Re: [OSM-talk] Reference set of icons ...

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:

> OK I've spent most of the day playing with id trying to make it work in a
> manor that works for me. I'm at the point where I'm working out how to add
> missing icons to the library, and I'm having some trouble finding a
> suitable reference set to work from.
> https://github.com/**gravitystorm/openstreetmap-**
> carto/tree/master/symbols
> https://github.com/**openstreetmap/potlatch2/tree/**master/resources/iconsseems
>  to be a fairly complete 16x16
>


Have you looked at https://github.com/mapbox/maki
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Re: [OSM-talk] Slow TileMill rendering - Postgres using 1 core?

[Steve Bennett]

Hi Christian,
  Thanks for the reply. After further investigation the actual problem was
a missing index on planet_osm_polygon. (I'm really not sure why.)

Steve


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 9:00 PM, Christian Quest wrote:

> As far as I know, Tilemill is using mapnik which is querying postgres.
> Plain vanilla Mapnik is not doing more than one postgres query at a time
> (not multithreading queries).
> A patch made by mappy allows mapnik to multithread its pg queries. Are you
> using the exact same version of Mapnik as before ?
>
>
> 2013/8/25 Steve Bennett 
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm running TileMill on an 8 core Ubuntu VM with 32GB of memory, on an
>> OpenStack cloud. Recently, my VM was destroyed, and I rebuilt it
>> (identically, I thought) on slightly different hardware (same cloud, but
>> different physical infrastructure).
>>
>> The new build is much slower at rendering - a screen worth of tiles at
>> zoom 13 can take around a minute. That is, with virtually the same setup,
>> same data, same styles. You can see some slow tiles here:
>>
>> http://emscycletours.site44.com/mel.html
>>
>> While panning around, the 'top' command shows mostly Postgres processes
>> (different from last time I had performance problems[1], when the
>> bottleneck was in Mapnik). Total CPU usage hangs around 12%: ie, exactly 1
>> out of 8 cores is being used.
>>
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/767553/GIS/Screen%20shot%202013-08-25%20at%2011.15.01%20AM.png
>>
>> top - 11:10:32 up 3 days, 36 min,  1 user,  load average: 0.06, 0.17, 0.22
>> Tasks: 133 total,   4 running, 129 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
>> %Cpu(s): 11.5 us,  0.1 sy,  0.0 ni, 88.4 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,
>>  0.0 st
>> KiB Mem:  32950396 total,  7150132 used, 25800264 free,   117864 buffers
>> KiB Swap:0 total,0 used,0 free,  5221356 cached
>>
>>   PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S  %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND
>>  2353 postgres  20   0 8510m 640m 635m S  41.2  2.0  23:36.57 postgres
>>  2354 postgres  20   0 8510m 644m 639m S  40.2  2.0  23:24.26 postgres
>>  2350 postgres  20   0 8510m 642m 638m S  14.0  2.0  23:19.19 postgres
>>  2375 postgres  20   0 8510m 643m 639m S  14.0  2.0  23:17.80 postgres
>> 13102 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S  13.6  1.7  13:03.21 postgres
>>  2355 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 526m S  13.3  1.7  13:45.15 postgres
>>  2352 postgres  20   0 8510m 640m 636m S  10.0  2.0  23:31.17 postgres
>>  2348 postgres  20   0 8510m 644m 639m S   9.3  2.0  23:41.88 postgres
>> 12420 mapbox20   0 3818m 1.0g 755m S   9.3  3.2  36:48.39 nodejs
>>  2357 postgres  20   0 8508m 530m 526m S   7.3  1.7  13:38.57 postgres
>>  2356 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 526m R   6.3  1.7  13:42.52 postgres
>>  2376 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S   6.0  1.7  13:35.51 postgres
>> 13195 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S   5.3  1.7  12:33.65 postgres
>>  3027 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m R   3.3  1.7  13:29.06 postgres
>>  2349 postgres  20   0 8508m 530m 526m S   3.0  1.6  13:38.19 postgres
>>  2358 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S   3.0  1.7  13:44.59 postgres
>>26 root  20   0 000 S   0.3  0.0   0:08.64 ksoftirqd/5
>>  2335 postgres  20   0 8489m 2732 1340 S   0.3  0.0   1:00.48 postgres
>>
>> So, wondering if anyone has any suggestions what the problem is, or how
>> to fix it? Why is Postgres apparently using only one core, even though it
>> has many processes? What tools could I use to further diagnose?
>>
>> My changed Postgres settings are as follows:
>>
>> shared_buffers = 8GB
>> autovacuum = on
>> effective_cache_size = 8GB
>> work_mem = 128MB
>> maintenance_work_mem = 64MB
>> wal_buffers = 1MB
>> checkpoint_segments = 10
>>
>> The server is set up as described here:
>> http://steveko.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/tilemill-server/
>>
>> I'm not yet using any tile cache. I will do that next, but the problem
>> I'm trying to solve at the moment is very slow tile generation, not slow
>> serving of rendered tiles.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance,
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> [1]
>> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/TileMill-performance-td5751158.html
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
> Un nouveau serveur pour OSM... http://donate.osm.org/server2013/
>
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[OSM-talk] Reference set of icons ...

[Lester Caine]

OK I've spent most of the day playing with id trying to make it work in a manor 
that works for me. I'm at the point where I'm working out how to add missing 
icons to the library, and I'm having some trouble finding a suitable reference 
set to work from.


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/tree/master/symbols has 
rather small icons, but some varying sizes, and is not suitable as a base for 
larger size icons. I think the default here is only 12x12 icons?


https://github.com/openstreetmap/potlatch2/tree/master/resources/icons seems to 
be a fairly complete 16x16 set and has all the missing icons but can't be used 
with id which expects circular ones. JOSM uses the same set of icons? My quick 
comparison would suggest so, and certainly I was seeing the same style from both.


I've got the compiled png file for id, but have yet to find the source set for 
these and we need a 24x24 base image which is then scaled for 16x16 and 12x12, 
but because of the round bubbles used in id the corners can't be used.


My current thought is to take the JOSM/P2 icon set and use the missing ones to 
complete the id library, but since these are no longer used on the main map is 
anybody working on a better reference set?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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[OSM-talk] SOTM 2013 - Poster and Accommodation deadline

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi All,

Two deadlines for State of the Map to be aware of:

== 1. Posters: ==
We are offering to print (free of charge thanks to ITO World) A1 sized
posters for display at SOTM. This is ideal for people who want to share
something with the community but are unable to attend.

Our print deadline for these is WEDNESDAY 28th August (this week). Please
fill in the online form and we will get back to you:
http://2013.stateofthemap.org/info/call-presentations/

(note that this deadline does not apply if you are intending to print your
own poster and bring it with you).


== 2. Accommodation: ==
Because of demand from other events at Aston, SotM has to release any hotel
rooms reserved but not booked by delegates by WEDENESDAY 28th August (11am
GMT). After that time you'll be competing with others in reserving rooms -
they're still available subject to demand: you will have to call Aston's
Reservations Team on 0121 204 3726 or email r.bi...@aston.ac.uk and you'll
get the best available rate on the day of booking.

(note: This does not apply to the student residences, which are available
to book right up to Tuesday 3rd September)

Regards,
Rob

stateofthemap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Paul Johnson]

On Aug 23, 2013 5:06 AM, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
wrote:

> IMHO an editor should either display these memberships and relations or
not allow the modification of involved members. Doing neither is crying for
trouble.

I'm willing to go so far as to say any editor that doesn't is fundamentally
lacking at a basic level and should be withdrawn until fixed.  It's 2013
and things like highway, bus, bicycle and hiking routes, turn restrictions
and site mapping intrinsically depend on relations.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Route calculation on tracks Was: Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[Gmail]

Florian Lohoff :
>Mapfactor Navigator for Android is capable of exactly doing this - why
>arent the others?
>
This is something you probably have to ask them.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Route calculation on tracks Was: Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 09:37:50AM +0100, SomeoneElse wrote:
> Florian Lohoff wrote:
> >ANY road should be used for routing - track/service do have an
> >implicit access=destination and should not used for "through"
> >traffic but have no route restrictions otherwise
> 
> That may be the case where you live but I wouldn't make that
> assumption worldwide.  I certainly wouldn't assume that a track in
> England without any access or designation tags was publically
> accessible.
> 
> Routers have a difficult job to do of balancing physical and legal
> restrictions - there isn't a "one size fits all" answer.  It's more
> of a problem for OSM because commercial datasets for car satnavs
> tend not to include the wealth of paths and tracks in OSM in
> well-mapped areas.

Still - a track may be usable to reach a destination. For routers they
may appear at the end or the start of a route e.g. access=destination
any may not be used for through traffic.

Mapfactor Navigator for Android is capable of exactly doing this - why
arent the others?

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de


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Re: [OSM-talk] Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 02:05:51AM +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> No footpaths, lights, tarmac or road markings but freely available to drive 
> along.

I have been to African countrys where even primarys dont have lights,
tarmac or road markings - still they are primary roads, officially
on the maps.

Classification of roads only mean something to their appearence in local
context. This is the reason there is no highway=unpaved - It might
be a long distance primary or a service road. This would make
a huge difference in routing preference.

Classification e.g. highway= is meant to be used for routing
preferences, whereas additional tags may describe the physical
representation of the road. That this is not yet visually shown
in the maps is bad luck but no reason to abuse the track.

> It's a track ... but the current definition prevents it's use.
> Adding other tags to 'service' is wrong as well as its servicing
> anywhere, and unclassified has a similar incongruity. Many of them
> have been at least hardcored, but even then 'road' just seems too
> grand a title for a track.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de


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[OSM-talk] Problems with new setup

[Lester Caine]

OK I've raised an issue on id and it's been closed as invalid.

Having now dug into the id code and got to the point where I am now playing with 
my own version of the style sheets and icons, I'm able to understand better why 
I'm HAVING problems. One of the major differences is the use of black as the 
background, rather than the lighter colour of P2 and the map itself.


Selecting backgrounds such as Open Streetview leave much of the detail invisible 
as white against white, and while the use of the 50% setting allows the details 
to be seen, the background is then unusable. I had though this was due to the 
different way the background is 'dimmed' which is the approach used on P2, but 
it is more to do with inverting the default background and trying to use white 
for everything is not working.


My original issue and the one raised is strange since id IS defaulting to a 
black background, but the recent update to the bing tiles around here has 
resulted in them being somewhat darker than they used to be. When one is trying 
to use line and area, the cursor is black on a dark image and I was having 
trouble even locating it. I've switched the cursor to white and for the imagery 
this is a lot more usable, but obviously now a problem with the lighter 
background imagery.


Is nobody else find these problems with the defaults id has adopted? It's 
certainly unusable with Open Streetview when boundaries like fences and the like 
are involved. And while my restructure of the style helps in some areas, it's 
still not able to provide a complete solution. I've not worked out yet how to 
add back all the missing icons which are displaying as blank bubbles in the 
areas I'm working, but I can at least colour the elements that are present. It 
is amazing how similar a beer glass and a petrol pump are when both displayed in 
black


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/8/25 Greg Troxel 

>  I don't think agricultural use is necessary for track.



but the wiki does (for years if not since ever). Or alternatively similar
uses (forestry, fishing).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[Greg Troxel]

"John F. Eldredge"  writes:

> So, how would you classify a one-lane "road" leading through a former
> field, now overgrown with 30 years or so of bushes and saplings,
> leading to a billboard adjoining a motorway? The only improvements the
> "road" receives is to be mowed periodically to keep it passable, and
> its only use is by crews periodically changing what is displayed on
> the billboard.  This hardly qualifies as agricultural use, but I
> tagged it as a track because it is too rudimentary to qualify as
> anything else.

I'd call it track, if you need a something kind of like a 4WD truck to
get there, and service if a regular car would work ok on any random day
you show up.  I don't think agricultural use is necessary for track.
It's more "not a real road, not really usable by regular cars."

service vs track is actually not a big deal, because unlike
highway=unclassified/residential (and higher), highway=service does not
have an implication that the public has a right of use.  I would
implicitly treat highway=service as having access=destination if it has
no access tags, and highway=track I would assume access=private.

Probably the semantics of default access values needs to be more clearly
defined.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[Greg Troxel]

Pieren  writes:

> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 4:15 PM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:
>
>> BTW osrm.at is helping in this campaign, because it doesn't route through
>> tracks
>
> BTW I just discover that some people are tagging for routing (after
> "tagging for the renderer"). They add "access=yes" or
> "motor_vehicle=yes" to open the routable track in OSRM...

If the public really has a legal right of access, similar to a road,
then access=yes sounds entirely fair.

Around me, almost all tracks are either on private land (e.g, for
agricultural use), where there is no right of access, or are in
conservation land, wildlife management areas, etc., and are there for
emergency access, maintenance, etc. and typically blocked from motor
vehicle use by locked gates.  But, typically
pedestrian/bicyclists/horses are allowed.

If orsm is defaulting to access=private for vehicle routing for tracks
with no access tag, that does not sound unreasonable.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[Greg Troxel]

Janko Mihelić  writes:

> Track is used more and more for unpaved roads. Mapnik and other renderers
> are probably a big reason, because they don't render
> Surfaceand
> Smoothness  tags. I
> really don't know of any renderers that show these tags. I hope the new
> openstreetmap-carto stylesheet will speed up fixing this problem.

This is a good argument for enhancing the rendering to show roads that
are other than paved somehow.  A track is totally different from an
unpaved road.  In particular, a 'highway=unclassified surface=dirt' is
(around my area) legally a road, no different than if it were paved, and
almost always is a separate parcel in the sense of land ownership.  A
track is almost never legally a road, rarely has a public right of
access, but just a place you could physically drive, and is very rarely
a separate parcel.

The track/unpaved confusion is also present in at least some mkgmap
style sheets.  I agree that it's very important for many map users to
know about paved vs not-paved, at least in places where there are both
kinds.


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[OSM-talk] Floods in Khartoum, Sudan

[Severin MENARD]

Hi,

Rainy days last week over Khartoum. New HOT Tasking Manager jobs have been
made from a check between the Formosat 2 August 8 &9 analysis made by
UNOSAT,
and NextView panchromatic imagery from August 11 (the situation in the hit
areas did not improve fron taht time due to the heavy rains). This imagery
is available through the TM jobs, once agreed the License Aknowledgement .
Offset exist but have been informed in the offset DB pluging for JOSM:

   - Task Manager Job 303 
   - Task Manager Job 304 

Areas to be mapped are popular, remote neighborhoods. Please map all the
streets and buildings in the task area in order to show the pre-crisis
situation, on which damage analysis will be done.

All the information is accessible from here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2013_Sudan_floods and the TM jobs
themselves

Thanks for those who have already participated and those who will join!

Sincerely,

  [image: logo]
  *Severin Menard**
*
Haiti tel: (+509) 43 32 85 81
France tel: (+33) 9 70 46 75 95
France tel: (+33) 6 95 39 42 95
Skype ID: severin.menard

 Free signature tool.

CLICK
HERE TO GET 
IT.




2013/8/19 nicolas chavent 

>
> Hi all,
>
> Below is an email related to the World Humanitairian Day of this 19-Aug
> 2013 by Severin which has been posted on HOT and French speaking talk lists.
> Have a quick read and join this mapping effort focused in Khartum.
>
> Excellent day,
> Nicolas
>
>
> -
> Mapping flooded Khartum on the World Humanitarian Day 19-Aug 2013.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> 19-Aug 2013 is the world humanitarian day [1]
>
> Within this initiative, we are proposing to join a remote mapping campaign
> targetting the most flooded areas of Khartoum (Sudan).
> Details on this crisis are available through Relief Web: flood report [2],
> sudan weekly report [3].
> More info about the HOT response on the English [4] and French [5] wiki
> page for this disaster.
>
> 3 Jobs have been set on the HOT Tasking manager:
> - Task no 289 [5]: a few tasks are left with mapping of streets and
> buildings
> - Task no 292 [6]: neighborhoods located South East from the town where
> streets only have to be mapped in this first task.
> - Task no 293 [7]: neighborhoods located West from the River where
> streets/ roads only have to be mapped given the size of the area
>
> Thanks in advance for all of those who will be part of this mapping
> Best,
>
> Severin
>
>
> [1] = 
> [2] = http://reliefweb.int/map/sudan/sudan-flash-floods-06-aug-2013
> [3] =
> http://reliefweb.int/report/sudan/sudan-humanitarian-bulletin-issue-32-5-11-august-2013
> [4] = http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2013_Sudan_floods
> [5] = http://tasks.hotosm.org/job/289
> [6] = http://tasks.hotosm.org/job/292
> [7] = http://tasks.hotosm.org/job/293
>
>


-- Forwarded message --
From: Severin MENARD 
Date: Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 6:05 PM
Subject: Floods in Khartoum, Sudan
To: "h...@openstreetmap.org" 


Hi,

The floods are still hitting Khartoum. Thanks for those who participated to
the http://tasks.hotosm.org/job/289 that is almost finished now.

The wikipage PierZen created has been updated and there are now 2 other
tasks:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2013_Sudan_floods

As a first step, we start by mapping only the roads and streets and after
the buildings.

Sincerely,

Severin

On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Severin MENARD 
 wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Khartoum, the Capital city of Sudan, has been experiencing again extremely
> heavy rains since Early August, that have turned into floods, houses
> falling, areas drowning, victims and the forecast says this will continue
> the coming days. You can follow the current situation on
> khartoumflood.crowdmap.com. The Humanitarian Response is led on the field
> by UNDP.
>
> I just created a TM job for the most affected area:
> http://tasks.hotosm.org/job/289. Others will follow. I will also create a
> wikipage.
>
> Please map all the streets and building on the area in order to get the
> pre-crisis situation, on which damage ana

Re: [OSM-talk] Slow TileMill rendering - Postgres using 1 core?

[Christian Quest]

As far as I know, Tilemill is using mapnik which is querying postgres.
Plain vanilla Mapnik is not doing more than one postgres query at a time
(not multithreading queries).
A patch made by mappy allows mapnik to multithread its pg queries. Are you
using the exact same version of Mapnik as before ?


2013/8/25 Steve Bennett 

> Hi all,
>
> I'm running TileMill on an 8 core Ubuntu VM with 32GB of memory, on an
> OpenStack cloud. Recently, my VM was destroyed, and I rebuilt it
> (identically, I thought) on slightly different hardware (same cloud, but
> different physical infrastructure).
>
> The new build is much slower at rendering - a screen worth of tiles at
> zoom 13 can take around a minute. That is, with virtually the same setup,
> same data, same styles. You can see some slow tiles here:
>
> http://emscycletours.site44.com/mel.html
>
> While panning around, the 'top' command shows mostly Postgres processes
> (different from last time I had performance problems[1], when the
> bottleneck was in Mapnik). Total CPU usage hangs around 12%: ie, exactly 1
> out of 8 cores is being used.
>
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/767553/GIS/Screen%20shot%202013-08-25%20at%2011.15.01%20AM.png
>
> top - 11:10:32 up 3 days, 36 min,  1 user,  load average: 0.06, 0.17, 0.22
> Tasks: 133 total,   4 running, 129 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
> %Cpu(s): 11.5 us,  0.1 sy,  0.0 ni, 88.4 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,
>  0.0 st
> KiB Mem:  32950396 total,  7150132 used, 25800264 free,   117864 buffers
> KiB Swap:0 total,0 used,0 free,  5221356 cached
>
>   PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S  %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND
>  2353 postgres  20   0 8510m 640m 635m S  41.2  2.0  23:36.57 postgres
>  2354 postgres  20   0 8510m 644m 639m S  40.2  2.0  23:24.26 postgres
>  2350 postgres  20   0 8510m 642m 638m S  14.0  2.0  23:19.19 postgres
>  2375 postgres  20   0 8510m 643m 639m S  14.0  2.0  23:17.80 postgres
> 13102 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S  13.6  1.7  13:03.21 postgres
>  2355 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 526m S  13.3  1.7  13:45.15 postgres
>  2352 postgres  20   0 8510m 640m 636m S  10.0  2.0  23:31.17 postgres
>  2348 postgres  20   0 8510m 644m 639m S   9.3  2.0  23:41.88 postgres
> 12420 mapbox20   0 3818m 1.0g 755m S   9.3  3.2  36:48.39 nodejs
>  2357 postgres  20   0 8508m 530m 526m S   7.3  1.7  13:38.57 postgres
>  2356 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 526m R   6.3  1.7  13:42.52 postgres
>  2376 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S   6.0  1.7  13:35.51 postgres
> 13195 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S   5.3  1.7  12:33.65 postgres
>  3027 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m R   3.3  1.7  13:29.06 postgres
>  2349 postgres  20   0 8508m 530m 526m S   3.0  1.6  13:38.19 postgres
>  2358 postgres  20   0 8508m 531m 527m S   3.0  1.7  13:44.59 postgres
>26 root  20   0 000 S   0.3  0.0   0:08.64 ksoftirqd/5
>  2335 postgres  20   0 8489m 2732 1340 S   0.3  0.0   1:00.48 postgres
>
> So, wondering if anyone has any suggestions what the problem is, or how to
> fix it? Why is Postgres apparently using only one core, even though it has
> many processes? What tools could I use to further diagnose?
>
> My changed Postgres settings are as follows:
>
> shared_buffers = 8GB
> autovacuum = on
> effective_cache_size = 8GB
> work_mem = 128MB
> maintenance_work_mem = 64MB
> wal_buffers = 1MB
> checkpoint_segments = 10
>
> The server is set up as described here:
> http://steveko.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/tilemill-server/
>
> I'm not yet using any tile cache. I will do that next, but the problem I'm
> trying to solve at the moment is very slow tile generation, not slow
> serving of rendered tiles.
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Steve
>
>
> [1]
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/TileMill-performance-td5751158.html
>
>
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>
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Peter Wendorff]

Hi Lester,
Thanks - my fault.
misread the section about 412, which refers to MEMBERS of the updated
object, not to the object itself.

Sorry for the confusion!

regards
Peter

Am 25.08.2013 12:37, schrieb Lester Caine:
> (remember to check address!)
> Peter Wendorff wrote:
 If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it?
 >>The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like
 that, so
 >>IMHO it's missing there, isn't it?
>>> >
>>> >They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate
>>> properties.
>>> >The more relevant call for uploading data is
>>> >http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset
>>>
>>> >.2F.23id.2Fupload.
>>> >I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation.
>>> >
>>> >
>> Sounds inconsistent nevertheless: updating a single object using PUT
>> /api/0.6/[node|way|relation]/#id is not possible when referring to a
>> deleted object, but updating the same object using diff is.
>>
>> If nobody complains, I'll add a hint to the section referring to the
>> diff upload section, and a hint that diff uploads may be used for real
>> reverts, too.
> 
> At the end of the day, nothing is ACTUALLY deleted. Currently a copy is
> retained in the changelog and that is simply used to 're-edit' changes
> so that as has been said a new version is created matching the last but
> one version. The API does not prevent using a 'deleted' node or way
> number so all of the change log history can be retained. But this is
> where maintaining historic records creates a problem. Only one copy of
> an object is maintained in the main live data, so accessing a previous
> 'view' say prior to a realignment of a road fails because it has the
> same way number. Using start and end dates to select a particular view
> is not supported ...
> 
> This is where 'delete' is the wrong concept. Currently it just means
> it's made invisible and there is no reason it can't simply be restored.
> What should be happening is that there should be a mechanism to tag the
> reason for the 'change of state' and changes that are due to historic
> development need to be made available via a different route. Since the
> start and end date tags already exist, managing these properly is long
> overdue, but it's moving records that now have an end date to a view of
> the database where that information can be used that is currently missing?
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers

[Lester Caine]

Fabian Schmidt wrote:

See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same
case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater.


In your last 5 changesets you deleted 7 nodes. You improved the quality of the
map by deleting (and adding) nodes.

When you try a new editor or add a node by mistake, you might not want to save
everything you added. So you need a way to delete them without throwing away all
your changes.


As none of the editors understand the concept of historic information, none of 
them do the job right. id certainly does NOT allow moving nodes as well as P2 
does - although part of that is probably now learning yet another interface!!!


Undo and redo are the correct way of handling things WITHIN a changeset, and yes 
delete is appropriate in the change set, but nodes that already exist IN the 
database need different handling. New mappers may not even appreciate that a 
node may be part of many other objects, and so while they are deleting it in the 
concept of what they are modifying, it may not be appropriate for the other ways 
using it! It irritates me that people merge ways because of a 'macro' view, but 
pulling them back apart to restore the the micro view is difficult with the 
current tools :( And has trouble with the reusing the changeset history.


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Lester Caine]

(remember to check address!)
Peter Wendorff wrote:

If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it?
>>The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so
>>IMHO it's missing there, isn't it?

>
>They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate properties.
>The more relevant call for uploading data is
>http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset
>.2F.23id.2Fupload.
>I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation.
>
>

Sounds inconsistent nevertheless: updating a single object using PUT
/api/0.6/[node|way|relation]/#id is not possible when referring to a
deleted object, but updating the same object using diff is.

If nobody complains, I'll add a hint to the section referring to the
diff upload section, and a hint that diff uploads may be used for real
reverts, too.


At the end of the day, nothing is ACTUALLY deleted. Currently a copy is retained 
in the changelog and that is simply used to 're-edit' changes so that as has 
been said a new version is created matching the last but one version. The API 
does not prevent using a 'deleted' node or way number so all of the change log 
history can be retained. But this is where maintaining historic records creates 
a problem. Only one copy of an object is maintained in the main live data, so 
accessing a previous 'view' say prior to a realignment of a road fails because 
it has the same way number. Using start and end dates to select a particular 
view is not supported ...


This is where 'delete' is the wrong concept. Currently it just means it's made 
invisible and there is no reason it can't simply be restored. What should be 
happening is that there should be a mechanism to tag the reason for the 'change 
of state' and changes that are due to historic development need to be made 
available via a different route. Since the start and end date tags already 
exist, managing these properly is long overdue, but it's moving records that now 
have an end date to a view of the database where that information can be used 
that is currently missing?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers

[Fabian Schmidt]

Am 24.08.13 schrieb Lester Caine:

See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same 
case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater.


In your last 5 changesets you deleted 7 nodes. You improved the quality of 
the map by deleting (and adding) nodes.


When you try a new editor or add a node by mistake, you might not want to 
save everything you added. So you need a way to delete them without 
throwing away all your changes.



Fabian.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 25.08.2013 11:42, schrieb Paul Norman:
>> From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de]
>>>
>> If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it?
>> The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so
>> IMHO it's missing there, isn't it?
> 
> They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate properties. 
> The more relevant call for uploading data is
> http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset
> .2F.23id.2Fupload. 
> I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation.
> 
> 
Sounds inconsistent nevertheless: updating a single object using PUT
/api/0.6/[node|way|relation]/#id is not possible when referring to a
deleted object, but updating the same object using diff is.

If nobody complains, I'll add a hint to the section referring to the
diff upload section, and a hint that diff uploads may be used for real
reverts, too.

regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Paul Norman]

> From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de]
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
> 
> Am 25.08.2013 11:11, schrieb Paul Norman:
> >> From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de]
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:57 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
> >>
> >> If you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as
> >> new objects. There is no real undeletion in the API, so all revert
> >> tools only can revert objects that still exist. Deleted objects are
> >> not undeleted, but recreated (see [1] and the explanation for error
> >> code
> > 412).
> >
> > This is incorrect - revert tools can turn a deleted object into a
> > visible one.
> > So can any user for that matter - it's not like they have any special
> > access.
> >
> > Error 412 is not relevant when reverting in the correct order and
> > there are no conflicts with other edits in the area.
> >
> >
> If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it?
> The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so
> IMHO it's missing there, isn't it?

They upload a new version of the object with the appropriate properties. 
The more relevant call for uploading data is
http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Diff_upload:_POST_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2Fchangeset
.2F.23id.2Fupload. 
I don't see anything that needs adding to the documentation.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/8/25 Steve Bennett 

> Hi,
>   Just wondering what tools you use to "keep an eye on" that area? I'd
> love to have a better idea of what other editors are doing in my area.
>



I'm using IFTTT to get an email from the rss-feeds created by Pascal Neis'
new mappers service. The feed is here (adjust the coordinates to your
needs):
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmfeed.php?lon=12.5&lat=41.86°=1
and an example recipe is here: https://ifttt.com/recipes/76850

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 25.08.2013 11:11, schrieb Paul Norman:
>> From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de]
>> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
>>
>> If you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as 
>> new objects. There is no real undeletion in the API, so all revert 
>> tools only can revert objects that still exist. Deleted objects are 
>> not undeleted, but recreated (see [1] and the explanation for error code
> 412).
> 
> This is incorrect - revert tools can turn a deleted object into a visible
> one.
> So can any user for that matter - it's not like they have any special
> access.
> 
> Error 412 is not relevant when reverting in the correct order and there are
> no 
> conflicts with other edits in the area.
> 
> 
If so, then sorry for that - but is there any documentation about it?
The API description in the wiki does not mention anything like that, so
IMHO it's missing there, isn't it?

regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/8/25 Peter Wendorff 

> >> The revert tools just do a delete.
> >
> > I hope not!
> > They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to
> > use that to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert
> > rolled all the nodes back to their correct position.
>
> I fear, your hope is worthless.
> Sure: After the revert the state of the map (without history) is the
> same as before the reverted change, but if you revert a deletion the old
> nodes aren't re-used, but created as new objects.




no, this is not true, the deleted objects ids are indeed reused and the
same object is recreated (but a new version is created, the deletion
remains of course in history), example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1098346508/history

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Paul Norman]

> From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de]
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
> 
> If you revert a deletion the old nodes aren't re-used, but created as 
> new objects. There is no real undeletion in the API, so all revert 
> tools only can revert objects that still exist. Deleted objects are 
> not undeleted, but recreated (see [1] and the explanation for error code
412).

This is incorrect - revert tools can turn a deleted object into a visible
one.
So can any user for that matter - it's not like they have any special
access.

Error 412 is not relevant when reverting in the correct order and there are
no 
conflicts with other edits in the area.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Paul Norman]

> From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
> 
> Paul Norman wrote:
> >> Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly
> >> >handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the
> >> >right tool!
> > The revert tools just do a delete.
> 
> I hope not!
> They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to
> use that to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert
> rolled all the nodes back to their correct position.

Vandalism is generally creating objects that don't exist, so in most cases 
they end up deleting. If you're talking about different types of vandalism, 
odds are it wouldn't be deleted.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 25.08.2013 10:17, schrieb Lester Caine:
> Paul Norman wrote:
>>> Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly
>>> >handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the
>>> right
>>> >tool!
>> The revert tools just do a delete.
> 
> I hope not!
> They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to
> use that to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert
> rolled all the nodes back to their correct position.

I fear, your hope is worthless.
Sure: After the revert the state of the map (without history) is the
same as before the reverted change, but if you revert a deletion the old
nodes aren't re-used, but created as new objects. There is no real
undeletion in the API, so all revert tools only can revert objects that
still exist. Deleted objects are not undeleted, but recreated (see [1]
and the explanation for error code 412).

regards
Peter

[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Update:_PUT_.2Fapi.2F0.6.2F.5Bnode.7Cway.7Crelation.5D.2F.23id


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers

[Steve Bennett]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 9:36 PM, SomeoneElse wrote:

> In an attempt to put some numbers to to the "errors made by new mappers"
> debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use for
> they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of Wales, not
> including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and the south-east)
>
>>
>>
Hi,
  Just wondering what tools you use to "keep an eye on" that area? I'd love
to have a better idea of what other editors are doing in my area.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Lester Caine]

Paul Norman wrote:

Case 3 ... vandalism creating havoc ... this can only be correctly
>handled by reverting the change set ... a delete button is not the right
>tool!

The revert tools just do a delete.


I hope not!
They roll back to the previous version of an object. I've just had to use that 
to fix a problem id created with a commit I had pushed. Revert rolled all the 
nodes back to their correct position.


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