Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Allan Mustard]

Obscurity won't stop terrorists, so we might as well map them. It will 
make it easier for law enforcement to find them, too.


As an aside, the last couple of months I noticed somebody in 
Turkmenistan had added a number of "banks" and "bars" in Ashgabat, using 
MAPS.ME, with very strange, un-banklike, un-barlike names. Upon 
investigation I found they were electrical substations. Since MAPS.ME 
has no "substation" node preset, this mapper (possibly and in fact most 
probably an employee of Turkmen Energo) was mapping substations and 
annotating them on his smartphone as "banks" or "bars". I had a merry 
afternoon of cleanup in December and another this month.


cheers,
apm


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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Dave F via talk]

On 19/01/2023 10:00, Marc_marc wrote:

it's funny to find here and in different proposals this justification
I find it fanciful 


You don't find tall structures, viewable from miles around useful 
markers while out & about? How strange.


DaveF


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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[MoiraPrime via talk]

Data in general about electrical grids is surprisingly open. Not all of
it is OSM-compatible in a copyright sense, but if you're just doing
casual research or looking into the outage tracking system of various
utilities, both public companies and cooperatives, you'll see how easy
it is to just find this stuff, even if it isn't explicitly mapped in
OpenStreetMap.

Censoring our map over paranoia about fringe incidents isn't the best
idea anyways.

On 1/18/2023 9:03 PM, john whelan wrote:

Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle
bullet through them as happened more than once in the US and given the
situation in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something
similar could happen there?

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies
aviation fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.

Thoughts?

Thank

s John


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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Adam Franco]

As discussed in this Practical Engineering episode
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPwY-FTqWxM>, the publicly visible nature
of the electrical grid makes security through obscurity very difficult if
not impossible. He notes that ballistic-resistant walls around transformers
are a likely future change to protect transformers from these sorts of
attacks from covert off-site locations.

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:48 PM john whelan  wrote:

> I seem to recall there are fewer rifles per head of population in the UK.
> The problem is more a North American one although with the ease of which
> guns can be 3D printed it could be a UK eventually.
>
> On a side issue I wonder if Microsoft's building detector could pick out
> telephone boxes in the UK?
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:40 Nick Whitelegg 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Even still, the location of major substations (e.g the 400-132kv type)
>> isn't really a secret. I could reel off quite a few in the UK without even
>> looking at a map.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* john whelan 
>> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 17:38
>> *To:* Nick Whitelegg 
>> *Cc:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and
>> powerlines?
>>
>> I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for
>> transformers isn't quite so strong.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:15 Nick Whitelegg via talk <
>> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?
>>
>> Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when
>> out walking or hiking.
>>
>> And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used
>> shows them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of
>> continental European countries.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* john whelan 
>> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 03:03
>> *To:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
>> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
>>
>> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
>> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
>> in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
>> there?
>>
>> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>>
>> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
>> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks John
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Russ Garrett]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 at 17:41, john whelan  wrote:
> I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for 
> transformers isn't quite so strong.

In the UK, the location of major transmission lines and substations is
freely available on the National Grid website (well, it's under a
restrictive license but that's not going to stop an attacker):
https://www.nationalgrid.com/electricity-transmission/network-and-infrastructure/network-route-maps

The location of major distribution substations is openly published by
all the electricity distribution network operators in the UK. Some of
them now openly publish highly detailed data on their networks. This
approach is increasingly common across Europe - if anything, the UK is
lagging behind the rest of Europe.

In the USA, the Department for Homeland Security publishes similar
data on substations and transmission lines (it's not as accurate)
along with a whole lot more geospatial data on critical
infrastructure:
https://hifld-geoplatform.opendata.arcgis.com/

It's clear that all these countries have accepted that security by
obscurity doesn't work - transmission substations and transmission
lines are extremely obvious and would be very straightforward to
identify from aerial imagery.

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Jeremy Harris]

On 19/01/2023 17:44, john whelan wrote:

On a side issue I wonder if Microsoft's building detector could pick out
telephone boxes in the UK?


I doubt it.  It doesn't spot the AA box at the A40 / A479 junction.
--
Cheers,
  Jeremy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Dave F via talk]

On 19/01/2023 03:03, john whelan wrote:

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?


No.
Next question?

DaveF


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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Pierre Béland via talk]

Why are we mapping these infrastructures. Well these are major infrastructures 
and quite an asset in OSM to let compare from country to country. Dont you know 
https://openinframap.org/ ?

I do map major infrastructures such as dams, hydro-electric power plants and 
substation and high voltage power lines. I dont think that we should neglect 
these infrastructures. Like for highway networks, we should have a 
classification of major high voltage power lines and render them to lower zooms 
then 14. Power Plants and Substations should be searchable in Nominatim. To 
hide these wont protect them as they can be observed easily from the ground.

Pierre​

--- Original Message ---
Le mercredi 18 janvier 2023 à 22:35, Clifford Snow  a 
écrit :

> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:05 PM john whelan  wrote:
>
>> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet 
>> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation in 
>> Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen 
>> there?
>>
>> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>>
>> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation 
>> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> I live in one of the states where people fired at and damaged a power 
> substation so I'm concerned about the safety of our infrastructure. 
> Unfortunately there are many infrastructures that are vulnerable to attacks. 
> Such facilities as water plants, dams, bridges, transportation, pipelines, 
> hospitals, and a host of others. But I believe that mapping them can also 
> help. If you go back to the idea that "security through obscurity" I think 
> you'll find that it is just an illusion.
>
> BTW - those caught and charged with damaging a power substation here were 
> looking to rob some stores. We all assumed it was right wing radicals.
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> --
>
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[john whelan]

I seem to recall there are fewer rifles per head of population in the UK.
The problem is more a North American one although with the ease of which
guns can be 3D printed it could be a UK eventually.

On a side issue I wonder if Microsoft's building detector could pick out
telephone boxes in the UK?

Cheerio John

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:40 Nick Whitelegg 
wrote:

>
> Even still, the location of major substations (e.g the 400-132kv type)
> isn't really a secret. I could reel off quite a few in the UK without even
> looking at a map.
>
> Nick
>
>
> --
> *From:* john whelan 
> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 17:38
> *To:* Nick Whitelegg 
> *Cc:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and
> powerlines?
>
> I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for
> transformers isn't quite so strong.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:15 Nick Whitelegg via talk <
> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>
> I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?
>
> Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when out
> walking or hiking.
>
> And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used
> shows them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of
> continental European countries.
>
> Nick
>
>
> ------
> *From:* john whelan 
> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 03:03
> *To:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
>
> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
> in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
> there?
>
> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>
> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.openstreetmap.org%2Flistinfo%2Ftalk=05%7C01%7Cnick.whitelegg%40solent.ac.uk%7C976f4ceec26941fdf68a08dafa43f19b%7Cd684e4cd491a4577bf33546478d72e3c%7C0%7C0%7C638097466969506677%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=Wnt8Dqlivd%2F9kn3Npf%2BfPSCc2w8ZSGkGBI1hNvtsuRc%3D=0>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Nick Whitelegg via talk]

Even still, the location of major substations (e.g the 400-132kv type) isn't 
really a secret. I could reel off quite a few in the UK without even looking at 
a map.

Nick



From: john whelan 
Sent: 19 January 2023 17:38
To: Nick Whitelegg 
Cc: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for 
transformers isn't quite so strong.

Cheerio John

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:15 Nick Whitelegg via talk 
mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?

Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when out 
walking or hiking.

And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used shows 
them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of continental European 
countries.

Nick



From: john whelan mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 19 January 2023 03:03
To: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet 
through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation in 
Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen there?

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation fuel 
to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.

Thoughts?

Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[john whelan]

I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for
transformers isn't quite so strong.

Cheerio John

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:15 Nick Whitelegg via talk 
wrote:

>
> I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?
>
> Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when out
> walking or hiking.
>
> And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used
> shows them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of
> continental European countries.
>
> Nick
>
>
> --
> *From:* john whelan 
> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 03:03
> *To:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
>
> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
> in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
> there?
>
> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>
> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Nick Whitelegg via talk]

I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?

Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when out 
walking or hiking.

And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used shows 
them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of continental European 
countries.

Nick



From: john whelan 
Sent: 19 January 2023 03:03
To: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet 
through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation in 
Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen there?

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation fuel 
to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.

Thoughts?

Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 19. Jan. 2023 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb John Whelan <
jwhelan0...@gmail.com>:

> Someone shoots out a dozen at minus 20c, two can cut off electricity to a
> city of a million people.  One or two you can replace quickly a dozen at
> the same time you're talking months to restore power.
>


you should not publicly write about it, because this will make it more
likely to happen...
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[John Whelan]

I suspect you can do a lot less damage to a concrete dam with a rifle 
than a transformer.


As long as we have discussed the matter I think that is all that 
matters. I'm happy and content.


Worse case scenario

A guy called Putin has been targeting them in Ukraine.  Copycat.

Someone shoots out a dozen at minus 20c, two can cut off electricity to 
a city of a million people.  One or two you can replace quickly a dozen 
at the same time you're talking months to restore power.


What sort of idiot would do that?  Well one or two people don't exactly 
love America.  One of the drug cartels whose boss is imprisoned in the US?


Then you have those that would like to overthrow the government or do it 
just for kicks.


Have fun

Cheerio John

Clifford Snow wrote on 1/18/2023 10:35 PM:



On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:05 PM john whelan > wrote:


Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle
bullet through them as happened more than once in the US and given
the situation in Europe at the moment is there a risk that
something similar could happen there?

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies
aviation fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.

Thoughts?


I live in one of the states where people fired at and damaged a power 
substation so I'm concerned about the safety of our infrastructure. 
Unfortunately there are many infrastructures that are vulnerable to 
attacks. Such facilities as water plants, dams, bridges, 
transportation, pipelines, hospitals, and a host of others. But I 
believe that mapping them can also help. If you go back to the idea 
that "security through obscurity" I think you'll find that it is just 
an illusion.


BTW - those caught and charged with damaging a power substation here 
were looking to rob some stores. We all assumed it was right wing 
radicals.


Best,
Clifford

--
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us 
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

The example from Marc_marc tells us keeping underground things hidden is bad 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghislenghien_disaster

As for underwater, in the 1990s and early 2000s Iceland kept getting 
disconnected from the rest of the Internet by fishing ships trawling the 
CANTAT-3 branch, which for the early parts was the only connection to the 
Internet for the whole country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANTAT-3



19. janúar 2023 kl. 12:57, skrifaði "Niels Elgaard Larsen" :

> john whelan:
> 
>> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet 
>> through them > as happened
>> more than once in the US and given the situation in Europe at the moment > 
>> is there a risk that
>> something similar could happen there?
>> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation 
>> fuel to > airports is
>> considered an official secret in the UK.
> 
> Transformers and powerlines are not official secrets. And they can be spotted 
> by anyone passing by
> and be seen on aerial images.
> 
> It does make more sense to keep objects underground or underwater secret.
> 
> We do have https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1098580572
> 
> But I do not know if it is precise enough for a submarine with a bomb.
> And there are official maps with the layout, e.g.,
> https://www.mynewsdesk.com/dk/energistyrelsen/documents/kort-over-nord-stream-2-linjefoering-paa-dan
> k-omraade-68552
> 
> -- Niels Elgaard Larsen
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

john whelan:
Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet through them 
as happened more than once in the US and given the situation in Europe at the moment 
is there a risk that something similar could happen there?


Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation fuel to 
airports is considered an official secret in the UK.



Transformers and powerlines are not official secrets. And they can be spotted by 
anyone passing by and be seen on aerial images.


It does make more sense to keep objects underground or underwater secret.

We do have https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1098580572

But I do not know if it is precise enough for a submarine with a bomb.
And there are official maps with the layout, e.g.,
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/dk/energistyrelsen/documents/kort-over-nord-stream-2-linjefoering-paa-dansk-omraade-68552


--
Niels Elgaard Larsen


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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Marc_marc]

Le 19.01.23 à 04:29, Brian M. Sperlongano a écrit :

Navigational landmarks while hiking.


it's funny to find here and in different proposals this justification
I find it fanciful
yesterday I mapped the species of a tree, it is practical to navigate: 
to go to mr dupont, take the road with a apple tree on the left,

a hedge of 2m12 on the right, a street cabinet of the ABC operator
then a house of 2 floors, at the 4th manhole cover, you arrived :)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Marc_marc]

Le 19.01.23 à 04:03, john whelan a écrit :

Thoughts?


a criminal has already used a kitchen knife to commit a murder,
now in the press we regularly see comments saying that carrying
a knife is a reprehensible act. may I still map a shop selling knife ?
I hope that no criminal will use a chair or a computer keyboard to 
commit a crime, it would not be convenient to contribute to osm


security by obscurantism (combined unfortunately with incompetence)
has cost the lives of 24 people in Belgium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghislenghien_disaster



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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Ilya Zverev]

Believing that not mapping power lines on OSM would stop people from damaging 
them is the same as believing removing a path from the map would stop people 
from walking on it.

It is not our job to police people. Any knowledge can be used to hurt. But the 
alternative to mapping is not knowing, and that I believe is worse.

Ilya

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, at 05:03, john whelan wrote:
> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet 
> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation in 
> Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen 
> there?
> 
> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
> 
> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation 
> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK. 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks John
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 19. Jan. 2023 um 04:17 Uhr schrieb john whelan <
jwhelan0...@gmail.com>:

> Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them?
>


this is really not a question we ever ask ourselves regarding mappability,
while there are of course some answers to this for power infrastructure, it
is not relevant to determine whether they can be mapped. The question we
ask is: does it exist.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Warin]

On 19/1/23 14:03, john whelan wrote:
Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle 
bullet through them as happened more than once in the US and given the 
situation in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something 
similar could happen there?


Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies 
aviation fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.


Thoughts?




The major ones appear on the government topo maps, so they are not 
'secret'.


There is lots of 'infrastructure' that has vulnerability yet is mapped. 
My mother was concerned when she saw a map of the snowy mountains scheme 
when she first went there, concerned that so foreign power would obtain 
that information for use in a war... Both the Rusian and American mapped 
the world with their own topo maps for potential military use years ago, 
some of them are available on the web.


If they don't appear on OSM maps people will simply change to other 
sources. I see no point in there removal.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Paul Johnson]

Ever been lost someplace where that's the only obvious set of fixed
landmarks?

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 9:16 PM john whelan  wrote:

> Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea,  wrote:
>
>> I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh.  But I
>> understand that people can be sensitive.
>>
>> But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more
>> free rather than less free.  What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or
>> kindergartens because they have children?
>>
>> Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen.  We
>> mappers ourselves are not criminals for mapping.
>>
>> Map.  Map well.  Criminals will be criminals.  While there are book
>> banning people, librarians are not criminals.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:05 PM john whelan  wrote:

> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
> in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
> there?
>
> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>
> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>
> Thoughts?
>

I live in one of the states where people fired at and damaged a power
substation so I'm concerned about the safety of our infrastructure.
Unfortunately there are many infrastructures that are vulnerable to
attacks. Such facilities as water plants, dams, bridges, transportation,
pipelines, hospitals, and a host of others. But I believe that mapping them
can also help. If you go back to the idea that "security through obscurity"
I think you'll find that it is just an illusion.

BTW - those caught and charged with damaging a power substation here were
looking to rob some stores. We all assumed it was right wing radicals.

Best,
Clifford


-- 
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Navigational landmarks while hiking.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:17 PM john whelan  wrote:

> Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea,  wrote:
>
>> I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh.  But I
>> understand that people can be sensitive.
>>
>> But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more
>> free rather than less free.  What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or
>> kindergartens because they have children?
>>
>> Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen.  We
>> mappers ourselves are not criminals for mapping.
>>
>> Map.  Map well.  Criminals will be criminals.  While there are book
>> banning people, librarians are not criminals.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[stevea]

On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:13 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them?

I don't wish to sound antagonistic, but that's like asking "what good is our 
map" and expecting the infinite "creative and unexpected purposes" that have, 
do and will evolve from our data to be a complete answer.  It can't ever be 
complete.

Power lines "exist."  They are "in the real world."  Sometimes they are "in the 
way."  (Perhaps I am flying my drone or hang-gliding).  Their poles and towers 
sometimes have wide swaths upon the landscape and make a human, technological 
path wherever they are, they deserved to be mapped.  So do their often-fenced 
substation structures and related infrastructure.  If an owner / power company 
needs to beef up its security, that is little to no concern of mine as an OSM 
mapper.

It's a valuable conversation to have, I'll agree.  I don't like hearing about 
rifle-accurate attacks that take out quite expensive infrastructure with a box 
of well-placed bullets, but that is the world we live in (in some places).  The 
world we map in?  I'll keep on mapping (including power infrastructure, if for 
no other reason than "others make pretty spider-webby renderings" of power 
infrastructure, and I like to look at those).  I'm not a nutter with a gun, I'm 
a mapper.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[john whelan]

Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them?

Thanks John

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea,  wrote:

> I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh.  But I
> understand that people can be sensitive.
>
> But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more
> free rather than less free.  What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or
> kindergartens because they have children?
>
> Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen.  We mappers
> ourselves are not criminals for mapping.
>
> Map.  Map well.  Criminals will be criminals.  While there are book
> banning people, librarians are not criminals.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[stevea]

I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh.  But I 
understand that people can be sensitive.

But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more free 
rather than less free.  What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or 
kindergartens because they have children?

Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen.  We mappers 
ourselves are not criminals for mapping.

Map.  Map well.  Criminals will be criminals.  While there are book banning 
people, librarians are not criminals.
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[OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[john whelan]

Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
there?

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.

Thoughts?

Thanks John
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