[OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Christian Quest]

Here is a hort report on this experiment...

I started a week ago by searching OSM France tile server logs for 
referer and checked manually if the map on the refering page was 
correctly attributed.


This allowed me to create a short list of 20 entries of sites using the 
french styled tiles and the humanitarian tiles (yes, it is made by OSM 
France).



I then modified our nginx based proxy_cache configuration, to redirect 
some tiles to an "attribution tile" only for the domain in the list.


For two of them, I tweeted about it... the most visible one is the 
moroco yellow page service, generating a little less than a million 
daily tile requests on our servers.


https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234516075695525888

In less than 24 hours, the attribution appeared and I removed them from 
the list.


https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234779931537739776


Then I included an email address in the attribution reminder tile... and 
got emails back within a few hours.


Some were asking how to do the attribution, others telling me the 
attribution was now ok and asking how to remove the reminder tiles.


In my answers, I also remind that our tile service made by volunteers on 
donated hardware is not unlimited and inviting them to have a look at 
switch2osm to setup their own tile server or use a commercial provider.


Up to now, nobody complained :)


Yesterday, I've started automating attribution checking using selenium. 
For each referer, a python script loads the page, searches for tiles, 
then looks for attribution text or link. The result is stored in a 
postgresql database which allows to group referers by url, hostname and ip.


The attribution percentage I currently see is around 70-80% which is not 
that bad.


My next major step is to use the same technique to remind about tile 
usage policy...



To do something similar on osm.org, a first step is to extract referers 
from the cache logs, then use the automated attribution check to 
evaluate the situation.



Le 08/03/2020 à 01:52, Nuno Caldeira a écrit :
That would be a good option for those that use third party providers 
of OSM. But to be honest, from my experience I highly doubt that even 
corporate members of OSMF, like Mapbox would do it, when their client 
Facebook (also corporate member of OSMF) after one year and half, 
still has maps with lack of attribution or attributed to HERE, when 
it's clearly OSM.


On Sun, 8 Mar 2020, 00:46 Phil Wyatt, > wrote:


I am sure others may have seen this 'blacklist' implementation for
showing a reminder about attribution.

https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234528717604577282

Worthy of consideration for openstreetmap.org
?

Cheers - Phil


--
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Yves]

This looks at first as a nuisance that could be perceived as a bad move, but 
the feedback you're receiving rather prove the contrary.
Well done!
Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it for 
Opensnowmap tiles policy? 

Le 8 mars 2020 10:14:58 GMT+01:00, Christian Quest  a 
écrit :
>Here is a hort report on this experiment...
>
>I started a week ago by searching OSM France tile server logs for 
>referer and checked manually if the map on the refering page was 
>correctly attributed.
>
>This allowed me to create a short list of 20 entries of sites using the
>
>french styled tiles and the humanitarian tiles (yes, it is made by OSM 
>France).
>
>
>I then modified our nginx based proxy_cache configuration, to redirect 
>some tiles to an "attribution tile" only for the domain in the list.
>
>For two of them, I tweeted about it... the most visible one is the 
>moroco yellow page service, generating a little less than a million 
>daily tile requests on our servers.
>
>https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234516075695525888
>
>In less than 24 hours, the attribution appeared and I removed them from
>
>the list.
>
>https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234779931537739776
>
>
>Then I included an email address in the attribution reminder tile...
>and 
>got emails back within a few hours.
>
>Some were asking how to do the attribution, others telling me the 
>attribution was now ok and asking how to remove the reminder tiles.
>
>In my answers, I also remind that our tile service made by volunteers
>on 
>donated hardware is not unlimited and inviting them to have a look at 
>switch2osm to setup their own tile server or use a commercial provider.
>
>Up to now, nobody complained :)
>
>
>Yesterday, I've started automating attribution checking using selenium.
>
>For each referer, a python script loads the page, searches for tiles, 
>then looks for attribution text or link. The result is stored in a 
>postgresql database which allows to group referers by url, hostname and
>ip.
>
>The attribution percentage I currently see is around 70-80% which is
>not 
>that bad.
>
>My next major step is to use the same technique to remind about tile 
>usage policy...
>
>
>To do something similar on osm.org, a first step is to extract referers
>
>from the cache logs, then use the automated attribution check to 
>evaluate the situation.
>
>
>Le 08/03/2020 à 01:52, Nuno Caldeira a écrit :
>> That would be a good option for those that use third party providers 
>> of OSM. But to be honest, from my experience I highly doubt that even
>
>> corporate members of OSMF, like Mapbox would do it, when their client
>
>> Facebook (also corporate member of OSMF) after one year and half, 
>> still has maps with lack of attribution or attributed to HERE, when 
>> it's clearly OSM.
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Mar 2020, 00:46 Phil Wyatt, > > wrote:
>>
>> I am sure others may have seen this 'blacklist' implementation
>for
>> showing a reminder about attribution.
>>
>> https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234528717604577282
>>
>> Worthy of consideration for openstreetmap.org
>> ?
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
>-- 
>Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Simon Poole]

Just for the record:

Enforcing attribution for services that you are providing directly (aka
tiles in some form) only has a small overlap with the goals of the
attribution guideline, and the avenues open to you depend on your ToUs /
contracts with your users and the legal situation in the countries you
are providing the service in.

I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately defaces a
web site without consulting with a local (to the country the web site is
in) lawyer, particularly if the message implies wrong doing. The safe, I
admit also the less fun, option, is to simply block access after giving
any required notice.

Simon 

Am 08.03.2020 um 11:04 schrieb Yves:
> This looks at first as a nuisance that could be perceived as a bad
> move, but the feedback you're receiving rather prove the contrary.
> Well done!
> Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it for
> Opensnowmap tiles policy?
>
> Le 8 mars 2020 10:14:58 GMT+01:00, Christian Quest
>  a écrit :
>
> Here is a hort report on this experiment...
>
> I started a week ago by searching OSM France tile server logs for
> referer and checked manually if the map on the refering page was
> correctly attributed.
>
> This allowed me to create a short list of 20 entries of sites
> using the french styled tiles and the humanitarian tiles (yes, it
> is made by OSM France).
>
>
> I then modified our nginx based proxy_cache configuration, to
> redirect some tiles to an "attribution tile" only for the domain
> in the list.
>
> For two of them, I tweeted about it... the most visible one is the
> moroco yellow page service, generating a little less than a
> million daily tile requests on our servers.
>
> https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234516075695525888
>
> In less than 24 hours, the attribution appeared and I removed them
> from the list.
>
> https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234779931537739776
>
>
> Then I included an email address in the attribution reminder
> tile... and got emails back within a few hours.
>
> Some were asking how to do the attribution, others telling me the
> attribution was now ok and asking how to remove the reminder tiles.
>
> In my answers, I also remind that our tile service made by
> volunteers on donated hardware is not unlimited and inviting them
> to have a look at switch2osm to setup their own tile server or use
> a commercial provider.
>
> Up to now, nobody complained :)
>
>
> Yesterday, I've started automating attribution checking using
> selenium. For each referer, a python script loads the page,
> searches for tiles, then looks for attribution text or link. The
> result is stored in a postgresql database which allows to group
> referers by url, hostname and ip.
>
> The attribution percentage I currently see is around 70-80% which
> is not that bad.
>
> My next major step is to use the same technique to remind about
> tile usage policy...
>
>
> To do something similar on osm.org, a first step is to extract
> referers from the cache logs, then use the automated attribution
> check to evaluate the situation.
>
>
> Le 08/03/2020 à 01:52, Nuno Caldeira a écrit :
>> That would be a good option for those that use third party
>> providers of OSM. But to be honest, from my experience I highly
>> doubt that even corporate members of OSMF, like Mapbox would do
>> it, when their client Facebook (also corporate member of OSMF)
>> after one year and half, still has maps with lack of attribution
>> or attributed to HERE, when it's clearly OSM. 
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Mar 2020, 00:46 Phil Wyatt, > > wrote:
>>
>> I am sure others may have seen this 'blacklist'
>> implementation for showing a reminder about attribution.
>>
>> https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234528717604577282
>>
>> Worthy of consideration for openstreetmap.org
>> ?
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
> -- 
> Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Christian Quest]

Le 08/03/2020 à 12:12, Simon Poole a écrit :


Just for the record:

Enforcing attribution for services that you are providing directly 
(aka tiles in some form) only has a small overlap with the goals of 
the attribution guideline, and the avenues open to you depend on your 
ToUs / contracts with your users and the legal situation in the 
countries you are providing the service in.


It simply demonstrates that as a tile provider, you can technically 
detect lack of attribution and enforce it.



I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately defaces 
a web site without consulting with a local (to the country the web 
site is in) lawyer, particularly if the message implies wrong doing. 
The safe, I admit also the less fun, option, is to simply block access 
after giving any required notice.


Giving notice is ususally difficult. Contact emails are not read or 
people reading them do not know how to handle it, who to forward it to, 
etc...


These attribution reminder tiles are a (highly) visible notice and just 
1 tile out of 25... 96% of the basemap is there (now partially attributed).


Maybe changing the wording to "It looks like this site forgot to put the 
required attribution in this map corner, so we added it for them. Thx 
for using OpenStreetMap !" ? ;)



--
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #502 2020-02-25-2020-03-02

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 502,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/12950/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Yves]

To me, the most important in attribution is to make potential contributors 
aware of the project. So the overlap is not that small in this regard. 

Yves 

Le 8 mars 2020 12:12:48 GMT+01:00, Simon Poole  a écrit :
>Just for the record:
>
>Enforcing attribution for services that you are providing directly (aka
>tiles in some form) only has a small overlap with the goals of the
>attribution guideline, and the avenues open to you depend on your ToUs
>/
>contracts with your users and the legal situation in the countries you
>are providing the service in.
>
>I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately defaces a
>web site without consulting with a local (to the country the web site
>is
>in) lawyer, particularly if the message implies wrong doing. The safe,
>I
>admit also the less fun, option, is to simply block access after giving
>any required notice.
>
>Simon 
>
>Am 08.03.2020 um 11:04 schrieb Yves:
>> This looks at first as a nuisance that could be perceived as a bad
>> move, but the feedback you're receiving rather prove the contrary.
>> Well done!
>> Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it
>for
>> Opensnowmap tiles policy?
>>
>> Le 8 mars 2020 10:14:58 GMT+01:00, Christian Quest
>>  a écrit :
>>
>> Here is a hort report on this experiment...
>>
>> I started a week ago by searching OSM France tile server logs for
>> referer and checked manually if the map on the refering page was
>> correctly attributed.
>>
>> This allowed me to create a short list of 20 entries of sites
>> using the french styled tiles and the humanitarian tiles (yes, it
>> is made by OSM France).
>>
>>
>> I then modified our nginx based proxy_cache configuration, to
>> redirect some tiles to an "attribution tile" only for the domain
>> in the list.
>>
>> For two of them, I tweeted about it... the most visible one is
>the
>> moroco yellow page service, generating a little less than a
>> million daily tile requests on our servers.
>>
>> https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234516075695525888
>>
>> In less than 24 hours, the attribution appeared and I removed
>them
>> from the list.
>>
>> https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234779931537739776
>>
>>
>> Then I included an email address in the attribution reminder
>> tile... and got emails back within a few hours.
>>
>> Some were asking how to do the attribution, others telling me the
>> attribution was now ok and asking how to remove the reminder
>tiles.
>>
>> In my answers, I also remind that our tile service made by
>> volunteers on donated hardware is not unlimited and inviting them
>> to have a look at switch2osm to setup their own tile server or
>use
>> a commercial provider.
>>
>> Up to now, nobody complained :)
>>
>>
>> Yesterday, I've started automating attribution checking using
>> selenium. For each referer, a python script loads the page,
>> searches for tiles, then looks for attribution text or link. The
>> result is stored in a postgresql database which allows to group
>> referers by url, hostname and ip.
>>
>> The attribution percentage I currently see is around 70-80% which
>> is not that bad.
>>
>> My next major step is to use the same technique to remind about
>> tile usage policy...
>>
>>
>> To do something similar on osm.org, a first step is to extract
>> referers from the cache logs, then use the automated attribution
>> check to evaluate the situation.
>>
>>
>> Le 08/03/2020 à 01:52, Nuno Caldeira a écrit :
>>> That would be a good option for those that use third party
>>> providers of OSM. But to be honest, from my experience I highly
>>> doubt that even corporate members of OSMF, like Mapbox would do
>>> it, when their client Facebook (also corporate member of OSMF)
>>> after one year and half, still has maps with lack of attribution
>>> or attributed to HERE, when it's clearly OSM. 
>>>
>>> On Sun, 8 Mar 2020, 00:46 Phil Wyatt, >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> I am sure others may have seen this 'blacklist'
>>> implementation for showing a reminder about attribution.
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234528717604577282
>>>
>>> Worthy of consideration for openstreetmap.org
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Cheers - Phil
>>>
>> -- 
>> Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

On 08/03/2020 05:04, Yves wrote:
Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it for 
Opensnowmap tiles policy? 

On 08/03/2020 06:12, Simon Poole wrote:

anything that deliberately defaces a web site

On 08/03/2020 07:13, Christian Quest wrote:

just 1 tile out of 25


very interesting experiment, and very amusing results.  bravo.

I would say that 1 in 25 is low enough as not to be considered 
"defacing" a web site.  what text have you used, concretely, which had 
the impact you describe?  in my opinion the shortest, the better, and I 
guess you did NOT use »It looks like this site forgot to put the 
required attribution in this map corner, so we added it for them. Thx 
for using OpenStreetMap !«, did you?  it was in French, wasn't it?


my best guess would be nothing else than the attribution text, and some 
help to solve their situation, or to get in contact with you.


I absolutely share the point of view "contact emails lead to no 
contact", and the "whatever works" policy.  this seem to work, so again, 
chapeau!


indeed, it would be interesting to see your nginx partial redirect.

MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Christian Quest]

Here are a few examples:

http://www.ardennes-neige.be/
http://autogas-network.co.uk/
http://mapa.guadalajara.gob.mx/basura
http://vivenda.hercesa.ro/
https://www.visitarnhem.com/routes/wandelroutes

The reminder tiles is in available english and french:

https://tilecache.openstreetmap.fr/attribution-en.png
https://tilecache.openstreetmap.fr/attribution-fr.png

I mix both at different locations on the maps.

Automatic attribution checking for one day of log files now takes around 
20 minutes.


I'll clean the nginx config file and share it.


Le 08/03/2020 à 15:05, Mario Frasca a écrit :

On 08/03/2020 05:04, Yves wrote:
Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it 
for Opensnowmap tiles policy? 

On 08/03/2020 06:12, Simon Poole wrote:

anything that deliberately defaces a web site

On 08/03/2020 07:13, Christian Quest wrote:

just 1 tile out of 25


very interesting experiment, and very amusing results.  bravo.

I would say that 1 in 25 is low enough as not to be considered 
"defacing" a web site.  what text have you used, concretely, which had 
the impact you describe?  in my opinion the shortest, the better, and 
I guess you did NOT use »It looks like this site forgot to put the 
required attribution in this map corner, so we added it for them. Thx 
for using OpenStreetMap !«, did you?  it was in French, wasn't it?


my best guess would be nothing else than the attribution text, and 
some help to solve their situation, or to get in contact with you.


I absolutely share the point of view "contact emails lead to no 
contact", and the "whatever works" policy.  this seem to work, so 
again, chapeau!


indeed, it would be interesting to see your nginx partial redirect.

MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


--
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

well, it does look slightly invasive … I had imagined something like a 
transparent text on top of the requested tile.  doing it the way you are 
doing it, you are removing part of the underlying information.  it is 
true that the user can zoom in or out, and the chance that the same are 
is also hidden is, as you state, 4%, but still. … did you experiment 
with a transparency added on top of the requested tile?  that's how I 
would probably do it, and I would only use the lower text, not the top 
icon and bold text, using a smooth opaque mask to make sure the text 
stays well visible, separated from the background.


in practice, I would only add what they need to add themselves, and not 
remove anything.


On 08/03/2020 09:39, Christian Quest wrote:

Here are a few examples:

http://www.ardennes-neige.be/
http://autogas-network.co.uk/
http://mapa.guadalajara.gob.mx/basura
http://vivenda.hercesa.ro/
https://www.visitarnhem.com/routes/wandelroutes

The reminder tiles is in available english and french:

https://tilecache.openstreetmap.fr/attribution-en.png
https://tilecache.openstreetmap.fr/attribution-fr.png

I mix both at different locations on the maps.

Automatic attribution checking for one day of log files now takes 
around 20 minutes.


I'll clean the nginx config file and share it.


Le 08/03/2020 à 15:05, Mario Frasca a écrit :

On 08/03/2020 05:04, Yves wrote:
Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it 
for Opensnowmap tiles policy? 

On 08/03/2020 06:12, Simon Poole wrote:

anything that deliberately defaces a web site

On 08/03/2020 07:13, Christian Quest wrote:

just 1 tile out of 25


very interesting experiment, and very amusing results.  bravo.

I would say that 1 in 25 is low enough as not to be considered 
"defacing" a web site.  what text have you used, concretely, which 
had the impact you describe?  in my opinion the shortest, the better, 
and I guess you did NOT use »It looks like this site forgot to put 
the required attribution in this map corner, so we added it for them. 
Thx for using OpenStreetMap !«, did you?  it was in French, wasn't it?


my best guess would be nothing else than the attribution text, and 
some help to solve their situation, or to get in contact with you.


I absolutely share the point of view "contact emails lead to no 
contact", and the "whatever works" policy.  this seem to work, so 
again, chapeau!


indeed, it would be interesting to see your nginx partial redirect.

MF


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Mario,

Am 08/03/2020 um 16.00 schrieb Mario Frasca:
> well, it does look slightly invasive … I had imagined something like a
> transparent text on top of the requested tile.  doing it the way you are
> doing it, you are removing part of the underlying information.

A transparent overlay requires calling Imagemagick or a similar tool for
each tile and to cache the results. It makes the setup more complicated
and requires more processing power. Should we spend even more volunteer
time and donations on abusers? No.

Best regards

Michael



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Christian Quest]

Le 08/03/2020 à 16:00, Mario Frasca a écrit :

well, it does look slightly invasive …



That's the goal... slightly invasive... and not time consuming for the 
tile server and myself.


Please, don't forget who's wrong here.


--
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

Hi Michael and Christian,

I don't know if there's any other way than going through imagemagick, if 
that's the only way, then sure it would cause extra work on (y)our 
servers.  if that's too much, let the server manager measure and decide.


my approach was trying to find a solution to the problem raised by Simon 
Poole, not to deface any web site relying on OSM.  or we would put the 
wrongdoing on our side.


but then, that was what just »I would probably do« … maybe after half an 
hour spent on trying to do it this way, I would fall back to Christian's 
way.


"whatever works"

btw, Christian, you are measuring the effects of your action, and the 
timings.  you started with 20 "abusers", you got immediate effect on 
some, then you added the email address in the tile, and got more 
results, how far are you now?  and what further steps does your team plan?


ciao,

Mario

On 08/03/2020 10:11, Michael Reichert wrote:

Hi Mario,

Am 08/03/2020 um 16.00 schrieb Mario Frasca:

well, it does look slightly invasive … I had imagined something like a
transparent text on top of the requested tile.  doing it the way you are
doing it, you are removing part of the underlying information.

A transparent overlay requires calling Imagemagick or a similar tool for
each tile and to cache the results. It makes the setup more complicated
and requires more processing power. Should we spend even more volunteer
time and donations on abusers? No.

Best regards

Michael


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Pierre Béland via talk]

You could use the navigator user language preference for the language to use 
for the message.

 
Pierre 
 

Le dimanche 8 mars 2020 11 h 40 min 47 s UTC−4, Christian Quest 
 a écrit :  
 
 Le 08/03/2020 à 16:00, Mario Frasca a écrit :
> well, it does look slightly invasive …


That's the goal... slightly invasive... and not time consuming for the 
tile server and myself.

Please, don't forget who's wrong here.


-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
  ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

On 08/03/2020 04:14, Christian Quest wrote:
the most visible one is the moroco yellow page service, generating a 
little less than a million daily tile requests on our servers.

On 08/03/2020 10:42, Mario Frasca wrote:

what further steps does your team plan?


for example with the above heavy user?

just an attribution, that's still not enough, is it?

Mario


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Greg Troxel]

Mario Frasca  writes:

> I would say that 1 in 25 is low enough as not to be considered
> "defacing" a web site.  what text have you used, concretely, which had
> the impact you describe?  in my opinion the shortest, the better, and
> I guess you did NOT use »It looks like this site forgot to put the
> required attribution in this map corner, so we added it for them. Thx
> for using OpenStreetMap !«, did you?  it was in French, wasn't it?

Also, I have seen on many sites google maps with an "API Key Required"
watermark.  This really seems like a similar situation.

So perhaps Christian could put a fairly loud attribution watermark over
the tiles, so it's basically functional but attributed.

Overall, I think this is a great experiment, and the combination of
failure to attribute and use of donated tile services is particularly
worthy of addressing.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Mar 8, 2020, 12:12 by si...@poole.ch:

>
> I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately  defaces a 
> web site without consulting with a local (to the country  the web site is 
> in) lawyer, particularly if the message implies  wrong doing.
>
>
Illegal use of OSM data and violating terms of use of service is a clear wrong 
doing.

I am not a lawyer, but showing message informing about violating license and 
terms of use of service seems 100% OK in case of website actually violating
OSM license.
And I fully support websites doing this.

Is there anything that would actually make it illegal, unethical or wrong in 
any way?
If yes I would be happy to learn about it.

It is not like they were serving tile images with lies or untrue claims. Or 
actually defacing
website by serving tile images with shock content like gore, nudity or extreme 
statements.
And I would not support doing this.   
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Mar 8, 2020, 20:26 by talk@openstreetmap.org:

>
> Mar 8, 2020, 12:12 by si...@poole.ch:
>
>>
>> I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately  defaces a 
>> web site without consulting with a local (to the country  the web site 
>> is in) lawyer, particularly if the message implies  wrong doing.
>>
>>
> Illegal use of OSM data and violating terms of use of service is a clear 
> wrong doing.
>
> I am not a lawyer, but showing message informing about violating license and 
> terms of use of service seems 100% OK in case of website actually violating
> OSM license.
> And I fully support websites doing this.
>
To be more clear: I fully support action like OSM France to actually enforce
license requirements using methods like described here or by a legal action like
DMCA takedown notices against entities refusing to show a proper attribution.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Mar 8, 2020, 16:42 by ma...@anche.no:

>
> not to deface any web site relying on OSM.  or we  would put the 
> wrongdoing on our side.
>
>
Enforcing attribution requirements is not wrongdoing.

It is something that we should do more, and this specific method is very 
friendly.
Map is mostly functional and they have chance to fix the problem
and get back their free tiles fully functional.

And site relying on OSM is obligated to attribute OSM.

OSM France is not obligated to provide free tile servers,
especially to people violating OSM license.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Nuno Caldeira]

Hi highly doubt that's even "defacing" a website. Google does it
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50977913/google-maps-shows-for-development-purposes-only
Attribute or leave it.

I too applause OSM FR attitude towards these license infringement. Seems,
judging by the previous board denial to cease Facebook rights under ODbL
that I requested last year, OSM FR is actually taking action instead of
delaying action like OSMF does (even towards their corporate members to
which we should be the firsts to show support to OSM by proudly
attributing).

On Sun, 8 Mar 2020, 19:28 Mateusz Konieczny via talk, <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> Mar 8, 2020, 12:12 by si...@poole.ch:
>
> I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately defaces a
> web site without consulting with a local (to the country the web site is
> in) lawyer, particularly if the message implies wrong doing.
>
> Illegal use of OSM data and violating terms of use of service is a clear
> wrong doing.
>
> I am not a lawyer, but showing message informing about violating license
> and
> terms of use of service seems 100% OK in case of website actually violating
> OSM license.
> And I fully support websites doing this.
>
> Is there anything that would actually make it illegal, unethical or wrong
> in any way?
> If yes I would be happy to learn about it.
>
> It is not like they were serving tile images with lies or untrue claims.
> Or actually defacing
> website by serving tile images with shock content like gore, nudity or
> extreme statements.
> And I would not support doing this.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Pierre Béland via talk]

 
Pierre 
 

   Mar.8, 2020 1byMateusz Konieczny 

> To be more clear: I fully support action like OSM France to actually enforce
> license requirements using methods like described here or by a legal action 
> like
> DMCA takedown notices against entities refusing to show a proper attribution.
  I also support such actions. To be less intrusive and more diplomatic, the 
box could be smaller and semi transparent, and the text rewrittten to be more 
specific What's about something like ? 

- WARNING : OSM Attribution is required for these tile products
- These OSM tiles are downloaded from openstreetmap-France tile server 
   without this website providing any visible attribution
- See https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
- Contact us at ti...@openstreetmap.fr

Mar 8, 2020, 20:26 by talk@openstreetmap.org:


Mar 8, 2020, 12:12 by si...@poole.ch:


I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately defaces a web 
site without consulting with a local (to the country the web site is in) 
lawyer, particularly if the message implies wrong doing.


Illegal use of OSM data and violating terms of use of service is a clear wrong 
doing.

I am not a lawyer, but showing message informing about violating license and 
terms of use of service seems 100% OK in case of website actually violating
OSM license.
And I fully support websites doing this.

To be more clear: I fully support action like OSM France to actually enforce
license requirements using methods like described here or by a legal action like
DMCA takedown notices against entities refusing to show a proper attribution.
 ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
  ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

On 08/03/2020 15:15, Pierre Béland via talk wrote:

semi transparent


the problem here is technical.

I'm rewording here something that was said to me here today:

I don't think you can reply with a composite object (tile + 
transparency) to a request for a single image object.  for this, you 
need to either compute the tile on the fly, for example using 
imagemagick, or you need to keep a parallel tiles repository, with the 
transparency on top of the original tile.


technical, and economical, in terms of server space and the human action 
required.




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk