Re: [OSM-talk] New user mistakenly nuking things

[Toby Murray]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:
>
> Show him some of the existing alternative renderings, like
> opencyclemap and wheelmap.org.  Also the University of Maryland
> pedestrian map.
>
> http://www.map.umd.edu/map/#
>
> Then have a look at the route filters. ;-)

Unfortunately wheelmap is kind of sub-optimal for things like a
university campus. They ignore building=entrance nodes and focus
primarily on individual amenity nodes and (maybe?) entire buildings.
Well virtually every building on campus is "wheelchair accessible" (by
law) but the buildings are often quite large and may only have one or
two accessible entrances which are often hidden away at the back of
the building because the building was designed in the late 1800s when
they thought it would be just grand to have huge sets of stairs
leading up to the main building entrances. So just saying "the
building is accessible" means nothing. Users want to know which
entrance to go to.

Now the UMD map indeed handy and I plan on showing that off if they
ever ask me to another meeting about maps. :) The project to replace
the campus map is a low priority right now so I'm not holding my
breath.

I did however whip this up in about an hour using Maperitive and he is
definitely interested:
http://shannon.telecom.ksu.edu/~toby/images/map1.png
(gripe: Maperitive doesn't put attribution on generated map images!)

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] New user mistakenly nuking things

[Richard Weait]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
> Well I just went ahead and did it with the JOSM plugin. I think the
> desired effect was achieved.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6922696
>
> Turns out he thought he was just making changes to a local copy of the
> data but was actually uploading the changes to the server. The
> changeset tags indicate he was using mapzen beta. Does that have
> offline .osm editing capabilities?
>
> The project is to make a map that will be useful to disabled
> individuals at Kansas State University.

Show him some of the existing alternative renderings, like
opencyclemap and wheelmap.org.  Also the University of Maryland
pedestrian map.

http://www.map.umd.edu/map/#

Then have a look at the route filters. ;-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 26

[John Smith]

On 10 January 2011 02:04, Richard Welty  wrote:
> not just in theory: George Washington Bridge, connecting NYC with
> New Jersey. and it's not a minor bridge, it is rather a pretty significant
> one in the traffic grid.
>
> so you can't really dismiss the case as purely theoretical.

Is this another case of you trying to encourage tagging everything
instead of just the exceptions?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Landsat WMS is dead

[Komяpa]

Hi,

2011/1/10 Stephan Knauss :
> On 10.01.2011 00:10, Vincent Pottier wrote:
>>
>> In JOSM I use
>> Landsat (mirroir) wms:http://irs.gis-lab.info/?layers=landsat&;
>
> that returnes totally blurred images when compared to the original ones.
Could you please give an example? I didn't find one when was setting
this up, and didn't use it since that moment.

Tried it now, and it works more-or-less for me.

> I thought it could be an issue with resizing the pictures before delivering.
That thing is trying to follow "tiled wms" spec when asking from NASA's service.
Unfortunately there's no useful spec around the web and was no real
way to check whether I got it correct or made mistakes, as incorrect
tiled request might be a correct non-tiled request and still return an
image.

> Even tried to contact the guys running it with out success.
Which one? If you're talking about me / irs.gis-lab.info, feel free to
ping me to m...@komzpa.net or on IRC.
If you're talking about landsat server admin, his e-mail was on
GetCapabilities of that WMS.


> As landsat was workign fine after a while I did not follow up on this. Looks
> like now it's a bit late, they shut the WMS down.
Landsat was never working fine. As their server admin noticed, the
whole thing was served from single P4-like machine that was dying from
WMS requests from all over the web.

-- 
Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski
OSM BY Team
xmpp:m...@komzpa.net mailto:m...@komzpa.net

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Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim

[Daniel Kastl]

2011/1/10 Elizabeth Dodd 

> On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 20:15:46 +0100
> M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> > 2011/1/9 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) :
> > > I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be
> > > tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The
> > > problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street).
> > > 1) We don't have names for living streets
> >
> >
> > are you sure you are talking about living streets or do you mean
> > residential streets?
> >
> >
> > > 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or
> > > hamlet)
> >
> >
> > locality should be used for uninhabited places
> >
> >
> > sorry, that I cannot help you with your original problem.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Martin
> >
>
> Martin's reply highlights a problem with the eurocentric version of a
> place hierarchy in OSM - it doesn't fit India.
>

Not only India, also other countries such as Japan have a block address
system, which for example doesn't match with how openaddresses collects data
at the moment.
Here some good explanation: http://sivers.org/jadr

Such a block address system actually has some advantages as well. You don't
have to know the house number to be able to know about where the address is
located. You can take the center point of the block polygon as well and it
will usually be a good approach. With long streets this is usually not
possible.

Daniel




>
> ___
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>



-- 
Georepublic UG & Georepublic Japan
eMail: daniel.ka...@georepublic.de
Web: http://georepublic.de
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Re: [OSM-talk] New user mistakenly nuking things

[Toby Murray]

Well I just went ahead and did it with the JOSM plugin. I think the
desired effect was achieved.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6922696

Turns out he thought he was just making changes to a local copy of the
data but was actually uploading the changes to the server. The
changeset tags indicate he was using mapzen beta. Does that have
offline .osm editing capabilities?

The project is to make a map that will be useful to disabled
individuals at Kansas State University. He wants to add information
about stops that the Disabled student services bus makes but he thinks
this may not be appropriate for adding to the OSM database because it
isn't really a public service. Hence he was trying to edit data
locally to add these stops and remove nodes that he doesn't want
rendered (like recycling bins and bicycle parking). I Think I will
work with him to come up with a custom Maperitive ruleset to get what
he wants. At least for starters. It seems like a pretty easy rendering
setup for someone who isn't an IT professional. Ideally I could
convince my university to use OSM for the official campus map (I'm
trying to do this) and then the disability amenities could be one of
several available layers on the official campus slippy map. It's good
to have a dream, right?

Thanks for the advice.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Landsat WMS is dead

[Chris Browet]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 23:13, Stephan Knauss  wrote:

> They suggest to use tiled WMS.
>

Unfortunately, they decided to create their own extension for a "tiled WMS"
(i.e. not WMS-C nor TMS)  which, AFAIK, they are alone to use.
It makes it a bit pointless for developers to support it

Just out of curiosity, where is Landsat more detailed than Bing or Yahoo?

- Chris -
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Re: [OSM-talk] Landsat WMS is dead

[Stephan Knauss]

On 10.01.2011 00:10, Vincent Pottier wrote:

In JOSM I use
Landsat (mirroir) wms:http://irs.gis-lab.info/?layers=landsat&;


that returnes totally blurred images when compared to the original ones. 
I thought it could be an issue with resizing the pictures before 
delivering. Even tried to contact the guys running it with out success.


As landsat was workign fine after a while I did not follow up on this. 
Looks like now it's a bit late, they shut the WMS down.


Stephan


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Re: [OSM-talk] amenity=Observatory OR amenity=astronomical_observatory

[Dave F.]

On 09/01/2011 21:06, marcellobil...@gmail wrote:

Hi all, just a question for all the community which one tag is better:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Observatory or
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity=astronomical_ob
servatory
I realized just now that there is already another tag similar to what I was
going to propose.
here the discussion
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/amenity%3Dastronom
ical_observatory


How are the mapped ones tagged?

Not saying it's correct but here's Mauna Kea:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatch2&lat=19.82544&lon=-155.4728&zoom=16


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Re: [OSM-talk] Landsat WMS is dead

[Vincent Pottier]

Le 09/01/2011 23:13, Stephan Knauss a écrit :

Hi,

The landsat WMS service is dead.

Server returns this:
This server no longer provides full WMS services!

They suggest to use tiled WMS.
Is this working with JOSM?

http://onearth.jpl.nasa.gov/


Unfortunately for many areas Landsat is still the best available 
imagery source.


Stephan

In JOSM I use
Landsat (mirroir)wms:http://irs.gis-lab.info/?layers=landsat&;
--
FrViPofm

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[OSM-talk] Landsat WMS is dead

[Stephan Knauss]

Hi,

The landsat WMS service is dead.

Server returns this:
This server no longer provides full WMS services!

They suggest to use tiled WMS.
Is this working with JOSM?

http://onearth.jpl.nasa.gov/


Unfortunately for many areas Landsat is still the best available imagery 
source.


Stephan


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Re: [OSM-talk] amenity=Observatory OR amenity=astronomical_observatory

[Richard Weait]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:06 PM, marcellobil...@gmail
 wrote:
> Hi all, just a question for all the community which one tag is better:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Observatory or
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity=astronomical_ob
> servatory
> I realized just now that there is already another tag similar to what I was
> going to propose.
> here the discussion
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/amenity%3Dastronom
> ical_observatory

Seems like there is relatively little in the data base for either of
those tags at this point.

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/search?q=observatory#values

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[OSM-talk] amenity=Observatory OR amenity=astronomical_observatory

[marcellobil...@gmail]

Hi all, just a question for all the community which one tag is better:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Observatory or
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity=astronomical_ob
servatory
I realized just now that there is already another tag similar to what I was
going to propose.
here the discussion
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/amenity%3Dastronom
ical_observatory

regards
Marcello


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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:28 AM, Gorm E. Johnsen  wrote:
> Today there is >5500 ways with highway=unsurfaced  (Taginfo). They seem to
> be evenly spread over the planet and was depreciated almost three years ago.
>
> I would like to replace them with something better. I was thinking

The sense I get from the discussion below is you should do this only
on a country-by-country basis. Ask the US mappers what to replace it
with for the US. Then for the UK...Australia...etc.

If you do a mass change, I think highway=road, surface=unsurfaced
would be the most conservative approach. (But also of little value.)

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Dave F.]

On 09/01/2011 16:28, Gorm E. Johnsen wrote:

Hi

Today there is >5500 ways with highway=unsurfaced...


Whilst the surface condition should be a sub-tag (surface=*), you 
unfortunately don't know what the actual road classification is, so it's 
inadvisable to do a mass change.


Does anyone know if there's a way to mass email the persons who tagged 
them that way & ask them to check & clarify?


Cheers
Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Nathan Edgars II]

The xapi is now back up. Thanks to everyone involved in creating and
maintaining this great resource.

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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> Although policy is that software should be open source, and 80n has recently
> removed the access to the code we have not as yet done anything to restrict
> his access to or use of the server.

Ah, OK. Thanks for the clarification.

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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Tom Hughes]

On 09/01/11 18:58, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Grant Slater
  wrote:


XAPI currently uses 2 servers:
  * xapi.org.org: Hardware provided and hosted by OSM sysadmin team.
Sysadmin policy that the code needs to be open source. 80n remove the
source code dump in December.


So you're saying that the recent problems have been caused by
political grandstanding? Bloody hell.


No, he didn't say that.

Although policy is that software should be open source, and 80n has 
recently removed the access to the code we have not as yet done anything 
to restrict his access to or use of the server.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 20:15:46 +0100
M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2011/1/9 ヴィカス　ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) :
> > I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be
> > tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The
> > problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street).
> > 1) We don't have names for living streets
> 
> 
> are you sure you are talking about living streets or do you mean
> residential streets?
> 
> 
> > 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or
> > hamlet)
> 
> 
> locality should be used for uninhabited places
> 
> 
> sorry, that I cannot help you with your original problem.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 

Martin's reply highlights a problem with the eurocentric version of a
place hierarchy in OSM - it doesn't fit India.

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 17:28:14 +0100
"Gorm E. Johnsen"  wrote:

> I would like to replace them with something better. I was thinking
> highway=road + surface=unpaved.
> 
> Do you agree that we should replace highway=unsurfaced? If not,
> please write a few words why you don't think we should.

Please don't perform any of these of these experiments on the continent
called Australia without a discussion on the talk-au list


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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Grant Slater]

On 9 January 2011 18:58, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
>>
>> XAPI currently uses 2 servers:
>>  * xapi.org.org: Hardware provided and hosted by OSM sysadmin team.
>> Sysadmin policy that the code needs to be open source. 80n remove the
>> source code dump in December.
>
> So you're saying that the recent problems have been caused by
> political grandstanding? Bloody hell.
>

No. See the rest of my email. XAPI is load balanced.

November 2010 Technical group minutes record we intended providing
additional hardware for XAPI:
http://www.osmfoundation.org/images/b/b5/TWGmeetingsummary2010-11-11.pdf
I have attempted to chat to 80n about upgrades, but hasn't been fruitful.

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Milo van der Linden]

"They seem to be evenly spread over the planet and was depreciated <
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Deprecated_features> almost three years
ago."


I am mapping Aruba, most unpaved roads there are currently set to
highway=track, and there is a lot of them. I will check Aruba for
"deprecated" features and correct them there.

Big cheers for taginfo, it is really an excelent website. The only thing I
am missing is a filter by bounding box, but If I find time I will generate
an amateurs mini-taginfo to monitor my own regions of interest.
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Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/1/9 ヴィカス　ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) :
> I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in
> order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every
> house has to be tied to a street (addr:street).
> 1) We don't have names for living streets


are you sure you are talking about living streets or do you mean
residential streets?


> 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet)


locality should be used for uninhabited places


sorry, that I cannot help you with your original problem.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Pierre-Alain Dorange]

Grant Slater  wrote:

> Future of XAPI...
> Since December there is a new java implemenation of XAPI under
> development. Code is open source
> https://github.com/iandees/xapi-antlr/ . OSM sysadmin team has
> provided a modest server (
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/azure ) to help with
> development. Additional hardware will be provided when a new
> implemenation is ready.

Great news.
XAPI is fine tool that enable to experiment and works with OSM data
easily. For me it's the simple and fastest (when running ;-) way to used
data from OSM.
-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange
OSM experiences : 


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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Grant Slater
 wrote:
> On 9 January 2011 16:19, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
>> Does anyone know when the xapi will be back online? It's been down for
>> several days at least.
>>
>
> 80n is the only person who coded / runs the current implemention of
> XAPI which is written in GT.M / MUMPS.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS
> Others have attempting at getting it running but failed.
>
> XAPI currently uses 2 servers:
>  * xapi.org.org: Hardware provided and hosted by OSM sysadmin team.
> Sysadmin policy that the code needs to be open source. 80n remove the
> source code dump in December.

So you're saying that the recent problems have been caused by
political grandstanding? Bloody hell.

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[john]

In a prosperous country, the only roads likely to be unsurfaced are tracks, 
unclassified, or bridleways.  Other roads are likely to have at least a gravel 
surface.  However, in much of the Third World, the majority of the roads are 
likely to be unsurfaced, even if they are of major importance to the region.  
So, no one set of assumptions will fit the entire world.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced
>From  :mailto:rich...@systemed.net
Date  :Sun Jan 09 12:01:11 America/Chicago 2011



Gorm E. Johnsen wrote:
> They seem to be evenly spread over the planet and was
> depreciated
> almost three years ago.

"Depreciated" means "reduced in value". You mean "deprecated", but you can
only deprecate a feature from the wiki docs, not from the database.

> I would like to replace them with something better. I was thinking
> highway=road + surface=unpaved.

No. highway=unsurfaced could be what's now commonly tagged as highway=track,
or highway=unclassified, or highway=bridleway. Only one of those three is a
road.

You should create a rendering which highlights highway=unsurfaced, so that
people will find them and modernise the tagging _appropriately_ for that
specific case.

cheers
Richard


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/highway-unsurfaced-tp5904655p5904843.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Grant Slater]

On 9 January 2011 16:19, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> Does anyone know when the xapi will be back online? It's been down for
> several days at least.
>

80n is the only person who coded / runs the current implemention of
XAPI which is written in GT.M / MUMPS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS
Others have attempting at getting it running but failed.

XAPI currently uses 2 servers:
 * xapi.org.org: Hardware provided and hosted by OSM sysadmin team.
Sysadmin policy that the code needs to be open source. 80n remove the
source code dump in December.
 * osmxapi.telascience.org: VM supplied by 3rd party. For the last few
months 80n has been running his own projects on this machine,
performance has slowed. OSM sysadmin team not involved.

Future of XAPI...
Since December there is a new java implemenation of XAPI under
development. Code is open source
https://github.com/iandees/xapi-antlr/ . OSM sysadmin team has
provided a modest server (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/azure ) to help with
development. Additional hardware will be provided when a new
implemenation is ready.

Regards
 Grant
 Part of OSM sysadmin team.

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Chris Hill]

On 09/01/11 16:28, Gorm E. Johnsen wrote:

Hi

Today there is >5500 ways with highway=unsurfaced  (Taginfo 
). They seem 
to be evenly spread over the planet and was depreciated 
 almost three 
years ago.


I would like to replace them with something better. I was thinking 
highway=road + surface=unpaved.


Do you agree that we should replace highway=unsurfaced? If not, please 
write a few words why you don't think we should.


Is there a better alternative than highway=road? I have seen 
'uncurfaced' described as unclassified and track, but they both 
somewhat indicate more detail tan just 'road' does.


Is there a better alternative than surface=unpaved? Maybe we could use 
surfaced=unsurfaced to, for what its worth, conserve the old highway 
value?
What should be done if there is a surface tag already? Overwrite? Or 
move to surface_old (or something)?


I would use XAPI and JOSM on about a continent at a time. Perhaps a 
bot is better, but haven't looked into how that is done. If anyone 
else willing to do it has a better tool to execute the edit, speak up.


best regards

-gormur
Please don't make a global change to this either by hand or with a bot, 
you risk making 5499 mistakes which you won't find because you won't 
visit the sites to correct it, yet it will look superficially correct. 
Find a way to highlight these and let *local* mappers investigate and 
change these to appropriate tags. It will take longer but the end 
results will be much better.


--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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Re: [OSM-talk] New user mistakenly nuking things

[Toby Murray]

I just got the OK from him to revert all his changes. I assume it
would be best to start with his most recent and work back? I know
there is both a script and a JOSM plugin to revert changesets. Any
advantage of using one over the other?

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Pierre-Alain Dorange]

80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Should be ok now.  Seems like someone had been messing with the server ...
> it somehow had an identity crisis.

I'm afraid not.

-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange
OSM experiences : 


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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Richard Fairhurst]

Gorm E. Johnsen wrote:
> They seem to be evenly spread over the planet and was
> depreciated
> almost three years ago.

"Depreciated" means "reduced in value". You mean "deprecated", but you can
only deprecate a feature from the wiki docs, not from the database.

> I would like to replace them with something better. I was thinking
> highway=road + surface=unpaved.

No. highway=unsurfaced could be what's now commonly tagged as highway=track,
or highway=unclassified, or highway=bridleway. Only one of those three is a
road.

You should create a rendering which highlights highway=unsurfaced, so that
people will find them and modernise the tagging _appropriately_ for that
specific case.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/1/9 Pieren :
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>>
>>  highway=unclassified
>>  surface=unpaved
>>  note=review:was-highway-unsurfaced
>>
>
> "unclassified" + "surface" is probably correct for most of the cases. But it
> sounds more cautious to replace it by "highway=road" + "note=deprecates
> highway=unsurfaced; re-survey please".


+1, I agree. I don't think you can asume that they are all
unclassified, roads without paving tend to be tracks in most locations
I have mapped. You cannot even be sure it is not a highway=path, so
road would be the best "intermediate" classification IMHO. I wouldn't
attach the note either (though it might not harm) as road already is
asking for re-survey.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Pieren]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>  highway=unclassified
>  surface=unpaved
>  note=review:was-highway-unsurfaced
>
>
"unclassified" + "surface" is probably correct for most of the cases. But it
sounds more cautious to replace it by "highway=road" + "note=deprecates
highway=unsurfaced; re-survey please".

Pieren
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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:14 PM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Should be ok now.  Seems like someone had been messing with the server ... it 
> somehow had an identity crisis.

 Hmmm - I'm still getting the same "failed to open a connection to the
remote server" message in JOSM.

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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Oscar Orbe]

--- On Sun, 1/9/11, Matt Amos  wrote:

From: Matt Amos 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes
To: "Nathan Edgars II" 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 5:07 PM

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> Your original complaint was about people removing *duplicate* nodes
>> though, not people removing fresh, unused nodes. That's another
>> situation; if your upload creates duplicate nodes then your upload is
>> buggy and should be stopped.
>>
> Not always - an import of TIGER county lines will create dupes with TIGER
> roads, and these should not be joined.

in this case Oscar's import consists of landuse areas, which should be
joined. otherwise, what's in the gap? ;-)

with the admin boundaries and physical features it's more of a matter
of opinion; there are good reasons to join them, and good reasons to
have them separate.

cheers,

matt

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hello, yes some of my polygons are a bit messy, nothing very relevant actually- 
I'll be fixing that in the next 24/48 hours.
regards--oscar 


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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[80n]

Should be ok now.  Seems like someone had been messing with the server ...
it somehow had an identity crisis.

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Oscar Orbe  wrote:

> aha!
> that must be the reason why I was getting  files with it...
>
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 1/9/11, Nathan Edgars II * wrote:
>
>
> From: Nathan Edgars II 
> Subject: [OSM-talk] xapi downage
> To: "OSM" 
> Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 4:19 PM
>
>
> Does anyone know when the xapi will be back online? It's been down for
> several days at least.
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Matt Amos]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> Your original complaint was about people removing *duplicate* nodes
>> though, not people removing fresh, unused nodes. That's another
>> situation; if your upload creates duplicate nodes then your upload is
>> buggy and should be stopped.
>>
> Not always - an import of TIGER county lines will create dupes with TIGER
> roads, and these should not be joined.

in this case Oscar's import consists of landuse areas, which should be
joined. otherwise, what's in the gap? ;-)

with the admin boundaries and physical features it's more of a matter
of opinion; there are good reasons to join them, and good reasons to
have them separate.

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Oscar Orbe]

aha!that must be the reason why I was getting  files with it...


--- On Sun, 1/9/11, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

From: Nathan Edgars II 
Subject: [OSM-talk] xapi downage
To: "OSM" 
Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 4:19 PM

Does anyone know when the xapi will be back online? It's been down for
several days at least.

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Greg Troxel]

I would think the intent of original taggers is that highway=unsurfaced
was that they were "real roads" that aren't paved vs tracks.

So I'd map

  highway=unsurfaced

to

  highway=unclassified
  surface=unpaved
  note=review:was-highway-unsurfaced

or something like that.


Have you looked at a random 100 of the 5500 and determined what they
tend to be, and tried to contact the original taggers?  I think you
should definitely do that before munging tags.






pgpW3kqmwhDJ3.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Lennard]

On 9-1-2011 17:17, andrzej zaborowski wrote:


You can use the set python of scripts descibed in the wiki here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Upload.py to do this to some
degree.  The "smarter-sort" script sorts your changes in such a way
that they look as much as possible like a manual edit.  This way
objects and their chilren hopfully end up in an atomic diff.


I've been using that set of scripts for months now, for import style 
uploads, and it works well. You *have* to know what you're doing, and 
know the API/data model reasonably well in case things go wrong.


The scripts work on osmChange (.osc) files internally. I've extended the 
script included on that page to take an .osm file as input and return 
another .osm file at the end of the upload. That way, I can take the 
finished upload and postprocess with JOSM.


smarter-sort.py is pretty good in limiting those situations where people 
are deleting 'unused' nodes during your upload.


I also once requested the same sorting functionality in JOSM. Kind of 
fell on deaf ears, as the ticket hasn't been acted upon. 
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/4299


--
Lennard

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[OSM-talk] highway=unsurfaced

[Gorm E. Johnsen]

Hi

Today there is >5500 ways with highway=unsurfaced
(Taginfo).
They seem to be evenly spread over the planet and was
depreciatedalmost
three years ago.

I would like to replace them with something better. I was thinking
highway=road + surface=unpaved.

Do you agree that we should replace highway=unsurfaced? If not, please write
a few words why you don't think we should.

Is there a better alternative than highway=road? I have seen 'uncurfaced'
described as unclassified and track, but they both somewhat indicate more
detail tan just 'road' does.

Is there a better alternative than surface=unpaved? Maybe we could use
surfaced=unsurfaced to, for what its worth, conserve the old highway value?
What should be done if there is a surface tag already? Overwrite? Or move to
surface_old (or something)?

I would use XAPI and JOSM on about a continent at a time. Perhaps a bot is
better, but haven't looked into how that is done. If anyone else willing to
do it has a better tool to execute the edit, speak up.

best regards

-gormur
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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Nathan Edgars II]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> 
> Your original complaint was about people removing *duplicate* nodes 
> though, not people removing fresh, unused nodes. That's another 
> situation; if your upload creates duplicate nodes then your upload is 
> buggy and should be stopped.
> 
Not always - an import of TIGER county lines will create dupes with TIGER
roads, and these should not be joined.
-- 
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[OSM-talk] xapi downage

[Nathan Edgars II]

Does anyone know when the xapi will be back online? It's been down for
several days at least.

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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[andrzej zaborowski]

On 9 January 2011 14:54, Matt Amos  wrote:
> hi oscar. are you using diff uploads to create the polygons? if so, it
> would be a good idea to group the uploaded ways and relations for the
> polygon along with the nodes it needs. this would mean that such an
> error wouldn't occur. i seem to remember that this was done for the
> french corrine import and maybe it would be a good idea to talk to
> them about good techniques for doing this before going any further?

You can use the set python of scripts descibed in the wiki here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Upload.py to do this to some
degree.  The "smarter-sort" script sorts your changes in such a way
that they look as much as possible like a manual edit.  This way
objects and their chilren hopfully end up in an atomic diff.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 77, Issue 26

[Richard Welty]

On 1/9/11 6:18 AM, David  wrote:

I guess in theory, having a double decker bridge, directly over a state
line is possible.  But why write routers for the one case thats
theoretically possible, instead of the millions that are not only
possible, but already in existance?


not just in theory: George Washington Bridge, connecting NYC with
New Jersey. and it's not a minor bridge, it is rather a pretty significant
one in the traffic grid.

so you can't really dismiss the case as purely theoretical.

richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] no map data available for chilean map

[Craig Wallace]

On 09/01/2011 15:09, Felipe Edwards wrote:

Hi
I have a garmin 1490t with europe navteq map as default.
I regularly use the chilean .img file from geofabrik. It let me route
and search cities, but i can´t search for addresses. When i try a pop up
message cames out saying "no map data available"
can anyone help me?
i tried everything, even reset the gps to original settings
thanks
fec


Are you sure you mean Geofabrik, I didn't think they provided any maps 
in Garmin format?


Anyway, this is a known issue with Mkgmap, the software used for 
generating most Garmin format OSM maps. The Garmin img format is not 
fully understood, so its not known how to make the address search work 
properly. It seems it works on some Garmin devices but not others. See 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mkgmap/known_issues


I don't know if this has been improved in more recent versions of 
Mkgmap. I see Mkgmap now has an option "--index" which creates MDR and 
MDX index files, for address search in Mapsource, but I don't know if 
you can transfer these to the GPS device.
There is also the option for "--road-name-pois" which will create a POI 
for each road, which you can then search for. The problem with this is 
it creates lots of ugly dots everywhere, and it clutters up the POI 
search with road names.

You could try generating some maps with these options and see if they help.

Craig

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[OSM-talk] no map data available for chilean map

[Felipe Edwards]

Hi
I have a garmin 1490t with europe navteq map as default.
I regularly use the chilean .img file from geofabrik. It let me route and
search cities, but i can´t search for addresses. When i try a pop up message
cames out saying "no map data available"
can anyone help me?
i tried everything, even reset the gps to original settings
thanks
fec
-- 
Felipe Edwards Cerda
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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Frederik Ramm]

Oscar,

Oscar Orbe wrote:
in any case, I dont think it's a good idea to remove unused nodes which 
are extremely recent.


I don't think that someone dos it programatically - but if you edit an 
area and find a stray unused node you often delete that without checking 
when it was created!


Your original complaint was about people removing *duplicate* nodes 
though, not people removing fresh, unused nodes. That's another 
situation; if your upload creates duplicate nodes then your upload is 
buggy and should be stopped.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postmortem analysys

[Lester Caine]

Matt Amos wrote:

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:

>  The original decision that there should be no duplicate nodes simply ignored
>  many of the arguments that there are very good reasons for needing them,
>  then tools like the duplicate nodes map ASSUME that the decision takes
>  priority rather than allowing 'duplicates' which are distinguished due to
>  their elevation?

the duplicate nodes map doesn't assume that all duplicates are errors
(http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/dupe_nodes/about.html#errors). it's
simply a tool for finding them - because most of them are errors, -
and it's nice to have tools which help in fixing them. as Tom points
out, it seems that some are simply a little too zealous in fixing
them, maybe relying too heavily on the auto-fix feature in JOSM's
validator, and should be looking at the data more thoroughly.


Sorry was not 'blaming' duplicate nodes map directly. Unless that is it DOES 
highlight nodes which are at different elevations? In which case it should 
simply not be highlighting them in the first place? Then people would not be 
'trying to correct them' ... If nodes have a different elevation then they 
perhaps should be identified differently if they need to be highlighted?


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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Oscar Orbe]

hello:thanks for the hint.in any case, I dont think it's a good idea to remove 
unused nodes which are extremely recent.
regards--oscar
--- On Sun, 1/9/11, Matt Amos  wrote:

From: Matt Amos 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes
To: "Oscar Orbe" 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 1:54 PM

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Oscar Orbe  wrote:
>
> Dear list
> I am uploading some landuse polygons and sometimes I get the error that says 
> something like "that node does not exist".
> I think there are people removing unused nodes too fast.
> Perhaps those people can change their algorithms so that they only remove 
> unused nodes whose age is at least 24 hours for example??? so they wont 
> interrupt uploading processes...

hi oscar. are you using diff uploads to create the polygons? if so, it
would be a good idea to group the uploaded ways and relations for the
polygon along with the nodes it needs. this would mean that such an
error wouldn't occur. i seem to remember that this was done for the
french corrine import and maybe it would be a good idea to talk to
them about good techniques for doing this before going any further?

cheers,

matt



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Re: [OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Matt Amos]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Oscar Orbe  wrote:
>
> Dear list
> I am uploading some landuse polygons and sometimes I get the error that says 
> something like "that node does not exist".
> I think there are people removing unused nodes too fast.
> Perhaps those people can change their algorithms so that they only remove 
> unused nodes whose age is at least 24 hours for example??? so they wont 
> interrupt uploading processes...

hi oscar. are you using diff uploads to create the polygons? if so, it
would be a good idea to group the uploaded ways and relations for the
polygon along with the nodes it needs. this would mean that such an
error wouldn't occur. i seem to remember that this was done for the
french corrine import and maybe it would be a good idea to talk to
them about good techniques for doing this before going any further?

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Postmortem analysys

[Matt Amos]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:
> The original decision that there should be no duplicate nodes simply ignored
> many of the arguments that there are very good reasons for needing them,
> then tools like the duplicate nodes map ASSUME that the decision takes
> priority rather than allowing 'duplicates' which are distinguished due to
> their elevation?

the duplicate nodes map doesn't assume that all duplicates are errors
(http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/dupe_nodes/about.html#errors). it's
simply a tool for finding them - because most of them are errors, -
and it's nice to have tools which help in fixing them. as Tom points
out, it seems that some are simply a little too zealous in fixing
them, maybe relying too heavily on the auto-fix feature in JOSM's
validator, and should be looking at the data more thoroughly.

cheers,

matt

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[OSM-talk] To those who remove dupe nodes

[Oscar Orbe]

Dear listI am uploading some landuse polygons and sometimes I get the error 
that says something like "that node does not exist". 
I think there are people removing unused nodes too fast.
Perhaps those people can change their algorithms so that they only remove 
unused nodes whose age is at least 24 hours for example??? so they wont 
interrupt uploading processes...
thanks--oscar


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Re: [OSM-talk] New user mistakenly nuking things

[Bráulio]

This is a great idea, in my opinion. I hope someone implements. The Windows
3.11 tutorial is a great example of how to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_s-py34eNU


2011/1/9 Donald Campbell II 

>   I wonder how frequently something like this happens in some unmonitored
>> area in the US.
>
>
> I'm pretty sure it happens all over the place all the time.  I'm one of
> very few people actively mapping Guyana and just last week this new user
> stuck a town in the ocean.  So I politely messaged him and asked if he was
> sure it belonged there and he was pretty positive it was correct.  So I sent
> him a permalink of it floating out there in the sea... whooops.   Yeah that
> was an accident.  There was also a kind of random 2m track connected to a
> town he made and some other little odds and ends.
>
> Enthusiasm is good though.
>
> I've often wished casual visitors could put things on the map anonymously
> and that they'd go into a big moderated bucket to await approval or rather
> end up in a openstreetbugs kind of layer instead.  Or rather new registered
> users could have "training wheels" of some sort for their first few edits.
> Perhaps a set of Potlatch tutorials that would have them add the yellow
> brick road to the land of Oz, then the Emerald city...  a few shops,
> barbers, tailors, a field of poppies, apple orchard with paths, highways,
> etc...
>
> Then you get to touch the real world.   ;-)
>
> Or just skip the whole thing if you like to keep the wiki-purists happy.  I
> think wiki believers should watch Ratatouille...  yes ANYONE can edit, but
> not ANYONE can be a great cook.   Or something like that.   :-)
>
> -Don.
>
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[OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim

[vikas yadav]

Hi,

I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in
order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every
house has to be tied to a street (addr:street).
1) We don't have names for living streets
2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet)

Just to get the parser work accurately I had to name closeby living_street
street as "Sector 46" or "Block B" - which when rendered would look very
strange cause that should only be name of the area and not the name of
street. But that is the only way I could successfully parse address such as
"19, Block A1, South City II, Gurgoan" or "1532, Sector 46, Gurgoan" which
are exact postal address.

So is there a way that I can tie a addr: to a hamlet/locality instead of
street?

(I installed Nominatim myself to be able to hit-and-try and learn the exact
way, therefore these example addresses won't work on live on current data.)

Please suggest,
Vikas
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postmortem analysys

[Lester Caine]

Tom Hughes wrote:

On 09/01/11 10:34, Lester Caine wrote:

Nathan Edgars II wrote:

But why write routers for the one case thats
> theoretically possible, instead of the millions that are not only
> possible, but already in existance?

I don't care how the routers are written. I care about people wrecking
the data by merging dupes.

And assuming that no nodes at different elevations but the same
coordinates are allowed is just crass.


Look people, this really is very simple and I have no idea why this
thread has managed to go on so long...

OpenStreetMap has, and always has had, a topological model. If two
physical things are connected in real life then they should be connected
in OSM by making them share a node. If they don't then that is a bug in
the data that should be fixed.

If two things which are not physically connected in the real world are
sharing a node in the database then that is a bug in the data which
should be fixed.

Routing programs should rely on the topological data that we provide and
not guess that things which are close are connected.

People merging duplicate nodes should not do so blindly and should check
what they are doing - in many cases that may mean having to do a
physical survey or examine aerial imagery to verify the situation on the
ground.

Unfortunately the duplicate nodes map seems to encourage people to go
round blindly merging which is why I don't particularly like it. It was
noticeable that when I was using it and deliberately leaving some near
me alone because I didn't know the real situation that other people
would just come round and merge them anyway.


Exactly ... Personally I will STILL use a new node if I need to even if there is 
an existing one with the same XY coordinates UNTIL I can establish if the 
elevation data needs to be different. Many of the comments as to why there is no 
need for the conflict since they can give examples of why the nodes on different 
ways do not need to overlap seem to miss the fact that splitting a way by 
another way such as an admin boundary needs to create a node which may well be 
defined on the admin boundary already, and the new node needs to be an a layer 
below or above that already defined.


The original decision that there should be no duplicate nodes simply ignored 
many of the arguments that there are very good reasons for needing them, then 
tools like the duplicate nodes map ASSUME that the decision takes priority 
rather than allowing 'duplicates' which are distinguished due to their elevation?


I'll be honest ... it's been a while since I had to worry, but I can remember 
having to edit things with the new node moved away from it's real location, and 
then move it back to where it should be. Deleting the other node at those 
bridges would have been equally wrong.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New user mistakenly nuking things

[Donald Campbell II]

>
>   I wonder how frequently something like this happens in some unmonitored
> area in the US.


I'm pretty sure it happens all over the place all the time.  I'm one of very
few people actively mapping Guyana and just last week this new user stuck a
town in the ocean.  So I politely messaged him and asked if he was sure it
belonged there and he was pretty positive it was correct.  So I sent him a
permalink of it floating out there in the sea... whooops.   Yeah that was an
accident.  There was also a kind of random 2m track connected to a town he
made and some other little odds and ends.

Enthusiasm is good though.

I've often wished casual visitors could put things on the map anonymously
and that they'd go into a big moderated bucket to await approval or rather
end up in a openstreetbugs kind of layer instead.  Or rather new registered
users could have "training wheels" of some sort for their first few edits.
Perhaps a set of Potlatch tutorials that would have them add the yellow
brick road to the land of Oz, then the Emerald city...  a few shops,
barbers, tailors, a field of poppies, apple orchard with paths, highways,
etc...

Then you get to touch the real world.   ;-)

Or just skip the whole thing if you like to keep the wiki-purists happy.  I
think wiki believers should watch Ratatouille...  yes ANYONE can edit, but
not ANYONE can be a great cook.   Or something like that.   :-)

-Don.
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Re: [OSM-talk] New user mistakenly nuking things

[Mike N.]

Unfortunately he accidentally nuked a bunch of nodes in one area. He
tried to re-add them but he didn't get them all. He has also added
some things and then re-deleted them. I am in contact with him trying
to figure things out but for those who have experience reverting
things: How hard would it be to revert all his changesets and "reset"
the map to the way it was a few days ago? I'm not actually asking for
a revert (yet) because I'm still discussing it with him but I wanted
some input from someone with reverting experience. I wasn't sure how
it would turn out with multiple add/delete cycles going on.


  Wow - I think he would be a good sample case for those conducting UI 
studies in how to improve the operation so that he is not tempted to do the 
wrong thing.


  It look like the changesets are relatively small, and a revert of all 
changesets might be easier - particularly after all the named object 
deletions.   Otherwise something will be forgotten.   I hope that your 
tutorial sessions are successful.


  I wonder how frequently something like this happens in some unmonitored 
area in the US. 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Postmortem analysys

[Tom Hughes]

On 09/01/11 10:34, Lester Caine wrote:

Nathan Edgars II wrote:

But why write routers for the one case thats
> theoretically possible, instead of the millions that are not only
> possible, but already in existance?

I don't care how the routers are written. I care about people wrecking
the data by merging dupes.

And assuming that no nodes at different elevations but the same
coordinates are allowed is just crass.


Look people, this really is very simple and I have no idea why this 
thread has managed to go on so long...


OpenStreetMap has, and always has had, a topological model. If two 
physical things are connected in real life then they should be connected 
in OSM by making them share a node. If they don't then that is a bug in 
the data that should be fixed.


If two things which are not physically connected in the real world are 
sharing a node in the database then that is a bug in the data which 
should be fixed.


Routing programs should rely on the topological data that we provide and 
not guess that things which are close are connected.


People merging duplicate nodes should not do so blindly and should check 
what they are doing - in many cases that may mean having to do a 
physical survey or examine aerial imagery to verify the situation on the 
ground.


Unfortunately the duplicate nodes map seems to encourage people to go 
round blindly merging which is why I don't particularly like it. It was 
noticeable that when I was using it and deliberately leaving some near 
me alone because I didn't know the real situation that other people 
would just come round and merge them anyway.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Postmortem analysys

[Lester Caine]

Nathan Edgars II wrote:

But why write routers for the one case thats
>  theoretically possible, instead of the millions that are not only
>  possible, but already in existance?

I don't care how the routers are written. I care about people wrecking
the data by merging dupes.
And assuming that no nodes at different elevations but the same coordinates are 
allowed is just crass.


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
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