Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Steve Bennett]

Same thing as a Tuk-Tuk (Thailand) or a moto-remorque (Cambodia)? If not the
same, close enough to be worth rendering the same?


> We also have tags for vegetarian/non-vegetarian - also useless outside
> India.


Hardly!


> So these things render on our server - but not on the official osm
> server.


If the data is stored centrally, it should be curated according to global
rules. Now, the only people participating in that curation might be from one
particular country, but I'm not sure that that changes anything.


> I see more of this to come. centralised data - local rendering. The
> autorickshaw tag works like this:
> amenity=taxi, vehicle=autorickshaw. This displays as a taxi stand on OSM,
> but
> as an autorickshaw stand on the Indian server.


Seems to me that what we want here are "global to local conversion tables"
of some kind. I need to read up on how to do this well. But basically, we
want to define the  equivalences between countries so that people can map in
a way that's intuitive to them locally, and get maps that render intuitively
for them.


> This may soon extend to roads
> also as our system of roads is very different to the English system - and
> makes
> a very awkward fit.


Right, but it's better if you can find a way of translating into "the
English system". Say there is an Indian concept of "local road". If you just
go around using "highway=local_road", then that means every style sheet
needs to be updated to have this rule added, and will soon become enormous.
It would be better to have a single table of "Indian rules", along the lines
of "highway=local_road --> highway=residential". That term might be more
intuitive and natural to the people using it, but it will ultimately be
rendered like a highway=residential.


> Another example is wells. man_made=well is an essential tag
> here - but probably not in Europe?


That doesn't seem to be an argument against storing the data in the central
database, nor against having support for it in the main renderers. What
exactly are you hinting at?

Steve
PS Don't forget to CC the mailing list, it's set to private reply by
default.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on Key:religion - Pastafarians

[John Smith]

2010/1/11 John F. Eldredge :
> The logical Pastafarian building would be a multilevel highway interchange, 
> with crisscrossing bridges, since a slang term for those (at least in the 
> USA) is "spaghetti junction".  If you have to cross one of those while it is 
> covered in ice, there is definitely some prayer taking place (although not 
> necessarily to His Noodly Majesty).

Jokes aside, this seems to be a non-issue blown up well out of
proportion, either there is a building and it can be tagged, or there
isn't a building and there is no need for a tag at this point in time.

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

> On Monday 11 Jan 2010 6:03:49 am Steve Bennett wrote:
> > For example, in this case, imagine that lots of people are using
> >  amenity=vet or service=veterinarian or something, which never gets
> >  supported. That's wasted effort, and may prevent someone else tagging
> >  those vets properly.
> >
>
> do not forget that there are a lot of sites rendering OSM data. What does
> not
> render in the official site may render in one of the local sites. I tag
> things
> that do not render in the official site but render in our own country
> specific
> site - or render differently in the country specific site.
>
>
Yep. But that's still no reason to tag the same thing in different ways. If
anything, it's a cause of the problem - we'd ideally like all tags
everywhere unified under one scheme.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on Key:religion - Pastafarians

[John F. Eldredge]

The logical Pastafarian building would be a multilevel highway interchange, 
with crisscrossing bridges, since a slang term for those (at least in the USA) 
is "spaghetti junction".  If you have to cross one of those while it is covered 
in ice, there is definitely some prayer taking place (although not necessarily 
to His Noodly Majesty).

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-Original Message-
From: John Smith 
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:17:26 
To: Aun Johnsen
Cc: OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on Key:religion - Pastafarians

2010/1/11 Aun Johnsen :
> The best political statement we can make is inclusionism. Include
> whatever in the database, so that everybody can do whatever they want
> with the map.

What I'm wondering is, where is a pastafarian building?

After all, I thought we were tagging what's on the ground?

If there is one, that should end all the discussion.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on Key:religion - Pastafarians

[John Smith]

2010/1/11 Aun Johnsen :
> The best political statement we can make is inclusionism. Include
> whatever in the database, so that everybody can do whatever they want
> with the map.

What I'm wondering is, where is a pastafarian building?

After all, I thought we were tagging what's on the ground?

If there is one, that should end all the discussion.

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Monday 11 Jan 2010 6:03:49 am Steve Bennett wrote:
> For example, in this case, imagine that lots of people are using
>  amenity=vet or service=veterinarian or something, which never gets
>  supported. That's wasted effort, and may prevent someone else tagging
>  those vets properly.
> 

do not forget that there are a lot of sites rendering OSM data. What does not 
render in the official site may render in one of the local sites. I tag things 
that do not render in the official site but render in our own country specific 
site - or render differently in the country specific site.
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Project Officer
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Joseph Reeves wrote:

> >The most important thing, imho, is that different people who set out to
> tag the same thing do it the same way.
>
> +1
>
> Which is why keep right! OSM Doc, tagstat, tagwatch, et al. are all so
> important.
>
>
Yes, but they should feed into a central process, rather than the current
mishmash of hoping that everyone will keep abreast of what everyone else is
doing somehow, which isn't working at all.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can someone suggest a OSM/nearmap-based route-plotting tool

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Craig Wallace  wrote:

> Most Garmins are limited to 500 points in a saved track. Though this is
> usually plenty, unless it is a rather long journey.
>

The newer ones, including mine, are 2000 I think.

>
> You could turn off autorouting. ie set it to "off road" instead of
> "follow road". Then it will just give you a straight line between the
> points in the route. With most Garmins, this works with up to 250 points
> in a route - its just "follow road" routing which is limited to 50 points.
>

Yeah, but then it's just like using a track...only more limited. :)


>
> Though I usually use "follow road" routing for (road) cycling, I find 50
> points is plenty for most journeys. You just need enough to make sure
> the Garmin calculates the route you want, ie one waypoint after each
> junction would work.
>

I tend to make very complicated routes. For example, I did a 75km ride on
Friday night which had something like 100 route points. If you want to see
some of the madness:
http://www.gpsies.com/map.do?fileId=blrsdvznawmtgohx


> This page has some more details of the pros and cons of tracks vs routes
> etc (specifically for cycling, but useful for other things):
> http://www.aukadia.net/gps/lwg_5.htm
>

Some interesting points in there.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Joseph Reeves]

>The most important thing, imho, is that different people who set out to tag 
>the same thing do it the same way.

+1

Which is why keep right! OSM Doc, tagstat, tagwatch, et al. are all so
important.

Cheers, Joseph




2010/1/11 Steve Bennett :
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Ulf Lamping 
> wrote:
>>
>> The first case is "just" garbage in the database - not nice but doesn't
>> really hurt. But how do you know that it will "never" get rendered?
>
> Obviously you'd only know retrospectively. But when I say that unrendered
> tags are harmful, I mean situations where there are multiple ways of tagging
> the same situation, and only some of them get rendered. The unsupported tags
> are worse than junk, and worse than nothing, because mappers will be misled
> into thinking that the thing has been tagged properly.
>
> For example, in this case, imagine that lots of people are using amenity=vet
> or service=veterinarian or something, which never gets supported. That's
> wasted effort, and may prevent someone else tagging those vets properly.
>
>>
>> However, "tagging for the renderer" will make existing data less
>> reliable: "is this really a beach or someone tagged their personal
>> playground to appear in yellow?". Bad!
>>
>
> At least it renders. :)
>
> I really do think it's time to address our processes here. The most
> important thing, imho, is that different people who set out to tag the same
> thing do it the same way. It doesn't matter all that much the tag is
> amenity=veterinarian or amenity=vet, but if both are used, that's bad. So
> the wiki should attempt to document and normalise usage of tags as soon as
> they appear. And people should make every attempt to follow that
> documentation. The relationship between tag usage, tag documentation, and
> support in mapnik/osmarender is a bit less clear, but should be talked
> about.
>
> Steve
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Ulf Lamping wrote:

> The first case is "just" garbage in the database - not nice but doesn't
> really hurt. But how do you know that it will "never" get rendered?
>

Obviously you'd only know retrospectively. But when I say that unrendered
tags are harmful, I mean situations where there are multiple ways of tagging
the same situation, and only some of them get rendered. The unsupported tags
are worse than junk, and worse than nothing, because mappers will be misled
into thinking that the thing has been tagged properly.

For example, in this case, imagine that lots of people are using amenity=vet
or service=veterinarian or something, which never gets supported. That's
wasted effort, and may prevent someone else tagging those vets properly.


> However, "tagging for the renderer" will make existing data less
> reliable: "is this really a beach or someone tagged their personal
> playground to appear in yellow?". Bad!
>
>
At least it renders. :)

I really do think it's time to address our processes here. The most
important thing, imho, is that different people who set out to tag the same
thing do it the same way. It doesn't matter all that much the tag is
amenity=veterinarian or amenity=vet, but if both are used, that's bad. So
the wiki should attempt to document and normalise usage of tags as soon as
they appear. And people should make every attempt to follow that
documentation. The relationship between tag usage, tag documentation, and
support in mapnik/osmarender is a bit less clear, but should be talked
about.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Joseph Reeves]

Of course those are all good points and I support your veterinary
efforts; sorry, I think I could have come across badly during my rant.
I was arguing against the idea that we should only record (wiki
approved) features that are going to appear in Mapnik/Osmarender
tiles.

In truth, of course, this doesn't have anything to do with your
perfectly reasonable suggestion that veterinaries are displayed on
osm.org, but as with the best discussions, it went off topic pretty
quick.

Cheers, Joseph



2010/1/11 Daniel Neugebauer :
> Personally I wouldn't care that much about whether something I enter into the
> database is going to be rendered on the official tiles or not; it's there and
> someone may use it some day. There are more use cases for the data in OSM than
> just being rendered to the usual "road maps". But in my case, I think it would
> be nice to have vets displayed, especially since that's a propsed feature that
> has been approved with 100% of the votes (but maybe simply noone was
> interested in voting against it) and already had an icon attached to it. (only
> as PNG, not SVG, though)
>
> As I'm new to (editing) OSM I only made a few edits yet, but I already
> included some invisible metadata, not caring whether it's currently going to
> be shown to web users or not. I know that OSM is more than just the tiles but
> vets for instance seem to be worthwhile although maybe not all too
> conventional POIs to render.
>
> Plus, if there's a visible feature, users may think "oh, but they forgot one"
> and start entering more (because: "Wow, they include such places? Cool!").
> That won't happen if it's completely invisible. Also, if these POIs are
> outdated, people who know about it and could fix it maybe simply wouldn't see
> it, so these nodes remain in the database.
>
> Bye,
> Daniel
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Daniel Neugebauer]

Personally I wouldn't care that much about whether something I enter into the 
database is going to be rendered on the official tiles or not; it's there and 
someone may use it some day. There are more use cases for the data in OSM than 
just being rendered to the usual "road maps". But in my case, I think it would 
be nice to have vets displayed, especially since that's a propsed feature that 
has been approved with 100% of the votes (but maybe simply noone was 
interested in voting against it) and already had an icon attached to it. (only 
as PNG, not SVG, though)

As I'm new to (editing) OSM I only made a few edits yet, but I already 
included some invisible metadata, not caring whether it's currently going to 
be shown to web users or not. I know that OSM is more than just the tiles but 
vets for instance seem to be worthwhile although maybe not all too 
conventional POIs to render.

Plus, if there's a visible feature, users may think "oh, but they forgot one" 
and start entering more (because: "Wow, they include such places? Cool!"). 
That won't happen if it's completely invisible. Also, if these POIs are 
outdated, people who know about it and could fix it maybe simply wouldn't see 
it, so these nodes remain in the database.

Bye,
Daniel

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 11.01.2010 00:54, schrieb Steve Bennett:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Joseph Reeves  > wrote:
>
>  >You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't
> know if it's worth using a tag because you don't know if it will
> ever be implemented.
>
> But now you're just mapping for the renderer.
>
>
> Not by the usual interpretation of the phrase "tagging for the
> renderer", as has been discussed several times recently. Using a tag
> that will never be recognised by any software is (I think) at least as
> bad as abusing a tag so it will be treated in some way by some currently
> existing software. There's a balance between the two, and tagging in
> total ignorance of software support is not a good strategy.

Just let me explain why these have different consequences.

The first case is "just" garbage in the database - not nice but doesn't 
really hurt. But how do you know that it will "never" get rendered? 
There are currently more and more specialised maps appearing, so chances 
are that reasonable tags (and amenity=veterinary is reasonable IMHO) 
will get rendered one day.

I'm not talking about "amenity=this is a nice hotel I've visited in june 
or so" - which will probably never get rendered ;-)


However, "tagging for the renderer" will make existing data less 
reliable: "is this really a beach or someone tagged their personal 
playground to appear in yellow?". Bad!


Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Lennard]

Daniel Neugebauer wrote:

> I will look into Mapnik as well if there's also nothing in progress already.

There is no ticket, open or closed, for mapnik regarding veterinaries.

-- 
Lennard

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Joseph Reeves]

>The only real issue here is that "voted on" tags are taking a long time to get 
>implemented in Osmarender, and we should help the developers to reduce this.

But as we've seen (and as you're discussing elsewhere), this is only
the real issue if you see Osmarender/Mapnik as the only outputs of
mapping effort. As Patrick described above, "approved tags" are voted
into the wiki, not the two renderers on osm.org.

>Using a tag that will never be recognised by any software is (I think) at 
>least as bad as abusing a tag so it will be treated in some way by some 
>currently existing software.

This is the chicken and egg situation that you're trying to impose,
but it's not how OSM seems to work in real life. We don't add features
to the database because they'll look nice on the osm.org homepage,
instead the renderer is tweaked to match the state of the database. If
you were really concerned that veterinaries weren't appearing on the
osm.org page you could create openvetmap.org and host your own
renderer and custom rules. It's that ability, not the tiles on
osm.org, that make this project so worthwhile.

The "real issue" as far as I'm concerned is that far too many people
think that osm.org _is_ OpenStreetMap and tag/vote/map/moan
accordingly.

Cheers, Joseph



2010/1/10 Steve Bennett :
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Joseph Reeves 
> wrote:
>>
>> >You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't know if
>> > it's worth using a tag because you don't know if it will ever be
>> > implemented.
>>
>> But now you're just mapping for the renderer.
>
> Not by the usual interpretation of the phrase "tagging for the renderer", as
> has been discussed several times recently. Using a tag that will never be
> recognised by any software is (I think) at least as bad as abusing a tag so
> it will be treated in some way by some currently existing software. There's
> a balance between the two, and tagging in total ignorance of software
> support is not a good strategy.
>
> Anyway, as this is a recurring debate with no consensus, I think I'll leave
> it there. The only real issue here is that "voted on" tags are taking a long
> time to get implemented in Osmarender, and we should help the developers to
> reduce this.
>
> Steve
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Erik Johansson]

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Patrick Kilian  wrote:
>>
>> If enough flying rhinoceros' are mapped I'll add it to osmarender. The
>> interesting part here is the "enough".
>
> If this is the standard process, could it be documented? It's extremely
> unclear at the moment what the process is for getting new tags supported.
> You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't know if
> it's worth using a tag because you don't know if it will ever be
> implemented.

Do you know what it takes to implement a tag? I would say Patricks
description is pretty good, but he is part of the "everyone hates the
wiki camp" among some other prominent figures here. It's just an
opinion not a fact, the wiki does matter.


>>As you can see the wiki doesn't play a role in this decision.
>
> And if *that* is the case, that should definitely be documented, and the
> whole voting process abandoned as a distracting waste of time.

You see, that sentiment is why "wiki wankers should be banned111!!1"
is a bad meme. This is actively destroying the database, because no
one will discuss what goes into the database and that's bad.  The wiki
is the most important part of Openstreetmap, e.g. after mapfeatures
was posted on the wiki, usage of the highway tag soared.

I actually like the idea behind tagstats, tagwatch and osmdoc.
http://tagstat.hypercube.telascience.org/ http://osmdoc.com/en/

I think it's worth the money to get these tools very good servers, to
get them to run fast. But the wiki is still more important.

-- 
/emj

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Daniel Neugebauer]

Hi!

Sorry if I opened old wounds by asking; I couldn't find anything about the 
current status, that's why I asked. As a newbie to OSM it seemed strange that 
an approved proposal has an icon attached but noone ever mentioned it again.

It's good to know that nothing has been done yet to include it into the 
renderer. If there would have been some work I would probably have duplicated 
that for nothing. I'll have a look at the stylesheets and submit a patch for 
them.

I will look into Mapnik as well if there's also nothing in progress already.

If a flying rhino falls from the sky it surely needs to know where to find a 
vet. ;)

Bye,
Daniel

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Joseph Reeves wrote:

> >You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't know if
> it's worth using a tag because you don't know if it will ever be
> implemented.
>
> But now you're just mapping for the renderer.


Not by the usual interpretation of the phrase "tagging for the renderer", as
has been discussed several times recently. Using a tag that will never be
recognised by any software is (I think) at least as bad as abusing a tag so
it will be treated in some way by some currently existing software. There's
a balance between the two, and tagging in total ignorance of software
support is not a good strategy.

Anyway, as this is a recurring debate with no consensus, I think I'll leave
it there. The only real issue here is that "voted on" tags are taking a long
time to get implemented in Osmarender, and we should help the developers to
reduce this.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tag voting/rendering process (was Re: no rendering of amenity=veterinary)

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Roy Wallace  wrote:

> > I would have said it's something like
> > "to establish that the tag is part of the official OSM tag set" or
> > something.  And once established, it should be rendered (or explicitly
> not
> > rendered, if inappropriate) by the official OSM renderers/stylesheets...
>
> So... it should be rendered... or not rendered... OK then.
>

If I was unclear, my apologies - you could politely have requested
clarification.

I'm thinking of cases where an "official OSM renderer/stylesheet" (not that
we have defined what they are) deliberately doesn't render certain tags due
to its intended purpose: a bike map might not render car parks, for
instance. That's different from a renderer failing to render a tag simply
because it isn't implemented.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tag voting/rendering process (was Re: no rendering of amenity=veterinary)

[Roy Wallace]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>
> To establish whether it's "a useful way"? Nah, the process must have a
> stronger outcome or it's pointless.

Or, if you like, to establish whether it's the *best* way to model it
in the OSM database. I entirely disagree that that's "pointless".

> I would have said it's something like
> "to establish that the tag is part of the official OSM tag set" or
> something.  And once established, it should be rendered (or explicitly not
> rendered, if inappropriate) by the official OSM renderers/stylesheets...

So... it should be rendered... or not rendered... OK then.

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[OSM-talk] Tag voting/rendering process (was Re: no rendering of amenity=veterinary)

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Roy Wallace  wrote:

>
> There's a difference between establishing that a tag is 1) a useful
> way to model some aspect of physical reality, and 2) that it should
> show up in a particular renderer.
>
> Use a tag if it is 1). If you want 2), that's a separate issue.
>
>>As you can see the wiki doesn't play a role in this decision.

> >
> > And if *that* is the case, that should definitely be documented, and the
> > whole voting process abandoned as a distracting waste of time.
>
> The wiki/voting process is to establish whether or not the tag is 1).
>

To establish whether it's "a useful way"? Nah, the process must have a
stronger outcome or it's pointless. I would have said it's something like
"to establish that the tag is part of the official OSM tag set" or
something.  And once established, it should be rendered (or explicitly not
rendered, if inappropriate) by the official OSM renderers/stylesheets...

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can someone suggest a OSM/nearmap-based route-plotting tool

[Craig Wallace]

On 10/01/2010 22:12, Steve Bennett wrote:
>
> Track:
> - WYSIWYG (the track on the gps is exactly what you created on the computer)
> - totally independent of map data quality
> - Can be as long and complicated as you like

Most Garmins are limited to 500 points in a saved track. Though this is 
usually plenty, unless it is a rather long journey.

> Route:
> - Gives better instructions ("left at the next roundabout") etc
> - Easier to create and manage
>
> I tried both this weekend and found routes weren't reliable enough.
> Sometimes you'd get a "route calculation error". Also, my GPS doesn't
> support routes with more than 50 waypoints. It seems a lot simpler just
> to create a track and be done with it.

You could turn off autorouting. ie set it to "off road" instead of 
"follow road". Then it will just give you a straight line between the 
points in the route. With most Garmins, this works with up to 250 points 
in a route - its just "follow road" routing which is limited to 50 points.

Though I usually use "follow road" routing for (road) cycling, I find 50 
points is plenty for most journeys. You just need enough to make sure 
the Garmin calculates the route you want, ie one waypoint after each 
junction would work.
Though, yes it does need good mapping data to work properly. So its a 
good way to find errors in the OSM maps anyway.

This page has some more details of the pros and cons of tracks vs routes 
etc (specifically for cycling, but useful for other things): 
http://www.aukadia.net/gps/lwg_5.htm

Craig
(sorry for the duplicate message, forgot to send it to the list)

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Joseph Reeves]

>You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't know if it's 
>worth using a tag because you don't know if it will ever be implemented.

But now you're just mapping for the renderer. Regardless of whether or
not Veterinaries get rendered, you should map them if you see them;
it's the database that's important, not the (albeit) pretty pictures.
Veterinaries, and other unrendered features, also provide the
opportunity to add other data to the map, house numbers and post codes
for example.

Cheers, Joseph




2010/1/10 Steve Bennett :
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Patrick Kilian  wrote:
>>
>> If enough flying rhinoceros' are mapped I'll add it to osmarender. The
>> interesting part here is the "enough".
>
> If this is the standard process, could it be documented? It's extremely
> unclear at the moment what the process is for getting new tags supported.
> You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't know if
> it's worth using a tag because you don't know if it will ever be
> implemented.
>
>>As you can see the wiki doesn't play a role in this decision.
>
> And if *that* is the case, that should definitely be documented, and the
> whole voting process abandoned as a distracting waste of time.
>
> Usage does
>>
>> but, your 835 rhinos are not yet enough to me invest my rare spare time.
>> I currently have 106 features with more then 1000 uses which are not
>> rendered by osmarender, 38 open trac tickets and two other projects
>> (tagstat and mobilemap) to take care of. Oh, and don't forget my diploma
>> thesis which is due in February.
>
> So you're overworked. How can we help?
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Roy Wallace]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>
> If this is the standard process, could it be documented? It's extremely
> unclear at the moment what the process is for getting new tags supported.
> You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't know if
> it's worth using a tag because you don't know if it will ever be
> implemented.

There's a difference between establishing that a tag is 1) a useful
way to model some aspect of physical reality, and 2) that it should
show up in a particular renderer.

Use a tag if it is 1). If you want 2), that's a separate issue.

>>As you can see the wiki doesn't play a role in this decision.
>
> And if *that* is the case, that should definitely be documented, and the
> whole voting process abandoned as a distracting waste of time.

The wiki/voting process is to establish whether or not the tag is 1).

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Frederik Ramm]

Patrick,

> Yes amenity=veterinary sounds good. Existing icons sound good too. About
> 1000 are even better. But don't hold your breath for this to appear on
> osmarender. If you really want or need it to render please do as much as
> possible of the following:

Why the list. Everyone can modify the Osmarender style sheets 
themselves, try it out on their local machine, then check it in to SVN. 
Unlike the Mapnik styles, the Osmarender styles are not centrally 
managed so the first time you even hear about it is when the rhinoceri 
(?) fly across the map at Z12 ;-)

And if someone doesn't know how to do it, they could still ask someone 
else to help them.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> So you're overworked. How can we help?
>
>
Oops, missed point 6.

Ok, so how about this: proposals for new tags should include patches for
OSMarender and Mapnik. Seem reasonable?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Patrick Kilian  wrote:

> If enough flying rhinoceros' are mapped I'll add it to osmarender. The
> interesting part here is the "enough".
>

If this is the standard process, could it be documented? It's extremely
unclear at the moment what the process is for getting new tags supported.
You currently have this chicken-and-egg situation where you don't know if
it's worth using a tag because you don't know if it will ever be
implemented.

>As you can see the wiki doesn't play a role in this decision.

And if *that* is the case, that should definitely be documented, and the
whole voting process abandoned as a distracting waste of time.

Usage does

> but, your 835 rhinos are not yet enough to me invest my rare spare time.
> I currently have 106 features with more then 1000 uses which are not
> rendered by osmarender, 38 open trac tickets and two other projects
> (tagstat and mobilemap) to take care of. Oh, and don't forget my diploma
> thesis which is due in February.
>

So you're overworked. How can we help?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on Key:religion - Pastafarians

[Aun Johnsen]

The best political statement we can make is inclusionism. Include
whatever in the database, so that everybody can do whatever they want
with the map.
On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
> Gervase Markham  writes:
>
>> On 06/01/10 19:40, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>> 2010/1/6 Greg Troxel mailto:g...@ir.bbn.com>>
>>>
>>>     We should remember that the purpose of maps is to represent reality to
>>>     map users, not to make political points.
>>>
>>> says who? Maps have always and in all ages been means of politics...
>>
>> Perhaps Greg was trying to say that, in his opinion, OSM should (as far
>> as possible) not be used to make political points.
>
> Yes, that's what I meant.  I realize people try to do political things
> with maps, but in something like OSM that isn't anything to be proud of.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can someone suggest a OSM/nearmap-based route-plotting tool

[Steve Bennett]

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Andrew Errington <
a.erring...@lancaster.ac.uk> wrote:

>
> I don't know what a "course" is, and I haven't looked.
>

Courses are supported by training/racing-oriented Garmin devices and add
timing information, to allow better time estimates, and to give the user a
target time.

http://wiki.motionbased.com/mb/Courses


>
> In summary, if you want to go somewhere with the GPS then plot the route
> on your map and make a GPX file containing a "route".  Download the route
> to the GPS and it should do the rest.
>
>
Yeah, though that relies on the data being fully routable. It seems the
trade-off is:

Track:
- WYSIWYG (the track on the gps is exactly what you created on the computer)
- totally independent of map data quality
- Can be as long and complicated as you like

Route:
- Gives better instructions ("left at the next roundabout") etc
- Easier to create and manage

I tried both this weekend and found routes weren't reliable enough.
Sometimes you'd get a "route calculation error". Also, my GPS doesn't
support routes with more than 50 waypoints. It seems a lot simpler just to
create a track and be done with it.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Patrick Kilian]

Hi,

please not that I speak only for osmarender as other renderers are
maintained by other people.

The following is basically a rant. So don't get mad at me or take
the following personally.



You mapped something? great
You checked the wiki for tags to model the reality with? ok
You whine about the tag not beeing rendered? Not so good.

To be very explicit about it: I don't like the wiki or the concept of
"approved tags". If I find a flying rhinoceros I'll map it as
animal=rhinoceros flying=yes and won't give a damn what the wikifiddlers
say.

If enough flying rhinoceros' are mapped I'll add it to osmarender. The
interesting part here is the "enough".

If I have to design an icon, write complex rules and to lots of stuff to
make i render it is going to take quite a few rhinoceros' before I
invest the time to make it render.

If somebody designs an icon for me and all I have to do is add three
lines to the stylesheet for z17, it takes way less rhinos' to make me do
the work.

If somebody sends me a complete patch it will take me about five
odd-toed ungulates to accept that patch. (Assuming the patch doesn't try
to use tomatoes=green for tagging rhinos.)

As you can see the wiki doesn't play a role in this decision. Usage does
but, your 835 rhinos are not yet enough to me invest my rare spare time.
I currently have 106 features with more then 1000 uses which are not
rendered by osmarender, 38 open trac tickets and two other projects
(tagstat and mobilemap) to take care of. Oh, and don't forget my diploma
thesis which is due in February.

So all that is preventing the new rhino to be rendered is lack of spare
time and lack of people helping.




Yes amenity=veterinary sounds good. Existing icons sound good too. About
1000 are even better. But don't hold your breath for this to appear on
osmarender. If you really want or need it to render please do as much as
possible of the following:

1.) open a trac ticket with component=osmarender
2.) include one or two link to places where it is used
3.) link to the icon file
4.) determine which zoom levels need to render this
5.) attach the icon as an SVG file 16x16 pixel in size
6.) create a patch adding the rules to all the zoomlevels from step #4



Patrick "Petschge" Kilian

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[OSM-talk] no rendering of amenity=veterinary

[Daniel Neugebauer]

Hi!

I recently added a veterinary to OSM by setting amenity=veterinary as approved 
in August 2008; see: 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Veterinary

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dveterinary

Unfortunately, veterinaries are not yet being rendered by Osmarender or 
Mapnik. The proposal contained a paw icon to be rendered, whereas a different 
icon was proposed on the same wiki page by Ulfl:

http://www.gpsdrive.de/development/map-icons/classic.big/health/veterinary.png

The second icon is also used by JOSM and commonly used in Germany (a V for 
veterinary (?) and a rod of Asclepius).


Are there any plans for including vet support in terms of an icon on the 
official maps? It has been over a year since the proposal was approved and I 
couldn't find anything new about its progress for being supported by Mapnik or 
Osmarender. Is there anything that prevents adding an icon?


If rendered, an icon should be shown e.g. there: (node 603392630, not visible 
on current tiles)

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.43027&lon=13.2372&zoom=17&layers=B000FTF


According to http://osmdoc.com/en/tag/amenity/veterinary there are currently 
835 global nodes with amenity=veterinary; adding rendering support could be 
useful.


By the way, I think emergency=yes|no could also make sense on 
amenity=veterinary but I don't know if that's something that should be 
rendered as well (currently only 3 nodes use that unapproved tag). It's not 
yet in the wiki for veterinaries but for hospitals. However, a proposal for 
different hospital icons has been abandoned, but I wanted to point out that 
possibility if someone is going to implement the missing rendering of 
veterinaries anyway (see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hospital:_Emergency ).

Bye,
Daniel

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on Key:religion - Pastafarians

[Greg Troxel]

Gervase Markham  writes:

> On 06/01/10 19:40, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> 2010/1/6 Greg Troxel mailto:g...@ir.bbn.com>>
>> 
>> We should remember that the purpose of maps is to represent reality to
>> map users, not to make political points.
>> 
>> says who? Maps have always and in all ages been means of politics...
>
> Perhaps Greg was trying to say that, in his opinion, OSM should (as far
> as possible) not be used to make political points.

Yes, that's what I meant.  I realize people try to do political things
with maps, but in something like OSM that isn't anything to be proud of.


pgpKgJ5Qyqf8G.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] New "Highways" view in OSM Inspector

[Mike N.]

> Actually several of the Australian borders were drawn up on paper but
> the physical border differs because of miscalculation when surveyed,
> they just found out that the angle along NT/Qld borders differs in the
> direction they went north, so they'll probably update the paper maps,
> they said they have no plans to shift it.

  I just surveyed a bunch of roads in rural Illinois, and the Tiger data is 
all off by 20-30 meters.   The Tiger data seems to have been defined using 
math from the original survey, and does not even include the doglegs where 
adjoining townships meet.This error is related to the distance from the 
original chain survey from the baseline and meridian lines in Illinois.   A 
famous set of survey doglegs is North Avenue (Rt 64) near Chicago -

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.9099&lon=-87.74514&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF

  The north and south streets don't match.

  All this from the region where the surveyors produced "Lake Wobegone" 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegone
 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Unions seem to be complaining about potential joblosses if OS data is given away for free..

[Aun Johnsen]

Phill, thanks for the correction, when having 3 languages it is easy
to mix something

Sorry, didn't read the article, tough luck for the sales people that
somebody have been able to see through the scam and stopped them. If
their jobs goes there are probably other places thay can sell
stuff.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Barnett, Phillip
 wrote:
> dusin -> dozen
>
> Obligatory disclaimer - Your English is MUCH, MUCH better than my Portuguese 
> is.
>
> :-)
>
>
>
>
> PHILLIP BARNETT
> SERVER MANAGER
>
> 200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
> LONDON
> WC1X 8XZ
> UNITED KINGDOM
> T +44 (0)20 7430 4474
> F
> E phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk
> http://WWW.ITN.CO.UK
> P  Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email?
> -Original Message-
>
> From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] 
> On Behalf Of Aun Johnsen
> Sent: 10 January 2010 09:39
> To: OpenStreetMap
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Unions seem to be complaining about potential job 
> losses if OS data is given away for free..
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Nic Roets  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 6:41 AM, Stefan de Konink  wrote:
>>>
>>> Op 10-01-10 05:30, John Smith schreef:
>>> >
>>> > http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4826436.New_threat_to_jobs_at_Southampton_s_Ordnance_Survey/
>>>
>>> Sounds like the OS didn't have a R&D department nor a business
>>> department.
>>
>> To me it sounds like the reverse: The people who come up with the different
>> fee structures, licensing categories and enforcement thereof will be first
>> to go.
>>
>> The surveyors and cartographers will still have their jobs as roads continue
>> changing and GPS gets new applications like road pricing.
>>
> In my line of work we use a lot of surveyors, and our industry have
> been constantly growing, and even continued to grow through the
> economic crisis, though the area of focus have changed.
>
> I am talking about the oil industry. There are at least a dusin
> companies with large offshore survey departments, and even though the
> work might be outside the UK, they still recruite a lot of brittish
> surveyors. Almost everything in the oil industry is international. I
> have worked alongside surveyors from 3 different countries in one
> location (there where 4 surveyors in total ther), and none of them
> where performing work in their home country.
>
> So complaining about potential job loss in one company shows either
> lack of knowledge, or lack of competence. It is the latter than we are
> better off without them.
>
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[OSM-talk] Problem rendering Lake Falcon

[Peter Herison]

Hi

Anybody see the error at "Falcon Lake" preventing Mapnik
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=26.5924&lon=-99.1976&zoom=14&layers=B000FTF)
and Osmarender
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=26.7685&lon=-99.23&zoom=12&layers=0B00FTF)
from rendering the lake correctly?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Unions seem to be complaining about potential job losses if OS data is given away for free..

[John Smith]

2010/1/10 Aun Johnsen :
> So complaining about potential job loss in one company shows either
> lack of knowledge, or lack of competence. It is the latter than we are
> better off without them.

The complaints about job losses is sales staff since the data may be
given away there will be less need for that many sales people.

Which is questionable logic since the tax payers funded the data in
the first place those sales positions are lucky to exist to begin with
because the data wasn't given back to the tax payers.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unions seem to be complaining about potential job losses if OS data is given away for free..

[Aun Johnsen]

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Nic Roets  wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 6:41 AM, Stefan de Konink  wrote:
>>
>> Op 10-01-10 05:30, John Smith schreef:
>> >
>> > http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4826436.New_threat_to_jobs_at_Southampton_s_Ordnance_Survey/
>>
>> Sounds like the OS didn't have a R&D department nor a business
>> department.
>
> To me it sounds like the reverse: The people who come up with the different
> fee structures, licensing categories and enforcement thereof will be first
> to go.
>
> The surveyors and cartographers will still have their jobs as roads continue
> changing and GPS gets new applications like road pricing.
>
In my line of work we use a lot of surveyors, and our industry have
been constantly growing, and even continued to grow through the
economic crisis, though the area of focus have changed.

I am talking about the oil industry. There are at least a dusin
companies with large offshore survey departments, and even though the
work might be outside the UK, they still recruite a lot of brittish
surveyors. Almost everything in the oil industry is international. I
have worked alongside surveyors from 3 different countries in one
location (there where 4 surveyors in total ther), and none of them
where performing work in their home country.

So complaining about potential job loss in one company shows either
lack of knowledge, or lack of competence. It is the latter than we are
better off without them.

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