[OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Bernhard Zwischenbrugger]

Hi all

I made a comparison Google Maps - OSM for all capitals.
http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/index.php

Some cities like Havanna have wrong coordinates. No idea why the 
namefinder thinks that Havanna in the USA is more important, than 
Havanna in Cuba.



---

Bernhard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Simone Cortesi]

2008/11/28 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Some cities like Havanna have wrong coordinates. No idea why the namefinder
> thinks that Havanna in the USA is more important, than Havanna in Cuba.

Official name for the capital of Cuba isn't perhaps "La Habana"?

-S

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Friday 28 November 2008 03:06:25 pm 80n wrote:
> Excellent. This really brings home how well OSM is progressing globally.
>
> BTW can you fix London, UK?  It's displaying East London, South Africa.

and New Delhi is not shown at all

-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Grant Slater]

Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On Friday 28 November 2008 03:06:25 pm 80n wrote:
>   
>> Excellent. This really brings home how well OSM is progressing globally.
>>
>> BTW can you fix London, UK?  It's displaying East London, South Africa.
>> 
>
> and New Delhi is not shown at al

And...
Paris, France... Instead of Paris, USA.

/ Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Patrick Kilian]

Hi,

> I made a comparison Google Maps - OSM for all capitals.
> http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/index.php
First of all: Thanks for the effort to build this comparison.

It's very interessting that OSM is good in many of the "less famous"
capitals, but not (yet) as good for the really big ones. Of course there
are a couple of exceptions to this.


Patrick "Petschge" Kilian

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 09:12, Simone Cortesi wrote:
> 2008/11/28 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
>> Some cities like Havanna have wrong coordinates. No idea why the namefinder
>> thinks that Havanna in the USA is more important, than Havanna in Cuba.
> 
> Official name for the capital of Cuba isn't perhaps "La Habana"?

There isn't a name:en tag for Havana.

And note that the en name is spelled Havana, not Havanna.

So it's no wonder it didn't find it.

However, having said that, if two places are marked as cities, it is 
random as to which is shown first, I make no value judgments as to 
"importance" in the search other than by ranking the place according to 
city,town etc. There appear to be no cities at all in the index named 
'Havana'.

Paris is the same. The one in Ontario is also a city, and I have no 
mechanical means of distinguishing them.

London I'm not sure about - still checking.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[80n]

Bernhard
Excellent. This really brings home how well OSM is progressing globally.

BTW can you fix London, UK?  It's displaying East London, South Africa.

80n

2008/11/28 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Hi all
>
> I made a comparison Google Maps - OSM for all capitals.
> http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/index.php
>
> Some cities like Havanna have wrong coordinates. No idea why the namefinder
> thinks that Havanna in the USA is more important, than Havanna in Cuba.
>
>
> ---
>
> Bernhard
>
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[David Earl]

The discussion of finding Paris Ontario equated to Paris France just now 
reminds me to raise again the granularity of our place hierarchy. 
Notwithstanding value judgements people make about what is a "town", not 
just based on population, I still think we need some more levels in the
city - town - village - hamlet hierarchy.

I could use population in the namefinder (and ditto for caption size, 
priority etc in renderers) if that were given more widely, but the 
problem is that in the UK at least this information is subject to crown 
copyright (I assume any one figure is a fact, and therefore not 
copyright, but the collection is database copyright).

I think we could do with a richer hierarchy something like this:
metropolis> 500,000
city  > 100,000
large_town> 25,000? 40,000?
town  > 10,000
small_town / large_village > 2,500
village   > 100
hamlet< 100

I'm sure we can argue about the names and numbers, but I don't think 
that's too important as people will always bring their own local 
knowledge to bear as well, not least based on what the place chooses to 
call itself. For example, Hay-on-Wye (Y-Gelli), Powys is most definitely 
a town even though it has fewer than 2,000 people, but Linton, 
Cambridgeshire is a "village" of nearly 5,000 souls.

Another possibility is to make judgements about "importance" based on 
land area. I think this would be hard, though not completely impossible, 
to infer automatically from the data, but I wonder if a "radius" value 
on the place might help - "a circle approximately this big would enclose 
the place". Perhaps over-exaggerates coastal settlements and others 
which aren't blobs, so can only be a coarse judgement, but it might help 
me in deciding what "in" and "near" mean in the context of searches, 
especially for places which "punch above their weight".

David




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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places & search results

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 11:42, Tom Chance wrote:
> Two tagging thoughts and three search ideas...

All very helpful suggestions. I will look at taking those on board 
(though some are more TomH's end than mine).

One thing that would help a lot is if US places were assigned is_in 
tags. There's quite al ot I can do with these if only the information 
were more comprehensive.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 11:48, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
> There aren't that many cities with duplicate/multiple names. So I'd guess a
> wiki page where they are listed and the community decides a stacking order
> would be straightforward enough. Obviously doing it at lower levels this
> approach wouldn't work. Info can then be tagged and used by namefinder?

I take your point, but the general case is not just the namefinder - 
it's also about how large the captions are on renderings and whether 
place A or B gets the caption when the two would overlap.

So we need to know relative importance in general, not just between 
far-apart places with the same names.

Some kind of "importance" tag could do the job, but how we define it in 
a reasonably objective way that could be applied to more than just a few 
special cases is hard, unless we use things like population, local role 
and area, in which case why not tag these things directly.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Dave Stubbs]

2008/11/28 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> hi
>>
>> and New Delhi is not shown at all
>>
>>
>
> There were some bugs with spaces, commas,... (urlencode)
> They are fixed now.
>
> There are still some problems.
>
> The capitals come from this list
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals
>
> The name of the city is given to namefinder.
> The first item namefinder returns is displayed on the map.
>
> At the moment there are problems with:
>
> Paris - wrong Paris found
> London - missing (found an other London)
> Washington, D.C. - not found
> Honiara - not found
> Kuwait City - not found
> Melekeok (Palau) - not found
> Mexico City - not exact
> N'Djamena (Chad) - found in france
> Palikir (Mikronesia) - not found
> Phnom Penh (Cambodia) - not found
> Naypyidaw (Myanmar) - not found
> South Tarawa (Kiribati) - not found
> Sri Jayawardenepura( Sri Lanke) - not found
> Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia) - not found
> Yaren (Nauru) -not found
>

And Rabat which is found in Malta rather than Morocco.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 12:02, Bernhard Zwischenbrugger wrote:
> hi
>> and New Delhi is not shown at all
>>
>>   
> There were some bugs with spaces, commas,... (urlencode)
> They are fixed now.
> 
> There are still some problems.
> 
> The capitals come from this list
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals
> 
> The name of the city is given to namefinder.
> The first item namefinder returns is displayed on the map.

I think that's an invalid assumption that the first item is necessarily 
a capital city of that name.

As someone pointed out, capital cities are usually marked as such in the 
tags, and I should take note of that and let you make your search more 
efficient.

However, if we start applying similar techniques to state captials or 
other hierarchies, a search inferred from a loose syntax will not be 
enough and I need to provide a more formal way for mechanical clients to 
constrain their searches. As it stands "city" is ambiguous - it is both 
a category and part of some names (to wit, "Mexico City").

> At the moment there are problems with:
> 
> Paris - wrong Paris found

As I said, they're both cities and at present I have nothing to 
distinguish them.

I am always irritated by online Yellow Pages which asks me every 
time which Cambridge I want - the big city or the tiny hamlet in 
Gloucestershire. Surely they could give me Cambridge city and say "click 
here for the lesser Cambridge" which almost no one would want

> London - missing (found an other London)
> Washington, D.C. - not found

The comma is a bit of syntax for namefinder.

Also state abbreviations (OK, DC's it's not a state exactly, but it has 
the same role here) are not stored anywhere in OSM data. I hope to 
improve this in due course, and as I said, is_in tags would help enormously.

But in the end, the name of the place is "Washington", not "Washington, 
D.C." is it not? You don't ask for "Canberra, NSW" do you (sorry if it's 
not in NSW, just a guess)?

> Mexico City - not exact

Cuidad de Mexico? doesn't seem to have a name:en tag. (You could add 
one; ditto Havana).

> N'Djamena (Chad) - found in france

only because there isn't apparently any place on the map with that name, 
and there is a street.

> Honiara - not found
> Kuwait City - not found
> Melekeok (Palau) - not found
> Palikir (Mikronesia) - not found
> Phnom Penh (Cambodia) - not found
> Naypyidaw (Myanmar) - not found
> South Tarawa (Kiribati) - not found
> Sri Jayawardenepura( Sri Lanke) - not found
> Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia) - not found
> Yaren (Nauru) -not found

Are these simply because they aren't on the map, or should I look at 
them for problems?

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places & search results

[Tom Chance]

Sorry, neglected to send this to the list...

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:14:54 +, David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> The discussion of finding Paris Ontario equated to Paris France just now 
> reminds me to raise again the granularity of our place hierarchy. 
> Notwithstanding value judgements people make about what is a "town", not 
> just based on population, I still think we need some more levels in the
> city - town - village - hamlet hierarchy.

Two tagging thoughts and three search ideas...

Tags 1 - Yes, let's have more granularity in the
city/town/village/suburb/hamlet schema, and let someone run through their
regions updating places

Tags 2 - Use administrative importance as well, i.e. we properly mark when
places are capitals of countries / regions / local government / etc. so
they get boosted up the search ranks. Bedford (UK) comes up 10th below a
load of insignificant looking US towns.


Search 1 - Guess the searcher's country by IP and prioritise those results,
if I'm in the UK I'm probably going to only want UK results unless I
specify "Bedford, USA"

Search 2 - Show country flags by results, maybe even group results by
city/town/etc. and then within those categories by country. When searching
for Bedford I had to look at the coordinates because I didn't realised
"Town Bedford, about 5km north of Wixams" was the right one.

Search 3 - Show pinpoints for the results on the map, so at least you can
quickly discard all those results from the wrong side of the globe.

Kind regards,
Tom


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

Just a follow up to my last message:
I did a bit of research on the osm software stack yesterday evening and
I think implementing a genuine map bugtracker isn't more work than
adapting bugzilla. This is basically because the most important part of
the map bugtracker is the user interface. And that has to be rewritten
in both cases. The rest consists only of some database tables and a
RESTful controller to add, edit, and query bugs in the database and
return them in different formats (e.g. XML, JSON, RSS).

I recently started to work with Pylons which is claims to be very
similar to Rails. From this experience I expect the job of writing a
bugtracker-controller to be not very difficult. I will try to install
the rails-port on my computer at the weekend and have a look at it.
For the user interface side it might be possible to user the current
osb code as a starting point.

It would be nice if we could decide on one solution instead of
implementing two competing ones. So, it would be good to have a look at
the advantages and disadvantages of a bugzilla and a rails-port
solution and decide then which one fits best. Perhaps which should also
ask the software developers how they feel about moving from trac to
bugzilla. This seemed to be one of your main points for using bugzilla.

Christoph


Christoph Böhme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:

> Hi!
> 
> Steffen Vogel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> > Am Donnerstag, den 27.11.2008, 15:16 + schrieb Christoph Böhme:
> > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bugtracker_proposal
> > 
> > Hey great work!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> > I already modified the software-bug classifications, statuses of
> > Bugzilla, due to the needs of a MapBugTracker.
> > 
> > Do we have some perl programmers around here?
> 
> I am more into python ...
>  
> > I could need some help to adapt the slippy map scripts to Bugzilla.
> > It's not as hard as it might sound.
> > Bugzilla owns a XML-RPC backend which we can use...
> 
> This sounds quite handy and like a clean interface. However, Richard's
> comment about the complexity of writing a new bugtracker compared to
> adapting one for mapping still makes me think. At the moment it looks
> like as if we have to replace the current user interface of bugzilla
> with a completely new one that is suitable for mapping. The original
> user interface won't be of much use for a map bugtracker (I personally
> would always want to see where the bugs are). I am wondering how much
> code there is in a bugtracker which is independent from the user
> interface. Basically it boils down to the question if we write a new
> interface how many parts of bugzilla will we actually use? And will
> these parts fit well into a map bugtracker?
> 
> Bugzilla has an incredible amount of features but to me they seem to
> be made very much for software developer teams where only a relatively
> small number of people is actually fixing bugs. This is quite
> different to the osm community where several thousand people can
> possibly solve bugs. I thinks this makes many of bugzillas features
> unneccessary or even counterproductive if they were used in the osm
> community.
> 
> I really do not want to put you off from adapting bugzilla to
> openstreetmap but at the moment I cannot see what advantages we would
> get from using bugzilla compared to creating something specific for
> osm.
> 
>   Christoph
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Matt Amos]

can i plug http://www.redmine.org/ ?

its a very nice bit of software and we may be able to steal the
bug-tracking bit of it.

cheers,

matt

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Christoph Böhme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a follow up to my last message:
> I did a bit of research on the osm software stack yesterday evening and
> I think implementing a genuine map bugtracker isn't more work than
> adapting bugzilla. This is basically because the most important part of
> the map bugtracker is the user interface. And that has to be rewritten
> in both cases. The rest consists only of some database tables and a
> RESTful controller to add, edit, and query bugs in the database and
> return them in different formats (e.g. XML, JSON, RSS).
>
> I recently started to work with Pylons which is claims to be very
> similar to Rails. From this experience I expect the job of writing a
> bugtracker-controller to be not very difficult. I will try to install
> the rails-port on my computer at the weekend and have a look at it.
> For the user interface side it might be possible to user the current
> osb code as a starting point.
>
> It would be nice if we could decide on one solution instead of
> implementing two competing ones. So, it would be good to have a look at
> the advantages and disadvantages of a bugzilla and a rails-port
> solution and decide then which one fits best. Perhaps which should also
> ask the software developers how they feel about moving from trac to
> bugzilla. This seemed to be one of your main points for using bugzilla.
>
> Christoph
>
>
> Christoph Böhme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Steffen Vogel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>> > Am Donnerstag, den 27.11.2008, 15:16 + schrieb Christoph Böhme:
>> > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bugtracker_proposal
>> >
>> > Hey great work!
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> > I already modified the software-bug classifications, statuses of
>> > Bugzilla, due to the needs of a MapBugTracker.
>> >
>> > Do we have some perl programmers around here?
>>
>> I am more into python ...
>>
>> > I could need some help to adapt the slippy map scripts to Bugzilla.
>> > It's not as hard as it might sound.
>> > Bugzilla owns a XML-RPC backend which we can use...
>>
>> This sounds quite handy and like a clean interface. However, Richard's
>> comment about the complexity of writing a new bugtracker compared to
>> adapting one for mapping still makes me think. At the moment it looks
>> like as if we have to replace the current user interface of bugzilla
>> with a completely new one that is suitable for mapping. The original
>> user interface won't be of much use for a map bugtracker (I personally
>> would always want to see where the bugs are). I am wondering how much
>> code there is in a bugtracker which is independent from the user
>> interface. Basically it boils down to the question if we write a new
>> interface how many parts of bugzilla will we actually use? And will
>> these parts fit well into a map bugtracker?
>>
>> Bugzilla has an incredible amount of features but to me they seem to
>> be made very much for software developer teams where only a relatively
>> small number of people is actually fixing bugs. This is quite
>> different to the osm community where several thousand people can
>> possibly solve bugs. I thinks this makes many of bugzillas features
>> unneccessary or even counterproductive if they were used in the osm
>> community.
>>
>> I really do not want to put you off from adapting bugzilla to
>> openstreetmap but at the moment I cannot see what advantages we would
>> get from using bugzilla compared to creating something specific for
>> osm.
>>
>>   Christoph
>>
>> ___
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>
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[OSM-talk] Namefinder syntax

[David Earl]

Just to take us away again from the rather specific topic of place name 
searching to generalise a bit, I am toying with the idea of making the 
search less syntactic (albeit it is a simple somewhat naturalistic 
syntax at present) and more analytic (based on context) to try to 
determine exactly what it is you're looking for. The "Washington, D.C." 
example is a classic with the comma and periods that people will 
naturally type and I think I should be able to cope with.

The most common search is for just a place name, but people also put in 
full street addresses, or qualify by US state (as this is a common thing 
to do linguistically, "Portland, ME", but is well-nigh impossible to do 
from the data just in in OSM at present) and so on.

To this end can I ask for crowd source help again.

I'd like to gather together a collection of street address formats from 
around the world. Some countries put house numbers after the street 
name, some put postcodes before the town name and so on.

Could you add examples from your own countries to this page please:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder/Address_format

Thanks,
David

PS Thank you to everyone who has added to the translations page 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Translations
Italian is a notable absentee so far in European languages (Norwegian 
among others is also missing). But we're really short on non-latin 
languages: Russian, Chinese, Japanese, indo-chinese languages, Hebrew, 
Arabic, Hindi and so on.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Lars Kruse]

Hi,

> I made a comparison Google Maps - OSM for all capitals.
> http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/index.php

I am amazed. That's a great thing for getting a feeling for the worldwide
progress of OSM ...


> Some cities like Havanna have wrong coordinates. No idea why the 
> namefinder thinks that Havanna in the USA is more important, than 
> Havanna in Cuba.

In case, you plan to update incorrect coordinates, I noticed the following
misplacements:
1) Monaco -> Munich
2) N'Djamena -> Toulouse
3) San Jose (Costa Rica) - misplaced
4) Sarajevo -> slighly misplaced (the real location is a little bit to the east)
5) Victoria (Seychelles) -> Masvingo (Zimbabwe)
6) Washington is missing (the item is there, but the coordinates are missing)


thanks a lot for your excellent work!

Lars



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Patrick Kilian]

Hi,

> It would be nice if we could decide on one solution instead of
> implementing two competing ones. So, it would be good to have a look at
> the advantages and disadvantages of a bugzilla and a rails-port
> solution and decide then which one fits best. Perhaps which should also
> ask the software developers how they feel about moving from trac to
> bugzilla. This seemed to be one of your main points for using bugzilla.
I'm not a big developer, but I do try to improve the OSM software stack
(mostly [EMAIL PROTECTED] client and maplint) and I get to own all the 
osmarender bugs
in trac. From that perspective I have to say that I really dislike
bugzilla and that I was really glad when I found out that OSM uses trac
for its bugtracking. Unless we find a REALLY compelling reason to switch
I'd stay with trac.

I'd rather have a seperated bugzilla for tracking bugs in the data and a
trac for tracking bugs in the software. At that point I should probably
add that it would be a good thing if we could migrate all the user
databases to one single location and do authentication against that.


Patrick "Petschge" Kilian

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[OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Martin Norbäck]

Hi everybody,
I'm sure this has been discussed in length before, but I cannot seem
to find a good way to search the archives. Anyway, I will present my
thoughts here and you can respond or be quiet :)

I'm trying to fix at least two issues I have.

a) A way that is sort of one-way but allows buses and taxis in the
opposite direction.

Don't know how to tag them, currently I've just ignored buses and
taxis and tagged them oneway=yes.

b) 2+1 ways as we call them in Sweden, they are normal ways but have a
small fence in the middle and 2 lanes on one side and 1 lane on the
other side. They look like this:
http://www.vv.se/filer/Vägprojekt/3-Falt.jpg

Now, I want a good way to tag them, and using lanes, you can maybe say
lanes=3, or lanes=2+1, lanes=2,1, lanes=1+2, lanes=1,2, ... but how to
interpret that. I'd rather not resort to mapping these as two ways, as
they are in effect one way, just preventing head on collision. They
have crossings like a normal road, no ramps, acceleration fields, etc.

I would like a more general mechanism, but yet simple. I propose
something like this

forward:lanes=2 backward:lanes=1
(for the sake of the renderer you could also specify lanes=3)

The forward: and backward: prefix potentially applies to any key on a
way (because it needs direction. So, a) above would be oneway=yes (or
backward:access=no), backward:psv=yes, lanes=1.

There are a few directional tags already in osm:
oneway=yes would be equivalent to backward:access=no
cycleway=opposite_lane would be equivalent to backward:cycleway=lane
footway=both/left/right/none would be [forward:/backward:]footway=lane/yes etc

The advantage of having a simple tagging mechanism like this is that
the editors can easily prevent accidental reversal of a way, like josm
does right now with oneway. There are probably other uses for this
kind of scheme. And it doesn't really fit into a relation either.

Thanks,

Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Xav]

Hi,

With my experience in developing OSB, I would say that Christoph just 
resumed it quite right : the server side software is a piece of cake and 
should propose a simple API to insert/edit/delete and view the data 
(JSON, RSS, GPX).

Because everybody has its own idea of what should be specified in the 
data (bug status, email, classification, age of john's mother), why not 
to copy OSM : tags.

Think of it...

The server side already exists : it's basically OSM database without 
ways, with a guest account, and accepting long string values (the text 
users could add).

A lot of clients already exists : JOSM, Potlatch, Mapnik, trillions of 
scripts, etc.


Xav


Christoph Böhme a écrit :
> Just a follow up to my last message:
> I did a bit of research on the osm software stack yesterday evening and
> I think implementing a genuine map bugtracker isn't more work than
> adapting bugzilla. This is basically because the most important part of
> the map bugtracker is the user interface. And that has to be rewritten
> in both cases. The rest consists only of some database tables and a
> RESTful controller to add, edit, and query bugs in the database and
> return them in different formats (e.g. XML, JSON, RSS).
> 
> I recently started to work with Pylons which is claims to be very
> similar to Rails. From this experience I expect the job of writing a
> bugtracker-controller to be not very difficult. I will try to install
> the rails-port on my computer at the weekend and have a look at it.
> For the user interface side it might be possible to user the current
> osb code as a starting point.
> 
> It would be nice if we could decide on one solution instead of
> implementing two competing ones. So, it would be good to have a look at
> the advantages and disadvantages of a bugzilla and a rails-port
> solution and decide then which one fits best. Perhaps which should also
> ask the software developers how they feel about moving from trac to
> bugzilla. This seemed to be one of your main points for using bugzilla.
> 
> Christoph
> 
> 
> Christoph Böhme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> 
>> Hi!
>>
>> Steffen Vogel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>>> Am Donnerstag, den 27.11.2008, 15:16 + schrieb Christoph Böhme:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bugtracker_proposal
>>> Hey great work!
>> Thanks!
>>
>>> I already modified the software-bug classifications, statuses of
>>> Bugzilla, due to the needs of a MapBugTracker.
>>>
>>> Do we have some perl programmers around here?
>> I am more into python ...
>>  
>>> I could need some help to adapt the slippy map scripts to Bugzilla.
>>> It's not as hard as it might sound.
>>> Bugzilla owns a XML-RPC backend which we can use...
>> This sounds quite handy and like a clean interface. However, Richard's
>> comment about the complexity of writing a new bugtracker compared to
>> adapting one for mapping still makes me think. At the moment it looks
>> like as if we have to replace the current user interface of bugzilla
>> with a completely new one that is suitable for mapping. The original
>> user interface won't be of much use for a map bugtracker (I personally
>> would always want to see where the bugs are). I am wondering how much
>> code there is in a bugtracker which is independent from the user
>> interface. Basically it boils down to the question if we write a new
>> interface how many parts of bugzilla will we actually use? And will
>> these parts fit well into a map bugtracker?
>>
>> Bugzilla has an incredible amount of features but to me they seem to
>> be made very much for software developer teams where only a relatively
>> small number of people is actually fixing bugs. This is quite
>> different to the osm community where several thousand people can
>> possibly solve bugs. I thinks this makes many of bugzillas features
>> unneccessary or even counterproductive if they were used in the osm
>> community.
>>
>> I really do not want to put you off from adapting bugzilla to
>> openstreetmap but at the moment I cannot see what advantages we would
>> get from using bugzilla compared to creating something specific for
>> osm.
>>
>>  Christoph
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

There aren't that many cities with duplicate/multiple names. So I'd guess a
wiki page where they are listed and the community decides a stacking order
would be straightforward enough. Obviously doing it at lower levels this
approach wouldn't work. Info can then be tagged and used by namefinder?

Cheers

Andy

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Earl
>Sent: 28 November 2008 11:15 AM
>To: osm
>Subject: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places
>
>The discussion of finding Paris Ontario equated to Paris France just now
>reminds me to raise again the granularity of our place hierarchy.
>Notwithstanding value judgements people make about what is a "town", not
>just based on population, I still think we need some more levels in the
>city - town - village - hamlet hierarchy.
>
>I could use population in the namefinder (and ditto for caption size,
>priority etc in renderers) if that were given more widely, but the
>problem is that in the UK at least this information is subject to crown
>copyright (I assume any one figure is a fact, and therefore not
>copyright, but the collection is database copyright).
>
>I think we could do with a richer hierarchy something like this:
>metropolis> 500,000
>city  > 100,000
>large_town> 25,000? 40,000?
>town  > 10,000
>small_town / large_village > 2,500
>village   > 100
>hamlet< 100
>
>I'm sure we can argue about the names and numbers, but I don't think
>that's too important as people will always bring their own local
>knowledge to bear as well, not least based on what the place chooses to
>call itself. For example, Hay-on-Wye (Y-Gelli), Powys is most definitely
>a town even though it has fewer than 2,000 people, but Linton,
>Cambridgeshire is a "village" of nearly 5,000 souls.
>
>Another possibility is to make judgements about "importance" based on
>land area. I think this would be hard, though not completely impossible,
>to infer automatically from the data, but I wonder if a "radius" value
>on the place might help - "a circle approximately this big would enclose
>the place". Perhaps over-exaggerates coastal settlements and others
>which aren't blobs, so can only be a coarse judgement, but it might help
>me in deciding what "in" and "near" mean in the context of searches,
>especially for places which "punch above their weight".
>
>David
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Adam Schreiber]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 7:25 AM, David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> London - missing (found an other London)
>> Washington, D.C. - not found
>
> The comma is a bit of syntax for namefinder.
>
> Also state abbreviations (OK, DC's it's not a state exactly, but it has
> the same role here) are not stored anywhere in OSM data. I hope to
> improve this in due course, and as I said, is_in tags would help enormously.
>
> But in the end, the name of the place is "Washington", not "Washington,
> D.C." is it not? You don't ask for "Canberra, NSW" do you (sorry if it's
> not in NSW, just a guess)?

Here in the states, if you aren't physically close to Washington, DC,
you usually refer to it with the DC to disambiguate it from Washington
state.  Sometimes it's just referred to as Washington, the district or
DC depending on the context.

Most large cities in the US don't require a state name or abbreviation
after them in common discussion, but would probably be included if
searching for an address.  If a proximity estimation was made, it
could clear up if someone typed Greenville whether they wanted the on
in NC or SC.

Also, I think most Americans would probably never think to tack ",
USA" onto any address they searched for, much I would think a Brit
wouldn't tack on ", UK" naturally.

Cheers,

Adam

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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Friday 28 November 2008 04:44:54 pm David Earl wrote:
> city - town - village - hamlet hierarchy.

and, just to add to the confusion India has the following official 
classifications

Metro - Municipal corporation (metro cities)
Other Municipal corporations (cities)
Municipalities (towns) - here there are 3 grades
Town Panchayats (almost towns) again 3 grades
Village panchayat unions (big villages)
Villages panchayats (small villages) - some of them having as few as 3-4 
inhabitants!

-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

David Earl wrote:
> Another possibility is to make judgements about "importance" based on 
> land area.

A third possiblity would be, instead of defining the importance up-front 
from some tags or database information, to compute importance from how 
often something is sought or viewed. Google does it, so surely we can, too?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Bernhard Zwischenbrugger]

hi

and New Delhi is not shown at all

  

There were some bugs with spaces, commas,... (urlencode)
They are fixed now.

There are still some problems.

The capitals come from this list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals

The name of the city is given to namefinder.
The first item namefinder returns is displayed on the map.

At the moment there are problems with:

Paris - wrong Paris found
London - missing (found an other London)
Washington, D.C. - not found
Honiara - not found
Kuwait City - not found
Melekeok (Palau) - not found
Mexico City - not exact
N'Djamena (Chad) - found in france
Palikir (Mikronesia) - not found
Phnom Penh (Cambodia) - not found
Naypyidaw (Myanmar) - not found
South Tarawa (Kiribati) - not found
Sri Jayawardenepura( Sri Lanke) - not found
Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia) - not found
Yaren (Nauru) -not found

-

Captials in Europe are done very well (Vaduz is an exception)

In South America OSM is far behind Google

In Afrika the winner is OSM

In Asia it's mixed.

http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/

Bernhard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Friday 28 November 2008 03:48:22 pm Hakan Tandogan wrote:
> It shows how OSM is especially good in areas that are commercially not
> really interesting.

uniformly good everywhere there are mappers - so only in the 'important' areas 
we need to catch up - rest of the world we are way ahead

-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] rendering of areas with patterns

[Simone Cortesi]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Ulf Mehlig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My questions: does somebody have experience with preparing background
> patterns for "natural" area types, like woods, wetlands etc.? How do I
> prepare/tailor the bitmap tiles (margins, size, resolution, number of
> colours) used to render the pattern effectively? Can vector tiles be
> used? Am I right in assuming that a more "random" looking distribution
> cannot easily be obtained?

did you have a look at one of these tutorials?

http://www.cadtutor.net/tutorials/photoshop/seamless-tiles.php
http://www.photoshopforce.com/tutorials/seamless-repeating-tile-background/index.php
http://assaultblog.com/repeating-seamless-background-image-tutorial/

-S

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Re: [OSM-talk] London vandalised. [was Google Maps - OSM comparison]

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 10:29, David Earl wrote:
> London I'm not sure about - still checking.

It appears the reason the namefinder is not finding London is because 
... it was been deleted on Wednesday (it still shows up on Mapnik of 
course, but it isn't there in the data any more).

It was deleted by user FilipeOliveira at 2008-11-26T17:27:06 according 
to the daily diffs which I just grepped.

Is this the same guy who moved lots of London nodes to Portugal? Is this 
deliberate vandalism, a wild accident or a software bug?

Looking at the diff, it would appear that user "randomjunk" was trying 
to repair the damage done by FilipeOliveira  at the same time as he was 
creating more havoc. Please can we suspend this user from making any 
further changes at least until we can find out what the problem is.

David


PS for repair purposes, this diff lists the former London node as
 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Hakan Tandogan]

On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:00, Bernhard Zwischenbrugger wrote:
> Hi all
>
>
> I made a comparison Google Maps - OSM for all capitals.
> http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/index.php

This is really cool ;-)

It shows how OSM is especially good in areas that are commercially not
really interesting.

> Some cities like Havanna have wrong coordinates. No idea why the
> namefinder thinks that Havanna in the USA is more important, than Havanna
> in Cuba.

Care to share your source? Do you make a namefinder request on each page
or do you have a stored list of coordinates somewhere?


Regards,
Hakan

-- 
The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering...



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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 11:25, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On Friday 28 November 2008 04:44:54 pm David Earl wrote:
>> city - town - village - hamlet hierarchy.
> 
> and, just to add to the confusion India has the following official 
> classifications
> 
> Metro - Municipal corporation (metro cities)
> Other Municipal corporations (cities)
> Municipalities (towns) - here there are 3 grades
> Town Panchayats (almost towns) again 3 grades
> Village panchayat unions (big villages)
> Villages panchayats (small villages) - some of them having as few as 3-4 
> inhabitants!

That's true all over the world (US "cities" are just incorporated 
settlements and can have only a few dozen inhabitants, UK "cities" are, 
loosely, those with Cathedrals and more strictly those with medieval 
charters, and bears no relation to population).

It's the same discussion as we have had many times over, though, between 
"official" classifications for highways and their representation on the 
ground. In general, the consensus there has been that its what we see 
that counts not what the authorities say, and that official 
classifications have different tags.

In other words, "city" in OSM's vocabulary is not the same thing as a 
city in various local official interpretations. Perhaps using the word 
city (or trunk for highway etc) has created unintended value judgments, 
or the conflict has only become understood since they became widely used.

It's a bit like Parangay again: a settlement of a few hundred people is 
a "village" in OSM, and if that is what the Malay word means then it is 
also a "village". "village" in that context is not to be equated 
directly with the English word "village" in the sense of thatched 
cottages around a green with people playing cricket and refreshement 
provided by the pub alongside: that is only one example of an OSM 
village I think.

OSM place classifications are defined by size, though I think most of us 
use local knowledge as well, but rarely official classifications as 
these aren't helpful in expressing what we want to express. They may be 
helpfully tagged in a different way though, as we (I think) decided for 
highways where the official differed from the local.

David

David



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Re: [OSM-talk] London vandalised. [was Google Maps - OSM comparison]

[Dave Stubbs]

2008/11/28 David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 28/11/2008 10:29, David Earl wrote:
>> London I'm not sure about - still checking.
>
> It appears the reason the namefinder is not finding London is because
> ... it was been deleted on Wednesday (it still shows up on Mapnik of
> course, but it isn't there in the data any more).
>
> It was deleted by user FilipeOliveira at 2008-11-26T17:27:06 according
> to the daily diffs which I just grepped.
>
> Is this the same guy who moved lots of London nodes to Portugal? Is this
> deliberate vandalism, a wild accident or a software bug?


I'm under the impression it's reckless serial stupidity involving the
use of a random .osm file being altered and uploaded to the server.

There was a bunch of 600 nodes he moved to Portugal on Wednesday. This
was brought to my attention and I reverted them within 4-5 hours. I
also sent him a message basically telling him in no uncertain terms to
stop whatever it was he doing and seek help. As far as I know there
have been no subsequent incidents.

He only deleted a single node... the London one. My revertion script
was only set up to revert moved nodes, so it didn't catch it.

I've now restored the London node too.


>
> Looking at the diff, it would appear that user "randomjunk" was trying
> to repair the damage done by FilipeOliveira  at the same time as he was
> creating more havoc. Please can we suspend this user from making any
> further changes at least until we can find out what the problem is.
>

I think it was a few hours after.
I reprocessed the resulting daily diff, and can't find any more edits
that day, or the next.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] rendering of areas with patterns

[Ulf Mehlig]

Thanks, Simone! Good suggestion, I'll have a look at these tutorials ...

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 11:35 +0100, Simone Cortesi wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Ulf Mehlig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My questions: does somebody have experience with preparing background
> > patterns for "natural" area types, like woods, wetlands etc.? How do I
> > prepare/tailor the bitmap tiles (margins, size, resolution, number of
> > colours) used to render the pattern effectively? Can vector tiles be
> > used? Am I right in assuming that a more "random" looking distribution
> > cannot easily be obtained?
> 
> did you have a look at one of these tutorials?
> 
> http://www.cadtutor.net/tutorials/photoshop/seamless-tiles.php
> http://www.photoshopforce.com/tutorials/seamless-repeating-tile-background/index.php
> http://assaultblog.com/repeating-seamless-background-image-tutorial/
> 
> -S
-- 
 Ulf Mehlig<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
---


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[OSM-talk] 3D maps using gpx data

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

hi,
any pointers available on building a 3D layer to OSM using the 'ele' tag in 
gpx tracks? (I know little to nothing about the subject so forgive me if the 
question sounds idiotic)
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Andy Allan]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 10:29 AM, David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Paris is the same. The one in Ontario is also a city, and I have no
> mechanical means of distinguishing them.

There's always the capital=yes tag, if you wanted capital cities to
rank above other cities. I'm not sure that the population tags are
widely enough used yet to be a useful discriminator.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/11/28 Patrick Kilian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Hi,
>
> > It would be nice if we could decide on one solution instead of
> > implementing two competing ones. So, it would be good to have a look at
> > the advantages and disadvantages of a bugzilla and a rails-port
> > solution and decide then which one fits best. Perhaps which should also
> > ask the software developers how they feel about moving from trac to
> > bugzilla. This seemed to be one of your main points for using bugzilla.
> I'm not a big developer, but I do try to improve the OSM software stack
> (mostly [EMAIL PROTECTED] client and maplint) and I get to own all the 
> osmarender bugs
> in trac. From that perspective I have to say that I really dislike
> bugzilla and that I was really glad when I found out that OSM uses trac
> for its bugtracking. Unless we find a REALLY compelling reason to switch
> I'd stay with trac.
>
> I'd rather have a seperated bugzilla for tracking bugs in the data and a
> trac for tracking bugs in the software. At that point I should probably
> add that it would be a good thing if we could migrate all the user
> databases to one single location and do authentication against that.
>

Fedora has spent a lot of time implementing a central authentication system
through which all of their environment authenticate.

I think the level to which Fedora went is far beyond what we would need, but
setting up an LDAP directory to store authentication credentials would be
fairly straight forward.

I'd be willing to spend time to look at implementing some thing like this,
if their is a desire from the community.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

2008/11/28 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi all
>
> I made a comparison Google Maps - OSM for all capitals.
> http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/index.php

Note that this does not include Google Mapmaker so Google has better
data for some of these lying around. Reykjavík, Iceland for example
has no coverage on Google Maps but surpasses OSM in a lot of areas on
the mapmaker version, including road coverage.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Bernhard Zwischenbrugger]

Hi

When I did this capital comparison I searched for

o A relation that contains all capitals (didn't find)
o Then I wanted to use osmxapi - but that was down
o Then I tried to search for microformats for geolocations in Wikipedia 
but there are only a few cities with microformats
o namefinder in combination with a wiki page was by far the best 
solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals)


I'm really happy with the result we have now.

o We realized that somebody has stolen London
o Many capitals are not in the map jet - people can improve osm
o For the namefinder sorting the result can be a challenge

I made a new page with

o not found capitals
o update button

http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/status.php

If there is a better solution to find capitals and WGS84 points let me know.



Bernhard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Sven Rautenberg]

Martin Norbäck wrote:
> Hi everybody,
> I'm sure this has been discussed in length before, but I cannot seem
> to find a good way to search the archives. Anyway, I will present my
> thoughts here and you can respond or be quiet :)
> 
> I'm trying to fix at least two issues I have.
> 
> a) A way that is sort of one-way but allows buses and taxis in the
> opposite direction.
> 
> Don't know how to tag them, currently I've just ignored buses and
> taxis and tagged them oneway=yes.

To my knowledge, there is currently no official way to tag
direction-dependant (and no way to tag things on a specific side of the
way as well).

Every discussion in the past showed that there is no trivial way to do
it, and as it will heavily affect future tagging, any attempt to solve
this problem should be well thought and planned. At least I think that
is what has prevented any implementation of such tagging.

> b) 2+1 ways as we call them in Sweden, they are normal ways but have a
> small fence in the middle and 2 lanes on one side and 1 lane on the
> other side. They look like this:
> http://www.vv.se/filer/Vägprojekt/3-Falt.jpg

In Germany we have come to the agreement that if you have an object "one
street", but the two driving directions are separated in such a way that
you cannot simply (although maybe illegally) choose any lane with your
vehicle, because there is some kind of obstacle - like your fence - then
this street is tagged as two single ways, having oneway=yes set
appropriately, and maybe have a proper lanes-tag set as well. For you it
would be lanes=2 for the double way, and lanes=1 for the single way.

Regarding obstacles: Your fence is clearly an obstacle for almost any
vehicle, similar obstacles are any other form of vertical separation,
like walls. But even grass islands in the middle of the two ways qualify
as obstacle, even though they may be passed by bike or by foot, or even
by car. Motorways which only have a small patch of grass between the two
asphalt lanes should rather be tagged as two independent ways, with
appropriate tagging for the land between them, if you like.

> Now, I want a good way to tag them, and using lanes, you can maybe say
> lanes=3, or lanes=2+1, lanes=2,1, lanes=1+2, lanes=1,2, ... but how to
> interpret that. I'd rather not resort to mapping these as two ways, as
> they are in effect one way, just preventing head on collision. They
> have crossings like a normal road, no ramps, acceleration fields, etc.

Tagging it as two ways clearly state that you cannot turn around at
will, but have to drive on until you reach a crossing. Routing software
should be able to use this information.

Just have a look at German Autobahn: This almost always is only one wide
band of asphalt, but is tagged as two ways with oneway=yes, just because
this form of road has special traffic rules regarding turning
(disallowed! ;) ).


Regards,
Sven

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Rory McCann]

Hi,

This is great thing. It's great too see the places where OSM and power
of open source are miles ahead of the old guard.

On 28/11/08 15:17, Bernhard Zwischenbrugger wrote:
> o A relation that contains all capitals (didn't find)

Just a note to say that there shouldn't be a relation for capitals.
Relations are not like categories.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories

Rory



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Vikas Yadav]

Hi all,

Im surveying Gurgaon and New Delhi. I'd like to add that Google Maps is
drawing based on satellite images of the roads. Here, we are having massive
road shiftings, fly over consturctions and new roads or deletions. The
latest google earth images are still more than a year old. While, in just 2
months, I have to resruvey the same road due to either a metro railway
diversion in place or a common wealth diversion. Google maps is certainly
stable, and for at least 95% of the city roads. While OSM is covering under
10% of the city but accuracy and POI levels are many times better than
Google Maps. I'd also like to share that we also have commercial
mapmyindia.com which has local india maps which is much better in coverage
and updations than google. yahoo maps is the worst in terms of coverage.

Regards,
Vikas

2008/11/28 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Hi
>
> When I did this capital comparison I searched for
>
> o A relation that contains all capitals (didn't find)
> o Then I wanted to use osmxapi - but that was down
> o Then I tried to search for microformats for geolocations in Wikipedia but
> there are only a few cities with microformats
> o namefinder in combination with a wiki page was by far the best solution (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals)
>
> I'm really happy with the result we have now.
>
> o We realized that somebody has stolen London
> o Many capitals are not in the map jet - people can improve osm
> o For the namefinder sorting the result can be a challenge
>
> I made a new page with
>
> o not found capitals
> o update button
>
> http://lamp2.fhstp.ac.at/~lbz/beispiele/ws2008/capitals/status.php
>
> If there is a better solution to find capitals and WGS84 points let me
> know.
>
>
>
> Bernhard
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Namefinder syntax

[Jochen Topf]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:57:15PM +, David Earl wrote:
> I'd like to gather together a collection of street address formats from 
> around the world. Some countries put house numbers after the street 
> name, some put postcodes before the town name and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_(geography)

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Rory McCann]

On 27/11/08 18:18, Steven Le Roux wrote:
> Maybe, waiting on a solution to be done on the main slippy map, we
> could put a link on the front www.openstreetmap.org like this : "A bug
> ? please report it here"  and like to OSB. It's a quick solution...

Yeah I like it in theory but can we please not refer to it as a bug?
That's a way to technical term. How about "Report a problem with this
map" (once they are zoomed in enough), or something similar.

Rory



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Re: [OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Shaun McDonald]

Hi,

On 28 Nov 2008, at 13:16, Martin Norbäck wrote:


Hi everybody,
I'm sure this has been discussed in length before, but I cannot seem
to find a good way to search the archives. Anyway, I will present my
thoughts here and you can respond or be quiet :)

I'm trying to fix at least two issues I have.

a) A way that is sort of one-way but allows buses and taxis in the
opposite direction.

Don't know how to tag them, currently I've just ignored buses and
taxis and tagged them oneway=yes.


It might be easier to use 2 parallel ways for this. It wouldn't  
surprise me if in a years time every [major] road has a way for each  
direction that you can travel on it.





b) 2+1 ways as we call them in Sweden, they are normal ways but have a
small fence in the middle and 2 lanes on one side and 1 lane on the
other side. They look like this:
http://www.vv.se/filer/Vägprojekt/3-Falt.jpg


I would say that these should be done the same way as motorways, with  
2 parallel one way roads. The appropriate number of lanes can be added  
for each direction.




[...]

The advantage of having a simple tagging mechanism like this is that
the editors can easily prevent accidental reversal of a way, like josm
does right now with oneway. There are probably other uses for this
kind of scheme. And it doesn't really fit into a relation either.


JOSM will already allow the reversal of tags that are direction  
specific.


Shaun



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[OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Martin Norbäck]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Shaun McDonald
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 28 Nov 2008, at 13:16, Martin Norbäck wrote:
>
>> Hi everybody,
>> I'm sure this has been discussed in length before, but I cannot seem
>> to find a good way to search the archives. Anyway, I will present my
>> thoughts here and you can respond or be quiet :)
>>
>> I'm trying to fix at least two issues I have.
>>
>> a) A way that is sort of one-way but allows buses and taxis in the
>> opposite direction.
>>
>> Don't know how to tag them, currently I've just ignored buses and
>> taxis and tagged them oneway=yes.
>
> It might be easier to use 2 parallel ways for this. It wouldn't surprise me
> if in a years time every [major] road has a way for each direction that you
> can travel on it.

It might be easier but it sure is not correct. There is only one
street. One lane. It's just that it is oneway for cars, but not for
psvs.

>> b) 2+1 ways as we call them in Sweden, they are normal ways but have a
>> small fence in the middle and 2 lanes on one side and 1 lane on the
>> other side. They look like this:
>> http://www.vv.se/filer/Vägprojekt/3-Falt.jpg
>
> I would say that these should be done the same way as motorways, with 2
> parallel one way roads. The appropriate number of lanes can be added for
> each direction.

I understand that I can map them as two roads, but physically they are
one road. So I'm thinking, why map them as two roads, when they are one.
Motorways are different, they consist of two separated pieces of way.
They have ramps and acceleration fields.

This would be a case of mapping both for how the road actually looks
and for the renderer. It could render the way better if it knows that
it's a three lane road with two lanes in one direction and one in the
other with a fence in the middle.

>> The advantage of having a simple tagging mechanism like this is that
>> the editors can easily prevent accidental reversal of a way, like josm
>> does right now with oneway. There are probably other uses for this
>> kind of scheme. And it doesn't really fit into a relation either.
>
> JOSM will already allow the reversal of tags that are direction specific.

I think that was what I was saying above, yes. So it should be easy to
extend it to handle the forward:/backward: prefix.

/Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Mario Salvini]

for better describing of lane-situation we should use lane-relations. So 
we are even able to set position to each other very simple and hi detailed

--
 Mario

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/11/28 Rory McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> On 27/11/08 18:18, Steven Le Roux wrote:
> > Maybe, waiting on a solution to be done on the main slippy map, we
> > could put a link on the front www.openstreetmap.org like this : "A bug
> > ? please report it here"  and like to OSB. It's a quick solution...
>
> Yeah I like it in theory but can we please not refer to it as a bug?
> That's a way to technical term. How about "Report a problem with this
> map" (once they are zoomed in enough), or something similar.
>

May be it is my technical leaning but I would interpret "Report a problem
with this map" to be a technical problem.

How about "Report an inaccuracy with this map", or some thing along the
lines that makes it fairly clear that we are concerned about mapping
accuracy.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Erik Johansson]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Martin Norbäck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> a) A way that is sort of one-way but allows buses and taxis in the
> opposite direction.
>
> Don't know how to tag them, currently I've just ignored buses and
> taxis and tagged them oneway=yes.
>

I don' tag this but perhaps:
oneway:taxi=no
oneway:public_transport=no

it's also (at least in Sweden):
oneway:bicycle=no
oneway:foot=no

:-)

There is a category on the wiki for these kind of tags so if you
document these then please add them to tht category.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Way_Direction_Dependant

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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 16:23, Richard Weait wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 12:09 +, David Earl wrote:
>> Some kind of "importance" tag could do the job, but how we define it in 
>> a reasonably objective way that could be applied to more than just a few 
>> special cases is hard, unless we use things like population, local role 
>> and area, in which case why not tag these things directly.
> 
> We have place = city / town / village / hamlet etc, for relative context
> and local context.  
> 
> We have population = numeric as well.  Can we not use population as a
> hint for when and where to rank London Ontario and London England?  Or
> Paris Ontario and Paris France?  
> 
> Population also gives us a nice objective data point that can often be
> found on the sign at the edge of town.  It's been in map features for a
> while.  We just need to use it.  

I thought I addressed that one earlier.

Yes, indeed, that is my first preference.

However there is a problem about adding population to places in the UK 
in particular and probably other countries as well, that is the data is 
crown copyright (no single piece is because it is a fact, but the 
collection of population data as a whole has database copyright attached 
to it). (Postcodes are the same in the UK, and it comes back to the 
fundamental reason we're doing it in the first place).

There is the secondary problem that it is not widely used even where 
there is a PD source for the data.

I imagine the data on wikipedia for populations in the UK is derived 
from UK census data and is therefore tainted.

Land area (for which I suggested a somewhat easier to use equivalent in 
"radius") is somewhat easier to apply from the data we are already 
collecting - it's something you can readily see in satellite pictures 
and mapping, and I imagine it would give very similar ranking to 
population - indeed I bet you could get a pretty good estimate of 
population from a simply area polygon drawn around a place.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Openstreetmap iPhone app

[graham]

John McKerrell wrote:
> 
> 
> I should've mentioned the other day that my iFreeThePostcode app is now 
> live on the app store, you can see it here (opens in 
> iTunes) http://icanhaz.com/freepost... 
> 
> It's had quite a few downloads so far but I've yet to hear from Dominic 
> Hargreaves whether there's also been a worthwhile increase in submissions.

What's the current state of iphone apps? Having released it through the 
app store, can you also release the source or is there still an NDA that 
stops you? And is it possible to put it in cydia as well as the app 
store? (I'd like to gradually stop using the app store and only use free 
apps via cydia, though that's not too practical yet)

Graham

> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Openstreetmap iPhone app

[John McKerrell]

On 28 Nov 2008, at 17:21, graham wrote:

> John McKerrell wrote:
>>
>>
>> I should've mentioned the other day that my iFreeThePostcode app is  
>> now
>> live on the app store, you can see it here (opens in
>> iTunes) http://icanhaz.com/freepost... > >
>>
>> It's had quite a few downloads so far but I've yet to hear from  
>> Dominic
>> Hargreaves whether there's also been a worthwhile increase in  
>> submissions.
>
> What's the current state of iphone apps? Having released it through  
> the
> app store, can you also release the source or is there still an NDA  
> that
> stops you? And is it possible to put it in cydia as well as the app
> store? (I'd like to gradually stop using the app store and only use  
> free
> apps via cydia, though that's not too practical yet)

I believe that I'm able to release the source, and I will be doing so  
just as soon as I get around to writing a blog post announcing it :-)

I haven't really had much to do with the jailbreak stuff so far,  
haven't found a need, I can see that if I tried releasing something  
through it that they might get sniffy about my official app store  
account, but if I release as open source then there should be nothing  
stopping someone else from doing it really.

John

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[OSM-talk] Trying to find a solution for country specific and defaults values

[sylvain letuffe]

Hi,

We all know osm cover the world, we all know that defaults values are 
different from country to country and some of us know this is a monster pain 
to make a world wide routing program, a world speed alert tool or any world 
wide tool that need to know : "what do we have here".

The tag set, is currently constructed as being a "as close as possible" as the 
common denominator (or maybe close to the UK case )

Some pages 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Country_specific_default_values
try to list those defaults "just in case"

Some pages  (mine)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Any_moving_thing_grouping_system
says we shouldn't assume there are defaults

Once uppon a time I thought we should tag EVERY thing
( highway=motorway foot=no horse=no mopped=no oneway=yes 
maxspeed=120 . )

Solutions :
-
1) The main problem of what we do, is that it put such a burden on developper 
side that they will just ignore other countries than what they are interested 
in. So we just have hope that someone will help them.

2) We could ask mappers to tag every thing, but that will put such a burden to 
editors that they will simply don't.

3) we could ask editors developper to automatically add the appropriate tags 
given that the mapper is mapping only one country and that he had given it in 
a input box.

4) we could feed the missing database tags with all possible tags based on the 
polygone country they are in, filled with default values

2 has no sense, it will never been done, 3 and 4 will create such an enormous 
database that editors interface will become useless. and creating an false 
idea that something has been tagged.

1 is what we do (I think), but it makes it even harder for people with "few" 
time to create a good tool that is valid worldwide, developpers have to 
constantly watch at wiki, some intersecting tags will not be covered,...

I have a plan for option 5) wich I don't know if it is better.

Something between the perfectly valid 2 and the easy 1 :

- create a tool that will post-process osm files to include any "relevant" 
tags so if a developper just respect the global hierarchy, his tool will work 
on the whole world.

I strongly suspect that developpers all do that a bit in their software 
(mkgmap, routing, rendering, ... ) so losing extra time, and finishing in not 
perfect worldwide tools.

Quick examples :
- add motocar=no to all german tracks
- add oneway:foot=no to all oneway=yes
- add mopped=yes to all $country's motorway
- add bicylce=no to all UK pedestrians
- add maxspeed=90 km/h to all french primary/secondary
etc.

Other idea, not related to country :
- add access=no to all disused=yes
well, add implied defaults to make them explicit. And over all for new coming 
extra specific tags where the routing programm's developper is bored of 
continuously adding modifications

I'am so sorry if such a tool already exists, I haven't found it


-- 
Sylvain Letuffe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
qui suis-je : http://slyserv.dyndns.org



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[ビカス ヤダワ (v ikas yadav)]

Hi all,

Im surveying Gurgaon and New Delhi. I'd like to add that Google Maps is
drawing based on satellite images of the roads. Here, we are having massive
road shiftings, fly over consturctions and new roads or deletions. The
latest google earth images are still more than a year old. While, in just 2
months, I have to resruvey the same road due to either a metro railway
diversion in place or a common wealth diversion. Google maps is certainly
stable, and for at least 95% of the city roads. While OSM is covering under
10% of the city but accuracy and POI levels are many times better than
Google Maps. I'd also like to share that we also have commercial
mapmyindia.com which has local india maps which is much better in coverage
and updations than google. yahoo maps is the worst in terms of coverage.

Regards,
Vikas

2008/11/28 Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> On Friday 28 November 2008 03:06:25 pm 80n wrote:
> > Excellent. This really brings home how well OSM is progressing globally.
> >
> > BTW can you fix London, UK?  It's displaying East London, South Africa.
>
> and New Delhi is not shown at all
>
> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
> Associate
> NRC-FOSS
> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Dave Stubbs]

2008/11/28 Martin Norbäck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi everybody,
> I'm sure this has been discussed in length before, but I cannot seem
> to find a good way to search the archives. Anyway, I will present my
> thoughts here and you can respond or be quiet :)
>
> I'm trying to fix at least two issues I have.
>
> a) A way that is sort of one-way but allows buses and taxis in the
> opposite direction.
>
> Don't know how to tag them, currently I've just ignored buses and
> taxis and tagged them oneway=yes.


for the cycling equivalent we have cycleway=opposite_lane.

I've been arbitrarily doing psv=opposite_lane for some bus lanes in
London, which may or may not be described as a complete bastardisation
of the access tag... your solution below sounds more sensible to me.


>
> b) 2+1 ways as we call them in Sweden, they are normal ways but have a
> small fence in the middle and 2 lanes on one side and 1 lane on the
> other side. They look like this:
> http://www.vv.se/filer/Vägprojekt/3-Falt.jpg
>
> Now, I want a good way to tag them, and using lanes, you can maybe say
> lanes=3, or lanes=2+1, lanes=2,1, lanes=1+2, lanes=1,2, ... but how to
> interpret that. I'd rather not resort to mapping these as two ways, as
> they are in effect one way, just preventing head on collision. They
> have crossings like a normal road, no ramps, acceleration fields, etc.
>
> I would like a more general mechanism, but yet simple. I propose
> something like this
>
> forward:lanes=2 backward:lanes=1
> (for the sake of the renderer you could also specify lanes=3)

Seems reasonable except for the divider -- I'd do that road as two
separate ways.
We have some roads in the UK which gain a lane and look a bit like
that, but with no direction divider (usually positioned to allow easy
over taking of lorries on hills). Your tagging solution might work for
these quite well.

Dave
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Re: [OSM-talk] osm relief file for France

[Frédéric Bonifas]

Ok thanks Christoph, so I wait for you to put the tiles online.

Frédéric

2008/11/28 Christoph Eckert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi Frédéric,
>
>> I am regularly generating a garmin map for France (
>> http://fredericbonifas.free.fr/osm/garmin.html ).
>> I would like to build one with relief. I works well for little areas
>> but I am experiencing some problems to generate the relief map for the
>> whole France.
>> Could someone who successfully produce big relief maps generate a .img
>> file, containing only the reliefs, with this polygon :
>> http://download.cloudmade.com/europe/france/france.poly ?
>
> recently I processed the whole world as 1° tiles. You could take those,
> convert it to img files using mkgmap, put them in a gmapsupp.img and combine
> your map with the contour lines using sendmap.
>
> I still have not enough web space to upload the tiles. There's something going
> on, but I have no info if it will work as expected as of yet.
>
> Best regards,
>
> ce
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[Richard Bullock]

>
>>> b) 2+1 ways as we call them in Sweden, they are normal ways but have a
>>> small fence in the middle and 2 lanes on one side and 1 lane on the
>>> other side. They look like this:
>>> http://www.vv.se/filer/V?gprojekt/3-Falt.jpg
>>
>> I would say that these should be done the same way as motorways, with 2
>> parallel one way roads. The appropriate number of lanes can be added for
>> each direction.
>
> I understand that I can map them as two roads, but physically they are
> one road. So I'm thinking, why map them as two roads, when they are one.
> Motorways are different, they consist of two separated pieces of way.
> They have ramps and acceleration fields.
>

Where there is a physical barrier, splitting a road in two, tag as two 
separate ways, with a oneway tag. Where a physical barrier splits a road in 
two, this is a dual carriageway, regardless of how many lanes each 
carriageway has.

It doesn't matter if a dual carriageway has at-grade junctions (i.e. just 
gaps in the barrier or side-turnings), or motorway-style slip-roads and 
bridges - they are still both dual carriageways and must be tagged with two 
ways.





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[OSM-talk] (no subject)

[Aun Johnsen]

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:58:21 +0100
>On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Martin Norb?ck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> a) A way that is sort of one-way but allows buses and taxis in the
>> opposite direction.
>>
>> Don't know how to tag them, currently I've just ignored buses and
>> taxis and tagged them oneway=yes.
>>
>
>I don' tag this but perhaps:
>oneway:taxi=no
>oneway:public_transport=no
>
>it's also (at least in Sweden):
>oneway:bicycle=no
>oneway:foot=no
>
>:-)
>
>There is a category on the wiki for these kind of tags so if you
>document these then please add them to tht category.
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Way_Direction_Dependant

If this breaks your threading, I'm sorry, but I read this list digested.

This should be solved either by restriction tag or by relations. A
relation preventing cars from entering the way only buses can drive is
probably the best way.

-- 
Brgds
Aun Johnsen
(Over Web Mail)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Validator tags

[Ed Loach]

Picking up on this one comment:

 

> I remember when osmarender used to render all street names in

> the same

> font size on all streets even if the streets where too short

> for the

> name to fit. As a result the osmarender:renderName=no tag was

> often

> added to small streets to make the render look nicer. Then

> osmarender

> stopped adding names to short streets and could use a smaller

> font

> size on smaller streets. 

 

Is there somewhere I can request that similar is done for ref where
it won't fit next to the way? The A120 into Harwich is broken up by
quite a few closely spaced roundabouts and bridges.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.8314
 &lon=1.1588&zoom=12&layers=B00FTF

 

Having said that it does look like it tries to use different font
sizes, and things do look OK at zoom levels 16 and 17. So perhaps it
is just at zoom levels 12 to 15 that issues might arise?

 

Ed

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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[David Earl]

On 28/11/2008 18:02, Richard Weait wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 17:16 +, David Earl wrote:
>> On 28/11/2008 16:23, Richard Weait 
>>> Population also gives us a nice objective data point that can often be
>>> found on the sign at the edge of town.  It's been in map features for a
>>> while.  We just need to use it.  
>> I thought I addressed that one earlier.
>>
>> Yes, indeed, that is my first preference.
>>
>> However there is a problem about adding population to places in the UK 
>> in particular and probably other countries as well, that is the data is 
>> crown copyright (no single piece is because it is a fact, but the 
>> collection of population data as a whole has database copyright attached 
>> to it). 
> 
> Yes, I saw that first time around.  Which is why I suggested that we
> collect it from signs and other unencumbered sources.  Are you telling
> me that surveying population from posted signs (as a collection) would
> infringe the crown copyright?  

Signs giving population are very rare in the UK, it's not like the US 
cowboy movies where the baddy goes out to the sign at the city limits 
and crosses out "population: 504" and writes in 503.

There just isn't such information to be found routinely on the ground. I 
know it's common in the US, but I can't recall seeing it anywhere else 
I've been in Europe.

I don't know what other "unencumbered" information there would be. I 
don't think there is anyone else here who counts population other than 
the census people, though I imagine local authorities have a good 
estimate in their tax records.

But as I said, I think area will do just as well from our point of view 
as well as or instead of population.

> I'm boggled.  There is case law that supports this?  

It's the same database copyright that we are considering basing osm's 
new license on I believe.

I originally used a district council document to put populations on all 
the villages in my district. I checked the document and I couldn't see 
any copyright statement in it at all. But their website did have, and so 
I researched a bit more and found that the state ("the crown") does 
indeed explicitly assert copyright over all census material (which, of 
course, we taxpayers have spent millions of pounds collecting). It does 
permit (by explicit free license which you have to ask for) widespread 
end use of the data, but explicitly forbids derivations. (I paraphrase a 
little). I ended up removing it all again because it was quite clear 
that my use was infringing.

It's just the same as OS data: in other countries they take an 
enlightened view. In this country they make you pay through the nose for 
what you've already paid for in taxes and actively prevent interesting 
uses of public data in doing so. That's why we are here doing what we're 
doing.

I have no idea whether this has been supported in court, but database 
rights were introduced to cover exactly such cases.

> So perhaps population is impractical in UK because of this.  Is it worth
> adopting place + population where the data is available?  

Possibly, though as I said there's not a whole lot out there anyway. I 
think I need to develop a metric from combined sources that I can use.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Directional tagging

[David Earl]

>> I understand that I can map them as two roads, but physically they are
>> one road. So I'm thinking, why map them as two roads, when they are one.
>> Motorways are different, they consist of two separated pieces of way.
>> They have ramps and acceleration fields.

Deja vu. This thread is an almost identical repeat of the thread 
"[OSM-talk] Contraflow bus lane" from October 
(http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-October/thread.html)

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

"Douglas Furlong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> 2008/11/28 Rory McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > On 27/11/08 18:18, Steven Le Roux wrote:
> > Yeah I like it in theory but can we please not refer to it as a bug?
> > That's a way to technical term. How about "Report a problem with
> > this map" (once they are zoomed in enough), or something similar.
> 
> May be it is my technical leaning but I would interpret "Report a
> problem with this map" to be a technical problem.
> 
> How about "Report an inaccuracy with this map", or some thing along
> the lines that makes it fairly clear that we are concerned about
> mapping accuracy.

I add "Something wrong on this map? -- Report it!" and the short and
simple "Report error" to the pool of sentences to choose from.

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

"Matt Amos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> can i plug http://www.redmine.org/ ?
> 
> its a very nice bit of software and we may be able to steal the
> bug-tracking bit of it.

It looks indeed very neat and since it is written on Rails it might be
easier to include in osm than another bugtracker. But the server side
part of the map bugtracker is probably the smallest part and the client
side has to be rewritten anyway. So, it might be easier to write some
server side code that really works for a map bugtracker instead of
trying to fix something.

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

"Douglas Furlong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> I think the level to which Fedora went is far beyond what we would
> need, but setting up an LDAP directory to store authentication
> credentials would be fairly straight forward.
> 
> I'd be willing to spend time to look at implementing some thing like
> this, if their is a desire from the community.

+1

Christoph 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Hierarchy of places

[Eric Marsden]

> "de" == David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  de> I don't know what other "unencumbered" information there would be. I 
  de> don't think there is anyone else here who counts population other than 
  de> the census people, though I imagine local authorities have a good 
  de> estimate in their tax records.
  de> 
  de> But as I said, I think area will do just as well from our point of view 
  de> as well as or instead of population.

  Some people seem to have been successful in estimating population
  density from Landsat imagery:

 http://isu.indstate.edu/qweng/Aug%2005%20PERS.pdf

  The ETL+ Landsat data that this uses doesn't seem to be freely
  available, though. Would it be possible to do something similar with
  the STRM data (urban areas having higher reflectance)?

-- 
Eric Marsden


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

Hi,

Xav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> With my experience in developing OSB, I would say that Christoph just 
> resumed it quite right : the server side software is a piece of cake
> and should propose a simple API to insert/edit/delete and view the
> data (JSON, RSS, GPX).

That sounds good. I will see at the weekend if it really is a piece of
cake. Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side code from
osb for a web-based client-side interface?

> Because everybody has its own idea of what should be specified in the 
> data (bug status, email, classification, age of john's mother), why
> not to copy OSM : tags.
>
> Think of it...

I thought about using a general tag scheme too, but I think its not a
good solution for a bugtracker. Bug reports are mostly free-form text
already and contain only structured information to remind people to
supply certain bits of information and to handle processing of the bug
reports. So, I do not think bug reporters will ever feel the desire
add tags to their bug reports. In fact, it would probably confuse most
people. Developers of user interfaces for the bug tracker might however
want to have more structured information. But this is probably only a
small group of people who can decide which information a bug report
should contain. Especially it would not help anyone if bug reports
contain different information depending which user interface was used
to add them to the database. Just imagine the situation where a user
adds a bug through the web interface and a mapper requests the bugs with
JOSM. Both pieces of software need to use the same model of
information in the report and the same concept of how to process the
bug report.
Additionally, I think defining a bug report format is not like defining
a database structure to describe the whole world but more like finding
one for describing a residential street. Implementing a general tag
scheme just postpones the decision of what to put in a bug report in my
opinion.

> The server side already exists : it's basically OSM database without 
> ways, with a guest account, and accepting long string values (the
> text users could add).

That is really attractive. The only problems I can see here (apart from
that we still should try to define a  bug report format) are that
annotations to a bug report like comments, images and attachments
cannot be stored in the osm database (as far as I know). Another
question is how the introduction of changesets in the api 0.6 affects
very small edits. Creating a changeset for every bug which is added to
the database might turn out to be very inefficient memorywise.

> A lot of clients already exists : JOSM, Potlatch, Mapnik, trillions
> of scripts, etc.

But they still need interfaces to handle the bug reports in a user
friendly way.

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Christoph Böhme wrote:
> That sounds good. I will see at the weekend if it really is a piece of
> cake. Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side code from
> osb for a web-based client-side interface?

Before you get all cranked up writing something new, be sure to check 
out the "notes API" branch in SVN, where something OSB-like has been 
attempted in rails already. I don't know by whom and what the status is 
but I'm sure you will find out.

(I believe the notes API may suffer - my interpretation - from the idea 
of putting comments directly into the OSM database rather than into a 
separate data set where they - my opinion - belong but it's worth 
checking anyway.)

> Especially it would not help anyone if bug reports
> contain different information depending which user interface was used
> to add them to the database. Just imagine the situation where a user
> adds a bug through the web interface and a mapper requests the bugs with
> JOSM. Both pieces of software need to use the same model of
> information in the report and the same concept of how to process the
> bug report.

This is very short-sighted - coming from someone who has worked with 
OSM! Who are you to know in advance what cool ideas the writers of bug 
tracking software might have? Just because you cannot think of anything 
beyond "severity", "class" and "comment" doesn't mean nobody else can. 
Let the writers of software decide, do not constrain them by your 
limited imagination.

If someone comes up with a cool new tag the makes reporting and handling 
bugs much easier, then let him do that and write his own cool interface 
for it. If it works well then others will copy the idea. By postulating 
that everyone will have to work with the smallest common denominator, 
you are killing off creativity.

It's ok to have a few suggested standard attributes like severity and so 
on, but never close the door to enhancements.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Matt Amos]

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 12:45 AM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (I believe the notes API may suffer - my interpretation - from the idea
> of putting comments directly into the OSM database rather than into a
> separate data set where they - my opinion - belong but it's worth
> checking anyway.)

i totally agree - OSB has managed just fine as a separate database.

> It's ok to have a few suggested standard attributes like severity and so
> on, but never close the door to enhancements.

and we'd lose out on all the fun of documenting / defining the tags on
the wiki :-P

cheers,

matt

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