[OSM-talk] josm installer for windows is back

[Joerg Ostertag (OSM Tettnang/Germany)]

For all the windows fans who want to have a simple install method for there 
josm. Please try the installers at
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/download/windows/
and give us feedback. The installer will normally be build every morning. The 
Version Numbers reflect the svn-revision of the josm and the osm repository.
josm-setup-latest.exe will always be a symlink to the newest Version.

-- 
Jörg (Germany, Tettnang)

http://www.ostertag.name/

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Making OSM Public domain

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

this is a posting calling upon everyone to work together in spite of 
"political" differences.

Peter Miller wrote:
> My concern on this list at present is that all the discussion about PD/SA
> politics is making this process harder. Please please can the PD advocates
> get their own list (within OSM or outside) and take their valuable political
> conversation there

The issue is not going to go away just by telling people to please talk 
elsewhere. The very "process" that you speak of has no legitimation or 
authority in the project that would make it immune against being questioned.

The PD community has the same right to talk to the OSM public and try to 
get their support as anyone else in OSM. The foundation is in no 
position to dictate a new license to the project, and neither am I or 
you. The foundation said that they believe PD would face too much 
opposition but that's just a wild guess; nobody has ever even tried to 
ask the OSM contributors, and the foundation does not, to my knowledge, 
intend to. The foundation has not, to my knowledge, honestly 
investigated the pros and cons of PD versus trying to build your custom 
international IP license, but instead started out from the presumption 
that nothing less than share-alike will do. The foundation does not own 
the project and has as much right as anyone else to draw up a new 
license and try to get it accepted.

We're steering this ship based on wild guesses, assumptions, and gut 
feelings. In this situation, it is even more understandable that it is 
very uncomfortable to have people questioning the course of the ship 
because you have no facts or evidence to indicate that you're right.

I am fully aware that the whole PD/SA discussion makes things harder; 
everyone had just about accepted that we won't go PD when a new group of 
  people comes in with renewed energy and you start thinking that maybe 
they do have a point.

I also think that we won't be able to go PD at this time, but we have to 
take these people seriously and we have to get them on board, rather 
than telling them to shut up because everything is decided already - 
because, in fact, nothing is decided and if we create a situation where 
they feel compelled to reach out to the OSM contributors and ask them to 
reject the ODbL in favour of a PD dedication, maybe with a hint of 
conspiracy thrown in ("the foundation wants you to accept this license 
but they're just pushing through their agenda..."), then we are all 
worse off.

The arguments for PD are sound and valid, as are those for the ODbL or 
other licenses. Real people are behind these arguments, people who can 
read and think and make up their mind about what they believe is best. 
Telling them to shut up and go away will not help anyone.

I am a staunch defender of PD superiority myself, but prepared to accept 
the ODbL/FIL construct as a step in the right direction. I think if we 
take them seriously then we can convince them to join that.

If we tell them to shut up and go away, they might answer "no, YOU shut 
up and go away", and what would we do then? "We have been here for 
longer than you have" can hardly be a working argument in a project 
whose membership doubles every few months.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane

[Stephen Hope]

"Passenger service vehicles (PSVs) are:

* vehicles used in a passenger service (no matter how many seating
positions they might have)
* vehicles with more than 12 seating positions (whether they're
used for hire or reward or not)
* heavy motor vehicles with more than nine seating positions"

So Taxis, Shuttles, Buses, some minivans (the big ones have 14 seats).
 I have a friend with a horse float that qualifies.

In reality, it's almost always buses that use the PSV lanes, but some
other vehicles are allowed in some places.

Stephen

2008/10/23 Matthias Julius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> "Stephen Hope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Not all PSV's are buses.
>
> What else?
>
> Matthias
>
> ___
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[OSM-talk] Voting on enforcement (traffic law enforcement)

[Tristan Scott]

Can people please have a look at this proposal and vote please?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Traffic_enforcement

This is modified after the previous proposal threw up comments about
collionions with highway=traffic_signals last time.

As for the Compass directions as well as way-ward directions... I
expected some nodes to apply to directions rather than specific ways,
and also for some nodes to not be on a way and have no specific area
of effect (van commonly behind this bush here pointing north towards
this motorway junction for example)
enforcement_direction which is on a way and applies only to the way
it's on would use the (proposed) along/opposite/both tags.
Maybe that needs to be made more clear in the proposal?

Anyway - Can people have a look and vote please!

-- 
Tristan Scott BSc(Hons)
Yare Valley Technical Services
www.yvts.co.uk
07837 205829

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Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane

[Tristan Scott]

In my experience (Norwich, UK) a so-called "bus lane" is often a Bus,
taxi and cycle lane. The overlords of roads in norwich often nobble
cars by shutting down a small portion of a short-cut ("rat run") by
making a bottleneck area bus lane. Therefore taxis carry on using the
shortcut, and cars must go join the queue on the main road through.

the point is that it's not often (at least in the uk) that a bus lane
does not also mean taxis.

Not sure if cyclists are allowed in bus lanes but in my experience
cyclists, by virtue of not having numberplates, are immune to all
traffic laws, and simply ignore any and all restrictions anyway.

Tristan

2008/10/26 Stephen Hope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> "Passenger service vehicles (PSVs) are:
>
>* vehicles used in a passenger service (no matter how many seating
> positions they might have)
>* vehicles with more than 12 seating positions (whether they're
> used for hire or reward or not)
>* heavy motor vehicles with more than nine seating positions"
>
> So Taxis, Shuttles, Buses, some minivans (the big ones have 14 seats).
>  I have a friend with a horse float that qualifies.
>
> In reality, it's almost always buses that use the PSV lanes, but some
> other vehicles are allowed in some places.
>
> Stephen
>
> 2008/10/23 Matthias Julius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> "Stephen Hope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>> Not all PSV's are buses.
>>
>> What else?
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
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-- 
Tristan Scott BSc(Hons)
Yare Valley Technical Services
www.yvts.co.uk
07837 205829

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[OSM-talk] Introductory OSM slides

[Inge Wallin]

So, I gave a presentation about OpenStreetMap to the participants of the Free 
Software Conference Scandinavia today (fscons.org). I looked for some slides 
that I could use but didn't find anything so I had to roll my own.  

Now I want to make these available for others who are in the same situation as 
I was, but perhaps aren't as used to create presentations like this as I am. 
And even if you are, it will still save a lot of time.

It's 35 slides with lots of pictures.  The ODP file is 6 MB, and the PDF file 
is 3 MB.  Where would be a good place to put them?
-Inge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Introductory OSM slides

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Domingo, 26 de Octubre de 2008, Inge Wallin escribió:
> It's 35 slides with lots of pictures.  The ODP file is 6 MB, and the PDF
> file is 3 MB.  Where would be a good place to put them?

Lots of people use slideshare. Also, there is some material at the OSM SVN 
repository. Both places seem sensible choices for me.

-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta compleja.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane

[Matthias Julius]

"Tristan Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> In my experience (Norwich, UK) a so-called "bus lane" is often a Bus,
> taxi and cycle lane. The overlords of roads in norwich often nobble
> cars by shutting down a small portion of a short-cut ("rat run") by
> making a bottleneck area bus lane. Therefore taxis carry on using the
> shortcut, and cars must go join the queue on the main road through.
>
> the point is that it's not often (at least in the uk) that a bus lane
> does not also mean taxis.

Since this is not the case everywhere in the world I guess having
separate bus and taxi tags (or busway and taxiway) are needed.

It would be good if someone could update the psv tag on Map Features
to clarify that this also includes taxis.

Matthias

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Re: [OSM-talk] Introductory OSM slides

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
> Lots of people use slideshare. Also, there is some material at the OSM SVN 
> repository. Both places seem sensible choices for me.

Can you get a PDF or anything processible out of Slideshare? I thought 
it was a Flash platform.

SVN has the stuff under /misc/lectures.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Introductory OSM slides

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Domingo, 26 de Octubre de 2008, Frederik Ramm escribió:
> Can you get a PDF or anything processible out of Slideshare? I thought
> it was a Flash platform.

Go to bugmenot.com for a login account, log in to slideshare, then you can 
download a pdf, or a ppt, or whatever it was uploaded in the first place.


-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[Barnett, Phillip]

I seem to have found a zombie way - every time I delete it in Potlatch it 
reappears 30 secs later. I've done this four or five times now. Any ideas?

Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called Duckett Road 
underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, at 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF

[http://www.itn.co.uk/images/ITN_Master_blue.gif]
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Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[sergio sevillano]

i have checked and seems to delete ok with potlach
...


Barnett, Phillip escribió:


I seem to have found a zombie way -- every time I delete it in 
Potlatch it reappears 30 secs later. I've done this four or five times 
now. Any ideas?


 

Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called 
Duckett Road underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, at 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF 
 
 

 
 
**

*PHILLIP BARNETT
**SERVER MANAGER
*
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LONDON
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Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio]

Hi. I can't see it from JOSM (08:00 pm London time). I don't think it's in the 
database.
 
cheers,
Lucas
 



De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] en nombre de Barnett, Phillip
Enviado el: dom 26/10/2008 19:55
Para: talk@openstreetmap.org
Asunto: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch



I seem to have found a zombie way - every time I delete it in Potlatch it 
reappears 30 secs later. I've done this four or five times now. Any ideas? 

 

Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called Duckett Road 
underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, at 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF
  

 
 
PHILLIP BARNETT
SERVER MANAGER

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LONDON
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Re: [OSM-talk] SEO

[Gregory]

Since Firefox 3 (search as you type now in the address bar, it finds urls or
page titles you've previously been to, even if you type something mid-url),
I've been apending &map=Durham to the permalink url.
I haven't been using that for a link, but it means next time I want to view
the same area I just have to type in map=Durham to bring back the address.
Maybe title= would be more suitable.

2008/10/25 Xav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> What would be fantastic is urls of this kind :
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/london/
> ...for a lot of medium and big cities.
>
> The reason is to encourage people to use these URLs for their own use on
> their pages. With the current URLs to OSM (with lat and lon),  the
> robots can't know that a URL links to london or berlin or lyon.
>
> Xav
>
> ___
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-- 
Gregory
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [OSM-talk] Introductory OSM slides

[Shaun McDonald]

On 26 Oct 2008, at 18:30, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:


El Domingo, 26 de Octubre de 2008, Frederik Ramm escribió:
Can you get a PDF or anything processible out of Slideshare? I  
thought

it was a Flash platform.


Go to bugmenot.com for a login account, log in to slideshare, then  
you can
download a pdf, or a ppt, or whatever it was uploaded in the first  
place.




That only works is the person who uploaded the file has enabled the  
option to allow people to download the file.


Shaun



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Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[Shaun McDonald]

The history shows that it has been deleted.
http://openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8184385/history

It is one of the ways that xybot has touched.

Interestingly prior to xybot touching it, there was a tag without a  
key nor value.


Shaun

On 26 Oct 2008, at 20:03, Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio wrote:

Hi. I can't see it from JOSM (08:00 pm London time). I don't think  
it's in the database.


cheers,
Lucas


De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] en nombre de Barnett, Phillip
Enviado el: dom 26/10/2008 19:55
Para: talk@openstreetmap.org
Asunto: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

I seem to have found a zombie way – every time I delete it in  
Potlatch it reappears 30 secs later. I’ve done this four or five  
times now. Any ideas?


Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called  
Duckett Road underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, athttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF



PHILLIP BARNETT
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email?


Please Note:



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Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[sergio sevillano]

then is me, who deleted it finally. As requested by phillip (it worked 
with potlach)...


Shaun McDonald escribió:

The history shows that it has been deleted.
http://openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8184385/history

It is one of the ways that xybot has touched.

Interestingly prior to xybot touching it, there was a tag without a 
key nor value.


Shaun

On 26 Oct 2008, at 20:03, Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio wrote:

Hi. I can't see it from JOSM (08:00 pm London time). I don't think 
it's in the database.
 
cheers,

Lucas
 



*De:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 en nombre de Barnett, Phillip

*Enviado el:* dom 26/10/2008 19:55
*Para:* talk@openstreetmap.org 
*Asunto:* [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

I seem to have found a zombie way – every time I delete it in 
Potlatch it reappears 30 secs later. I’ve done this four or five 
times now. Any ideas?


 

Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called 
Duckett Road underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, 
athttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF 
  
 
 
**

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**SERVER MANAGER
*
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LONDON
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E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[Barnett, Phillip]

Weird.
The history shows no trace whatsoever of my five attempts to delete it (and 
yes, I moved off the way and selected another to make sure changes were 
uploaded)

Maybe I lost upstream connection to the OSM server at that time...?



From: sergio sevillano [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 October 2008 20:34
To: Shaun McDonald
Cc: Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio; Barnett, Phillip; talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

then is me, who deleted it finally. As requested by phillip (it worked with 
potlach)...

Shaun McDonald escribió:
The history shows that it has been deleted.
http://openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8184385/history

It is one of the ways that xybot has touched.

Interestingly prior to xybot touching it, there was a tag without a key nor 
value.

Shaun

On 26 Oct 2008, at 20:03, Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio wrote:


Hi. I can't see it from JOSM (08:00 pm London time). I don't think it's in the 
database.

cheers,
Lucas



De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] en nombre de Barnett, Phillip
Enviado el: dom 26/10/2008 19:55
Para: talk@openstreetmap.org
Asunto: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch
I seem to have found a zombie way - every time I delete it in Potlatch it 
reappears 30 secs later. I've done this four or five times now. Any ideas?

Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called Duckett Road 
underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, 
athttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF

[%20]
PHILLIP BARNETT
SERVER MANAGER

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LONDON
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Re: [OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane

[Alex S.]

Matthias Julius wrote:
> "Tristan Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> the point is that it's not often (at least in the uk) that a bus lane
>> does not also mean taxis.
> 
> Since this is not the case everywhere in the world I guess having
> separate bus and taxi tags (or busway and taxiway) are needed.

In the USA, bus-only restrictions are common, and do not include other 
vehicle types.  There are 'HOV' restrictions that do, however, though 
any vehicle with more than the posted number of passengers are allowed 
in those lanes.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Monday 27 October 2008 12:25:25 am Barnett, Phillip wrote:
> Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called Duckett
> Road underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B0
>00FTF

slightly off-topic, but looking at this I find the roads do not appear to 
coincide with the satellite image, although the river does - is this common 
in your area - or is something wrong with my screen?

-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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[OSM-talk] osm2pgsql & planet: frustrations, cutoffs, and idempotence

[Michal Migurski]

Hi,

I've been trying to keep up to date with the dumps and diffs from 
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/ 
, and I'm running into a number of bugs related to cutoff dates.

In keeping my Bay Area tiles 
(http://mike.teczno.com/notes/cascadenik-openstreetmap.html 
) up to date, I've been grabbing complete planet.osm dumps about once  
per month, and filling in the intervening time with daily diffs. I've  
noticed some misalignments between the data in the dumps and the  
osm2pgsql importer that leads to unavoidable holes in the data.

It seems that they could be fixed in either osm2pgsql, the planet  
files, or both.

The final event in each weekly planet dump does not fall on an even  
day boundary. In the case of the most recent Oct. 22nd planet.osm, it  
was necessary to experiment with hourly diffs from that day to find  
that the boundary was approx. 2:00pm. Hourlies up to and including  
2008102213-2008102214.osc.gz failed, hourlies after that succeeded. I  
could go more granular here, checking the minute diffs as well for a  
more precise breakpoint, but it seems odd that the planet dump does  
not break cleanly on a midnight boundary so that it's possible to pick  
up the differences moving forward.

osm2pgsql itself notifies the user of inconsistencies by failing. I  
can see that effort has been put into making it more resilient (e.g. 
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/changeset/10464) 
. Does osm2pgsql have something like a `--force` switch? I haven't  
been able to find one. In looking at the diff files, it seems that it  
should be possible to ignore possible conflicts by simply overwriting  
whatever's in the DB with whatever's in the .osc file.

Finally, the boundaries between the hourlies and dailies seem  
misaligned.

After running the remaining hourlies for the 22nd, I attempted to pick  
up on the 23rd with a daily. The final hourly I used was  
2008102223-2008102300.osc.gz. It's my expectation that I should be  
able to immediately follow that with 20081023-20081024.osc.gz, but  
this led to duplicate key violation suggesting that there's an overlap  
between the two files. Continuing with hourlies *works*, but is  
tedious and I suspect slower than the dailies.

My sense from reading other people's experiences has been that it's a  
common pattern to rely solely on the weekly planet dumps, incurring  
the substantial overhead of parsing and importing the full 5GB dump  
once every week, and then re-rendering the complete set of tiles.

My hope has been to proceed in a more incremental fashion, since this  
makes it possible to track what specific tiles need to be re-rendered  
on a near-constant schedule, based on actual content or activity, vs.  
simple cache expiration. Right now I'm doing this daily, I'd like to  
do it as often as hourly.

I can see a few possible solutions.

The cutoff times for files on planet.openstreetmap.org could behave  
more consistently. A weekly dump should end at 11:59pm so that dailies  
can immediately pick up user activity. Hourly and daily dumps should  
be synchronized. This seems more difficult.

Or, osm2pgsql could be more fault-tolerant, so that potentially- 
overlapping .osm and .osc files can be safely used. As long as they  
are applied in chronological order, repetitions should be idempotent.  
Is this just a matter of futzing with the SQL commands to suppress  
index key collisions?

-mike.


michal migurski- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  415.558.1610




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Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql & planet: frustrations, cutoffs, and idempotence

[Tom Hughes]

Michal Migurski wrote:

> The final event in each weekly planet dump does not fall on an even  
> day boundary. In the case of the most recent Oct. 22nd planet.osm, it  
> was necessary to experiment with hourly diffs from that day to find  
> that the boundary was approx. 2:00pm. Hourlies up to and including  
> 2008102213-2008102214.osc.gz failed, hourlies after that succeeded. I  
> could go more granular here, checking the minute diffs as well for a  
> more precise breakpoint, but it seems odd that the planet dump does  
> not break cleanly on a midnight boundary so that it's possible to pick  
> up the differences moving forward.

Planet dumps are not snapshots - they do not represent a consistent view 
at any particular point in time because they take a number of hours to 
generate, during which time new changes are constantly being made to the 
contents of the database.

I believe that it is supposed to be safe to apply diffs which overlap 
with the planet dump in order to bring it to a consistent state however.

> The cutoff times for files on planet.openstreetmap.org could behave  
> more consistently. A weekly dump should end at 11:59pm so that dailies  
> can immediately pick up user activity. Hourly and daily dumps should  
> be synchronized. This seems more difficult.

As explained above, there is no cutoff time as such, and it isn't 
possible to implement one as things stand. It may be possible once we 
have working transactions, though it's not clear that a transaction that 
lasts many hours would be sensible or workable.

BTW I'm not sure why you CCed the OSMF board on this... I don't think it 
needs their input at all.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Making OSM Public domain

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

A Morris wrote:
> This is a textbook example of the pro-PD propaganda I mentioned.

Which I created on purpose to counter your textbook examples of pro-SA 
propaganda. I really thought you were doing that on purpose (the usual 
FUD stuff about evil people locking away data and so on), I didn't think 
these were meant as a real input to our discussion, I thought you wanted 
to illustrate what can go wrong when writing polls.

> * The number of users will be "much smaller"... Thats it? That's your
> concrete argument? It's hand-waving propaganda with no basis in fact,
> and with no evidence; in fact the number of users of Linux vs FreeBSD
> is strong evidence against your position.

Come on, we've been there. You make an useless comparison with software 
by citing Linux and BSD, I'll ask you to point me to a GPL licensed web 
server with more users than Apache. "In fact, this is a strong evidence 
against your position!". (But at least we have lighttpd fighting for 
proper Freedom on that front... oh noes! They're BSD also. We're doomed.)

> * You then assert that "legitimate users will be unable to use the
> project". Again, a specious argument, seeing as the new license is not
> yet written. 

This is a fundamental thing and not something you can write a license to 
solve, and something you could have thought of yourself if you had taken 
time to read and think rather than just fire off textbook phrases. The 
problem arises not from the particular wording of a license, but from 
the basic concept of share-alike. Either you want to force people to 
release proprietary data they combine with OSM, or you don't.

My pet example is this: Student writes thesis on public transport, gets 
lots of data from local transport authority under the provision that it 
is only used for academic purposes (maybe proprietary; maybe legally 
protected because drivers' whereabouts can be derived from the data 
etc.). Student wants to combine this with OSM data for his analyses. Now 
EITHER the license allows this, but then it will also allow the 
transport authority themselves to use the data without releasing stuff - 
or it doesn't, which will then lead to our student calling TeleAtlas and 
asking them for a free "academic" sample of their data he can use, 
sending out the message: OSM is all nice and dandy but if you want to do 
serious work, better call TeleAtlas.

Now depending on how hardcore you are, you'll say: Tough luck, the 
student should use his time to talk the transport authority into 
releasing the data under a license compatible with ours. You might even 
say: Tough luck, so the student is not a legitimate user. Both of which 
seem quite cynical to me.

If you're not that cynical and have a good idea to make the above 
scenario work for the student in question without going against basic 
share-alike, I suggest that you offer that idea in this forum or make it 
known to those working hard to draft the new license (whomever you 
believe them to be).

> I really don't want to respond to every silly little post regarding
> the PD/share-alike debate, but I feel that propaganda bordering on
> untruthfulness needs to be challenged.

It looked to me like your aim was rather to respond in kind.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[OSM-legal-talk] Use cases: Click-through

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

since everyone now seems to flock to their respective lawyers, use 
cases in one hand and license draft in the other ;-), I have added an 
extra use case on the "click-through" topic, basically saying that we'd 
like to avoid having to set up a tightly controlled environment where 
everyone has to make sure to only pass the data on to people who have 
agreed to some legal document beforehand.

The current situation is that everyone can *have* the data, the license 
only comes into play when people what to *do* something with it. I'd 
like to keep it that way - rather than saying "read this license before 
you can even *have* the data".

Use case here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Brief_for_proposed_OSM_licence#Freely_distribute_OSM_data_without_registration.2Fuser_tracking

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql & planet: frustrations, cutoffs, and idempotence

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Michal Migurski wrote:
> I've noticed some misalignments between the data in the dumps and the  
> osm2pgsql importer that leads to unavoidable holes in the data.

As TomH has already said, this is not a bug, it stems from the fact that 
the full planet export reads the "current" tables and as such is subject 
to changes that occur during the export process. (There may even be 
inconsistencies when something like this happens: Exporter dumps nodes, 
exporter starts dumping ways, user adds new node into way, new way 
version is dumped referring to new node that is not in the dump.)

The daily, hourly, and minutely diffs have a clean cutoff date because 
they are taken from the history tables.

Brett Henderson has offered to look into creating the dailies from 
history as well, but I don't know about the status of that.

If you use osmosis, it is safe (and in fact recommended) that, after 
loading the database with a planet file initially, you should load that 
same day's diff file as the first diff, creating a clean cutoff point. 
It is possible that the same is not working with osm2pgsql, I have no 
experience there.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql & planet: frustrations, cutoffs, and idempotence

[Michal Migurski]

>> The final event in each weekly planet dump does not fall on an  
>> even  day boundary. In the case of the most recent Oct. 22nd  
>> planet.osm, it  was necessary to experiment with hourly diffs from  
>> that day to find  that the boundary was approx. 2:00pm. Hourlies up  
>> to and including  2008102213-2008102214.osc.gz failed, hourlies  
>> after that succeeded. I  could go more granular here, checking the  
>> minute diffs as well for a  more precise breakpoint, but it seems  
>> odd that the planet dump does  not break cleanly on a midnight  
>> boundary so that it's possible to pick  up the differences moving  
>> forward.
>
> Planet dumps are not snapshots - they do not represent a consistent  
> view at any particular point in time because they take a number of  
> hours to generate, during which time new changes are constantly  
> being made to the contents of the database.

Shouldn't it be possible to ignore any changes that happen after the  
cutoff, though? I may not understand the structure of the OSM  
database, but it seems like if it supports rollbacks, then in theory  
it ought to be possible to only include things before a given  
timestamp when creating the dump file. That, or make it clear what the  
actual cutoff time is in the dumpfile.

I understand that in practice, practice is different from theory. =)


> I believe that it is supposed to be safe to apply diffs which  
> overlap with the planet dump in order to bring it to a consistent  
> state however.

This is what I would have hoped, however osm2pgsql does not appear to  
allow it. It feels like the easiest solution would be to give  
osm2pgsql a --force option, and add some explanation of timing and  
cutoffs to http://planet.openstreetmap.org/README.


> BTW I'm not sure why you CCed the OSMF board on this... I don't  
> think it needs their input at all.

Mikel Maron suggested that I cc: team@, when I spoke to him about this  
a few days ago, because it's connected to a *.openstreetmap.org service.

Thanks for your reply!

>

-mike.


michal migurski- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  415.558.1610




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Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql & planet: frustrations, cutoffs, and idempotence

[Michal Migurski]

On Oct 26, 2008, at 5:50 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Brett Henderson has offered to look into creating the dailies from  
> history as well, but I don't know about the status of that.
>
> If you use osmosis, it is safe (and in fact recommended) that, after  
> loading the database with a planet file initially, you should load  
> that same day's diff file as the first diff, creating a clean cutoff  
> point. It is possible that the same is not working with osm2pgsql, I  
> have no experience there.


What is the difference between osmosis and osm2pgsql, with regards to  
postGIS?

If I've been maintaining a dataset based on osm2pgsql with the  
provided default.style, would a dataset based on osmosis result in a  
substantially different table structure?

-mike.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Unable to delete way in Potlatch

[Shaun McDonald]

On 27 Oct 2008, at 00:04, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

> On Monday 27 October 2008 12:25:25 am Barnett, Phillip wrote:
>> Way number 8184385, which is a previously unwayed segment called  
>> Duckett
>> Road underlying a properly wayed road of the same name, at
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.579649&lon=-0.101266&zoom=18&layers=B0
>> 00FTF
>
> slightly off-topic, but looking at this I find the roads do not  
> appear to
> coincide with the satellite image, although the river does - is this  
> common
> in your area - or is something wrong with my screen?
>

What makes you think that the data doesn't follow the Yahoo?

It looks fine here.

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql & planet: frustrations, cutoffs, and idempotence

[Shaun McDonald]

On 27 Oct 2008, at 00:50, Michal Migurski wrote:

>>> The final event in each weekly planet dump does not fall on an
>>> even  day boundary. In the case of the most recent Oct. 22nd
>>> planet.osm, it  was necessary to experiment with hourly diffs from
>>> that day to find  that the boundary was approx. 2:00pm. Hourlies up
>>> to and including  2008102213-2008102214.osc.gz failed, hourlies
>>> after that succeeded. I  could go more granular here, checking the
>>> minute diffs as well for a  more precise breakpoint, but it seems
>>> odd that the planet dump does  not break cleanly on a midnight
>>> boundary so that it's possible to pick  up the differences moving
>>> forward.
>>
>> Planet dumps are not snapshots - they do not represent a consistent
>> view at any particular point in time because they take a number of
>> hours to generate, during which time new changes are constantly
>> being made to the contents of the database.
>
> Shouldn't it be possible to ignore any changes that happen after the
> cutoff, though?

At the moment we don't look at the time stamps when dumping the planet  
file.

> I may not understand the structure of the OSM
> database, but it seems like if it supports rollbacks, then in theory
> it ought to be possible to only include things before a given
> timestamp when creating the dump file. That, or make it clear what the
> actual cutoff time is in the dumpfile.

We currently don't support rollbacks. It would require a rewrite of  
the dump script, and more time and processing to be able to produce a  
consistent planet dump.

>
>
> I understand that in practice, practice is different from theory. =)

Have you got the rails port running?

>
>
>
>> I believe that it is supposed to be safe to apply diffs which
>> overlap with the planet dump in order to bring it to a consistent
>> state however.
>
> This is what I would have hoped, however osm2pgsql does not appear to
> allow it. It feels like the easiest solution would be to give
> osm2pgsql a --force option, and add some explanation of timing and
> cutoffs to http://planet.openstreetmap.org/README.
>

The initial import that you do with osm2pgsql, must be using a special  
mode to allow diff imports. Could it be that you need to update to the  
latest version of osm2pgsql? You should be able to happily apply the  
diffs to an inconsistent planet dump, to get a consistent planet dump.

This will become easier when the version numbers are exposed in the  
0.6 API. The diff mechanism would then be able to look at the version  
numbers of the nodes/ways/relations and be able to deal with them  
appropriately.

Shaun


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