Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Don't forget we have _expressly_ asked Google, in the form of Ed
> Parsons at SOTM, and he has _expressly_ said, sorry, no, we don't have those
> rights to give away.

Of course Russ's argument is that you do not have to be given those 
rights, by Ed Parsons or his upstream providers, and so the fact that 
Google doesn't have those rights assigned by contract (or is unwilling 
to assign them to you by contract) is irrelevant.

> Wikipedia also recommends
> you do a web search for the city name together with "latitude" and
> "longitude" so, hey, why stop at Google? You can infringe on lots of other
> people's content, too!

Which brings me to an interesting question. We currently have a 
long-running theft investigation in Germany where the suspects are twin 
brothers. The fact that it is impossible to accuse one or the other 
seems to be a major complication for lawyers (it seems you cannot have a 
legal case against "one of you two"). Now I wonder what happens if:

* If I google for the coordinates of something
* find the same coordinates on 5 web pages
* use them
* it later turns out all these 5 pages have copied from google and the 
coordinates are an easter egg

Who, then, has a legal case against me? I haven't lifted anything off 
Google, so it cannot be them; and the other 5 will have a hard time to 
prove I took something from them? And is something still illegal if it 
is impossible to bring a case against it?

> But evidently I'm being an armchair lawyer:

Welcome to the club.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Languages

[Stephan Plepelits]

On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 08:45:26PM +0100, Emilie Laffray wrote:
> I was actually thinking about anything that carries a name.
> In the example you have given me, you have partially answer the question
> that I was asking: name is expressed in the local language. If you want
> to add translation, you need to append :isolanguage to the named field.
> > What might be interesting and worth a discussion: A tag to describe the
> > default language of this object, e.g. "language=en". This could als be
> > several tags, e.g.
> > name=België - Belgique - Belgien
> > name:nl=België
> > name:fr=Belgique
> > name:da=Belgien
> > (and some more)
> > language=nl;fr;da<- this would be new
> > (I hope I got the languages right, sorry if not)
> >
> > Comments?
> >   
> I like the idea of the language element. I would like to add an extra
> precision in this case. I think the order of language should be by
> importance.
Great to have a supporter :) I think the people who enter the name and the
language-tag to the database should decide, because they know the political
situation. As a general rule the importance of languages sounds reasonable
to me.

I even had a second idea. When you look at Google Maps you see that there's
an English translation (for places which have an English translation) in a
second row. This is something that I also applied to the
OpenStreetBrowser[1]. I thought it might be interesting to apply a tag
"second_languages" to an element (or to an administrative boundary), so
that the application can decide which languages should be put in the second
row. And if this languages is already part of the "main-name" it will be
ignored. This could even be inherited from the next-higher administrative
boundary.

Examples:
name=Sibiu
name:de=Hermannstadt
language=ro
second_languages=en;de (in the administrative boundary)
-> FIRST: Sibiu SECOND: Hermannstadt

name=België - Belgique - Belgien
name:nl=België
name:fr=Belgique
name:da=Belgien
name:en=Belgium
(and some more)
language=nl;fr;da<- this would be new
second_languages=en;da (in the administrative boundary)
-> FIRST: België - Belgique - Belgien SECOND: Belgium
(da is already part of the "main" name, so it will not be put in second row)

Just a few thoughts ...

> Things like different alphabet might be also interesting to look at even
> if it is likely that it can be subsumed under translation.
Yes. I was thinking if it wouldn't be better to not use the english
translation as a second row, but rather the "int_name"? or the name
rewritten in latin letters? Could make a difference ... Ideas?

[1] http://www.openstreetbrowser.org

greetings,
Stephan
-- 
Seid unbequem, seid Sand, nicht Öl im Getriebe der Welt! - Günther Eich
,-.
| Stephan Plepelits,  |
| Technische Universität Wien   -Studium Informatik & Raumplanung |
| > openstreetbrowser.org > couchsurfing.com > tubasis.at > bl.mud.at |
| sk...@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at   -   My Blog: http://plepe.at |
`-'

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Jochen Topf]

On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 11:59:51PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
> El Martes, 5 de Mayo de 2009, Russ Nelson escribió:
> > On May 5, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > > We have the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine instead.
> >
> > Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on
> > a Google Map?  Google?  Or the Wikipedia editor [...] OMG, I'm practically 
> > DRIPPING with sweat off my brow just thinking about it.
> 
> OK, but *you* tell that to the Google Lawyer Legion(tm)(beta).

I don't think we have to worry about that. Google hasn't sued Wikipedia
yet. And Wikipedia has been distributing all those points in bulk for
years.

Google itself has taken the Wikipedia points and put the into a Google
Earth layer. So they can't argue that they didn't know.

Now that Wikipedia is switching to CC-BY-SA I don't see any legal reason
why we can't exchange data.

Come on, people, don't be afraid all the time of something that
theoretically maybe could eventually happen. We should not in
anticipatory obedience cede the ground to everybody who claims any kind
of right just because he thinks he should have it. If there is a
reasonable claim, we have to act, of course, but not because of some
theoretical possibility where the alleged copyright holder didn't even
say anything.

If you really want to be whiter than white I suggest you scroll around
the existing OSM maps and start emailing all those people doing large
scale imports and not having any documentation about where that data was
coming from. Ask them for a full pedigree of this data back to the guy
doing the surveying. Written, signed and in triplicate.

This is no super-white project and it can't be. Its a community project
and there is not much control about what people are doing. If and only
if there is a problem, we have to handle it (and do so quickly), but not
before. Wikipedia has been having those issues for years and has been
handling them well. Sure there are letters from laywers etc. all the
time and they look at those cases, document them, maybe delete data or
lock access temporarily. That works. Judges see the effort they put in
to protect copyright where there is some copyright to protect. I suggest
we follow the same strategy instead of announcing that we are "white"
where we aren't and coming up with insurmountable hurdles in other
cases.

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Jochen Topf]

On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 09:14:30PM +0200, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> Some notes:
> There's already the wikipedia=NAME tag (wikipedia=LA:NAME for
> non-english wikipedias, where LA=en,de...) in use in some places, so
> I'd recommend using that.

Shouldn't that be

wikipedia:LA=NAME

?

Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Apollinaris Schoell]

> available to OSM editors.  One way to do that is to have a second API
> which consists of a cached copy of everything that map renderers might
> use, all merged into one read-only OSM-compatible api.  So when
> somebody asks to edit an area, the editor also shows them the read-
> only elements, so they know not to enter anything already available to
> map users.

could be very useful for other data too. one idea is to make osm  
itself or certain object a readonly layer and provide a  editor for  
newbies where they can not destroy things easily. advanced mode will  
allow full edits.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Apollinaris Schoell]

this will create many duplicates. You will need to do some checking  
before a poi is added. so many mass imports are done cleanup is a lot  
of work.
checking should be done against points, ways, polygons. in osm tags  
are somtimes on building polugon or on a point. If we have both the  
map is too cluttered with trahs
better import less but have better quality.





On 5 May 2009, at 11:00 , Russ Nelson wrote:

> Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a
> coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and
> name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?  If I do this
> under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the
> import if somebody has a better idea later.
>
> --
> Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
> r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
> http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Russ Nelson wrote:
> What work or creativity did Google do towards the existence of 
> that particular point?

Google's imagery suppliers collected and rectified the imagery. "For over a
hundred years, English courts have held that a significant expenditure of
labour is sufficient" - that's, er, Wikipedia saying that. If they'd
rectified them differently, your 14 digits would be different.

Now I'm not saying that this is necessarily a view I wholly subscribe to (if
you could actually be bothered to look through the wiki and the 8zn prior
mailing list discussions, you'd see I've put stuff on there with a more
liberal view of this). Clearly some people don't - Yahoo, for example.

But Ivan has it right. Google's imagery suppliers could well take that view
if they wanted to, and OSM's attitude has always been "we are whiter than
white". Don't forget we have _expressly_ asked Google, in the form of Ed
Parsons at SOTM, and he has _expressly_ said, sorry, no, we don't have those
rights to give away.

Yet... we're forgetting something:

> To think that Google has ANY copyright ownership of points chosen 
> off their aerial photographs simply boggles the mind.

Er, how come we're suddenly just talking about aerial imagery?

The Wikipedia page I quoted says "Google Maps". It actually recommends you
use their API and their geocoder, too: that looks to be against their ToS to
me, though I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree.

It even provides a handy tool for you to do it.
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/universimmedia/geo/loc.htm . That _directly_
extracts from their geocoder. Nothing about clicking on imagery there; I
type in my address and it gives me a lat and long. Wikipedia also recommends
you do a web search for the city name together with "latitude" and
"longitude" so, hey, why stop at Google? You can infringe on lots of other
people's content, too!

With all that in mind, I reckon any court would conclude that it is very
likely there has been large-scale extraction of features. 

But evidently I'm being an armchair lawyer:

> But nobody wants to talk about the hard stuff.  Everybody just 
> wants to be an armchair lawyer rather than exercize their brain. 

Oh, don't be so patronising. And you're not? Please.

Actually, I think an OSMer said it best on Twitter.

"Openstreetmap is about gathering map data and sharing it. Some people seem
desperate to import data from anywhere. GATHER IT YOURSELF."

And with that, I shall stop posting the same old stuff that's been said so
many times before, and go and gather some data. I recommend it. :)

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Rob Reid]

Russ Nelson wrote the following on 06/05/2009 14:29:
> On May 5, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>   
>> Russ Nelson wrote:
>> 
>>> Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point
>>> on  a Google Map?  Google?  Or the Wikipedia editor[...]?
>>>   
>> Sweat-of-the-brow doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that "A did  
>> some work,
>> but B did more, so B owns the copyright". _Both_ A and B own some  
>> copyright.
>> 
>
> What work or creativity did Google do towards the existence of that  
> particular point?  Given the coordinates of a particular point, how  
> would Google take those numbers into court and say "Your honour, those  
> numbers belong to us."  Particularly when Google had no idea that  
> those numbers existed before they were published in Wikipedia.  Can  
> you conceive of ANY legal system which would allow someone to claim  
> copyright protection on 14 digits that they weren't aware of until  
> they were published by someone else?  With a straight face?  No  
> pulling my leg now, this is a serious conversation.
>
> To think that Google has ANY copyright ownership of points chosen off  
> their aerial photographs simply boggles the mind.  
Excellent, so there is nothing to stop me tracing my entire town off 
Google Imagery into osm, since all I would be doing is choosing points 
off their aerial photograghs and they are not contributing in any way to 
me doing that?
Or would I be on safer ground if I created a page on Wikipedia that 
listed all the streets on my local town with start and end points chosen 
off Google and all the POI  with locations chosen off Google and then 
wait for 'someone' to import them into osm?

rcr
 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

On May 5, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
>
>>> We don't push the legal envelope.
>>
>> Bullshit.  Sorry, but it's bullshit.  Okay, so I have a railroad  
>> map [...]
>> All you can do is close your eyes, let me import it, and hope that  
>> I'm not
>> infringing some railroad mapping company's data.
>
> Wait a sec - are you actually saying that OSM (and the OSMF) should  
> encourage
> covert copyright infringement? (Or database directive infringement,  
> for that
> matter). Geez, man!

No, I'm saying that you can't know that you're doing it.  And that, my  
friends, is *exactly* why the concept of innocent infringement  
exists.  In order to gain its protection, you must be able to show why  
you thought you had permission (and we *think* that everything  
uploaded to OSM is either copyright-free or licensed under the CC-By- 
SA because of the contributor agreement to which people subscribe when  
they join).  You must cease distribution when informed of the  
infringement.  And you must cooperate with the judge in the case to  
make amends.

> In case you haven't noticed, all licenses for online mapping and  
> data are
> still "wet on the page".

Sure.  That means that we're pushing the envelope.  We may not WANT to  
do so, but that's what we're doing, and we shouldn't fool ourselves.

>
>> No, I didn't think anybody was insane enough to worry about
>> copyright.  There are FAR more important issues in doing an import
>> from Wikipedia.
>
> So go ahead, but don't count on me paying your lawyer bill.


I believe that the legal risks are somewhere between zero and nil.   
Which is why I'm trying to tell people that the legal issue is a  
chimera, and that the technical issues are FAR FAR more important.   
But nobody wants to talk about the hard stuff.  Everybody just wants  
to be an armchair lawyer rather than exercize their brain.

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

On May 5, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

>
> Russ Nelson wrote:
>> Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point
>> on  a Google Map?  Google?  Or the Wikipedia editor[...]?
>
> Sweat-of-the-brow doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that "A did  
> some work,
> but B did more, so B owns the copyright". _Both_ A and B own some  
> copyright.

What work or creativity did Google do towards the existence of that  
particular point?  Given the coordinates of a particular point, how  
would Google take those numbers into court and say "Your honour, those  
numbers belong to us."  Particularly when Google had no idea that  
those numbers existed before they were published in Wikipedia.  Can  
you conceive of ANY legal system which would allow someone to claim  
copyright protection on 14 digits that they weren't aware of until  
they were published by someone else?  With a straight face?  No  
pulling my leg now, this is a serious conversation.

To think that Google has ANY copyright ownership of points chosen off  
their aerial photographs simply boggles the mind.  That would be like  
me taking a photograph of something (which is clearly a copyrightable  
work), you choosing to say something about a particular point 5.3785  
inches from the bottom and 7.3992 inches from the left, and me  
claiming that 5.3785, 7.3992 infringes my copyright.  I'm like WTF???

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Jonathan Bennett]

Russ Nelson wrote:
> Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a  
> coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and  
> name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?  If I do this  
> under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the  
> import if somebody has a better idea later.
>   
Plenty of reason. To give just one example I came up with after no 
thought at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Gallery is already in OSM as 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/30361827 so you'd be 
duplicating a POI -- OSM's location for this point is also more accurate 
than WP's (although I may now edit the WP coords).

I could probably come up with a few dozen more examples just in my local 
mapping area, where the same problems would occur. Scale this up to a 
worldwide level and you'd just be creating thousands and thousands of 
duplicate points.

Jono

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Paul Johnson]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Adam Schreiber wrote:
>> We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from.
> 
> Oh yes we do: Google Maps.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools
> 
> There is absolutely no way that Wikipedia-derived co-ordinates are suitable
> for mass import into OSM.

I know a lot of the wikipedia landmarks for Salem are good because I
created them...





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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Martes, 5 de Mayo de 2009, Russ Nelson escribió:
> On May 5, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > We have the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine instead.
>
> Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on
> a Google Map?  Google?  Or the Wikipedia editor [...] OMG, I'm practically 
> DRIPPING with sweat off my brow just thinking about it.

OK, but *you* tell that to the Google Lawyer Legion(tm)(beta).

In other words: One thing is what the law was designed to do when it was 
introduced, another different thing is how the big conglomerates apply it.


> > We don't push the legal envelope.
>
> Bullshit.  Sorry, but it's bullshit.  Okay, so I have a railroad map [...]  
> All you can do is close your eyes, let me import it, and hope that I'm not 
> infringing some railroad mapping company's data.

Wait a sec - are you actually saying that OSM (and the OSMF) should encourage 
covert copyright infringement? (Or database directive infringement, for that 
matter). Geez, man!

> And then to be publicly saying "Our license is shite; it's such shite that 
> we're considering switching to a license whose ink is metaphorically still 
> wet on the page."  That's not pushing the legal envelope??

Well, in a sense. OSM is pioneering the ODbL here (and I'm actually proud of 
that).

In case you haven't noticed, all licenses for online mapping and data are 
still "wet on the page". Over here, national and regional mapping agencies 
are striving to understand how this DB directive affects them and the 
publication of their geodata.

OSM pushing the legal envelope? Nope. Mapping technology advances in the last 
15 years clashing against copyright law? Hell yeah.


> No, I didn't think anybody was insane enough to worry about
> copyright.  There are FAR more important issues in doing an import
> from Wikipedia.

So go ahead, but don't count on me paying your lawyer bill.


Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

Win95 es el hijo deforme de un Billy Puertas ...


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Russ Nelson wrote:
> Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point 
> on  a Google Map?  Google?  Or the Wikipedia editor[...]?

Sweat-of-the-brow doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that "A did some work,
but B did more, so B owns the copyright". _Both_ A and B own some copyright.

> Bullshit.  Sorry, but it's bullshit.  Okay, so I have a railroad 
> map of New York State which I could drop in toto into OSM.  I 
> *claim* to have derived it from completely public-domain 
> sources (USGS topo and DOQ).  But you don't know that.  You 
> can't know that.  All you can do is close your eyes, let me 
> import it, and hope that I'm not infringing some railroad 
> mapping company's data.  

No. If you tell me (or, by extension, the OSM community) publicly, or I
notice, I _will_ look. I will not close my eyes. If it looks suspicious I'll
raise it on the lists.

You don't need Easter eggs to spot infringement. For example, there is
someone on this list who figured out, correctly, the copyrighted source from
which People's Map got their road numbers. I'll let her speak for herself if
she wants to.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

On May 5, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> We have the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine instead.

Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on  
a Google Map?  Google?  Or the Wikipedia editor, who located the  
point, identified the point, clicked on the point, copied the lat and  
lon, edited the wikipedia page, pasted the lat and lon into the page  
in the correct format, OMG, I'm practically DRIPPING with sweat off my  
brow just thinking about it.  And how much sweating has Google  
contributed?  As much as they do when NOT serving up an image that  
somebody is clicking on.  In other words: not at all.

See what I mean about weird ideas?

> One is that we are whiter than white - that's what we're here for.  
> We don't
> push the legal envelope.


Bullshit.  Sorry, but it's bullshit.  Okay, so I have a railroad map  
of New York State which I could drop in toto into OSM.  I *claim* to  
have derived it from completely public-domain sources (USGS topo and  
DOQ).  But you don't know that.  You can't know that.  All you can do  
is close your eyes, let me import it, and hope that I'm not infringing  
some railroad mapping company's data.  The only way you're ever going  
to find out is if you get sued.  So much for not pushing the legal  
envelope.  And then to be publicly saying "Our license is shite; it's  
such shite that we're considering switching to a license whose ink is  
metaphorically still wet on the page."  That's not pushing the legal  
envelope??  And to be tracing off of Yahoo's maps based on something  
less than a signed contract on paper?  C'mon, Richard, you need a  
bigger shovel.

Bulk imports should always be done by a special user so that there is  
no problem removing the data should someone claim infringement.  But  
it's simply foolish to fail to import something simply because someone  
who isn't the copyright holder alleges that the data might be  
infringing.  You don't know; they don't know; the only one who really  
knows is the party doing the infringing and the infringed party, and  
the first one isn't talking.

No, I didn't think anybody was insane enough to worry about  
copyright.  There are FAR more important issues in doing an import  
from Wikipedia.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Russ Nelson wrote:
> In fact, we don't know this.  And since Google didn't create those 
> lat/lon pairs, the Wikipedia editor did, Google had no participation 
> in the act of creation, and thus no copyright claim.
> 
> You guys have some really weird ideas about copyright.

Yeah, but by "you guys" you actually mean Europe, and in particular, the UK.
I mean, your paragraph above makes absolute sense for someone who knows a
bit about the US legal framework and US legal history. I could read Feist vs
Rural and Mason vs Montgomery Data and say exactly the same thing.

The trouble is that I'm sitting in a stone cottage in a quiet Cotswold
country town opposite a pub serving five real ciders and a comfortable
hourly InterCity to Lond

- scratch that -

The trouble is that I'm sitting in England and it doesn't, frankly, apply to
me or my compatriots. We don't have Feist vs Rural, we have Ordnance Survey
vs the Automobile Association and all your "act of creation" stuff means,
really, bugger all here. We have the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine instead. It
sucks harder than a Hoover, but it's there.

So there are three important OSM principles here.

One is that we are whiter than white - that's what we're here for. We don't
push the legal envelope. If someone else wants to, that's fine. But we don't
want to be the test case. I strongly suspect, though I stand to be
contradicted, that CloudMade doesn't want us to be the test case either.

The second is that we have the manpower of crowdsourcing (and the power of
Greyskull). Yeah, we could import a few dozen POIs from Wikipedia. Oh joy.
Alternatively we could get our 100,000 mappers to map them themselves. I
suppose, worst case scenario, it might take up to a month.

The third, of course, is that anything decided without community consensus
(cf Cyprus edit war) risks unleashing a bot arms race.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

On May 5, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote:

> Russ Nelson schrieb:
>> Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a
>> coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and
>> name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?
>
> * There is already a free, constantly-updated, machine-readable and,
> most importantly, authoritative source of "Wikipedia entry location"
> information available: Wikipedia itself.


Argh.  Okay, so here's the problem as I see it:

1) We encourage people to add features to OSM.  Specifically I'm  
thinking of public art like the Charging Bull aka the Wall Street  
Bull.  It's in OSM as tourism=artwork.
2) But it's also in Wikipedia.
3) We could not import it.  But then, by dribs and by drabs, over  
time, people will re-create all of Wikipedia's (and in fact EVERY  
other bit of geodata) entries, because when they look at the editor,  
it's not there.

There's two ways we could go:   either import EVERYTHING into OSM.  Or  
else make sure that everything which map renderers could use is also  
available to OSM editors.  One way to do that is to have a second API  
which consists of a cached copy of everything that map renderers might  
use, all merged into one read-only OSM-compatible api.  So when  
somebody asks to edit an area, the editor also shows them the read- 
only elements, so they know not to enter anything already available to  
map users.

Especially Wikipedia, which is already editable in a different  
format.  Maybe what we really need is a gateway to editing Wikipedia  
using OSM as a front-end?

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice

[Emilie Laffray]

Hello,

Stephan Plepelits wrote:
> I would say it should be exactly the same as for the name-tag[1].
>
> Local language:
> name=Foobar
> the way with the housenumbers get
> addr:street=Foobar
>
> if you have translations
> name:ua=Uaah
> then you can do
> addr:street:ua=Uaah
>
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names
>
>   
I was actually thinking about anything that carries a name.
In the example you have given me, you have partially answer the question
that I was asking: name is expressed in the local language. If you want
to add translation, you need to append :isolanguage to the named field.
> What might be interesting and worth a discussion: A tag to describe the
> default language of this object, e.g. "language=en". This could als be
> several tags, e.g.
> name=België - Belgique - Belgien
> name:nl=België
> name:fr=Belgique
> name:da=Belgien
> (and some more)
> language=nl;fr;da<- this would be new
> (I hope I got the languages right, sorry if not)
>
> Comments?
>   
I like the idea of the language element. I would like to add an extra
precision in this case. I think the order of language should be by
importance.
Unfortunately, in this case namely the country, it is something highly
political to even consider an order. But, in the case of a town located
in the French speaking part, it would be logical to put something like
fr;nl;da instead of nl;fr;da. The reverse would be true.
Belgium is one interesting place to look at; Spain might be an other
place to look at. The area around Barcelona is likely to be named in
Catalan nowadays rather than Castellano.
The order of language is likely to be a minefield because we are talking
about something highly political, but it would allow to support the
concept of native language, which I believe is very important.
Things like different alphabet might be also interesting to look at even
if it is likely that it can be subsumed under translation.

Emilie Laffray



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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/5/5 Frederik Ramm :
> Please: Wikimapia, or even Wikipedia or OpenAerialMap may be on the
> other side of *our* definition of acceptable, but that does not make
> them any less free, or make them second-rate projects. It is time to
> bury that childish "but we are cleaner than you" rivalry.

I very much agree about OpenAerialMap -- if we can't trust the
OpenAerialMap contributors about the licensing why should any person
in OSM trust any other OSM contributor rather than start redrawing
everything they can from scratch and only trust their own
contributions.

On a different note, I was told on talk-es that tagzania.com (a
wikimapia lookalike) got a confirmation from Google that their use of
Google imagery for drawing stuff over it and tagging stuff, is within
the limits of the TOS. (don't quote me on this)

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

On May 5, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

>
> Adam Schreiber wrote:
>> We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates  
>> from.
>
> Oh yes we do: Google Maps.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools
>
> There is absolutely no way that Wikipedia-derived co-ordinates are  
> suitable
> for mass import into OSM.


In fact, we don't know this.  And since Google didn't create those lat/ 
lon pairs, the Wikipedia editor did, Google had no participation in  
the act of creation, and thus no copyright claim.

You guys have some really weird ideas about copyright.

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

On May 5, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Adam Schreiber wrote:
>
> Is it innocent infringement if we import licensed data in good faith,
> knowing that there may be problems with what they've provided?

Do we in fact know this?  If so, we should report it to Wikipedia so  
that they can fix it.

If you have no evidence that your speculation is true, then yes, it's  
innocent infringement.

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Tobias Knerr]

Russ Nelson schrieb:
> Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a  
> coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and  
> name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?

* There is already a free, constantly-updated, machine-readable and,
most importantly, authoritative source of "Wikipedia entry location"
information available: Wikipedia itself.

* Tons of tags for more widely known features (there isn't just
en.wikipedia...). Need frequent updates.

* Wikipedia does contain events, historical features etc. that aren't
usually entered into OSM.

* Sources for Wikipedia's coordinates unknown, but it's probable that
most of them are from Google.

* If subject to copyright: Incompatible licenses.
  - GFDL vs. CC-BY-SA 2.0 (now)
  - CC-BY-SA 3.0 vs. CC-BY-SA 2.0 (hopefully soon)
  - CC-BY-SA 3.0 vs. ODBL (maybe later)

Just some brainstorming.

Tobias Knerr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
>Thomas Wood wrote:
>> Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :)
> That poor guy has been told by some self-important OSMers that 
> Wikimapia was an unacceptable source, and they somehow forgot 
> to say that this is just the OSM interpretation. SFan00 dutifully 
> started removing Wikimapia references from Wikipedia ("they're 
> unacceptable, you know"), and ended up on the receiving end of 
> a lot of justified Wikipedians' anger.

You are very charitable, Frederik (well, maybe not to those of us who you've
just called self-important :) ) - probably too charitable. Yes, he did ask
whether he should import them to OSM, and we replied no. To that question,
nothing else. He also asked "so I should remove them from Wikipedia?" (or
something along those lines) and was told that #osm has no power over, or
indeed interest in, Wikipedia.

Why he, or you, or anyone should take comments in #osm to mean "oh, you
should do this in Wikipedia" without even questioning it or - heavens above
- asking some Wikipedia people, I don't know.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice

[Pieren]

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Cartinus
>> > Sounds like I can do:
>> > addr:street:en:Tereschenkivska Street
>> > and
>> > addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська
>> > Is this best practice?
>
> ... This nearby street will have the tags highway=* + name=Терещнкіівська
> + name:en=Tereschenkivska Street (+ maybe name:ua=Терещнкіівська) Then only
> the value of name= of the street needs to match the value of addr:street of
> the object with the address and you can do a more complex look-up to get all
> the multi-lingual versions of the address.
>

Hu! As far as I understood, this thread was about regions where local
names are not obvious:
2009/3/6 Iván Sánchez Ortega :
> Because, *sometimes*, the default name is different from the local name in the
> official language... or the official language in a zone may be contested.

In other cases, and most of the time, the local name IS in the
official language. So I don't understand why we should write
name=Терещнкіівська
+ name:ua=Терещнкіівська
or
addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська

I have the feeling that someone could believe by reading this thread
that the "recommended" way to write all names everywhere is to enter
twice the same:
name=local name
name:local_country_code=local name

which is unnecessary excepted for the special multilingual
zones as commented above. But I don't think Ukraine is in this case.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Yann Coupin]

IANAL but can't you stop basing your defense on the "good faith"  
argument as soon as you discuss the content beforehand like we're doing?

Le 5 mai 09 à 20:58, Adam Schreiber a écrit :

> Is it innocent infringement if we import licensed data in good faith,
> knowing that there may be problems with what they've provided?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/5/5 Russ Nelson :
> Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a
> coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and
> name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?  If I do this
> under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the
> import if somebody has a better idea later.

Some notes:
There's already the wikipedia=NAME tag (wikipedia=LA:NAME for
non-english wikipedias, where LA=en,de...) in use in some places, so
I'd recommend using that.

In my experience most of the POIs in wikipedia already exist in some
way in OSM (I know in my city all exist) so it may be better to try
and do some matching with existing objects before adding a new POI.

In Poland I have added wikipedia= tags to all existing places (cities,
town, villages, suburb) without adding anything from wikipedia that
wasn't in OSM already, I'm pretty sure that didn't infringe on
anyone's rights.  The script managed to match 24000 wikipedia entries
to OSM nodes.  Many of the articles had no coordinates but the script
did the matching also based on belonging to administrative divisions,
post-code or the locality code in national registry of localities.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Adam Schreiber wrote:
> We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from.

Oh yes we do: Google Maps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools

There is absolutely no way that Wikipedia-derived co-ordinates are suitable
for mass import into OSM.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Adam Schreiber]

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
>
> On May 5, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Adam Schreiber wrote:
>>
>> We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates
>> from.
>
>
> We don't care either.  That's wikipedia's problem.  They're licensing
> the data under CC-By-SA now, so if we were found to be infringing, it
> would be innocent infringing.  Rest easy.  We incur no extra legal
> risk when importing public-domain or licensed (under a compatible
> license) data.

Is it innocent infringement if we import licensed data in good faith,
knowing that there may be problems with what they've provided?

Adam

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Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=tool_booth also for automated toll cameras?

[Ulf Lamping]

Greg Troxel schrieb:
> David Lynch  writes:
> 
>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:45, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> 
>>> Is it ok to use barrier=toll_booth for portals over the road with
>>> cameras for automated toll collection, like the ones used for LKW
>>> Maut (HGV toll) in Germany?  To me, toll_booth indicates a physical
>>> barrier, and a portal is no barrier.
> 
>> I've been using it for electronic toll collection, even though it
>> doesn't require stopping.
>>
>> There probably should be some tag like "highway=toll_collection" to
>> cover places where tolls are collected in addition to
>> barrier=toll_booth where an actual stop is required.
> 
> To me, toll booths are features like stop signs and traffic lights.
> Barriers are things like gates that you more or less can't get through,
> or are an unusual hassle.

Well, as the name toll *booth* implies, to me highway=toll_booth or 
barrier=toll_booth is about where someone sits in a booth and collects a 
toll from you. You'll very often also find a barrier=lift_gate to 
"enforce" the toll - and I would think barrier=toll_booth implies these 
kind of gates together with a booth ;-)

This wouldn't IMHO include the (automated) toll portals often found at 
german motorways - no booth involved! This reminds me more of a 
speed_camera or maybe even surveillance than of a "classical" toll booth ...

Maybe something like highway=toll_surveillance ? Or some native speaker 
here with a better term?

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Adam Schreiber]

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Thomas Wood wrote:
>> Unverified and somewhat copyrightable sources.
>
> While I'm not the greatest fan of Wikipedia myself, I think that we
> should stop perpetuating such unjustified and unfair criticism.
>
> Like us, Wikipedia relies on a large user base, and they do a lot to
> educate these users about copyright. Their sources are no less
> "verified" than ours. They take a different stance on deriving data from
>  Google et al., but this is just a different interpretation of existing
> law than the one we apply. Wikipedia is not encouraging copyright
> violation, they have just mapped out a different course through what is
> a grey and murky area.
>
> Our approach is more cautious than Wikipedia's, but that does not make
> us "better" or "cleaner", and it would do us all good to respect
> Wikipedians' decisions in their realm instead of telling everyone how
> they are basically pirates.
>
>> Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :)
>
> That poor guy has been told by some self-important OSMers that Wikimapia
> was an unacceptable source, and they somehow forgot to say that this is
> just the OSM interpretation. SFan00 dutifully started removing Wikimapia
> references from Wikipedia ("they're unacceptable, you know"), and ended
> up on the receiving end of a lot of justified Wikipedians' anger.
>
> Please: Wikimapia, or even Wikipedia or OpenAerialMap may be on the
> other side of *our* definition of acceptable, but that does not make
> them any less free, or make them second-rate projects. It is time to
> bury that childish "but we are cleaner than you" rivalry.

I wouldn't say what they've done is unacceptable and works for them.
I just think there's a difference between 1,000,000 wikipedia editors
each deriving one point from a copyrighted source and us whole sale
importing those 1,000,000 points.

Cheers,

Adam

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Thomas Wood wrote:
> Unverified and somewhat copyrightable sources.

While I'm not the greatest fan of Wikipedia myself, I think that we 
should stop perpetuating such unjustified and unfair criticism.

Like us, Wikipedia relies on a large user base, and they do a lot to 
educate these users about copyright. Their sources are no less 
"verified" than ours. They take a different stance on deriving data from 
  Google et al., but this is just a different interpretation of existing 
law than the one we apply. Wikipedia is not encouraging copyright 
violation, they have just mapped out a different course through what is 
a grey and murky area.

Our approach is more cautious than Wikipedia's, but that does not make 
us "better" or "cleaner", and it would do us all good to respect 
Wikipedians' decisions in their realm instead of telling everyone how 
they are basically pirates.

> Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :)

That poor guy has been told by some self-important OSMers that Wikimapia 
was an unacceptable source, and they somehow forgot to say that this is 
just the OSM interpretation. SFan00 dutifully started removing Wikimapia 
references from Wikipedia ("they're unacceptable, you know"), and ended 
up on the receiving end of a lot of justified Wikipedians' anger.

Please: Wikimapia, or even Wikipedia or OpenAerialMap may be on the 
other side of *our* definition of acceptable, but that does not make 
them any less free, or make them second-rate projects. It is time to 
bury that childish "but we are cleaner than you" rivalry.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice

[Stephan Plepelits]

I would say it should be exactly the same as for the name-tag[1].

Local language:
name=Foobar
the way with the housenumbers get
addr:street=Foobar

if you have translations
name:ua=Uaah
then you can do
addr:street:ua=Uaah

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names

What might be interesting and worth a discussion: A tag to describe the
default language of this object, e.g. "language=en". This could als be
several tags, e.g.
name=België - Belgique - Belgien
name:nl=België
name:fr=Belgique
name:da=Belgien
(and some more)
language=nl;fr;da<- this would be new
(I hope I got the languages right, sorry if not)

Comments?

greetings,
Stephan
-- 
Seid unbequem, seid Sand, nicht Öl im Getriebe der Welt! - Günther Eich
,-.
| Stephan Plepelits,  |
| Technische Universität Wien   -Studium Informatik & Raumplanung |
| > openstreetbrowser.org > couchsurfing.com > tubasis.at > bl.mud.at |
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

On May 5, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Adam Schreiber wrote:
>
> We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates  
> from.


We don't care either.  That's wikipedia's problem.  They're licensing  
the data under CC-By-SA now, so if we were found to be infringing, it  
would be innocent infringing.  Rest easy.  We incur no extra legal  
risk when importing public-domain or licensed (under a compatible  
license) data.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice

[Emilie Laffray]

Hi,

this is an interesting question. I have a slightly related question
regarding the naming of objects in OSM.
I was wondering in that case the :ua is actually needed since it is
actually the native language of the place. Wouldn't it make more sense
to have simply addr:street: and keep the one for English.
I am not sure that here a translation is actually needed. If you need to
go to an address, unless it is something extremely famous, you will be
inputting the local name not any foreign name.
So if this scenario was to prevail, ua and en suffix added, how do we
know that it is the native language?
I suspect that in most cases, the only language that you will find is
only the native language.

Emilie Laffray

Nick Black wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> Was there an agreed answer to this issue.
>
> I want to tag an address in Kyiv using both the English and Ukrainian
> street names.  
>
> Sounds like I can do:
>
> addr:street:en:Tereschenkivska Street
>
> and
>
> addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська
>
> Is this best practice? 
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Ben Laenen  > wrote:
>
> On Sunday 15 March 2009, Tal wrote:
> > name:local_lang="fr - nl" is indeed an interesting idea, that I
> > haven't thought of.
> > However, I ask myself if it's flexible enough.
> > It seems that for just a little more coding you get the much more
> > flexible "{name:fr} - {name:nl}" (with special escape combinations
> > \\, \{, \}  ).
> >
> > I think that mappers from Brussels and also other parts of the word
> > with strings comprised from two languages should add there insights.
> > Do they care about this problem? Are they willing to use such a
> > solution?
>
> Only if it's actually rendering both names, and only if it applies
> to an
> area that automatically adds the "local_lang=fr;nl" tag to all objects
> inside its boundaries (it's just a bad idea to tag every object with
> what it's local language is, you can override with a tag on the object
> itself if it's different).
>
> I wouldn't do "local_lang=fr - nl" as the separator can always
> vary for
> the same object (you could have a dash, or a newline or just a
> space, a
> slash or a bullet or whatever), depending on what the person
> making the
> maps likes most.
>
> But given the complexity of handling boundaries to add tags to the
> objects I think we'll be doing "name=Dutch name - French
> name", "name:nl=Dutch name", "name:fr=French name" in Brussels for a
> long time to come.
>
> Greetings
> Ben
>
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>
>
> -- 
> -- 
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> twitter.com/nick_b 
> 
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=tool_booth also for automated toll cameras?

[Greg Troxel]

David Lynch  writes:

> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:45, Maarten Deen  wrote:

>> Is it ok to use barrier=toll_booth for portals over the road with
>> cameras for automated toll collection, like the ones used for LKW
>> Maut (HGV toll) in Germany?  To me, toll_booth indicates a physical
>> barrier, and a portal is no barrier.

> I've been using it for electronic toll collection, even though it
> doesn't require stopping.
>
> There probably should be some tag like "highway=toll_collection" to
> cover places where tolls are collected in addition to
> barrier=toll_booth where an actual stop is required.

To me, toll booths are features like stop signs and traffic lights.
Barriers are things like gates that you more or less can't get through,
or are an unusual hassle.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Thomas Wood]

Unverified and somewhat copyrightable sources.

Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :)

2009/5/5 Russ Nelson :
> Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a
> coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and
> name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?  If I do this
> under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the
> import if somebody has a better idea later.
>
> --
> Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
> r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
> http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson
>
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Regards,
Thomas Wood
(Edgemaster)

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Re: [OSM-talk] barrier=tool_booth also for automated toll cameras?

[David Lynch]

I've been using it for electronic toll collection, even though it
doesn't require stopping.

There probably should be some tag like "highway=toll_collection" to
cover places where tolls are collected in addition to
barrier=toll_booth where an actual stop is required.

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:45, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> Is it ok to use barrier=toll_booth for portals over the road with cameras for
> automated toll collection, like the ones used for LKW Maut (HGV toll) in 
> Germany?
> To me, toll_booth indicates a physical barrier, and a portal is no barrier.
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
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>



-- 
David J. Lynch
djly...@gmail.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Adam Schreiber]

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a
> coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and
> name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?

We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from.

While a single point sourced from Google Earth would probably be ok,
an entire collection possibly sourced from there would be
reconstituting their database right?

Cheers,

Adam

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[OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?

[Russ Nelson]

Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a  
coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and  
name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry?  If I do this  
under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the  
import if somebody has a better idea later.

--
Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Gaza WMS server unavailable?

[Jonas Krückel]

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason schrieb:
> Forwarding this to talk@ since the talk-ps@ moderator isn't allowing
> this through.
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 
> Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:38 PM
> Subject: Gaza WMS server unavailable?
> To: talk...@openstreetmap.org
>
> Is the secret 2m WMS for Gaza unavailable?. I'm getting connection
> refused when trying to contact the usual server.
>   
Me too. I get red tiles with exception occured.

Jonas

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[OSM-talk] barrier=tool_booth also for automated toll cameras?

[Maarten Deen]

Is it ok to use barrier=toll_booth for portals over the road with cameras for 
automated toll collection, like the ones used for LKW Maut (HGV toll) in 
Germany?
To me, toll_booth indicates a physical barrier, and a portal is no barrier.

Regards,
Maarten

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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Gaza WMS server unavailable?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

Forwarding this to talk@ since the talk-ps@ moderator isn't allowing
this through.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:38 PM
Subject: Gaza WMS server unavailable?
To: talk...@openstreetmap.org

Is the secret 2m WMS for Gaza unavailable?. I'm getting connection
refused when trying to contact the usual server.

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[OSM-talk] NOTICE: tile (mapnik) downtime today 7pm UTC ~30mins

[Grant Slater]

OSM,

Apologies for the short notice...

tile.openstreetmap.org (Mapnik layer) will be unavailable for up to 
30mins from 7pm UTC today.

An external disk array (+controller) is being re-allocated to the tile 
server.
Compulsory picture:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:DellPowerVault220S.jpg

Kind regards,
 Grant / Firefishy
 OSM Sysadmin Team


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Re: [OSM-talk] How to best do Bulk Changes (XAPI troubles)

[Eddy Petrișor]

Patrick Weber a scris:
> First, is this a omission or intended that XAPI doesnt carry the version
> info? Secondly, how can I get OSM data which contains the version info?
> And finally, does anyone have advice on an easier way of generating bulk
> changes like this? (I am talking about 400 changes).

May I suggest using the Python Api for your bulk changes?

The code is still in its infancy, but is really usable and I already used
it to make some consistency changes and various fixes.

Code can be grabbed from SVN:

http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/python_lib/

And documentation is on the wiki:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/PythonOsmApi

-- 
Regards,
EddyP
=
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein



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Re: [OSM-talk] Python API

[Eddy Petrișor]

Eddy Petrișor a scris:
> Etienne Chové a scris:
>> Etienne Chové a écrit :
>>> Dears,
>>>
>>> I wrote a python class to communicate with OSM API (read, write, 
>>> update). For interested users, informations are here [1].
>>>
>>> May I put sources on the dev server ?
>> This is now hosted on the main osm svn repositrory. I appologize for 
>> people wanting it on an external repository but I prefer to put it on an 
>> osm server.
>>
>> It's now at : http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/python_lib/
>>
>> Thanks to Eddy Petrișor for some bugfix and ideas proposed on his 
>> repository.
> 
> And I have a first bug fix, too. There is a spelling error in the code.

Which you seem to already have fixed :-D

BTW, it might be useful to have an ApiVersion method so that incompatible 
changes
like the the switch of parameter position in the Api can be signalled to 
users(apps)
and they don't break suddenly.

-- 
Regards,
EddyP
=
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein



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Re: [OSM-talk] Python API

[Eddy Petrișor]

Etienne Chové a scris:
> Etienne Chové a écrit :
>> Dears,
>>
>> I wrote a python class to communicate with OSM API (read, write, 
>> update). For interested users, informations are here [1].
>>
>> May I put sources on the dev server ?
> 
> This is now hosted on the main osm svn repositrory. I appologize for 
> people wanting it on an external repository but I prefer to put it on an 
> osm server.
> 
> It's now at : http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/python_lib/
> 
> Thanks to Eddy Petrișor for some bugfix and ideas proposed on his 
> repository.

And I have a first bug fix, too. There is a spelling error in the code.

See attachment.

-- 
Regards,
EddyP
=
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein
From 9a6233d0f5971feae07cc5f2f59567b9f4896dd7 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: =?utf-8?q?Eddy=20Petri=C8=99or?= 
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 03:32:03 +0300
Subject: [PATCH] bugfix: fix spelling of 'Exception'

---
 OsmApi.py |   12 ++--
 1 files changed, 6 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/OsmApi.py b/OsmApi.py
index 89f4924..05a86c9 100644
--- a/OsmApi.py
+++ b/OsmApi.py
@@ -133,7 +133,7 @@ class OsmApi:
 def WayUpdate(self, WayData):
 """ Updates way with WayData. Returns updated WayData (without timestamp). """
 if self._CurrentChangesetId == -1:
-raise Execption, "No changeset currently opened"
+raise Exception, "No changeset currently opened"
 WayData[u"changeset"] = self._CurrentChangesetId
 result = self._put("/api/0.6/way/"+str(WayData[u"id"]), self._XmlBuild("way", WayData))
 WayData[u"version"] = int(result.strip())
@@ -143,7 +143,7 @@ class OsmApi:
 def WayDelete(self, WayData):
 """ Delete way with WayData. Returns updated WayData (without timestamp). """
 if self._CurrentChangesetId == -1:
-raise Execption, "No changeset currently opened"
+raise Exception, "No changeset currently opened"
 WayData[u"changeset"] = self._CurrentChangesetId
 result = self._delete("/api/0.6/way/"+str(WayData[u"id"]), self._XmlBuild("way", WayData))
 WayData[u"version"] = int(result.strip())
@@ -154,7 +154,7 @@ class OsmApi:
 def WayCreate(self, WayData):
 """ Creates a way. Returns updated WayData (without timestamp). """
 if self._CurrentChangesetId == -1:
-raise Execption, "No changeset currently opened"
+raise Exception, "No changeset currently opened"
 WayData[u"changeset"] = self._CurrentChangesetId
 result = self._put("/api/0.6/way/create", self._XmlBuild("way", WayData))
 WayData[u"id"]  = int(result.strip())
@@ -203,7 +203,7 @@ class OsmApi:
 def RelationUpdate(self, RelationData):
 """ Updates relation with RelationData. Returns updated RelationData (without timestamp). """
 if self._CurrentChangesetId == -1:
-raise Execption, "No changeset currently opened"
+raise Exception, "No changeset currently opened"
 RelationData[u"changeset"] = self._CurrentChangesetId
 result = self._put("/api/0.6/relation/"+str(RelationData[u"id"]), self._XmlBuild("relation", RelationData))
 RelationData[u"version"] = int(result.strip())
@@ -213,7 +213,7 @@ class OsmApi:
 def RelationDelete(self, RelationData):
 """ Delete relation with RelationData. Returns updated RelationData (without timestamp). """
 if self._CurrentChangesetId == -1:
-raise Execption, "No changeset currently opened"
+raise Exception, "No changeset currently opened"
 RelationData[u"changeset"] = self._CurrentChangesetId
 result = self._delete("/api/0.6/relation/"+str(RelationData[u"id"]), self._XmlBuild("relation", RelationData))
 RelationData[u"version"] = int(result.strip())
@@ -224,7 +224,7 @@ class OsmApi:
 def RelationCreate(self, RelationData):
 """ Creates a relation. Returns updated RelationData (without timestamp). """
 if self._CurrentChangesetId == -1:
-raise Execption, "No changeset currently opened"
+raise Exception, "No changeset currently opened"
 RelationData[u"changeset"] = self._CurrentChangesetId
 result = self._put("/api/0.6/relation/create", self._XmlBuild("relation", RelationData))
 RelationData[u"id"]  = int(result.strip())
-- 
1.5.6.5



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[OSM-talk] ODbL: Defining Substantial in OSM's Context

[Grant Slater]

Legal,

The ODbL (potential future OpenStreetMap license) relies on the meaning 
of "Substantial".

The ODbL 1.0rc defines it as:
"Substantial" - Means substantial in terms of quantity or quality or a 
combination of both. The repeated and systematic Extraction or 
Re-utilisation of insubstantial parts of the Contents may amount to the 
Extraction or Re-utilisation of a Substantial part of the Contents.

On behalf of the Licensing Working Group I have started a wiki document 
to define what we as a project believe "Substantial" to be in 
OpenStreetMap's context.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Substantial_Defined

The ODbL 1.0 Release Candidate is available here:
http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/

Regards,
 Grant


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