ramm schrieb:
> Hi,
>   
>> Well, if nobody wants to write digests, then IMHO it's just not a good  
>> idea to move to a seperate mailing list.
>> 
> Well in that case I'd say let's just bin the whole voting process and
> live happily ever after ;-)
>   
Hopefully I'm too well behaved to answer this one in the tone it deserves.
>> However, simply "banning" this stuff from talk ASAP just because you and  
>> some others might not be interested in - without thinking how it could  
>> seamlessly work in the future?
>> 
> I think it is not a secret that I am mostly ignoring the voting. My
> rationale behind this is: If people decide stuff that makes sense to
> me, then I'll use it anyway; if they decide stuff that does not make
> sense to me, then I won't, and will tag things differently. I might
> offer an idea now and again, but on the whole I don't feel that I have
> to fight for reason because if something unreasonable gets decided I
> will ignore it and be happy. This is great, because in a stricter
> environment I might have to spend half of my time shooting down
> nonsensical proposals or fighting for those which are good.
>   
Yes, I know that lot's of advanced OSM people work with the "I know how 
to tag my stuff" model that is nowhere else described as in their heads. 
That is all well for you if you ignore the problems that results of this.

One example: In may 2007 when I started OSM there was a "map features" 
page with nothing but a list of tags but almost *no information* what 
these tags might actually stand for - a direct consequence of the "I 
know how to tag my stuff" model. As I've added descriptions to lot's of 
tags on this page, it turned out that there are problems in the way 
people actually use the map features (missunderstandings, 
inconsistencies, ...).

These problems are not solved until today, mostly because of the "I know 
how to tag my stuff" model that is very hard to change once it's settled.

By having a better description of the tags we add today - we hopefully 
might be able to avoid much of these problems in the future.
> I think it is good that people discuss future tagging of things but in
> my eyes the easy things ("what shop=xxx key to use for horticulture
> shops") should just be decided by the first person to encounter them,
> without much fuss,
If you would follow the proposals, you would know that even those "easy 
things" are often not so easy as it first seems. But yes, I remember you 
are ignoring this as you already know better ...
>  and the more complex things like a complete
> proposal for tagging bodies of water can never be done justice in a
> vote. 
Why not and what's the alternative?
> So, personally, I don't see a lot of merit in the voting process
> per se. The voting process as a reason for people to think about stuff
> and to clean up proposals and ideas, yes; but as a decision maker, no.
>   
Please have a look at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features and see what's 
the result in not doing any such decisions: literally hundreds of 
unfinished proposals that are almost useless as it's very hard to find, 
read and use them.

I mean, what's your alternative to find a decision if some proposal is a 
good thing and should go into the map features or better not? Simply 
add/remove it and wait for some nice edit wars? Wait for a year until 
people come up with enough data in OSM to realize that we have the same 
problems for the new tags as we have with the existing ones?


I know the voting is not perfect and there will be wrong decisions that 
needs to be revisited. But the alternatives I've heard so far are 
causing much more problems and will take much longer to get any (and/or 
probably in the end worse) results IMO.

Regards, ULFL


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Re: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways

[Gervase Markham]

Tom Chance wrote:
> Why is it not a property like bridge, cutting etc. and will it render
> correctly? Should it be changed to viaduct=yes?

Indeed. And also aqueduct=yes. But we're revisiting the canal question 
again ;-)

Gerv


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