Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Juan Lucas Domínguez Rubio]

Hello. Those little place-names are estates, not towns:
http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/post/22245375879/one-has-heard-the-news-about-the-eu-economy-but 
Regards,Juan Lucas


--- On Tue, 5/15/12, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM
To: "osm" 
Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 12:33 PM

I couldn't find a contact possibilty on the page, that's why I try it here.

Worst of OSM is a nice idea IMHO:

http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/

What I really miss though is a possibility to comment / discuss the
examples. This could help to explain the context of the screenshot as
well as discuss some examples which might be disputed.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2012/5/19 Robert Kaiser :
> I think the only thing I saw so far that can be correct is the minecraft
> stuff in the US. Anything else needs fixing


I think that the picture of the German village is in no way "worst".
Having buildings drawn is better than not having them, and angles and
stuff can always be refined at a later point. I guess it would be very
demotivating if I had traced my home village and someone came up on a
webpage stating that this was "worst of OSM" (a judgement that I
cannot share at all).

I don't even agree that a building drawn with 90 degree-angles is
necessarily better or more precise than one that is drawn freehand. If
you see a perfect rectangle on the map you get the impression that it
must be precise, but it can be missaligned (rotated) or often not even
be a rectangle in reality (I frequently come across buildings that are
not rectangles but represented with one or more rectangles in OSM
because it is easy to do this with some tools).

My point is: if you see something obviously drawn freehand you know
what you are looking at, instead if there is something that is done
with lots of right angles it does often look "true" but it is often
not more correct than something drawn freehand. I guess in some cases
it would be more helpful to have a freehand approximation which allows
for interpretation than something that is forced into a 90-degree
grid.

I am really sorry that there is still no way to comment (e.g. you
could defend some of the examples or stretch out the problems of
others).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[AJ Ashton]

On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Aun Johnsen  wrote:
> Just to imform you, the Brazilian community are looking at reducing the
> number of un-named roads, unfortienately the dataset which are used mostly
> covers rural areas. Urban areas will also be addressed. Hopefully the
> community can reduce the number of unnamed roads significantly during the
> next months.

Also, in the Brasilia area (which is where WoO's Brazilian example is
from) the lack of street names may be accurate to what is on the
ground. See the discussion from tagging@ last month about the system
of block numbering used there:



-- 
AJ Ashton

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Aun Johnsen]

Hi

Just to imform you, the Brazilian community are looking at reducing the
number of un-named roads, unfortienately the dataset which are used mostly
covers rural areas. Urban areas will also be addressed. Hopefully the
community can reduce the number of unnamed roads significantly during the
next months.

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 21:07:14 +0200
From: Robert Kaiser 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Maarten Deen schrieb:
> I have looked at some examples, and while some are just caused
> by the nature of our (armchair) mapping (non-existing roadnames in
> Brazil) and some seem to be correct (the street-like boundaries on a
> mountain on Java), some really need discussing and fixing

I think the only thing I saw so far that can be correct is the minecraft
stuff in the US. Anything else needs fixing, including the borders on
that mountain, I'm pretty sure that admin_level=4 is not the right one
to use there, even though levels >2 are somewhat fuzzy.
Also, it's pretty telling to click on the pictures and look at the data
we have there now - looks like the community is working in many cases
and fixing at least some of the problems! :)
Of course, where we have less community and fewer people looking at
sites like that, there's no change (yet).

In any case, I think the name is demotivating, but having something like
that showing where work is needed is very good, and when you're able to
view it with humor, it works out well.

Robert Kaiser
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Robert Kaiser]

Maarten Deen schrieb:

I have looked at some examples, and while some are just caused
by the nature of our (armchair) mapping (non-existing roadnames in
Brazil) and some seem to be correct (the street-like boundaries on a
mountain on Java), some really need discussing and fixing


I think the only thing I saw so far that can be correct is the minecraft 
stuff in the US. Anything else needs fixing, including the borders on 
that mountain, I'm pretty sure that admin_level=4 is not the right one 
to use there, even though levels >2 are somewhat fuzzy.
Also, it's pretty telling to click on the pictures and look at the data 
we have there now - looks like the community is working in many cases 
and fixing at least some of the problems! :)
Of course, where we have less community and fewer people looking at 
sites like that, there's no change (yet).


In any case, I think the name is demotivating, but having something like 
that showing where work is needed is very good, and when you're able to 
view it with humor, it works out well.


Robert Kaiser


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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Hermann Peifer]

On 15/05/2012 15:37, Pieren wrote:

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Kate Chapman  wrote:


Personally I think it is discouraging. I think positive encouragement
is much better than this negative method.


The problem is that this page is mixing real mistakes (mainly bad
imports) and areas where the geodata do not comply with...


The page also includes a good part of ignorance. The Worst of "Worst of 
OSM" is an example from Brasilia where the question is: "Do they have 
road names at all in Brazil?"


The simple answer is: Not necessarily in Brasilia, where block names are 
quite popular. This went over various lists recently, e.g. [1]. If one 
doesn't know a minimum about a given area, it could be wise to keep 
one's mouth shut rather than pointing to "mistakes".


Hermann

[1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2012-April/009878.html

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Steve Doerr]

'Visualization' is not (just) American English. It's the preferred 
spelling of Oxford University Press and many other British academic 
publishers.


Steve

On 15/05/2012 19:50, Alan Mintz wrote:

At 2012-05-15 09:25, andrzej zaborowski wrote:


Maybe the fact that it's German (assuming that it is) is a sign of
OSM's popularity there, and approaching Google Maps.


The caption language doesn't really sound like "DEnglish", or even UK 
English, though. The spelling is American English (e.g. "visualization").


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Alan Mintz]

At 2012-05-15 09:25, andrzej zaborowski wrote:


Maybe the fact that it's German (assuming that it is) is a sign of
OSM's popularity there, and approaching Google Maps.


The caption language doesn't really sound like "DEnglish", or even UK 
English, though. The spelling is American English (e.g. "visualization").


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Alan Mintz]

At 2012-05-15 07:10, Pieren wrote:

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Maarten Deen  wrote:

> The problem with the spanish place names is not that there are no roads
> connecting them, the problem is that they are not places. The area is
> unpopulated.

But they are all tagged with "place=locality" which is correct for
unpopulated places (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Locality).


Maybe. Is it possible that those are not real villages, but names of 
historical villages or settlements (and shouldn't be tagged as current 
placenames)? Can someone in Spain comment?


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Alan Mintz]

I didn't understand the comment about Minecraft. Did they think there was a 
problem with the square forest boundaries? Did they not realize that those 
are likely the actual defined boundaries of the forest (at least that's 
what they correctly look like in southern California)?


Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with address points with no 
building outlines. San Diego, CA is full of that (from an import). It would 
be impossible to map with Potlatch (it's already tough) if someone added 
building outlines to this already-quite-dense area. It only recently became 
reasonable to map with JOSM because of the ability to filter the download 
process.


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[andrzej zaborowski]

On 15 May 2012 15:37, Pieren  wrote:
> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Kate Chapman  wrote:
>> Personally I think it is discouraging. I think positive encouragement
>> is much better than this negative method.
>
> The problem is that this page is mixing real mistakes (mainly bad
> imports) and areas where the geodata do not comply with the author
> priorities or what the author thinks about what should be mapped first
> (mainly good imports). He is probably restrained by his personal
> experience where mapping must start with major roads, places names
> then minor roads, all with GPS and then, landuse, buildings,
> addresses, etc with hires aerial imagery, all surveyed by an army of
> local enthusiasts.

The site seems to mostly make fun of the current resulting state of
the map, rather than the process that led to that state.  I'd compare
it to http://googlemapsfail.tumblr.com/ rather than argue whether it
is useful to OSM or not.  If it hadn't been created now, someone else
would create one at some later point.

Maybe the fact that it's German (assuming that it is) is a sign of
OSM's popularity there, and approaching Google Maps.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Simone Cortesi]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:43 PM, SomeoneElse
 wrote:
> Kate Chapman wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Personally I think it is discouraging. I think positive encouragement
>> is much better than this negative method.
> Maybe there's a place for both, but one "worst" example appears to be
> someone who's been mapping their home town for about a month, which really
> isn't fair game.  The dodgy imports, however, probably are...

Still, I find the website dead funny...  Love it.

-- 
-S

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 05/15/12 12:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

What I really miss though is a possibility to comment / discuss the
examples. This could help to explain the context of the screenshot as
well as discuss some examples which might be disputed.


There has been some discussion about individual items and the WOO site 
in general on the German forum. Most people found it rather funny and 
the criticism well-deserved, but some also were offended and felt that 
their (and their peers') hard work should be respected, not ridiculed.


I like the idea in general (even though some items were rather lame) and 
I noticed that many of the issues have been fixed somehow in the mean 
time. But there are downsides; one is that with WOO only showing things 
that you can see on the map and this might propagate "tagging for the 
renderer" (or vice versa - as long as it doesn't show up on the map you 
can do whatever you want). The other is that the WOO site seems to have 
"inspired" this guy to go on an automated "fixing" rampage, 
cowboy-style: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/WorstFixer/


But from the looks of it, I don't think WOO is here to stay - they are 
already starting to repeat themselves and I don't think that there are 
enough ugly things to keep them going for more than a few weeks.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Pieren]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Maarten Deen  wrote:

> The problem with the spanish place names is not that there are no roads
> connecting them, the problem is that they are not places. The area is
> unpopulated.

But they are all tagged with "place=locality" which is correct for
unpopulated places (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Locality).
The problem is maybe the rendering style showing them at inappropriate
zoom levels (e.g.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.5671&lon=7.6326&zoom=14&layers=M).

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Maarten Deen]

On 2012-05-15 15:37, Pieren wrote:


Italian forest or the spanish place names without roads or the street


The problem with the spanish place names is not that there are no roads 
connecting them, the problem is that they are not places. The area is 
unpopulated. There is not even a house to be seen on the Bing arials.

Maybe they are names for areas, but they are not place names.
And the Spanish population does not grow so fast that new villages get 
created that fast, so I do think the aerials are a good indication of 
what's there.


That's why I call it a bad import.

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[SomeoneElse]

Kate Chapman wrote:

Hi All,

Personally I think it is discouraging. I think positive encouragement
is much better than this negative method.


Maybe there's a place for both, but one "worst" example appears to be 
someone who's been mapping their home town for about a month, which 
really isn't fair game.  The dodgy imports, however, probably are...


Cheers,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Pieren]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Kate Chapman  wrote:

> Personally I think it is discouraging. I think positive encouragement
> is much better than this negative method.

The problem is that this page is mixing real mistakes (mainly bad
imports) and areas where the geodata do not comply with the author
priorities or what the author thinks about what should be mapped first
(mainly good imports). He is probably restrained by his personal
experience where mapping must start with major roads, places names
then minor roads, all with GPS and then, landuse, buildings,
addresses, etc with hires aerial imagery, all surveyed by an army of
local enthusiasts.
This is a german centric view of how mapping should work because many
(if not the majority) of the countries in the world do not have enough
people surveying on the ground or even have an internet connection to
know that OSM exists. For instance, I'm not shocked by the detailed
Italian forest or the spanish place names without roads or the street
numbers without buildings. Remember, first OSM coastlines was also a
mass-import with nothing else mapped around during years.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Peteris Krisjanis]

Hi!

For parody it has quite a attacking tone.

But I was forgot about Best Of OSM. Looks nice, needs some additions for
my country, but it's something I can show when someone asks what OSM can
provide.

Peter. 

O , 2012-05-15 14:01 +0100, Gregory rakstīja:
> 
> 
> It's a great site. It shows the variety and reach of OSM work. It's
> also fun to look at the older posts, click the links, and see
> improvements.
> Calling "Worst of OSM" is because there is
> the http://bestofosm.org/ website and the opportunity for parody, but
> I can see that will have the danger of upsetting someone. There will
> be reasons why the owner is anonymous and it allows for anonymous
> submissions.
> 
> 
> I agree comments should be enabled.
> Hopefully the owner of the site will see this thread, or perhaps we
> should request it using the submissions form.
> 
> 
> 
> On 15 May 2012 12:57, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> On 2012-05-15 12:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I couldn't find a contact possibilty on the page,
> that's why I try it here.
> 
> Worst of OSM is a nice idea IMHO:
> 
> http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/
> 
> What I really miss though is a possibility to
> comment / discuss the
> examples. This could help to explain the context of
> the screenshot as
> well as discuss some examples which might be disputed.
> 
> 
> I agree. I have looked at some examples, and while some are
> just caused by the nature of our (armchair) mapping
> (non-existing roadnames in Brazil) and some seem to be correct
> (the street-like boundaries on a mountain on Java), some
> really need discussing and fixing, like the crossing in
> (Leipzig)-Schönau, which has been tidied up, but is still
> broken IMHO (mapping every single lane is not a good idea
> IMHO), and like the "3% of villages in Spain" example, which
> looks like an automated import gone wrong.
> 
> Regards,
> Maarten
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Gregory]

It's a great site. It shows the variety and reach of OSM work. It's also
fun to look at the older posts, click the links, and see improvements.
Calling "Worst of OSM" is because there is the http://bestofosm.org/ website
and the opportunity for parody, but I can see that will have the danger of
upsetting someone. There will be reasons why the owner is anonymous and it
allows for anonymous submissions.

I agree comments should be enabled.
Hopefully the owner of the site will see this thread, or perhaps we should
request it using the submissions form.


On 15 May 2012 12:57, Maarten Deen  wrote:

> On 2012-05-15 12:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> I couldn't find a contact possibilty on the page, that's why I try it
>> here.
>>
>> Worst of OSM is a nice idea IMHO:
>>
>> http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/
>>
>> What I really miss though is a possibility to comment / discuss the
>> examples. This could help to explain the context of the screenshot as
>> well as discuss some examples which might be disputed.
>>
>
> I agree. I have looked at some examples, and while some are just caused by
> the nature of our (armchair) mapping (non-existing roadnames in Brazil) and
> some seem to be correct (the street-like boundaries on a mountain on Java),
> some really need discussing and fixing, like the crossing in
> (Leipzig)-Schönau, which has been tidied up, but is still broken IMHO
> (mapping every single lane is not a good idea IMHO), and like the "3% of
> villages in Spain" example, which looks like an automated import gone wrong.
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Kate Chapman]

Hi All,

Personally I think it is discouraging. I think positive encouragement
is much better than this negative method. Sure it is helpful to
discuss problems somewhere but I think calling it the Worst of OSM is
unfair. If the "map is never done" then isn't everything technically
the worst at some point? At least compared to the future?   For
example the boundaries in Java are correct, they just shouldn't be
mapped as Province level, they are villages.  Sure I could go fix it,
but I'm working with the mappers there locally to fix their mapping
mistakes.

If we want to be a map of the entire world encouraging people will
work much more than discouraging them.

-Kate

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> On 2012-05-15 12:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> I couldn't find a contact possibilty on the page, that's why I try it
>> here.
>>
>> Worst of OSM is a nice idea IMHO:
>>
>> http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/
>>
>> What I really miss though is a possibility to comment / discuss the
>> examples. This could help to explain the context of the screenshot as
>> well as discuss some examples which might be disputed.
>
>
> I agree. I have looked at some examples, and while some are just caused by
> the nature of our (armchair) mapping (non-existing roadnames in Brazil) and
> some seem to be correct (the street-like boundaries on a mountain on Java),
> some really need discussing and fixing, like the crossing in
> (Leipzig)-Schönau, which has been tidied up, but is still broken IMHO
> (mapping every single lane is not a good idea IMHO), and like the "3% of
> villages in Spain" example, which looks like an automated import gone wrong.
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Maarten Deen]

On 2012-05-15 12:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I couldn't find a contact possibilty on the page, that's why I try it 
here.


Worst of OSM is a nice idea IMHO:

http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/

What I really miss though is a possibility to comment / discuss the
examples. This could help to explain the context of the screenshot as
well as discuss some examples which might be disputed.


I agree. I have looked at some examples, and while some are just caused 
by the nature of our (armchair) mapping (non-existing roadnames in 
Brazil) and some seem to be correct (the street-like boundaries on a 
mountain on Java), some really need discussing and fixing, like the 
crossing in (Leipzig)-Schönau, which has been tidied up, but is still 
broken IMHO (mapping every single lane is not a good idea IMHO), and 
like the "3% of villages in Spain" example, which looks like an 
automated import gone wrong.


Regards,
Maarten


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[OSM-talk] Worst of OSM

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I couldn't find a contact possibilty on the page, that's why I try it here.

Worst of OSM is a nice idea IMHO:

http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/

What I really miss though is a possibility to comment / discuss the
examples. This could help to explain the context of the screenshot as
well as discuss some examples which might be disputed.

cheers,
Martin

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