Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
Hi Stefan, On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 2:45 AM, Stefan Keller wrote: > Hi Kate > > 2014-04-28 7:40 GMT+02:00 Kate Chapman : > > > I think there would need to be audio challenges. > > There are projects for helping make OSM accessible to people who are > vision impaired, this includes information on the OSM wiki. >> >> > I understand. But audio is a complete different technology and our project > wanted to focus on visual clues. > Sorry I should have been more specific. I just meant that when/if it was integrated into the various OSM tools it would be important to make sure an audio tool was also available. Thanks, -Kate > > Yours, Stefan > > > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
On 28 April 2014 08:54, Paul Johnson wrote: > At least at face value, this presents issues for the US chapter, given > blind people... > The most frequent response I have heard to similar comments in the past was that the map as a whole presents more of an issue. It may seem a bit obstructive and glib, but perhaps there is some truth here. I think it could be a good opportunity to examine all our infrastructures not only image representations of geospatial data (i.e maps). Blindness is a spectrum as I understand it - perhaps the lessons that are being learnt in making OSM more vision impaired people into OSM could be taught to everyone making mapping tools. What progress has been made here and how could these be added to improve this project? > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Stefan Keller wrote: > >> Hi Kate >> >> 2014-04-28 7:40 GMT+02:00 Kate Chapman : >> >> > I think there would need to be audio challenges. >> > There are projects for helping make OSM accessible to people who are >> vision impaired, this includes information on the OSM wiki. >>> >>> >> I understand. But audio is a complete different technology and our >> project wanted to focus on visual clues. >> >> Yours, Stefan >> >> >> 2014-04-28 7:40 GMT+02:00 Kate Chapman : >> >> Hi Stefan, >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: >>> 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson wrote: > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly be ADA compliant: > How does a blind person pass? We could add audio challenges - but that's not needed since the context and target sites where ReMAPTCHA is designed for, are geospatial websites and graphic editors. >>> >>> I think there would need to be audio challenges. There are projects for >>> helping make OSM accessible to people who are vision impaired, this >>> includes information on the OSM wiki. >>> -S. > 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson : > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:21 AM, moltonel 3x Combo > wrote: > >> I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With >> two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to >> write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of >> success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors >> won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. >> > > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly > be ADA compliant: How does a blind person pass? > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>> >> > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
At least at face value, this presents issues for the US chapter, given blind people... On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Stefan Keller wrote: > Hi Kate > > 2014-04-28 7:40 GMT+02:00 Kate Chapman : > > > I think there would need to be audio challenges. > > There are projects for helping make OSM accessible to people who are > vision impaired, this includes information on the OSM wiki. >> >> > I understand. But audio is a complete different technology and our project > wanted to focus on visual clues. > > Yours, Stefan > > > 2014-04-28 7:40 GMT+02:00 Kate Chapman : > > Hi Stefan, >> >> On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: >> >>> 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson wrote: >>> >>> > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly >>> be ADA compliant: >>> > How does a blind person pass? >>> >>> We could add audio challenges - but that's not needed since the context >>> and target sites where ReMAPTCHA is designed for, are geospatial websites >>> and graphic editors. >>> >> >> I think there would need to be audio challenges. There are projects for >> helping make OSM accessible to people who are vision impaired, this >> includes information on the OSM wiki. >> >>> >>> -S. >>> >>> >>> 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson : >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:21 AM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: > I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With > two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to > write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of > success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors > won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly be ADA compliant: How does a blind person pass? >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> talk mailing list >>> talk@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>> >>> >> > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
Hi Kate 2014-04-28 7:40 GMT+02:00 Kate Chapman : > > I think there would need to be audio challenges. > There are projects for helping make OSM accessible to people who are vision impaired, this includes information on the OSM wiki. > > I understand. But audio is a complete different technology and our project wanted to focus on visual clues. Yours, Stefan 2014-04-28 7:40 GMT+02:00 Kate Chapman : > Hi Stefan, > > On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: > >> 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson wrote: >> >> > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly >> be ADA compliant: >> > How does a blind person pass? >> >> We could add audio challenges - but that's not needed since the context >> and target sites where ReMAPTCHA is designed for, are geospatial websites >> and graphic editors. >> > > I think there would need to be audio challenges. There are projects for > helping make OSM accessible to people who are vision impaired, this > includes information on the OSM wiki. > >> >> -S. >> >>> >> >> 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson : >> >> >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:21 AM, moltonel 3x Combo >>> wrote: >>> I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. >>> >>> I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly >>> be ADA compliant: How does a blind person pass? >>> >> >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> >> > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
Hi Stefan, On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: > 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson wrote: > > > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly > be ADA compliant: > > How does a blind person pass? > > We could add audio challenges - but that's not needed since the context > and target sites where ReMAPTCHA is designed for, are geospatial websites > and graphic editors. > I think there would need to be audio challenges. There are projects for helping make OSM accessible to people who are vision impaired, this includes information on the OSM wiki. > > -S. > >> > > 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson : > > >> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:21 AM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: >> >>> I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With >>> two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to >>> write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of >>> success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors >>> won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. >>> >> >> I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly be >> ADA compliant: How does a blind person pass? >> > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson wrote: > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly be ADA compliant: > How does a blind person pass? We could add audio challenges - but that's not needed since the context and target sites where ReMAPTCHA is designed for, are geospatial websites and graphic editors. -S. > 2014-04-27 21:08 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson : > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:21 AM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: > >> I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With >> two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to >> write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of >> success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors >> won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. >> > > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly be > ADA compliant: How does a blind person pass? > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:21 AM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: > I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With > two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to > write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of > success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors > won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. > I think a bigger situation is that I don't see how this could possibly be ADA compliant: How does a blind person pass? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
Hi, We slightly updated http://remaptcha.herokuapp.com/ : It now validates the second control word (nearby the flag) better. BUT now, we have another variant #2 which has two steps: http://remaptcha2.herokuapp.com/ A variant means to me that's another possible solution (i.e. it's not Version 2). LG, Stefan 2014-04-05 12:18 GMT+02:00 Stefan Keller : > Hi, > > We've slightly updated ReMAPTCHA plugin. > > -S. > > [1] http://remaptcha.herokuapp.com/ > > > > > 2014-03-31 18:47 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo : > > On 31/03/2014, Stefan Keller wrote: >> > The scrambling of the Control Word" is as intense as other Captchas but >> > it's only 5-6 chars (instead of 10 or more). >> >> Hum, taking another look, it does seem more scrambled than I remember. >> But when I first checked, there was only text over the map, not over >> the imagery, so you changed stuff :p >> >> It's better, but I still feel it's not as scrambled as the typical >> ReCAPTCHA; for example it doesn't have anything overlaying it. >> >> > We can afford this because an OCR needs to find first the boundaries of >> the >> > word - and that's more difficult with labels on a map. >> >> One major flaw with displaying the text on both layers (rendered and >> satellite) is that you can substract one image from the other to be >> left with just the text without noise. >> >> Map labels are rare enough in the examples I saw. They might also be >> easyly filtered out as being non-scrambled and using known typefaces. >> >> And if we get an area with many labels that somehow confuse a bot but >> not a user, we're back to the "got a few words, try to give >> combinations at random" problem. >> >> > You have to realize that the other word has to be written just to >> indicate >> > if there is a path - else you can ommit it. >> >> Yes. >> >> > The fact that there is a path is unknown to our system. >> >> I don't understand that part. You've created the chalenges, so you >> must know the answer ? >> >> > So in your estimation, humans always succeded when only typing the >> "Control >> > Word". >> > That (human) trick and not knowing the correct answer for the "Control >> > Word" applies to all reCAPTCHAs. >> > Bots need first to find 1. which one is the Control Word (including >> > boundary) and then 2. to try OCR. >> >> Part of my point is that the bot doesn't need to distinguish the >> control word from the other word (assuming it OCRed the words >> correctly, see above). It has a 33% chance of getting it right >> randomly, which is fine. A 10% overall success rate is not an issue >> for a bot (but would be for a human). >> >> >> Please drop the "scrambled text" idea altogether. And make solving a >> >> CAPTCHA a fun activity in the process. >> > >> > Feedback so far was, that it's at least more fun than typing 15 >> characters >> > and helping G* instead of OSM. >> >> That's my feedback too :) Note that I wouldn't be commenting if I >> thought the work didn't have merit :p >> >> But I'm afraid that the fun will quickly disapear, because we still >> have to squint and type, and because you'll notice that you need to >> raise the scrambling-related difficulty because bots still get thru. >> >> >> ...A "click features on the >> >> satellite imagery" task is one way to do it, but I'm sure there are >> >> others. >> > >> > This seems like a good idea and I'm open to collect those. >> >> I hope you'll explore the idea, so. >> >> There have been plenty of other attempts with image-based no-typing >> CAPTCHAs (search those terms), but I think that they suffered from the >> high cost of getting tagged source material. An OSM-backed satellite >> imagery CAPTCHA would have a huge amount of source material readily >> available. >> >> > Unfortunately nobody came up until now with one, which fulfilled the >> > properties of a reCAPTCHA, i.e. fast and easy to understand challenge by >> > humans. >> >> I guess it's the usual problem of plenty of people having their idea >> about a feature, but it takes one person to actually go and do the >> work before they reallize that they had different features in mind, or >> that it was a bad idea... Thanks for working on that :) >> > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
On 31/03/2014, Stefan Keller wrote: > The scrambling of the Control Word" is as intense as other Captchas but > it's only 5-6 chars (instead of 10 or more). Hum, taking another look, it does seem more scrambled than I remember. But when I first checked, there was only text over the map, not over the imagery, so you changed stuff :p It's better, but I still feel it's not as scrambled as the typical ReCAPTCHA; for example it doesn't have anything overlaying it. > We can afford this because an OCR needs to find first the boundaries of the > word - and that's more difficult with labels on a map. One major flaw with displaying the text on both layers (rendered and satellite) is that you can substract one image from the other to be left with just the text without noise. Map labels are rare enough in the examples I saw. They might also be easyly filtered out as being non-scrambled and using known typefaces. And if we get an area with many labels that somehow confuse a bot but not a user, we're back to the "got a few words, try to give combinations at random" problem. > You have to realize that the other word has to be written just to indicate > if there is a path - else you can ommit it. Yes. > The fact that there is a path is unknown to our system. I don't understand that part. You've created the chalenges, so you must know the answer ? > So in your estimation, humans always succeded when only typing the "Control > Word". > That (human) trick and not knowing the correct answer for the "Control > Word" applies to all reCAPTCHAs. > Bots need first to find 1. which one is the Control Word (including > boundary) and then 2. to try OCR. Part of my point is that the bot doesn't need to distinguish the control word from the other word (assuming it OCRed the words correctly, see above). It has a 33% chance of getting it right randomly, which is fine. A 10% overall success rate is not an issue for a bot (but would be for a human). >> Please drop the "scrambled text" idea altogether. And make solving a >> CAPTCHA a fun activity in the process. > > Feedback so far was, that it's at least more fun than typing 15 characters > and helping G* instead of OSM. That's my feedback too :) Note that I wouldn't be commenting if I thought the work didn't have merit :p But I'm afraid that the fun will quickly disapear, because we still have to squint and type, and because you'll notice that you need to raise the scrambling-related difficulty because bots still get thru. >> ...A "click features on the >> satellite imagery" task is one way to do it, but I'm sure there are >> others. > > This seems like a good idea and I'm open to collect those. I hope you'll explore the idea, so. There have been plenty of other attempts with image-based no-typing CAPTCHAs (search those terms), but I think that they suffered from the high cost of getting tagged source material. An OSM-backed satellite imagery CAPTCHA would have a huge amount of source material readily available. > Unfortunately nobody came up until now with one, which fulfilled the > properties of a reCAPTCHA, i.e. fast and easy to understand challenge by > humans. I guess it's the usual problem of plenty of people having their idea about a feature, but it takes one person to actually go and do the work before they reallize that they had different features in mind, or that it was a bad idea... Thanks for working on that :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
Hi moltonel 2014-03-31 13:21 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo : > > I'm not an OCR expert, but your scrambling looks less intense than > most CAPTCHAs out there, so I assume that it isn't much of a challenge > for current bots and consider it "solved". The scrambling of the Control Word" is as intense as other Captchas but it's only 5-6 chars (instead of 10 or more). We can afford this because an OCR needs to find first the boundaries of the word - and that's more difficult with labels on a map. You have to realize that the other word has to be written just to indicate if there is a path - else you can ommit it. The fact that there is a path is unknown to our system. So in your estimation, humans always succeded when only typing the "Control Word". That (human) trick and not knowing the correct answer for the "Control Word" applies to all reCAPTCHAs. Bots need first to find 1. which one is the Control Word (including boundary) and then 2. to try OCR. > Please drop the "scrambled text" idea altogether. And make solving a > CAPTCHA a fun activity in the process. Feedback so far was, that it's at least more fun than typing 15 characters and helping G* instead of OSM. > ...A "click features on the > satellite imagery" task is one way to do it, but I'm sure there are > others. This seems like a good idea and I'm open to collect those. Unfortunately nobody came up until now with one, which fulfilled the properties of a reCAPTCHA, i.e. fast and easy to understand challenge by humans. --S. 2014-03-31 13:21 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo : > On 29/03/2014, Stefan Keller wrote: > > Hi moltonel > > > > You wrote: > >> I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With > >> two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to > >> write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of > >> success if answering randomly > > > > I can't follow what 33% means and why you are more worried than about the > > usual CAPTCHAs: The known word (the one which is more scrambled) in our > > ReMAPTCHA currently consists of 5 characters, and the word is placed > > anywhere in the image - slightly tilted. This makes it at least as > > difficult as usual CAPTCHAs. > > I'm not an OCR expert, but your scrambling looks less intense than > most CAPTCHAs out there, so I assume that it isn't much of a challenge > for current bots and consider it "solved". From that point onward, the > challenge asks me to look at the map to decide wether to type word A > or words A and B. If a bot can't read the map (that's what we hope), > it'll just try random combinations: either word A, or word B, or words > A and B. That's 33% of success. > > Again, you could scramble more heavily or add more words to choose > from. But if you do that, ReMAPTCHA will quickly become as annoying > (if not more) as traditional CAPTCHAs. > > The original idea of CAPTCHAs is that humans are better at reading > scrambled characters than computers. But computers got better at that > task, to the point that we have to make the task diffucult for humans > in order to make it difficult from computers. > > Today we have a new type of task that humans are supposedly better at: > interpreting satellite imagery. Even better: we're asking the computer > to reproduce a brain process (armchair mapping) rather than a computer > process (reversing the scrambling algorythm). > > Please drop the "scrambled text" idea altogether. And make solving a > CAPTCHA a fun activity in the process. A "click features on the > satellite imagery" task is one way to do it, but I'm sure there are > others. > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
On 29/03/2014, Stefan Keller wrote: > Hi moltonel > > You wrote: >> I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With >> two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to >> write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of >> success if answering randomly > > I can't follow what 33% means and why you are more worried than about the > usual CAPTCHAs: The known word (the one which is more scrambled) in our > ReMAPTCHA currently consists of 5 characters, and the word is placed > anywhere in the image - slightly tilted. This makes it at least as > difficult as usual CAPTCHAs. I'm not an OCR expert, but your scrambling looks less intense than most CAPTCHAs out there, so I assume that it isn't much of a challenge for current bots and consider it "solved". From that point onward, the challenge asks me to look at the map to decide wether to type word A or words A and B. If a bot can't read the map (that's what we hope), it'll just try random combinations: either word A, or word B, or words A and B. That's 33% of success. Again, you could scramble more heavily or add more words to choose from. But if you do that, ReMAPTCHA will quickly become as annoying (if not more) as traditional CAPTCHAs. The original idea of CAPTCHAs is that humans are better at reading scrambled characters than computers. But computers got better at that task, to the point that we have to make the task diffucult for humans in order to make it difficult from computers. Today we have a new type of task that humans are supposedly better at: interpreting satellite imagery. Even better: we're asking the computer to reproduce a brain process (armchair mapping) rather than a computer process (reversing the scrambling algorythm). Please drop the "scrambled text" idea altogether. And make solving a CAPTCHA a fun activity in the process. A "click features on the satellite imagery" task is one way to do it, but I'm sure there are others. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
Hi moltonel You wrote: > I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With > two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to > write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of > success if answering randomly I can't follow what 33% means and why you are more worried than about the usual CAPTCHAs: The known word (the one which is more scrambled) in our ReMAPTCHA currently consists of 5 characters, and the word is placed anywhere in the image - slightly tilted. This makes it at least as difficult as usual CAPTCHAs. Yours, Stefan 2014-03-29 14:21 GMT+01:00 moltonel 3x Combo : > On 28/03/2014, Stefan Keller wrote: > > The ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 finally is ready to be tested: > > http://remaptcha.herokuapp.com/ > > Great, looks promising :) > > > Please note that perfomance is slow (so hover over satellite icon taks > > seconds), and that the data is restricted to Switzerland since that's the > > imagery data I needed (if anyone knows freely accessible aerial/satellite > > imagery of similar quality I'm interested). > > > > I'm open for hints and enhancement requests (excuse me that I can't > answer > > then all). > > I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With > two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to > write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of > success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors > won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. > > The most direct way to reduce those odds is to put many words in the > picture. But that'll quickly get messy and as annoying as traditional > captchas. How about getting rid of words alltogether ? > > First of all, display only the satellite imagery, because the map > rendering is too parseable for computers, and not really necessary for > humans. Then ask the user to click on specific areas of the image, > using your knowledge of the underlying map data. Some challenge > examples : > * Click on the car park if you can reach it from the motorway, > otherwise click the big building. > * Click on the playground, then the fountain, then the lake > * Click on the road that leads to the football pitch > * Click on one of the park entrances > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
On 28/03/2014, Stefan Keller wrote: > The ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 finally is ready to be tested: > http://remaptcha.herokuapp.com/ Great, looks promising :) > Please note that perfomance is slow (so hover over satellite icon taks > seconds), and that the data is restricted to Switzerland since that's the > imagery data I needed (if anyone knows freely accessible aerial/satellite > imagery of similar quality I'm interested). > > I'm open for hints and enhancement requests (excuse me that I can't answer > then all). I'm worried about bots still having a very high chance of sucess. With two fairly-legible words in the image and a chalenge asking me to write either one of the words or both, a bot still has 33% chance of success if answering randomly, wich is high enough that bot authors won't even bother trying to smartly interpret the map. The most direct way to reduce those odds is to put many words in the picture. But that'll quickly get messy and as annoying as traditional captchas. How about getting rid of words alltogether ? First of all, display only the satellite imagery, because the map rendering is too parseable for computers, and not really necessary for humans. Then ask the user to click on specific areas of the image, using your knowledge of the underlying map data. Some challenge examples : * Click on the car park if you can reach it from the motorway, otherwise click the big building. * Click on the playground, then the fountain, then the lake * Click on the road that leads to the football pitch * Click on one of the park entrances ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
I think this is wonderful, and can only see this getting better, bravo! It's one of those features that we all seem to end up talking about when meeting face to face so it's good to see an attempt at it! There was a bit of a learning curve it seems, as I added the wrong thing a couple of times and it said it passed - which I guess that's because of the low samples so far? Before I saw the aerial imagery button I assumed I was answering what was on the map - is there a join on the map (yes: two words) or is the red line going over a gap in the map (one word). But then I saw the imagery and then the task changed to be both that task and tempering it with my interpretation of the imagery, which made more sense when thinking about the use to improve the data quality. Perhaps making it switch between the map and imagery ever second could help, although perhaps as it becomes more familiar it may not be necessary. Curious to hear your plans for the results of this for the future cheers, Tim On 28 March 2014 14:10, Stefan Keller wrote: > Hi, > > The ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 finally is ready to be tested: > http://remaptcha.herokuapp.com/ > > Please note that perfomance is slow (so hover over satellite icon taks > seconds), and that the data is restricted to Switzerland since that's the > imagery data I needed (if anyone knows freely accessible aerial/satellite > imagery of similar quality I'm interested). > > I'm open for hints and enhancement requests (excuse me that I can't answer > then all). > > --S. > > > 2014-03-21 16:59 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes : > >> On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 14:22 +0100, Richard Z. wrote: >> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 07:17:26AM +0100, Stefan Keller wrote: >> > > Hi Richard, hi Simon >> > > >> > > At 2014-03-14 16:19 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole wrote >> > > > > At 14.03.2014 16:06, schrieb Richard Z.: >> > > > > is there really no way to avoid those horrible captchas whenever >> I add >> > > > > a link to a JOSM bug ticket or another friendly website to the >> wiki?? >> > > ... >> > > > What I saw on Tuesday seem to indicate that ReMAPTCHA (Stefan?) is >> > > > nearly here. As the name says it is map related. >> > > > >> > > > Unluckily it is still a pain to use if you have problems with your >> > > > eyesight, but at least you are not working for google at the same >> time. >> > > >> > > Yes, that's right, we are working hard to release a map related >> > > ReCaptcha, I called ReMAPTCHA. >> > > I will present it at GI_Forum Symposium in Salzburg in July 1-4 2014. >> > > I really hope to have a beta release ready next week! >> > >> > thanks. Even though I have no problems with my eyes I still find it >> > frequently difficult to recognise the distorted letters and have to >> > reload a few times. >> > >> > A working and maintained whitelist would be really good in addition >> > to any captcha improvememnts... >> >> I find the same problems, I have no eyesight issues but often have to >> have several reloads, or guesses before I get them right. If I don't >> need to get passed them I will tend to not bother and go somewhere else. >> >> I have often wondered if these evil things are legal under the >> Disability Discrimination Act (UK), I suppose the audio option gets many >> sites around this. Anything that relies only on good eyesight, without >> an audio alternative, should not be considered as it will almost >> certainly break the DDA. >> >> A google search for "disability discrimination act captcha" brings up >> some interesting stuff. >> >> This one for instance >> http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/Web_and_Internet_Law/Web_Accessibility_Law >> >> Phil (trigpoint) >> >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 online! (Was: Hate captchas!!!!)
Hi, The ReMAPTCHA Demo BETA 0.2 finally is ready to be tested: http://remaptcha.herokuapp.com/ Please note that perfomance is slow (so hover over satellite icon taks seconds), and that the data is restricted to Switzerland since that's the imagery data I needed (if anyone knows freely accessible aerial/satellite imagery of similar quality I'm interested). I'm open for hints and enhancement requests (excuse me that I can't answer then all). --S. 2014-03-21 16:59 GMT+01:00 Philip Barnes : > On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 14:22 +0100, Richard Z. wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 07:17:26AM +0100, Stefan Keller wrote: > > > Hi Richard, hi Simon > > > > > > At 2014-03-14 16:19 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole wrote > > > > > At 14.03.2014 16:06, schrieb Richard Z.: > > > > > is there really no way to avoid those horrible captchas whenever I > add > > > > > a link to a JOSM bug ticket or another friendly website to the > wiki?? > > > ... > > > > What I saw on Tuesday seem to indicate that ReMAPTCHA (Stefan?) is > > > > nearly here. As the name says it is map related. > > > > > > > > Unluckily it is still a pain to use if you have problems with your > > > > eyesight, but at least you are not working for google at the same > time. > > > > > > Yes, that's right, we are working hard to release a map related > > > ReCaptcha, I called ReMAPTCHA. > > > I will present it at GI_Forum Symposium in Salzburg in July 1-4 2014. > > > I really hope to have a beta release ready next week! > > > > thanks. Even though I have no problems with my eyes I still find it > > frequently difficult to recognise the distorted letters and have to > > reload a few times. > > > > A working and maintained whitelist would be really good in addition > > to any captcha improvememnts... > > I find the same problems, I have no eyesight issues but often have to > have several reloads, or guesses before I get them right. If I don't > need to get passed them I will tend to not bother and go somewhere else. > > I have often wondered if these evil things are legal under the > Disability Discrimination Act (UK), I suppose the audio option gets many > sites around this. Anything that relies only on good eyesight, without > an audio alternative, should not be considered as it will almost > certainly break the DDA. > > A google search for "disability discrimination act captcha" brings up > some interesting stuff. > > This one for instance > http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/Web_and_Internet_Law/Web_Accessibility_Law > > Phil (trigpoint) > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
