Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Mike N.]

From: "Frederik Ramm" 
>
> Pieren wrote:
>> I say that because I spent a little bit time to look the edits of this
>> person, working intensively in different countries with a lot of short
>> edits and after one day of the first alarms about this user.
>
> But do you even have anyhing to prove that this is vandalism? Just
> because a new account makes lots of edits in different places doesn't
> mean anything...

   I ran into just this sort of thing with a new account set up about a day 
after our RR8 friend.Rapid edits in several countries; dirt tracks in 
Italy and the wilds of Canada... and a boulevard near me in what was last an 
open field in the most recent aerial photography. The boulevard was in 2 
segments which overlapped each other, didn't connect to any other roadway, 
and one of them was mis-spelled. So I asked the mapper where they got 
their information for the new roadway - they replied that they used to live 
here and had a legitimate web reference to the new road name and location. 
So I believe that the way(s) in my area are real and just created from a 
rough GPS track, or perhaps even from memory.I'll run a GPS track survey 
on it next time I drive by there.

   So while I have no way of knowing about RR8, I can appreciate the process 
not instantly vaporizing suspicious activity.Hopefully the RR8 will be 
resolved without people losing work.
 


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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Dermot McNally]

2009/9/2 Frederik Ramm :

> But do you even have anyhing to prove that this is vandalism? Just
> because a new account makes lots of edits in different places doesn't
> mean anything... there might be a pre-existing group of people on some
> mailing list and one of them says "hey, check out OSM, I've set up this
> account and you can all used it..." - not the best of ideas but not
> vandalism either.

I'll go over what the mapper did in Ireland, which to me is the
clearest case of (at least) reckless incompetence (an ill that can be
cured through communication, but only with two-way communication):

* All motorway under construction marked complete. Including adding
amateurish (wrong way, driving on right) stubs to make the pieces
connect.

* Most long-distance dual-carriageways up-tagged to motorways,
including the changing of refs (e.g. N7-M7)

* Slip roads on the up-classified sections retagged to motorway (not
motorway_link)

In all, about 2-200km of road were retagged with no basis whatsoever.


I won't imply malice, but if I see a baby with a can of spray paint
defacing my house wall I'll act just as quickly as if it were a
teenager signing his initials.

Dermot

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Dermot McNally]

2009/9/2 Andy Allan :
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Dermot McNally wrote:
>
>> But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage
>> with community members.
>>
>> Action required.
>
> Yes. By you.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism#Vandalism_response
>
> Doesn't mention demanding "action" on the mailing list.

Steady Andy. I did all of what was mentioned on that page, with the
exception of doing the fixing myself. That was my evening last night.
And I don't expect a lynching based on unfounded allegations either -
It has been identified in great detail here why we are crying
vandalism. I've encountered all kinds of incompetence and poor
judgement from OSM users and this is the first time I've called foul
in such a public way. I'm not crying wolf here.

So please, let's all try to be similarly constructive. I know that
some of these things are hard to do or weighed down with other
baggage. So let's discuss all that and work out what we _should_ do.

Dermot

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Pieren wrote:
> I say that because I spent a little bit time to look the edits of this
> person, working intensively in different countries with a lot of short
> edits and after one day of the first alarms about this user.

But do you even have anyhing to prove that this is vandalism? Just 
because a new account makes lots of edits in different places doesn't 
mean anything... there might be a pre-existing group of people on some 
mailing list and one of them says "hey, check out OSM, I've set up this 
account and you can all used it..." - not the best of ideas but not 
vandalism either.

> That's why I say it is the worst form of vandalism. They "look" like
> normal edits but it is done very shortly in different countries which
> is also questionning about the source of the changes.

Is there any proof that these are not normal edits? (Bear in mind that 
sometimes even "normal edits" break something.)

> And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins until a real
> "revert in one click" is possible from the interface like in
> wikipedia.

I'm sorry but I have not heard anything from you that would make me 
think it would be good to have a "revert in one click" function. You 
sound as if you'd revert anything you find suspicious...

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[David Earl]

On 01/09/2009 23:40, Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote:
> 
>> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM
>> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks
>> like the worst form of vandalism.
> 
> As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm perfectly 
> capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate authority 
> to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, jury and 
> executioner in these matters.
> 
> What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and 
> people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should 
> be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner.
> 
> A group of people demanding that "something by done" on a mailing list 
> does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act.
> 
> After all no matter how "obvious" this or any other case might be in 
> general terms I can't possibly personally determine who is right in any 
> particular case, nor can I set any sort of quorum as to how big the 
> lynch mob on the mailing lists needs to be to trigger action because I 
> can't know if they are people with a legitimate grievance or are indeed 
> just a lynch mob.

Indeed, that puts you in an invidious position.

I had a look at a few of his edits, and while a B road in the UK 
midlands was simply invention, a change to the A9 in the far north of 
Scotland was indeed correct (though incomplete). A node for Keflavik 
airport in Iceland was created in one of its car parks (when it already 
had one nearby).

On the general point, I wonder whether a mechanism to lock the objects 
affected by a particular changeset from further change might be useful 
so that when we have a suspected case we can freeze its objects until we 
can make a decision, so that it can be simply reverted rather than 
ending up with conflicting later changes (often people trying to make 
manual corrections)?

Automatically locking further changes by a particular user may also be 
useful once suspected - more so than banning them, as a determined 
individual will just open a new account.

We've seen two or three users now making calculated, plausible edits 
that are actually wrong, which is a much harder case to deal with than 
wholesale crude deletion or scribbling because it needs local knowledge.

Ireland people, why don't you just revert the changesets you personally 
know to be wrong yourselves - any user can do this, and Frederick's perl 
script is publicly available in svn and isn't hard to set up and use.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Andy Allan]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Dermot McNally wrote:

> But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage
> with community members.
>
> Action required.

Yes. By you.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism#Vandalism_response

Doesn't mention demanding "action" on the mailing list.

So do it properly (especially the bit about assuming good faith),
document what's going on, build a list of concrete examples - i.e. put
a case together (maybe on the wiki?). If it's not possible to resolve
within the community (messages, emails, offering the guy help,
explaining the trunk/primary issues etc), then contact the DWG - but
please don't just email them with a "ban this guy cause I say he's a
vandal" type email; do it properly, give them convincing case notes.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Andy Allan]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Pieren wrote:

> And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins

You're a gold-level member of the OSMF, right? Y'know, the level that
means your annual membership fee is the same cost as a full time admin
to do your beck and call, right?

Didn't think so.

> until a real
> "revert in one click" is possible from the interface like in
> wikipedia.

You'll be waiting a loonnngg time for that then. Unless
you have some l33t h4x0rz skills you're willing to share? After all,
everyone else who's worked on revert code has consistently said on
these mailing lists "oh yeah, a revert button would be trivial, I'll
do it tomorrow". Oh, wait, no we didn't.

I understand what it's like dealing with vandals, so I know why your
annoyed. But please don't start demanding stuff on the mailing lists
from other volunteers, admins or not, it's not going to get anything
solved.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Andy Allan]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Ed Avis wrote:

> By analogy, when adding a street to OSM, most editors do not just show a 
> blank textbox
> and expect the user to enter key=value pairs manually.  They show a few 
> common choices,
> which have been agreed on by the OSM community (whether 'de facto', by common 
> usage,
> or 'de jure', by some arcane wiki voting procedure - but either way, some 
> kind of
> agreement).  I suspect that if all OSM editors merely popped up a dialogue 
> box with blank
> fields and the user documentation 'just use tags', the growth of the project 
> would be
> a bit slower than it is.

You need more understanding of the history of how OSM grew - the
editors did used to just throw up blank textboxes and everything
worked fine. The usage came first, then consensus, then presets.
Documentation was in there somewhere, to varying extents!

> That would certainly work.  To me, this seems a bit 'rude' in some way; 
> wouldn't it be
> better for the JOSM developers to first build consensus around some proposed 
> tagging
> system, before implementing it unilaterally?

No. It wasn't rude when I started rendering Sustrans' mileposts - the
objects were tagged, so I got cracking. Consensus was achieved by
tagging, then it got rendered. Not by presets, nor by discussing ->
presets -> tagging, which is what you're trying to do.

> But as long as the end result is that we
> have some agreed way of tagging GPX traces with the information wanted,

Maybe this is the point you're missing - we already have conventions
on tagging GPS traces. "car" outnumbers "motorcar" by orders of
magnitude. It doesn't take long plugging words into the tag search to
see that many people are tagging with the forms of transport used. So
let's consolidate that by using the tags (could be both, in the case
of motorcar/car) and encouraging the however-many-percent that aren't
tagged already to become tagged. I don't tag my traces because there's
no point. If there was a menu I wouldn't bother because there's no
point.

Make there be a point.

> Oh, I agree that usage is the first step.  But we won't get people using any 
> tagging
> system for foot vs bicycle vs motorcar unless there is some obvious way to 
> specify
> this info when you upload.  Just giving the user a blank textbox doesn't cut 
> it.

Rubbish. People will put tags in when it's either useful to them or
useful to others. When it's useful, it can then be improved. Working
on improving the UI to enter information that nobody is using is
bass-ackwards.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[andrzej zaborowski]

2009/9/2 Frederik Ramm :
> Pieren wrote:
>> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM
>> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks
>> like the worst form of vandalism.
>
> Comments like that are not helpful at all. If that's really your
> attitude then find yourself a tightly controlled, non-crowdsourced project.

On wikipedia perhaps 10 or 15 malicious edits can get you blocked.  I
know this is not wikipedia but this part happens to work very well and
in this case it would have saved people lots of work and time, which
we always lack.  Additionally wikipedia was criticised a lot in media
for allowing anyone to break stuff and it would be a pity if OSM
acquires the same fame in the media and among serious vendors.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Tom Hughes]

On 01/09/09 23:02, Pieren wrote:

> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM
> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks
> like the worst form of vandalism.

As an admin with the technical ability to do these things I'm perfectly 
capable of reacting quickly once I believe I have legitimate authority 
to act. I do not however plan to appoint myself as judge, jury and 
executioner in these matters.

What we are lacking is not people to take action, but mechanisms and 
people to quickly investigate and make decisions on what action should 
be take in an appropriate transparent, democratic and legitimate manner.

A group of people demanding that "something by done" on a mailing list 
does not, in my mind, constitute a legitimate authority for me to act.

After all no matter how "obvious" this or any other case might be in 
general terms I can't possibly personally determine who is right in any 
particular case, nor can I set any sort of quorum as to how big the 
lynch mob on the mailing lists needs to be to trigger action because I 
can't know if they are people with a legitimate grievance or are indeed 
just a lynch mob.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Pieren]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Pieren wrote:
>>
>> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM
>> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks
>> like the worst form of vandalism.
>
> Comments like that are not helpful at all. If that's really your attitude
> then find yourself a tightly controlled, non-crowdsourced project.

I say that because I spent a little bit time to look the edits of this
person, working intensively in different countries with a lot of short
edits and after one day of the first alarms about this user.

> What do you expect "the admins" to do? Drop their day job and chase after
> someone where even people on the mailing lists say they are not really sure
> if this is vandalism or not? Come on!
>
> I don't understand the urgency either. It's not like this guy is deleting
> half of the data. Let him do his thing for a while and then we'll perhaps
> have a clearer picture of what he's up to. He might even have answered an
> e-Mail by then. If people wouldn't get all upset and flap their wings like a
> bunch of hens then we could calmly investigate what is happening - and if we
> find that we want to remove his edits in a week or two, we can still do it.

That's why I say it is the worst form of vandalism. They "look" like
normal edits but it is done very shortly in different countries which
is also questionning about the source of the changes.
And about reverting, you mention yourself that reverting is more
complicated or even impossible if you wait too long.
And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins until a real
"revert in one click" is possible from the interface like in
wikipedia.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Pieren wrote:
> I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM
> if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks
> like the worst form of vandalism.

Comments like that are not helpful at all. If that's really your 
attitude then find yourself a tightly controlled, non-crowdsourced project.

What do you expect "the admins" to do? Drop their day job and chase 
after someone where even people on the mailing lists say they are not 
really sure if this is vandalism or not? Come on!

I don't understand the urgency either. It's not like this guy is 
deleting half of the data. Let him do his thing for a while and then 
we'll perhaps have a clearer picture of what he's up to. He might even 
have answered an e-Mail by then. If people wouldn't get all upset and 
flap their wings like a bunch of hens then we could calmly investigate 
what is happening - and if we find that we want to remove his edits in a 
week or two, we can still do it. Yes, it is always easier to undo a 
change when it is still fresh, but "shoot first, as questions later" is 
certainly not "the admins"' motto, and I am grateful for that.

Bye
Frederik



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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Pieren]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Larry O'Neill wrote:
> What Dermot is saying with regard to the edits this user made in
> Ireland is correct.
> This users editing was careless, ignorant, and whimsical. I have yet
> to decide if it was malicious.
> I think It may be a good idea to contact contributors in Iceland
> (where he has done more editing than elsewhere) to ask if his edits
> are justified, or as destructive as his edits in Ireland.
>
>
> Thanks
> Larry

I'm just questionning myself if I will continue to contribute to OSM
if the admins are not able to react faster to something which looks
like the worst form of vandalism.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] dissapearing country border

[mvrban]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:14:32 +0200, Stefan Baebler wrote:

> se most parts aren't disputed and in such cases the better
> source could probably be used. One is an import from wikimedia (with a
> note = rough estimate in some places, please refine)
> while the other one is imported from official Slovenian source
> (source=GURS). Later is probably better, but we don't want to force
> this down the throats of Croats. Of course they are welcome (and
> encouraged!) to reuse the acceptable parts of that border to refine
> their version of the border. It could also be interesting to get some
> official Croatian source imported to identify those disputes (and
> probably find some nice pockets of no man's land by the river :) )

Thats because it's sitll rendering at various zoom levels, i made border 
from wikimedia, shorty (2 days) after that slovenian friend uploaded GURS 
border, much precise from mine. Than I've deleted my rough border but i 
left disputed part on sea (Bay of Piran).

Pozdrav od mvrban


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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Larry O'Neill]

What Dermot is saying with regard to the edits this user made in
Ireland is correct.
This users editing was careless, ignorant, and whimsical. I have yet
to decide if it was malicious.
I think It may be a good idea to contact contributors in Iceland
(where he has done more editing than elsewhere) to ask if his edits
are justified, or as destructive as his edits in Ireland.


Thanks
Larry


On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Dermot McNally wrote:
> 2009/9/1 Lester Caine :
>
>> I was going to say - seconded but I think that some of the changes just
>> need cross referencing.
>
> I can't speak for his edits elsewhere (though some seem to have been
> at best incautious), but every _single_ change he made in Ireland (and
> there were many) was:
>
> a) wrong
> b) clearly completely uninformed
> c) not at all considered
> d) damaging
> e) troublesome to revert
>
> He doesn't even seem to know what side of the road we drive on...
>
> Add to this the fact that he has not responded to any message sent by
> other mappers. If an admin with access to his email address wishes to
> give him the benefit of the doubt on that one and try email, be my
> guest.
>
> But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage
> with community members.
>
> Action required.
>
> Dermot
>
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> --
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Erik Lundin]

Ed Avis skrev:
> I think it would be better to specify the model of GPS device you used, which
> can then be matched against a database of model quirks including such things
> as whether it undulates the geoid correctly.

This approach maybe would be useful to differentiate between tracks made 
with GPS devices and those (in the future) made with devices supporting 
the Galileo system. AFAIK Galileo will have a bit higher precision than GPS.

/Erik

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Dermot McNally]

2009/9/1 Lester Caine :

> I was going to say - seconded but I think that some of the changes just
> need cross referencing.

I can't speak for his edits elsewhere (though some seem to have been
at best incautious), but every _single_ change he made in Ireland (and
there were many) was:

a) wrong
b) clearly completely uninformed
c) not at all considered
d) damaging
e) troublesome to revert

He doesn't even seem to know what side of the road we drive on...

Add to this the fact that he has not responded to any message sent by
other mappers. If an admin with access to his email address wishes to
give him the benefit of the doubt on that one and try email, be my
guest.

But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage
with community members.

Action required.

Dermot

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Re: [OSM-talk] GPX tagging problem

[Ed Loach]

> Now that I know this, I'm trying to go back and re-tag some GPX
> tracks,
> but it keeps treating them as space-delimited instead of
> comma-delimited.  Is something wrong with the tag interpreter?

I had problems converting say "Little Clacton" into a single tag,
and solved it by tagging it as "Little Clacton," with the comma at
the end of the list (after someone suggested trying it on IRC).

Ed




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[OSM-talk] GPX tagging problem

[Alex Mauer]

On 09/01/2009 01:59 PM, Ed Loach wrote:
> I think you can already do this. When someone added the comma
> separator support recently I went through all my old traces adding
> the commas at appropriate places

Now that I know this, I'm trying to go back and re-tag some GPX tracks,
but it keeps treating them as space-delimited instead of
comma-delimited.  Is something wrong with the tag interpreter?

-Alex Mauer "hawke"



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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Alex Mauer]

On 09/01/2009 01:59 PM, Ed Loach wrote:
>> Two things that I think would be the most helpful, would be the
>> ability
>> to apply additional tags after the fact, 
> 
> I think you can already do this.

Ah, so you can.  I was only looking for edit links (which all went to
Potlatch) and assumed that the "Edit this track" button went to the same
place as all the edit links.

Perhaps this could be changed, so that it's more obvious what exactly is
being edited.

Thanks

-Alex Mauer "hawke"



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Re: [OSM-talk] GPS track upload working?

[Ed Avis]

The GPX track upload is working again now.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Ed Loach]

> Two things that I think would be the most helpful, would be the
> ability
> to apply additional tags after the fact, 

I think you can already do this. When someone added the comma
separator support recently I went through all my old traces adding
the commas at appropriate places, so "Little Clacton, Weeley" (as an
invented example) instead of "Little Clacton Weeley" - two tags
instead of three, and no fairly meaningless "Little" tag. 

Ed





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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Ed Avis]

Alex Mauer  hawkesnest.net> writes:

>Two things that I think would be the most helpful, would be the ability
>to apply additional tags after the fact,

+1

>and some sort of way of showing
>common already-used tags (e.g. a completion dropdown while typing a tag
>value)

That would be better than what we have now but if there were some one-line
help text (perhaps fetched from the wiki?) that would be even better.
E.g. 'foot' may be a common tag but does this mean that the track was produced
entirely on foot, or does it mean that at least some of it is?  Does it cover
any foot journey, even clambering over rocks, or is it only for well-maintained
and permissive paths?

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Alex Mauer]

On 09/01/2009 12:25 PM, Peter Körner wrote:
> I have not thought about adding that I used a bicycle for that. Without 
> having some kind of documentation about what *could* be added, people 
> won't add the information nor get developers to use them.
> 
> So maybe a documentation about the possibilities would be a better start.

Two things that I think would be the most helpful, would be the ability
to apply additional tags after the fact, and some sort of way of showing
common already-used tags (e.g. a completion dropdown while typing a tag
value)

-Alex Mauer "hawke"



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Re: [OSM-talk] Accidentally deleted the National Byway cycle route...

[wynndale]

> A fellow mapper has kindly informed me that my changeset 2315455
> appears to have deleted all the members from the National Byway cycle
> route.
>
> Unfortunately I am not sure how to revert this changeset; If anyone is
> able to revert this for me I would be most grateful.
>
According to
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network,
relation 32943was deleted a month ago and needs to be restored. Shouldn’t
it be easier for end users to restore relations quickly?





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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Lester Caine]

Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote:
>> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>>> Tom Hughes wrote:
 Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least
 some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being
 primary A roads with green signs).
>>>
>>> Indeed:
>>> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074
>>> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953
>>
>> Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing,
>> although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does
>> hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green
>> signs remain?
> 
> I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does
> not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed
> almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary
> route which means it will have green signs.

Actually Tom - even Traffic Scotland show the A816 as a simple A road
rather than a primary route. Although the section from the A85 down to
Oban does seem to be ambiguous. The rest of the route is not a green one
on their listings.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Local Chapters Mailling List

[Sam Vekemans]

Thanks,
I subscribed to the list.
I'm now working on a message to post, as my discussion (starter) is about
the FOSS /OSGeo aspect.

I added a note on the wiki in the mean time.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Local_Chapters#FOSS_.26_OSGeo_Connection

Cheers,
Sam

Twitter: @Acrosscanada
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans


On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Nick Black  wrote:

> Hello,
> A local chapters mailling list has been set up here:
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/admin/local-chapters
>
> The list will be used for all conversations about setting up local
> chapters.  There is also a different address lo...@osmfoundation.org that
> is an alias for the members of the local chapters working group.  Use 
> lo...@for any communications about meeting times or other administrative 
> things.
>  Keep most of the discussion to the public list.
>
> If you'd like to join in the debate, take a look at the local chapters wiki
> discussion page, which is here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Local_Chapters
>
>
> --
> Nick Black
> twitter.com/nick_b
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Peter Körner]

> I'm amazed that anyone experienced in OSM is proposing *not* using
> tags and getting the order of "usage (leads to) convention (leads to)
> documentation (leads to) presets" back to front - you don't start with
> presets in order to force convention.

I agree but until now I used the tags to tell in which cities I was 
(e.g. when riding by bike vrom Gau-Odernheim to Bechtolsheim I added 
both names as a Tag), because this way I could take a fast look onto 
anything that I altready did in e.g. Bechtolsheim.

I have not thought about adding that I used a bicycle for that. Without 
having some kind of documentation about what *could* be added, people 
won't add the information nor get developers to use them.

So maybe a documentation about the possibilities would be a better start.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/9/1 Ed Avis :
> Oh I see.  In that case, like geoid undulation, it is better to get the user 
> to
> specify the GPS device they used to make the trace.  If it's one that has a
> barometer, then prompt further:
>
>    ( )  Altimeter switched off
>    ( )  Altimeter on, but not calibrated recently
>    ( )  Altimeter on and calibrated
>    ( )  Don't know
>
> My device has an altimeter but I rarely calibrate it because I didn't realize
> altitude data was that useful for OSM.  However, a recent trip to Edinburgh
> (where there are lots of streets crossing above each other) has made the
> usefulness of 3D map data more apparent.

yes. The thing is, that even uncalibrated barometric data is more
useful, because the relative elevation differences still are more
precise than GPS.

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] Real world one-way stupidity

[Ed Avis]

This shows that keepright's one-way check isn't always correct:



I guess this is one of the roads here:
,
perhaps the Rue de Neuilly.  Would any Paris-based OSMers like to check and
tag it on the map?

Apparently the gridlock is going to be resolved soon, because the mayor of
Clichy-la-Garenne has been ordered to undo his one-way restriction.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Andy Allan]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Ed Avis wrote:

>>P.S. Currently there is a possibility to add "tags", but those are not
>>"predefined", there is no clear explanation how to use them etc.
>
> Exactly.  Saying 'just use tags' does not solve the problem.

Just use tags.

> There needs
> to be some agreed definition of what the tags mean, and a simple way for
> everyone to add them when uploading traces.

You can type tags into a box, that's a pretty simple way to add them

> I would suggest a series of checkboxes when uploading a trace file
>
>    * Method of transport used (tick all that apply)
>      [ ]  motorcar
>      [ ]  bicycle
>      [ ]  foot (along road / street)
>
> and so on.  These could be turned into tags for storage in the database, as 
> long
> as everyone agrees on what tags to use.

"As long as everyone agrees" aahahahahahaha

Anyway, you're going about it the wrong way. The way to come to
consensus about what tags people should use is to first build a
convention around using them. So you should think about consuming the
tags (e.g. colour highlighting anything tagged "car" in red in JOSM)
and then more people will tag them with the correct tags.

I'm amazed that anyone experienced in OSM is proposing *not* using
tags and getting the order of "usage (leads to) convention (leads to)
documentation (leads to) presets" back to front - you don't start with
presets in order to force convention.

Final comment - make an app to upload GPX traces to the API using
OAuth, and specify any tags you want using any interface you design.
Call it Awesome GPX uploader or make it a JOSM plugin or something.
I've even put some ruby scripts for uploading traces as one of the
OAuth examples at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OAuth/Examples

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Ed Avis]

Martin Koppenhoefer  gmail.com> writes:

>>>[ ] barometric elevation data
>>
>>Can't the presence of this data be seen by examining the GPX file to see if
>>there are  sub-elements inside each  element?

>but you don't know the source (barometric or gps)

Oh I see.  In that case, like geoid undulation, it is better to get the user to
specify the GPS device they used to make the trace.  If it's one that has a
barometer, then prompt further:

( )  Altimeter switched off
( )  Altimeter on, but not calibrated recently
( )  Altimeter on and calibrated
( )  Don't know

My device has an altimeter but I rarely calibrate it because I didn't realize
altitude data was that useful for OSM.  However, a recent trip to Edinburgh
(where there are lots of streets crossing above each other) has made the
usefulness of 3D map data more apparent.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/9/1 Ed Avis :
> Martin Simon  gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>I would suggest a series of checkboxes when uploading a trace file
>
>>[ ] barometric elevation data
>
> Can't the presence of this data be seen by examining the GPX file to see if
> there are  sub-elements inside each  element?  The user doesn't
> need to specify it manually.

but you don't know the source (barometric or gps)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Ed Avis]

Martin Simon  gmail.com> writes:

>>I would suggest a series of checkboxes when uploading a trace file

>[ ] barometric elevation data

Can't the presence of this data be seen by examining the GPX file to see if
there are  sub-elements inside each  element?  The user doesn't
need to specify it manually.

>[ ] no geoid undulation (common on cheap gps mice and mobile phones)

I think it would be better to specify the model of GPS device you used, which
can then be matched against a database of model quirks including such things
as whether it undulates the geoid correctly.  Because 90% of users (even on a
pretty technical site like osm.org) will have no idea what geoid undulation is
or whether their GPS device does it.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Tom Hughes]

On 01/09/09 16:23, Lester Caine wrote:
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> Tom Hughes wrote:
>>> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least
>>> some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being
>>> primary A roads with green signs).
>>
>> Indeed:
>> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074
>> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953
>
> Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing,
> although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does
> hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green
> signs remain?

I suspect whoever wrote that doesn't understand that de-trunking does 
not cause it to stop being a primary route. It may well have (indeed 
almost certainly has) been de-trunked but it is probably still a primary 
route which means it will have green signs.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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[OSM-talk] GPS track upload working?

[Ed Avis]

I recently tried to upload a GPX track (available for download as
) to the OSM website, but it
gets stuck on , showing a blank page,
and the track is not uploaded.

Is track upload working for other people?

-- 
Ed Avis 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Martin Simon]

2009/9/1 Ed Avis :

> I would suggest a series of checkboxes when uploading a trace file
>
>* Method of transport used (tick all that apply)
>  [ ]  motorcar
>  [ ]  bicycle
>  [ ]  foot (along road / street)

[ ] barometric elevation data
[ ] no geoid undulation (common on cheap gps mice and mobile phones)

In addition, it would be very cool if we would be able to get traces
including the elevation data. :-)

-Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Lester Caine]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Tom Hughes wrote:
>> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least 
>> some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being 
>> primary A roads with green signs).
> 
> Indeed:
> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074
> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953

Which would suggest that the changeset for this needs reversing,
although http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=A816 does
hint at the fact that it has been 'de-truncked' and that only some green
signs remain?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type

[Ed Avis]

Tomas Straupis  gmail.com> writes:

>It would be nice to be able
>specify how were those tracks recorded and for what purpose. Say:
>  * Motorcar
>  * Bicycle
>  * Foot (along road/street)
>  * Foot (along some feature (f.e. forest/woodland/lake/river bank/edge))
>  * Unclassified track (for tracks recorded with GPS switched on while

I completely agree.

>P.S. Currently there is a possibility to add "tags", but those are not
>"predefined", there is no clear explanation how to use them etc.

Exactly.  Saying 'just use tags' does not solve the problem.  There needs
to be some agreed definition of what the tags mean, and a simple way for
everyone to add them when uploading traces.

I would suggest a series of checkboxes when uploading a trace file

* Method of transport used (tick all that apply)
  [ ]  motorcar
  [ ]  bicycle
  [ ]  foot (along road / street)

and so on.  These could be turned into tags for storage in the database, as long
as everyone agrees on what tags to use.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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[OSM-talk] Isabela Mapping Marathon

[maning sambale]

Hi,

Within the coming months, we will be conducting a series of mapping
parties for several towns in Isabela, Philippines.
http://osm.org/go/42jO3Yy-

The grand goals are the following:
* To assist the Isabela LGUs in collecting geospatial data for the Province
* Teach local college students in data collection and editing
* Upload all data in Openstreetmap
* Prepare poster maps for each town

These areas are mostly rural, mountainous and the participants are
most likely unaware of Openstreetmap, GPS or even Google Map.  Each
mapping workshop will be two days, participants will be provided with
GPS units.  At the end of each day, all data will be compiled and
uploaded to OSM.

I need some tips/advice on how to run this event.
What materials should we prepare?
What concepts should we teach?
Worst case scenarios we should look out for?
etc.

The GPS units and laptops will be donated to the local university in
order to sustain map updates.  Through this project, we hope we can
plant the seed of OSM enthusiasm in the local community.

-- 
cheers,
maning
--
"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
--

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beach volleyball

[Matt Williams]

2009/9/1 Valent Turkovic :
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Craig Wallace wrote:
>> On 28/08/2009 10:12, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>>> Hi, I would like to know how to tag beach (sand) volleyball courts?
>>>
>>> I see nothing happening at proposed features page for this feature:
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/volleyball
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Valent.
>> I'd tag it something like this:
>>
>> leisure=pitch
>> sport=beach_volleyball
>> surface=sand
>
> JOSM complains that there is no "sport=beach_volleyball" tag.

It doesn't matter. Tag it as whatever you want.

-- 
Matt Williams
http://milliams.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beach volleyball

[Pieren]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote:
> So tag it sport=volleyball surface=sand then as we agreed previously :)
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.

Is it really the same sport "beach volley" and "volleyball" ? how many
"agreed" ? Does JOSM validator knows or is supposed to know all sports
around the world ?
Be aware that validator warnings are in many cases false positive.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Local Chapters Mailling List

[Jochen Topf]

On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 09:06:19AM +0100, Nick Black wrote:
> A local chapters mailling list has been set up here:
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/admin/local-chapters

The public interface where you can subscribe is here:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/local-chapters

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298


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Re: [OSM-talk] A tile that just won't update

[Andy Allan]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Shaun
McDonald wrote:

> Tweaking of the colours will fix the problem. It requires a lot of
> experimentation.

Tweaking the colours will mask the problem, not fix it, and it'll
still go wrong further down the line. The colour reduction on the
mapnik tiles is simply a Siren of the Greek Mythology type (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren ) - it works well for most cases,
seems like a good idea, and then breaks down horribly.

See also http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2212#comment:1

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beach volleyball

[Peteris Krisjanis]

2009/9/1 Valent Turkovic :
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Craig Wallace wrote:
>> On 28/08/2009 10:12, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>>> Hi, I would like to know how to tag beach (sand) volleyball courts?
>>>
>>> I see nothing happening at proposed features page for this feature:
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/volleyball
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Valent.
>> I'd tag it something like this:
>>
>> leisure=pitch
>> sport=beach_volleyball
>> surface=sand
>
> JOSM complains that there is no "sport=beach_volleyball" tag.
>

So tag it sport=volleyball surface=sand then as we agreed previously :)

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Richard Fairhurst]

Tom Hughes wrote:
> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least 
> some parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being 
> primary A roads with green signs).

Indeed:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/916074
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/144953

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/RR8---Possible-International-Vandal-%28assistance-required-in-various-countries%29-tp25230343p25237163.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Beach volleyball

[Valent Turkovic]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Craig Wallace wrote:
> On 28/08/2009 10:12, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>> Hi, I would like to know how to tag beach (sand) volleyball courts?
>>
>> I see nothing happening at proposed features page for this feature:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/volleyball
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Valent.
> I'd tag it something like this:
>
> leisure=pitch
> sport=beach_volleyball
> surface=sand

JOSM complains that there is no "sport=beach_volleyball" tag.

-- 
pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, msn: valent.turko...@hotmail.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Lester Caine]

Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 01/09/09 09:16, Lester Caine wrote:
> 
>> 2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route
>> which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except ->
>> I think that it would be useful to designate
>> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and
>> primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the
>> 'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the
>> A816 is 'non-primary'
> 
> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least some
> parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being primary A roads
> with green signs). Certainly four segments of the A816 are listed in the
> data Morwen got from the DfT describing the primary route network.

I think that probably highlights the point - what is the best REFERENCE
for this information?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Tom Hughes]

On 01/09/09 10:13, Lester Caine wrote:
> Tom Hughes wrote:
>> On 01/09/09 09:16, Lester Caine wrote:
>>
>>> 2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route
>>> which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except ->
>>> I think that it would be useful to designate
>>> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and
>>> primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the
>>> 'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the
>>> A816 is 'non-primary'
>>
>> Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least some
>> parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being primary A roads
>> with green signs). Certainly four segments of the A816 are listed in the
>> data Morwen got from the DfT describing the primary route network.
>
> I think that probably highlights the point - what is the best REFERENCE
> for this information?

Well in the absence of the DfT information, which was obtained under 
FOIA and is still copyright so can't be generally passed out, looking at 
the signs to see if they are white or green is the best solution!

Tom

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Tom Hughes]

On 01/09/09 09:16, Lester Caine wrote:

> 2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route
> which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except ->
> I think that it would be useful to designate
> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and
> primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the
> 'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the
> A816 is 'non-primary'

Unless something has changed in the last few years them at least some 
parts of the A816 are trunk (in the OSM sense of being primary A roads 
with green signs). Certainly four segments of the A816 are listed in the 
data Morwen got from the DfT describing the primary route network.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)

[Lester Caine]

Clifford Nolan wrote:
> Please stop this person from doing any more damage.  RR8 is still
> editing as I write - can the account be suspended a.s.a.p., please?

I was going to say - seconded but I think that some of the changes just
need cross referencing.

2326103 declassifies the A816 from a trunk route to a primary route
which CURRENTLY is probably correct ... except ->
I think that it would be useful to designate
http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk as a cross reference for the trunk and
primary designations - which then falls flat on it's face since the
'green' routes are classified as 'primary' as opposed to trunk but the
A816 is 'non-primary'

Without a clean method of identification some of these aspects are
subject to personal interpretation, but saber-roads would seem to
provide a clean list of Motorway - Green Route - Other A roads and B
roads - which fits nicely with the M,T,P and S levels on OSM.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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[OSM-talk] Local Chapters Mailling List

[Nick Black]

Hello,
A local chapters mailling list has been set up here:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/admin/local-chapters

The list will be used for all conversations about setting up local chapters.
 There is also a different address lo...@osmfoundation.org that is an alias
for the members of the local chapters working group.  Use local@ for any
communications about meeting times or other administrative things.  Keep
most of the discussion to the public list.

If you'd like to join in the debate, take a look at the local chapters wiki
discussion page, which is here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Local_Chapters


-- 
Nick Black
twitter.com/nick_b
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