Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Hi Richard, >> I would appreciate to find my hotel in Girona: Joan Maragall, 10 - 17002 >> Girona > >Have a safe trip. > >http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.971787&mlon=2.783665&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF that is the WRONG place. Entering the address in OSM leads to the wrong place! There was too much emphasis on the trees ;-)) This is the right place: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.979925&mlon=2.821512&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF Thanks anyway and see you tomorrow. Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5265131.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 9:55 PM, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > >>Does that mean we should not import trees in towns like Girona? ( > http://osm.org/go/xu1ff...@- ) > > I would appreciate to find my hotel in Girona: Joan Maragall, 10 - 17002 > Girona Have a safe trip. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.971787&mlon=2.783665&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>Does that mean we should not import trees in towns like Girona? ( http://osm.org/go/xu1ff...@- ) I would appreciate to find my hotel in Girona: Joan Maragall, 10 - 17002 Girona BTW (@Emilie): I like your post. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5262182.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
* David Earl [2010-07-05 10:38 +0100]: > Addresses are a bit different because its a whole different level of > detail. But because you don't think its fun doesn't mean others > don't enjoy it (or even do it because it is enjoyable). I did my > village to see what it would take, but in general I took the view > that I wanted to get complete street level / poi coverage for the > area reasonably within my reach before I started on the next level > of detail down. Interestingly, I don't gather a lot of POIs when surveying, because I'm usually not going to be returning to the survey areas to keep the POIs up to date. On the other hand, I try to scrupulously record all addresses, because in my opinion those have longer lifetimes than, say, your average strip mall shop. (This, of course, only reinforces the recurring theme of "OSM is different things to different people". As does the fact that I've been taking a break from surveying by mapping all the power lines in my state.) -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- /me pats his two indy's lovingly, don't listen to those nasty sun enthuasists boys, their machines are a dull nasty grey, not a nice pretty blue colour like you two. -- Greg McCarroll --- -- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 6 July 2010 09:48, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > > >As I said in my email it's > >straightforward to make plans for the future without needing a "goal". > >These plans can, and should, be based on what's happening, and > >therefore what we plan/expect will happen in the future. > > Absolutely in regards to plans, I just said that it should be triggered and > facilitated by the board to coordinate with other activities like funding, > for which a certain level of planning is a prerequisite rather sooner than > later. > > I do not agree that there doesn't need to be goal or vision. If I interpret > your recent mail to sourceforge correctly you see OpenStreetMap as "host > for > mapping projects". In this case the goal or vision would be something like > to "facilitate and encourage the creation maps for what purposes > whatsoever". Something like this would give people an umbrella and a better > understanding of what OpenStreetMap is about - and especially to > communicate > the project to the outside world. If you would ask ten people today what > openstreetmap is about you would get ten different answers, that is what > you > can also see from this thread. > Hello, That's actually one of the biggest strength of the OSM community to have 10 different visions of what OpenStreetMap is. The way OpenStreetMap has moved so far has been very beneficial to the vast ecosystems that we are now catering for. Everyone is seeing something different from the "map" as a map is something very personal and can be used in so many ways. Does that mean we should stop people doing orienteering map under the pretense that it is adding to much "useless" data? ( http://www.oobrien.com/oom/ ) Does that mean we should not import trees in towns like Girona? ( http://osm.org/go/xu1ff...@- ) Does that mean we have to stop mapping zoos, arboretum, ? Does that mean we have to stop doing humanitarian work too? Should we focus only on streets, streets details, etc... ? Each use of OSM is perfectly valid and no priority over another one. I think we are past the time where streets were the only thing that mattered. While I agree about the need of better communication, I think we should instead show everything we can do with OSM, whether routing, reverse geocoding, geocoding, specialized map rendering (Bikes, Roads, map for the blind, orienteering maps, etc...). OSM isn't just a replacement for TeleAtlas or Navteq. It is something in its own class now. I can understand why we might want to have the world covered in roads and have perfect addressing, but a crowded sourced project doesn't work that way. You can get a software open source project relatively focused (that will never stop people from adding non expected features), but this is not possible in OSM. You can of course try to do Week of France, where you get people to map a specific area, giving thematic for all those hungry mappers wanting to do something; you just can't direct them to do something in particular. Haiti is such an example: not everyone started mapping Haiti suddenly. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 6 July 2010 18:48, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > the project to the outside world. If you would ask ten people today what > openstreetmap is about you would get ten different answers, that is what you > can also see from this thread. If you asked those same 10 people what they want from a map, you'd probably still get 10 different answers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>As I said in my email it's >straightforward to make plans for the future without needing a "goal". >These plans can, and should, be based on what's happening, and >therefore what we plan/expect will happen in the future. Absolutely in regards to plans, I just said that it should be triggered and facilitated by the board to coordinate with other activities like funding, for which a certain level of planning is a prerequisite rather sooner than later. I do not agree that there doesn't need to be goal or vision. If I interpret your recent mail to sourceforge correctly you see OpenStreetMap as "host for mapping projects". In this case the goal or vision would be something like to "facilitate and encourage the creation maps for what purposes whatsoever". Something like this would give people an umbrella and a better understanding of what OpenStreetMap is about - and especially to communicate the project to the outside world. If you would ask ten people today what openstreetmap is about you would get ten different answers, that is what you can also see from this thread. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5259421.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > We have no idea what our financial needs are in the next year > because we haven't set any goals for next year. That's a complete non-sequitur. As I said in my email it's straightforward to make plans for the future without needing a "goal". These plans can, and should, be based on what's happening, and therefore what we plan/expect will happen in the future. The sysadmins can and do plan for when we need to purchase new hardware, and what it needs to be, to accommodate our projected growth. None of which needs some goal of the "we want to be the leading provider of whatnot" type. > But please give us money as > we might need some."? If that's how you are characterising the OSMF - if it doesn't have your "stategic goals" - then bear in mind you're insulting a lot of people who have successfully run OpenStreetMap for the last few years. Now don't take it from what I've said that having a goal would be somehow a bad thing, but your suggestions that we *need* a goal and we can't be successful or do planning or anything else without one is simply wrong. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 6 July 2010 17:22, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > I understand that is was decided by the OSMF board that funding is supposed > to become a more structured activity. What would you say to someone > interested in funding? "OpenStreetMap doesn't have a strategic goal; it's > never had one. We have no idea what our financial needs are in the next year > because we haven't set any goals for next year. But please give us money as > we might need some."? Or would you say that funding is supposed to be > postponed? Why do you think the only strategic planning that can be done is that which you are trying to coerce people into supporting based on what you'd like to see mapped? How about instead focusing on supporting mappers, rather than trying to direct their activities, for example does servers need to be upgraded or does capacity increased to support other actives like the routing Nic is doing... Are there more cool things OSM could be show casing if there was more hardware available? That sort of thing... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>That's not to say the Foundation shouldn't be planning ahead, but >there's a big difference between that and trying to come up with a >"vision". If we need a vision, a plan or anything like that (and >that's debatable anyway) then it's best for it to appear from the >bowels of the community, not be thrashed out at a OSMF board weekend >retreat. I understand that is was decided by the OSMF board that funding is supposed to become a more structured activity. What would you say to someone interested in funding? "OpenStreetMap doesn't have a strategic goal; it's never had one. We have no idea what our financial needs are in the next year because we haven't set any goals for next year. But please give us money as we might need some."? Or would you say that funding is supposed to be postponed? Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5259163.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>Would you stand for the sourceforge.net board and suggest that they >need to focus their efforts on only a few selective open-source >projects? I am quite surprised by this comparison: (a) sourcefourge is a tool that has nothing to do with the projects themselves (b) the projects are all independent while OpenStreetMap projects are all build on a common core and are derivatives of this core - much more like there is a linux for servers, mobile devices, embedded software etc. If the core isn't any good then the derivatives are no good. (c) the projects on sourceforge do not have to share development tools, infrastructure, funding, a license or communication. (d) if a project owner doesn't like sourceforge anymore he moves on. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5259131.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > And that is my whole point: I think it is much more important to distill the > strategic goals out of the community's mind and then focus the efforts on a > few selective initiates rather than having hundreds of parallel projects. Would you stand for the sourceforge.net board and suggest that they need to focus their efforts on only a few selective open-source projects? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > Oliver (skobbler) wrote: >> How do you want to find the right licensing, funding and communication >> approach (to avoid the word strategy) without having a strategic goal? > > By encouraging a welcoming, meritocratic environment in which talented > people are able to do cool things. It's worked extraordinarily well so far. Quite. And maybe the question should be "What do we want a Foundation for?". As far as I'm concerned, I don't want a foundation to be setting strategic goals for the rest of us - I want it to be there to do the supporting work that's needed like owning the domain names, raising funds for servers, covering our collective backs where needs be. Or generally acting like the guy on a building site who pours concrete in the ground to make the, well, foundations of the project - not the most glorious task, but you'll find the strategic goals and visionary statements elsewhere. That's not to say the Foundation shouldn't be planning ahead, but there's a big difference between that and trying to come up with a "vision". If we need a vision, a plan or anything like that (and that's debatable anyway) then it's best for it to appear from the bowels of the community, not be thrashed out at a OSMF board weekend retreat. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
2010/7/5 John Smith : > On 5 July 2010 19:29, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> actually I don't understand why so many people complain about mapping >> trees. Trees have generally a longer life cycle than buildings. I like >> trees and I like to have them in the map. Why should I map postboxes? >> I hardly send any letters. > > This whole thread is about the same reason why people complain about > others mapping trees, people have what they are interested in and > they'd like others to help map them so the map is more useful for > them. OK, honestly I also map postboxes. And telephone booths. And petrol stations. And parking lots. And I do have a mobile phone, no car and hardly send any letters ;-). I simply map as much as I can - some things with more passion, and others simply because they are there and every detail somehow helps in orienteering or helps someone else. But I don't want to wait mapping trees until all xy are mapped. I want to map now what I like. If a company wants a specific thing to be mapped with priority it could hire some mappers and pay them to do the work. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 5 July 2010 19:29, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: > actually I don't understand why so many people complain about mapping > trees. Trees have generally a longer life cycle than buildings. I like > trees and I like to have them in the map. Why should I map postboxes? > I hardly send any letters. This whole thread is about the same reason why people complain about others mapping trees, people have what they are interested in and they'd like others to help map them so the map is more useful for them. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 05/07/2010 10:29, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: if one is a cyclist with interest in cycling, she/he will not go out mapping parking lots or petrol stations just because someones declares that they are important. Well I'm a keen cyclist and don't have a car, but I still map petrol stations (and I don't eat meat but I still map steak restaurants). I'm using my bike as the best tool to make a systematic map, not because I'm a cyclist. It's terribly inefficient for one person to survey an area for petrol stations and another for restaurants. Addresses are a bit different because its a whole different level of detail. But because you don't think its fun doesn't mean others don't enjoy it (or even do it because it is enjoyable). I did my village to see what it would take, but in general I took the view that I wanted to get complete street level / poi coverage for the area reasonably within my reach before I started on the next level of detail down. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
2010/7/4 Oliver (skobbler) : > exclusive. I just say that the more projects there are, the longer it takes > to achieve a specific goal. if one is a cyclist with interest in cycling, she/he will not go out mapping parking lots or petrol stations just because someones declares that they are important. The same is for adresses: it is not much fun to map them, and therefore few people do it ;-) > if people map trees unless attributes with a wider use have been captured in > this region. I am pretty sure that some of these people who map trees would > be happy giving a hint what is important for the OpenStreetMap community and > map other elements instead. And until nobody tells them what is important > for the OpenStreetMap community they map what they think is right. actually I don't understand why so many people complain about mapping trees. Trees have generally a longer life cycle than buildings. I like trees and I like to have them in the map. Why should I map postboxes? I hardly send any letters. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Absolutely, and we will... in fact, I'm working on it right now. I just thought it was worth making the point that housenumbers are (in my humble opinion) key to enabling many wider applications of map data. Cheers b On 5 July 2010 14:32, John Smith wrote: > On 5 July 2010 12:37, Ben Last wrote: > > Geocoding isn't freely available (unless your needs are small-scale). > > Housenumbers are the key to geocoding addresses, and without geocoding > many > > useful applications of a map are lost, or at least made more difficult. > So > > I'm reasonably excited about housenumbers. > > And you may well be in one of the better positions to do something > about it more than most, especially if you go ahead with what you were > proposing recently. > -- Ben Last Development Manager (HyperWeb) NearMap Pty Ltd ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 5 July 2010 12:37, Ben Last wrote: > Geocoding isn't freely available (unless your needs are small-scale). > Housenumbers are the key to geocoding addresses, and without geocoding many > useful applications of a map are lost, or at least made more difficult. So > I'm reasonably excited about housenumbers. And you may well be in one of the better positions to do something about it more than most, especially if you go ahead with what you were proposing recently. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 5 July 2010 10:25, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't see any point in OSM duplicating much of what is already freely and > copiously available. OSM's uniqueness lies in it's ability to cater for > needs that are not otherwise met. It might be cycle maps or humanitarian > maps or maps for developing countries or even just post boxes, but I can't > see our community getting excited about house numbers. > > Geocoding isn't freely available (unless your needs are small-scale). Housenumbers are the key to geocoding addresses, and without geocoding many useful applications of a map are lost, or at least made more difficult. So I'm reasonably excited about housenumbers. -- Ben Last Development Manager (HyperWeb) NearMap Pty Ltd ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > Please do me a favor. Go to the homepage of OpenStreetMap and look if you > can find any hint to these passionate projects? Oliver Here are some links to passionate projects: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapping_projects The Latter Day Saints project is a surprise to me. I don't see an addressing project. Maybe Google already scratches that itch. I don't see any point in OSM duplicating much of what is already freely and copiously available. OSM's uniqueness lies in it's ability to cater for needs that are not otherwise met. It might be cycle maps or humanitarian maps or maps for developing countries or even just post boxes, but I can't see our community getting excited about house numbers. Back to mapping garden fences... 80n ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > How do you want to find the right licensing, funding and communication > approach (to avoid the word strategy) without having a strategic goal? By encouraging a welcoming, meritocratic environment in which talented people are able to do cool things. It's worked extraordinarily well so far. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5254079.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 5 July 2010 06:02, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > How do you want to find the right licensing, funding and communication > approach (to avoid the word strategy) without having a strategic goal? There is fundamental differences between facilitating volunteers and running a company, volunteers aren't paid and don't tend to do well being told what to do... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>OpenStreetMap doesn't have a strategic goal; it's never had one. How do you want to find the right licensing, funding and communication approach (to avoid the word strategy) without having a strategic goal? Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5254069.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>I don't think that you can just say if the strategic goal is to be a >mainstream map and other uses are distractions from this goal. There >are plenty of people who do not have the goal of the mainstream map as >their main mission. For example the time I spend working on things >for HOT, I'm not going to necessarily spend those hours mapping >addresses instead because I'm "wasting resources" by doing >humanitarian work. Also the "niche" projects I think help the greater >goal, more people find out about the project and start participating. >What those new people map is up to them. Please do me a favor. Go to the homepage of OpenStreetMap and look if you can find any hint to these passionate projects? I have never said that "mainstream" should be the strategic goal. I just say that people need to understand what OpenStreetMap is about and what's the vision of OpenStreetMap. Wouldn't is cool if the passion and the goals behind these projects would be clearly communicated? I always said the the goals needs to be distilled from the community's mind and not be invented. However, telling to the people that OpenStreetMap is everything to everybody won't lead any new contributor. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5254060.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
I don't think that you can just say if the strategic goal is to be a mainstream map and other uses are distractions from this goal. There are plenty of people who do not have the goal of the mainstream map as their main mission. For example the time I spend working on things for HOT, I'm not going to necessarily spend those hours mapping addresses instead because I'm "wasting resources" by doing humanitarian work. Also the "niche" projects I think help the greater goal, more people find out about the project and start participating. What those new people map is up to them. You can't really point most people towards a specific goal either, people aren't going to stop mapping trees if that is what they are interested in mapping. Some people will participate in a project of the week, but plenty of others will continue mapping whatever they wanted to map in the first place. Kate user:Wonderchook On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > >>> Some people might want to achieve a wider use for humanitarian >>> projects. Then address referencing won't help and a license change >>> won't change either. There needs to be common understanding of >>> the vision where OSM is seen in five years from now. >> >>No, there doesn't. >> >>You're talking about it as if these things are mutually exclusive. They're > not. >> >>OSM right now is the best map in the world for cycling _and_ the best map > in the world for humanitarian >use.[1] This hasn't required a single focus > on either; the focus comes because different people scratch >their own > itches. I want to see a world where people drive less, so I map the National > Cycle Network. >Many OSMers want to see help for Haiti, so they helped to > map Port-au-Prince. And so on. > > It might be true that OSM is the best map in the world for cycling and the > best map in the world for humanitarian use. If the higher goal of > OpenStreetMap is to become the best map for cycling and the best map for > humanitarian use I will not complain. I did not know that these are the > strategic goals of OpenStreetMap. However, if the strategic goal is to > become a mainstream map for example then the lack of focus will delay the > achievement of this goal. I am not stating that these projects are mutual > exclusive. I just say that the more projects there are, the longer it takes > to achieve a specific goal. > > >>You keep bringing up addressing because it's important for Skobbler (which, > incidentally, I think is a >superb product). But that doesn't require me to > stop mapping the NCN, or the HOT guys to stop mapping >Haiti. It certainly > doesn't require that OSM settles on a strategy to concentrate on one of > these three. >Rather, you - as the person who cares about it - simply need > to build some good tools and JFDI. > > Thanks for the flowers ;-) The skobbler turn-by-turn navigation is a > showcase projects. I has hit the top ten of the AppStore without having the > addressing in OSM fixed. As the market for turn-by-turn navigation has been > destroyed as the service has been made available for free by some large > players it won't be the product that will decide about skobbler's company > success. I say this because I am not repeating the address topic because of > personal interest. I repeat it because I know that every single user is > performing this confidence test of entering his home address in a search bar > and sees what happens - just because that his the region he can judge the > quality. I you are honest to yourself you see hardly anybody of your friends > using OpenStreetMap as their primary online map despite its excellent level > of map detail. > > My personal opinion is that the strengths of OpenStreetMap lies in the large > decentral knowledge. And I think it would make more sense to steer some of > this local power in a certain direction. I consider it a waste of resource > if people map trees unless attributes with a wider use have been captured in > this region. I am pretty sure that some of these people who map trees would > be happy giving a hint what is important for the OpenStreetMap community and > map other elements instead. And until nobody tells them what is important > for the OpenStreetMap community they map what they think is right. > > Regards, > Oliver > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5253909.html > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > It might be true that OSM is the best map in the world for cycling > and the best map in the world for humanitarian use. If the higher > goal of OpenStreetMap is to become the best map for cycling and > the best map for humanitarian use I will not complain. I did not > know that these are the strategic goals of OpenStreetMap. > However, if the strategic goal is to become a mainstream map > for example then the lack of focus will delay the achievement of > this goal. I do think you're missing the point a little. OpenStreetMap doesn't have a strategic goal; it's never had one. That's why it succeeds. We each have our own idea of a "mainstream map", and yours (as the guy who produces car navigation software) is clearly going to be different to mine (as a volunteer cycle route ranger). So when you say: > I you are honest to yourself you see hardly anybody of your friends > using OpenStreetMap as their primary online map despite its excellent > level of map detail. ...then I point you towards http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=63.0, the GPS board on the main UK cycling forum. OSM _is_ mainstream there. OSM is completely dominant. Google doesn't get a look-in. Car navigation? Mainstream? Tsk, you and your internal combustion engines are _so_ 20th century. ;) > I am not stating that these projects are mutual exclusive. I just say > that the more projects there are, the longer it takes to achieve a > specific goal. No. It doesn't. OSM is crowdsourced; the labour is not finite. We can always get new mappers without diverting our existing mappers from what they already enjoy. Right now OSM is entirely held back by problems of our own making; fix them (perhaps by integrating your lovely Skobbler bugs client into the core site!) and more mappers _will_ magically appear. But I'm not going to do addressing, however cool someone else thinks it is, because it really doesn't interest me; and I'm going to look pretty askance at any attempt to direct the OSM community towards it at the expense of cycling or humanitarian work or whatever. Changing OSM's ethos from "build the map that works for you" to "build the map that works for someone else" will end in tears. So how do you encourage people to do addressing? I'd say it comes down to this: you can support the mappers, and you can encourage them, but you can't direct them. You could bung a few hundred quid to CloudMade to encourage them to add addressing to Mapzen POI Collector, or build Mapzen Address Collector, or something. You could help, or sponsor, development of Nominatim so it reflects updates to addressing even more quickly. You could create a cool visualisation, like Matt's dupe nodes or some of the ITO stuff, to encourage people to fix up their local area. And so on. Stuff that will make people _want_ to add addresses. Why is OSM so good at cycle routes? Because Andy developed OpenCycleMap and Dave gave Potlatch a funky route relations UI. Not because we sat down and said "our strategy is all about cycle routes, and you will follow". You can't tell us what to do. But you can make it more inviting for us to work on something. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5254020.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>The problem here is people are better off doing what they find >interesting, if they are forced, or feel forced to go in a certain >direction they may tire or become bored and loose interest entirely in >OSM. If you understood that I say you should "force" or "tell" people what to map then this is completely wrong understanding. I said that you should tell them what is important for the community to excel in a certain area. It can be very inspiring and motivating to jointly pursue a goal if this leads to the fact that you become world class in that certain area. It would certainly free up some competitive spirit if it would be clear what is the area where you want to excel and against whom you are competing. The competitive spirit has been completely neglected so far. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5253977.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 5 July 2010 04:57, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > My personal opinion is that the strengths of OpenStreetMap lies in the large > decentral knowledge. And I think it would make more sense to steer some of > this local power in a certain direction. I consider it a waste of resource > if people map trees unless attributes with a wider use have been captured in > this region. I am pretty sure that some of these people who map trees would > be happy giving a hint what is important for the OpenStreetMap community and > map other elements instead. And until nobody tells them what is important > for the OpenStreetMap community they map what they think is right. The problem here is people are better off doing what they find interesting, if they are forced, or feel forced to go in a certain direction they may tire or become bored and loose interest entirely in OSM. If you want people to do something they're not interested in doing you will have to come up with greater incentives for them, but just telling them they should do it for the greater good isn't it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>> Some people might want to achieve a wider use for humanitarian >> projects. Then address referencing won't help and a license change >> won't change either. There needs to be common understanding of >> the vision where OSM is seen in five years from now. > >No, there doesn't. > >You're talking about it as if these things are mutually exclusive. They're not. > >OSM right now is the best map in the world for cycling _and_ the best map in the world for humanitarian >use.[1] This hasn't required a single focus on either; the focus comes because different people scratch >their own itches. I want to see a world where people drive less, so I map the National Cycle Network. >Many OSMers want to see help for Haiti, so they helped to map Port-au-Prince. And so on. It might be true that OSM is the best map in the world for cycling and the best map in the world for humanitarian use. If the higher goal of OpenStreetMap is to become the best map for cycling and the best map for humanitarian use I will not complain. I did not know that these are the strategic goals of OpenStreetMap. However, if the strategic goal is to become a mainstream map for example then the lack of focus will delay the achievement of this goal. I am not stating that these projects are mutual exclusive. I just say that the more projects there are, the longer it takes to achieve a specific goal. >You keep bringing up addressing because it's important for Skobbler (which, incidentally, I think is a >superb product). But that doesn't require me to stop mapping the NCN, or the HOT guys to stop mapping >Haiti. It certainly doesn't require that OSM settles on a strategy to concentrate on one of these three. >Rather, you - as the person who cares about it - simply need to build some good tools and JFDI. Thanks for the flowers ;-) The skobbler turn-by-turn navigation is a showcase projects. I has hit the top ten of the AppStore without having the addressing in OSM fixed. As the market for turn-by-turn navigation has been destroyed as the service has been made available for free by some large players it won't be the product that will decide about skobbler's company success. I say this because I am not repeating the address topic because of personal interest. I repeat it because I know that every single user is performing this confidence test of entering his home address in a search bar and sees what happens - just because that his the region he can judge the quality. I you are honest to yourself you see hardly anybody of your friends using OpenStreetMap as their primary online map despite its excellent level of map detail. My personal opinion is that the strengths of OpenStreetMap lies in the large decentral knowledge. And I think it would make more sense to steer some of this local power in a certain direction. I consider it a waste of resource if people map trees unless attributes with a wider use have been captured in this region. I am pretty sure that some of these people who map trees would be happy giving a hint what is important for the OpenStreetMap community and map other elements instead. And until nobody tells them what is important for the OpenStreetMap community they map what they think is right. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5253909.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > Some people might want to achieve a wider use for humanitarian > projects. Then address referencing won't help and a license change > won't change either. There needs to be common understanding of > the vision where OSM is seen in five years from now. No, there doesn't. You're talking about it as if these things are mutually exclusive. They're not. OSM right now is the best map in the world for cycling _and_ the best map in the world for humanitarian use.[1] This hasn't required a single focus on either; the focus comes because different people scratch their own itches. I want to see a world where people drive less, so I map the National Cycle Network. Many OSMers want to see help for Haiti, so they helped to map Port-au-Prince. And so on. You keep bringing up addressing because it's important for Skobbler (which, incidentally, I think is a superb product). But that doesn't require me to stop mapping the NCN, or the HOT guys to stop mapping Haiti. It certainly doesn't require that OSM settles on a strategy to concentrate on one of these three. Rather, you - as the person who cares about it - simply need to build some good tools and JFDI. cheers Richard [1] vast over-generalisation. Your locality may vary etc. etc. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5253717.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
2010/7/4 John F. Eldredge : > True, but paper maps are usually not printed at a scale where including > street numbers are practical. There are actually paper maps that include housenumbers (city scale) --- not all of them, but if you put them in intervalls it's usually good enough for what the searching person needs. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 5 July 2010 00:16, John F. Eldredge wrote: > True, but paper maps are usually not printed at a scale where including > street numbers are practical. Other than street directories? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
True, but paper maps are usually not printed at a scale where including street numbers are practical. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: John Smith Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 23:36:58 To: Cc: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona On 4 July 2010 23:00, John F. Eldredge wrote: > I agree about the importance of being able to find a location via its postal > address. One of the most frequent reasons for looking up a location on an > online map is so you can find out where on a long street a particular address > is located. This is one of the chief advantages that an online map has over > a paper map. That's just a rendering issue, paper maps could just as easily print the street numbers, digital map data does have it's unique advantages though, like integration with positioning information. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 4 July 2010 23:00, John F. Eldredge wrote: > I agree about the importance of being able to find a location via its postal > address. One of the most frequent reasons for looking up a location on an > online map is so you can find out where on a long street a particular address > is located. This is one of the chief advantages that an online map has over > a paper map. That's just a rendering issue, paper maps could just as easily print the street numbers, digital map data does have it's unique advantages though, like integration with positioning information. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
I agree about the importance of being able to find a location via its postal address. One of the most frequent reasons for looking up a location on an online map is so you can find out where on a long street a particular address is located. This is one of the chief advantages that an online map has over a paper map. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: "Oliver \(skobbler\)" Sender: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 01:22:01 To: Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona >>>I thought one of the goals was to have OSM used more widely? >> >> This is the right type of question but you need to create an even more >> basic >> understanding: I haven't seen a common understanding of the definition of >> OSM's success. Where did you find the goal of a wider use? Wider use by > >I didn't find it anywhere, but what's the point in having the best >maps in the world if no one uses them? If this is the case then I think it would be very important to push address referencing (more important than discussing a license change) as it is the natural confidence test: Can I find my home address on the map? So far, it is one of the weakest points as you normally don't find an address if you look for it by using a postal code or your house number. It works in a few large cities but that's it. If you can only zoom in to a specific place then you will use Google Maps the next time you are looking for specific address... And that is my whole point: I think it is much more important to distill the strategic goals out of the community's mind and then focus the efforts on a few selective initiates rather than having hundreds of parallel projects. Some people might want to achieve a wider use for humanitarian projects. Then address referencing won't help and a license change won't change either. There needs to be common understanding of the vision where OSM is seen in five years from now. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5252794.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 4 July 2010 18:28, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > It is because of other reasons that major companies are not using OSM. If companies already pay for data with more restrictive licenses than OSM offers, then I can only assume the license issue is just a sticking point because the data might not be perceived as good. Therefore I can only conclude that at some point the license will become a non-issue once the perception shifts that the data is good enough to replace commercial alternatives... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>The point is that *no* major company actually said, 'if you switch to >ODbL then we will use it', while it is a claim companies don't use OSM >because of cc-by-sa. The same is true for cc-by: No major company said 'if you switch to cc-by then we will use it'. Or do you have any evidence? In the majority of the cases for major companies it doesn't matter for companies if it is cc-by-sa or cc-by. To date all major companies are using Navteq, TeleAtlas or Google maps and they CANNOT CHANGE DATA AT ALL. This means they are just "consuming" it and therefore it doesn't make a difference if it cc-by-sa or cc-by. It is because of other reasons that major companies are not using OSM. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5252802.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>>>I thought one of the goals was to have OSM used more widely? >> >> This is the right type of question but you need to create an even more >> basic >> understanding: I haven't seen a common understanding of the definition of >> OSM's success. Where did you find the goal of a wider use? Wider use by > >I didn't find it anywhere, but what's the point in having the best >maps in the world if no one uses them? If this is the case then I think it would be very important to push address referencing (more important than discussing a license change) as it is the natural confidence test: Can I find my home address on the map? So far, it is one of the weakest points as you normally don't find an address if you look for it by using a postal code or your house number. It works in a few large cities but that's it. If you can only zoom in to a specific place then you will use Google Maps the next time you are looking for specific address... And that is my whole point: I think it is much more important to distill the strategic goals out of the community's mind and then focus the efforts on a few selective initiates rather than having hundreds of parallel projects. Some people might want to achieve a wider use for humanitarian projects. Then address referencing won't help and a license change won't change either. There needs to be common understanding of the vision where OSM is seen in five years from now. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5252794.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 4 July 2010 14:34, Stefan de Konink wrote: > The point is that *no* major company actually said, 'if you switch to > ODbL then we will use it', while it is a claim companies don't use OSM > because of cc-by-sa. I don't see the problem solved, do you? I doubt I'd make it very public if a license switch was in the interest of my company ahead of it actually going through, not that it will be more beneficial to any company I work for either way, simply because if it doesn't go through I would then be at a disadvantage... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Op 04-07-10 06:23, John Smith schreef: > On 4 July 2010 07:22, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: >> >>> What would make OSM successful in your eyes? >>> >>> I thought one of the goals was to have OSM used more widely? >> >> This is the right type of question but you need to create an even more basic >> understanding: I haven't seen a common understanding of the definition of >> OSM's success. Where did you find the goal of a wider use? Wider use by > > I didn't find it anywhere, but what's the point in having the best > maps in the world if no one uses them? > > Some people in support of ODBL have stated companies are worried > cc-by-sa is too ambiguous and so they won't use OSM data, I'm trying > to find the page it was listed on, but there is quite a few pages > for/against ODBL... The point is that *no* major company actually said, 'if you switch to ODbL then we will use it', while it is a claim companies don't use OSM because of cc-by-sa. I don't see the problem solved, do you? Stefan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkwwD24ACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn3Y/wCgiqJ/J4hUdibor5OfJ0TyI3oz /1QAn35CKdMJwxlegzhLDZOHt2vMQxhH =4sz6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 4 July 2010 07:22, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > >>What would make OSM successful in your eyes? >> >>I thought one of the goals was to have OSM used more widely? > > This is the right type of question but you need to create an even more basic > understanding: I haven't seen a common understanding of the definition of > OSM's success. Where did you find the goal of a wider use? Wider use by I didn't find it anywhere, but what's the point in having the best maps in the world if no one uses them? Some people in support of ODBL have stated companies are worried cc-by-sa is too ambiguous and so they won't use OSM data, I'm trying to find the page it was listed on, but there is quite a few pages for/against ODBL... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>What would make OSM successful in your eyes? > >I thought one of the goals was to have OSM used more widely? This is the right type of question but you need to create an even more basic understanding: I haven't seen a common understanding of the definition of OSM's success. Where did you find the goal of a wider use? Wider use by consumers, companies, NGOs? A wider use in the sense of deriving more special interest maps? A wider use in sense of market share compared to TeleAtlas, Navteq and Google? Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5251898.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > people who [...] > go away and join the RIAA. But that is my personal opinion There is this copyright researcher, Mathias Klang[1], working on CC in Sweden who gave some categories of people who argue about copyright. I'm not sure this is complete but this is y interpretation of it: So copyright is broken what do we do? 1. you can't fix it, kill it! (you?) 2. lets use what we can, it to convert the world! (SA , GPL) 3. you should kill people who undermine it (RIAA) But on one hand I've seen you defend the right to claim owner ship of my map data if it's used in a produced work. So maybe I forgot some category, or maybe generalizations are evil. /emj [1] I like his post about Open data license which discuss what you attack so much: http://techrisk.se/?p=1981 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 3 July 2010 14:27, Frederik Ramm wrote: > But the underlying idea of property is required for attribution as well; > you cannot force people to provide attribution without first claiming that > the data is yours and yours alone and only by following your license will > people be allowed to use it. I don't think that is right. I would like to see a license which just requires attribution and not much else, not to assert ownership but just to say that we made this, it is cool, and you could join in and help us make it better. Commercial map providers don't need the publicity from attribution as they are selling their product in the first place but I think we do as most people still haven't even heard of OSM and we will always need more contributors. I don't care what people do with the data but I think attribution is helpful just to shine a bit more light on the project. Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 3 July 2010 23:27, Frederik Ramm wrote: > But the underlying idea of property is required for attribution as well; you > cannot force people to provide attribution without first claiming that the > data is yours and yours alone and only by following your license will people > be allowed to use it. That's a very dim view of things imho, what about giving credit simply to acknowledge the work of others, rather than ripping off the efforts of others and claiming it as your own. While the license might spell it out in legal terms, this is common courtesy, plain and simple in my view, and if people were generally nicer to each other we wouldn't have the need for licenses and lawyers and so on in the first place! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 3 July 2010 23:16, Frederik Ramm wrote: > 2. Imports and government cooperation are not crucial to OSM's success. What would make OSM successful in your eyes? I thought one of the goals was to have OSM used more widely? If so government users should be given the same consideration as any other group of potential users regardless if they give data to OSM or not, for them to be able to utilise OSM the license has to be acceptable for them to use it just like any other entity. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
John, John Smith wrote: What you quoted had nothing to do with share-a-like, but was specifically about attribution... But the underlying idea of property is required for attribution as well; you cannot force people to provide attribution without first claiming that the data is yours and yours alone and only by following your license will people be allowed to use it. As I pointed out in a previous email, the issue of license for most contributors is a moral one and doesn't directly effect contributors one way or another, as long as it fits their sense of morals. Probably right. Sometimes I have the impression that many people do not so much respond to a status but more to a change of that status. Do something under license A and it's ok; do it under B and it's ok; but do it under A then change to B, or B then change to A, is asking for trouble. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 3 July 2010 23:16, Frederik Ramm wrote: > 4. It is my personal opinion that advocates of share-alike licenses are > driven less by the desire to create something great, but more by the desire > to ringfence, protect, defend what they think is their property against > imaginary powers of evil. I am opposed to the idea of property in this > context. Anyone who goes outside, sees a lamp post, writes down that he has > seen a lamp post, and then goes on to derive intellectual property rights > from this action should go away and join the RIAA. But that is my personal > opinion and we have many ardent share-alike supporters in OSM whose work and > dedication have done a lot to further OSM's success and I, grudgingly, > respect their predilection. What you quoted had nothing to do with share-a-like, but was specifically about attribution... As I pointed out in a previous email, the issue of license for most contributors is a moral one and doesn't directly effect contributors one way or another, as long as it fits their sense of morals. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
John, John Smith wrote: I'm not aware of any entities that would share more data if OSM used a cc-by compatible license, in fact I've been told some governments agencies are unhappy that they have to share at all, but they definitely would not be happen with anything less than an attribution style license. 1. Anecdotal evidence helps neither side in this discussion. 2. Imports and government cooperation are not crucial to OSM's success. 3. Imminent death of OSM has been predicted by various parties at various times for any kind of license decision or non-decision. 4. It is my personal opinion that advocates of share-alike licenses are driven less by the desire to create something great, but more by the desire to ringfence, protect, defend what they think is their property against imaginary powers of evil. I am opposed to the idea of property in this context. Anyone who goes outside, sees a lamp post, writes down that he has seen a lamp post, and then goes on to derive intellectual property rights from this action should go away and join the RIAA. But that is my personal opinion and we have many ardent share-alike supporters in OSM whose work and dedication have done a lot to further OSM's success and I, grudgingly, respect their predilection. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 3 July 2010 22:40, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > If it is for the sake of compliance with licenses of data donors then there > will always be cases that fit with one license type and don't fit with with > other license types. It might also be that the majority of data donors > prefer a more restricted license. If this is the main point it would be > interesting to see any hard facts that a cc-by license would lead to more > data donations. I'm not aware of any entities that would share more data if OSM used a cc-by compatible license, in fact I've been told some governments agencies are unhappy that they have to share at all, but they definitely would not be happen with anything less than an attribution style license. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>Some data is being released in Australia from governments under cc-by >licenses, and they would possibly benefit from OSM having a cc-by >compatible license, I'm sure some other donors would be in the same >boat. If it is for the sake of compliance with licenses of data donors then there will always be cases that fit with one license type and don't fit with with other license types. It might also be that the majority of data donors prefer a more restricted license. If this is the main point it would be interesting to see any hard facts that a cc-by license would lead to more data donations. >In my mind, the main beneficiary would be companies selling products >or services and gaining a competitive advantage over their competition >by not being required to share any changes they make. Agreed. However, it would be very interesting to understand if a candidate is in favor of a PD-license because of his "business friendly attitude". I would myself consider as having a business friendly attitude but from a an OpenStreetMap perspective I would consider a less restrictive license a risky approach that requires very well balancing the trade-offs. In my discussions I often got the impression that many people just don't like to discuss the license and want to get rid of these discussions by simply favoring a less restricted license. And I think it should be transparent for which purpose a candidate for the board is in favor of a certain license type - and shouldn't be for the reason of laziness. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5250938.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 3 July 2010 20:39, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > license. In essence I would like to understand who is intended to benefit > from a PD-license, mappers, consumers, developers, companies, data donors? I Some data is being released in Australia from governments under cc-by licenses, and they would possibly benefit from OSM having a cc-by compatible license, I'm sure some other donors would be in the same boat. I think Sam has mentioned some Canadian government data is being released without any restrictions and they wouldn't be able to accept any data back unless there was no restrictions, so in this case a PD license would benefit donors. I think most declarations by end users are more moral than anything, in that most end users wouldn't stand to gain anything tangible directly regardless of what the license is. I doubt most consumers or developers would gain anything directly, usually they benefit from services but is it OSM's place to demand how the data should be used? NGOs might benefit from a more liberal license, simply because they may be able to build up their own from different sources, although those sources then might claim copyright due to being a derivative product. In my mind, the main beneficiary would be companies selling products or services and gaining a competitive advantage over their competition by not being required to share any changes they make. This in turn might be detrimental for consumers and developers because they may want to use the most consistent map source but not necessarily the best license or price for their users and so on. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>But to reiterate: I'd love to have a PD-like license or as Richard has >said even better: I'd like anything that is "non-share-alike". And I >don't agree with Oliver conclusion on what would happen (corporate >"take over"). Interesting remark: the one says something like I want to have a Volkswagen Golf. And the other says I am happy as soon as I get vehicle with four tires. A non-share-alike license can also be commercial license that isn't free... It would be interesting what the higher goal is when statements are issued that a PD-license is preferred. Who is intended to benefit from this type of license? This would definitely be topic that belongs to this threat if a candidate sees a certain group discriminated because of a wrong type of license. In essence I would like to understand who is intended to benefit from a PD-license, mappers, consumers, developers, companies, data donors? I would also like to see a statement if in the candidates' view that a shift to a PD-license would follow the Pareto principle that no group is disadvantaged while other groups are put at advantage. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5250750.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
> A short remark although this is the wrong place to discuss the topic: I agree with this. This thread isn't the topic to discuss license issue although I'm happy to answer any concrete questions in a separate thread, at the SotM or via private mail. I'll have to say though that I don't have deep legal knowledge on a lot of the issues involved and I'll happily refer to the License Working Group for those. The question would have to be on my opinions. But to reiterate: I'd love to have a PD-like license or as Richard has said even better: I'd like anything that is "non-share-alike". And I don't agree with Oliver conclusion on what would happen (corporate "take over"). Cheers, Lars ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>Actually there is a 3rd option, some people prefer cc-by... There are a few more options. Dual licensing like MySQL with a free share-a-like and commercial non-share-alike would also be an option. And there are many more. The question is just what you want to achieve and then you should look into the licensing options. A short remark although this is the wrong place to discuss the topic: I am pretty sure that a complete switch to PD would immediate lead to the fact that some big companies would grab the OSM data, put a few hundred million dollars into it, build some better tools and the majority of the contributors would leave OSM to follow the new corporate driven project. Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5247340.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
John Smith wrote: > Actually there is a 3rd option, some people prefer cc-by... By and large the "holy war" is share-alike vs non-share-alike. Attribution is kind of a sideshow; IMX most 'PD' advocates (myself included) would be equally content, maybe even more so, with an attribution licence such as CC-BY. We just use 'PD' as a shorthand for 'non-share-alike'. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5247287.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 2 July 2010 18:55, Emilie Laffray wrote: > In addition, it is clear that people are almost equally split between SA > licenses and PD domain, and it would be difficult to achieve any kind of Actually there is a 3rd option, some people prefer cc-by... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Stefan, Stefan de Konink wrote: Now I know who *not* to vote for, I kinda requested the opposite. Even if we were to elect three ardent PD supporters, it is unlikely that they would be able to turn back the wheel on ODbL. I think that the way forward for those preferring PD would be to support ODbL for now but at the same time urge the community to make a pro-PD statement in the course of the license transition. If only a minority choose to make such a statement then the pro-PD faction is beaten. If a majority make such a statement then all the big talk about the importance of a share-alike license would lose credibility; we would still have the ODbL but we would know that a majority doesn't care which would influence the amount of work we'd put into implementing and enforcing the license. In a, hypothetical, case where 90% of mappers express a pro-PD stance, we'd still have ODbL to please the minority but that would hardly be a mandate for OSMF to spend much resources on implementing and policing ODbL. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
That's the idea of a vote :) Somehow I think most will support ODbL. Anyone wants to make a list of candidates opinions on this? Greets, Floris Stefan de Konink wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: > >> >>> Are there strategic votes pro PD and/or negative to ODbL? >> >> I am a strong supporter for the ODbL as I also mention in the last part >> of >> my manifesto[1] > > Now I know who *not* to vote for, I kinda requested the opposite. > > > Stefan > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Oliver (skobbler) wrote: Are there strategic votes pro PD and/or negative to ODbL? I am a strong supporter for the ODbL as I also mention in the last part of my manifesto[1] Now I know who *not* to vote for, I kinda requested the opposite. Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
On 1 July 2010 22:08, Stefan de Konink wrote: > Are there strategic votes pro PD and/or negative to ODbL? > My point of view on the license is very pragmatic. I support the ODbL as it is a continuation and a clarification of the CC-BY-SA. Ideally, a public domain license would be better but we can see how difficult it is to switch from a share alike license to another, so switching to a public domain license would be even more difficult due to the existing terms of CC-BY-SA. In addition, it is clear that people are almost equally split between SA licenses and PD domain, and it would be difficult to achieve any kind of meaningful consensus. It is a highly heated ideological debate which In addition, in my view, the only real change for me in ODbL is the introduction of the concept of produced work, which is likely to increase the use of OSM data by companies and some individuals. The rest is mostly clarification and precision of CC-BY-SA. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
>Are there strategic votes pro PD and/or negative to ODbL? I am a strong supporter for the ODbL as I also mention in the last part of my manifesto[1] Regards, Oliver [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oliver.kuehn/Manifesto -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5246861.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Are there strategic votes pro PD and/or negative to ODbL? Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
In addition to the manifestos there is a bit of Q&A on the discussion page. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/AGM10/Election_to_Board ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Hi, as I am another candidate for the board election that runs from today until July 9th I would like to append this post by my manifesto that represents my view and thoughts on OpenStreetMap. A brief personal overview can be found here [1]. I would also like to refer to the overview and process for this election: [2]. Please note that you can vote for up to three candidates. Best Regards, Oliver [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oliver.kuehn [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM10/Election_to_Board Oliver's OSMF Board Election 2010 Manifesto Introduction OpenStreetMap is a fantastic project. It attracts more and more contributors. The map coverage is developing fast, shows an immense dynamic and gains a very interesting level of details in specific areas. While the contributors and the map coverage is growing fast, the usage of OpenStreetMap data lacks behind. Most users that just want to ‘consume’ a map go to sources like Google Maps while many companies that are interested in OpenStreetMap data remain hesitant because they are feeling unsecure in regards of the share-a-like license. For me it seems like that part of the OpenStreetMap potential remains untapped. My ultimate aim My ultimate aim is to help that the OpenStreetMap project unfolds its own ecosystem by discovering and claiming its (market) segment in the digital mapping turf - regardless if it is special interest maps, outstanding detailed coverage or whatever. I want to help that OpenStreetMap becomes a viable alternative in the Open Geo stack when users, developers or companies need a digital map. My intention is to help that OpenStreetMap achieves the acceptance and respect it deserves among developers and companies so that an ecosystem can evolve. What change There are three specific goals that I want to pursue: (1) Improve the communication among mappers, companies, developers: Make transparent for which use cases the map is appropriate, where its strengths and weaknesses are by “decrypting” the license, providing better information and statistics about the map coverage as well as the available map attributes. From my discussions I know that many companies are interested in using OpenStreetMap but remain reluctant as they fear that proprietary data will become “public data”. On the other hand many people consider OSM as a playground for techies as they have taken their last closer look at the map more than 18 months ago and this impression still prevails. (2) Help to identify a spot in the digital mapping turf that gives the OpenStreetMap project a long-term perspective and builds upon the strengths of OpenStreetMap. Most activities in the OSM community are related to the fun stuff like mapping, inventing new map attributes or coding software solutions related to OSM. While the OpenStreetMap project attracts more and more users, most activities are not crosschecked against a long-term strategy. Many values have been established in the OpenStreetMap community and there seems to be something in the air, which makes all the active contributors belief in the project. However, the vision, mission and values need to be distilled and transformed into words so that they become explicit and serve as guideline for short- and mid-term decisions as well as to inspire even more people to join the OpenStreetMap project as active contributors. (3) Protect the OpenStreetMap project from exploitation by large companies. There is a lot of money at stake: Nokia paid $8.1 billion for Navteq, TomTom paid €1.8 billion for TeleAtlas. The map maker acquisitions during 2007 led to fact that there no more independent commercial map makers on a global scale. Many players have now to purchase map data licenses from their fiercest competition. Due to this situation there are many companies out there that are interested in having their own map. In the US market there is the Tiger data set, which has been used to build a digital map database. The situation is different in Europe and other places on the world where such a free “raw database” does not exist. It is an act of balance to protect the IP on the one hand and to encourage the use of the OpenStreetMap data on the other hand. Therefore it needs significant attention. Since the OpenStreetMap data are a scarce resource in many places of the world these data need to be protected against exploitations. While others would like to see OpenStreetMap as public domain, I am a supporter for well balanced license. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5245093.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Hello, I am writing to the list to mention that I will be running for the board for the upcoming election for the foundation. After lot of thinking, I have decided that I could potentially contribute to the community in a different way in order to help OSM achieve its goal. I am including my manifesto at the end of that email. Emilie Laffray *OSMF Board 2010* *Introduction* I started getting involved in OpenStreetMap in Automn 2008 where I spent most of my time looking at understanding how it worked before finally joining the site in 2009. My initial interest was to find a free source of geographical data to remove the proprietary data that my company (u-blox) was using. Since I started mapping, I added my hometown in France and did most of the mapping North of Orleans, based on GPS tracks that I did, and mostly on the cadastre (geographical data used for tax purposes) which proved to be a very powerful tool to map France. I am involved in the English and French communities, and active on many international mailing lists. I have also been involved in the Corine Land Cover import in France, where I wrote most of the SQL code to check for overlapping polygons to make sure that the community wouldn't lose polygons for something that was of lower quality. In addition, I have been getting involved with the organization of the State Of The Map 2010 in Gerona, Spain. When I have the time and opportunity, I am also talking about OpenStreetMap (OpenKnowledge Conference 2010, London and SIG La Lettre 2010, Paris) on different topics like data quality and Haiti. Being involved in the State Of The Map conference really gave me the feeling that I could do more for OpenStreetMap, and it is one reason for standing for election. *Statement* I strongly believe that OpenStreetMap needs to communicate better about the different projects that are currently being developed in the different communities. Some projects are very good, but are unfortunately restricted to one community only due to lack of promotion of the tools being developped. In addition, it is clear that some communities would beneficiate from the help of more mature communities in order to help the mapping effort. While English needs to stay the main language, it is a language that not many people are necessarily speaking fluently and it is important that bridges are built to work around those difficulties. *Goals* If I get elected, I would like to push the following points: * Better communication from the Foundation * Better support of community projects * Better support to non English speaking communities * Working towards reducing the barrier of entry to mapping ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
