Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-10-08 10:26 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen :

> Making a relation for each concession greatly improves maintainability.
> You only have to load one relation in JOSM to get all lines and work from
> there.
> I would be really cross if someone decides to delete those relations :P
>


there's a relation like this in here as well, but technically it is not
strictly necessary. You could have the same effect with overpass api
querying for network tags (in combination with the type of object you'd
want to get, e.g. routes or bus stops), possibly limiting the query to the
approx. area of interest.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-10-08 09:44, Jo wrote:

The way I do it (and in no way am I saying it is the only way or the
correct way to do it, but it seems to hold up fine) is make one
relation for each seperate destination (usually two: a->b and b->a,
sometimes 4: a->c->b, a->d->b, b->c->a and b->d->a) and group those
relations in a master relation. The master relations get grouped in
a (master-master) relation that holds all buslines for one
concession.


Where is this master-master documented? I think some may shoot it
down, calling it a category. I use the operator and network tags to
group 'concessions', although here in Belgium they correspond to the
provinces.


It is not documented.
In the Netherlands we have at present 35 concessions for buses [1]. 
These concessions will change operators regularly (they range in 
duration from 10 to 20 years, so on average every year 2 concessions 
will end) and a new operator has new ideas, new lines, etc. Also 
sometimes concessions get split or combined.
Making a relation for each concession greatly improves maintainability. 
You only have to load one relation in JOSM to get all lines and work 
from there.

I would be really cross if someone decides to delete those relations :P


I believe officially you should only add nodes with
"public_transport=stop_position", but in absence of those I also add
"highway=bus_stop" (or even tag those with
"public_transport=stop_position" which is not entirely correct).


Don't  you mean public_transport=platform in that first sentence? I
think the official 'party line' is to add both platforms and
stop_positions.


That's not how I do it. But again: I'm not saying I'm doing it 100% 
correctly.


[1] 



Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Jo]

2015-10-08 9:39 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> 2015-10-08 4:12 GMT+02:00 Clifford Snow :
>
>> If the bus travels over the same way going two different directions, is
>> the way added twice to the relationship, which means ignoring the JOSM
>> warning message? Or is the way only entered once with just no
>> forward/backward direction?
>
>
>
>
> After adding lots of bus routes (literally hundreds) and trying the
> different options, a mapper colleague in my area told me that the best way
> would be to use distinct relations for both directions and eventually
> combine them in a third relation. He used combined relations before but now
> has converted all of them to the new scheme.
>
> Here's an example:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1693163
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1693164
>
> Masterrelation to tie them together:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2208235
>
> If you use backward and forward roles the situation becomes rather opaque
> and much more difficult to spot errors.
>

True, I think we're all moving away from trying to use 1 relation to
describe all the possible variations of the routes.

The only issue I see with your route relations is that they don't have a
public_transport:version=2 (JOSM's validator will complain about that) and
that the platform nodes got the role=stop.

Polyglot
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Jo]

> Where is this master-master documented? I think some may shoot it
>> down, calling it a category. I use the operator and network tags to
>> group 'concessions', although here in Belgium they correspond to the
>> provinces.
>>
>
> It is not documented.
> In the Netherlands we have at present 35 concessions for buses [1]. These
> concessions will change operators regularly (they range in duration from 10
> to 20 years, so on average every year 2 concessions will end) and a new
> operator has new ideas, new lines, etc. Also sometimes concessions get
> split or combined.
> Making a relation for each concession greatly improves maintainability.
> You only have to load one relation in JOSM to get all lines and work from
> there.
> I would be really cross if someone decides to delete those relations :P
>

No worries I wasn't proposing to delete them.

>
> I believe officially you should only add nodes with
>>> "public_transport=stop_position", but in absence of those I also add
>>> "highway=bus_stop" (or even tag those with
>>> "public_transport=stop_position" which is not entirely correct).
>>>
>>
>> Don't  you mean public_transport=platform in that first sentence? I
>> think the official 'party line' is to add both platforms and
>> stop_positions.
>>
>
> That's not how I do it. But again: I'm not saying I'm doing it 100%
> correctly.
>

Me neither. I only add the platform nodes (nodes beside the way) to the
route relations. Maintenance on these route relations is hard enough,
without complicating matters unnecessarily.

Polyglot
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-10-08 4:12 GMT+02:00 Clifford Snow :

> If the bus travels over the same way going two different directions, is
> the way added twice to the relationship, which means ignoring the JOSM
> warning message? Or is the way only entered once with just no
> forward/backward direction?




After adding lots of bus routes (literally hundreds) and trying the
different options, a mapper colleague in my area told me that the best way
would be to use distinct relations for both directions and eventually
combine them in a third relation. He used combined relations before but now
has converted all of them to the new scheme.

Here's an example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1693163
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1693164

Masterrelation to tie them together:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2208235

If you use backward and forward roles the situation becomes rather opaque
and much more difficult to spot errors.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-10-08 10:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2015-10-08 10:26 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen :


Making a relation for each concession greatly improves
maintainability. You only have to load one relation in JOSM to get
all lines and work from there.
I would be really cross if someone decides to delete those relations
:P


there's a relation like this in here as well, but technically it is
not strictly necessary. You could have the same effect with overpass
api querying for network tags (in combination with the type of object
you'd want to get, e.g. routes or bus stops), possibly limiting the
query to the approx. area of interest.


I've tried, but the overpass API gives me incomplete data.
I have this query:

  




It only downloads relations of type=route. All master relations 
(type=route_master, example relation 2127651) are ignored.


Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Jo]

2015-10-08 17:37 GMT+02:00 Clifford Snow :

> Looks like I need to find a different route, something easier. What I
> picked looked easy, only 4 stops, but over 100km long.
>
> My plan is to do as suggested, a relationship for each direction. When
> done, I'll look at a master relation for all.
>
> So two questions:
> 1) When looking at the bus routes in Rome, I noticed bus_stops are group
> together in the relation, not interspersed between ways. I would have
> thought that the stops would be in spatial order with the ways.
>

All the stops are together, either as the first members or the last. In the
order they are served.

>
> 2) Is it necessary to use forward/backward if the ways are in order?
>

There is no need for roles on the ways. If you put all of them in order,
you'll notice JOSM draws a continuous line on the right side of the
relation editor. This is quite nice to check whether the route is still
continuous. The route relations are fragile...
If you intersperse the stops among the ways, the continuity becomes harder
to check.

Polyglot
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Clifford Snow]

Looks like I need to find a different route, something easier. What I
picked looked easy, only 4 stops, but over 100km long.

My plan is to do as suggested, a relationship for each direction. When
done, I'll look at a master relation for all.

So two questions:
1) When looking at the bus routes in Rome, I noticed bus_stops are group
together in the relation, not interspersed between ways. I would have
thought that the stops would be in spatial order with the ways.

2) Is it necessary to use forward/backward if the ways are in order?

Clifford

-- 
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osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[pierzenh]

Edit / PreferencesLeft Section, Click on the WMS/TMS Button
Rigth Section, Bottom panel, click on the TMS button
Copy / Paste this content in the first field 
http://mw1.gstatic.com/crisisresponse/firstlook/2015/firstlook_PO_054370506010_01_2015_05_13_maptiles/{x}_{y}_{zoom}.png
Section 3. Verify url will automatically add the prefix tms: to it.
At the bottom, 4. Layer Name, provide a name for this layer and click on the 
Validate button.Click again on the Validate button to confirm your update.
 You now can add this layer selecting from the Imagery Menu.

Zoom to this area and you should see the layer.In JOSM, press Ctrl-j and add 
the link
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/29.173669467787114/81.38116785175609
 
http://mw1.gstatic.com/crisisresponse/firstlook/2015/firstlook_PO_054370506010_01_2015_05_13_maptiles/{x}_{y}_{zoom}.png
A web link to a tile shows that these tiles are 
availablehttp://mw1.gstatic.com/crisisresponse/firstlook/2015/firstlook_PO_054370506010_01_2015_05_13_maptiles/11899_6808_14.png

regard

Pierre 

  De : Maarten Deen <md...@xs4all.nl>
 À : osm <talk@openstreetmap.org> 
 Envoyé le : Jeudi 8 octobre 2015 11h28
 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes
   
On 2015-10-08 10:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2015-10-08 10:26 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen <md...@xs4all.nl>:
> 
>> Making a relation for each concession greatly improves
>> maintainability. You only have to load one relation in JOSM to get
>> all lines and work from there.
>> I would be really cross if someone decides to delete those relations
>> :P
> 
> there's a relation like this in here as well, but technically it is
> not strictly necessary. You could have the same effect with overpass
> api querying for network tags (in combination with the type of object
> you'd want to get, e.g. routes or bus stops), possibly limiting the
> query to the approx. area of interest.

I've tried, but the overpass API gives me incomplete data.
I have this query:

  




It only downloads relations of type=route. All master relations 
(type=route_master, example relation 2127651) are ignored.

Regards,


Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 08.10.2015 um 17:37 schrieb Clifford Snow :
> 
> 1) When looking at the bus routes in Rome, I noticed bus_stops are group 
> together in the relation, not interspersed between ways. I would have thought 
> that the stops would be in spatial order with the ways. 



that's what josm does when you automatically sort. I suggest you do this to 
check for continuity problems

cheers
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 08.10.2015 um 17:37 schrieb Clifford Snow :
> 
> 2) Is it necessary to use forward/backward if the ways are in order?


if you have one relation per direction you should not need these roles (afaik)

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Eduardo]

El 07/10/2015 8:12 pm, Clifford Snow escribió:

I'm trying to add my first bus route. I'm struggling to understand how
to properly add the relation. The route, like most bus routes, loops
back over the same ways. So my questions:

If the bus travels over the same way going two different directions,
is the way added twice to the relationship, which means ignoring the
JOSM warning message? Or is the way only entered once with just no
forward/backward direction?


Adding the way to the relation twice, in the proper order, is what makes 
more
sense to me. Of course, only if the bus travels over it twice in the 
same

direction of travel (either outwards or returning).


Are there any good tutorials to add bus routes?


I cannot point to one. I had to learn it the hard way.



Eduardo

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Jo]

Hi,

I wrote something about it here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Polyglot/diary/28401

It's written as a reaction to how the stops are mapped in Germany. The way
I see it, the nodes next to the ways are the more important ones, so they
are the ones that get added to the route relations and they are the ones
with all the details.

It's my impression that in Germany the stop posiiton nodes (which are part
of the highways) get all the details. Or sometimes both the platforms and
the stop_positions, which I tried to avoid for simplicity (of maintenance).

Anyway, I created a MapCSS style for visualising it more clearly and
several scripts, but they are most useful if the data of the operators is
available.

I also requested an improvement to JOSM. In expert mode, it's now possible
to sort the ways from 'this point forward'. (so leaving alone all the
members above).

There is one thing I do differently now compared to the period I recorded
those videos. All the platform nodes now go first, then the ways in the
order the bus or tram travels along them. If the bus passes the same
stretch of road twice, it will be in the route relation twice, showing up
red. This doesn't happen very often for trams, but it's a lot more frequent
for buses than one would expect.

Polyglot

2015-10-08 5:28 GMT+02:00 Eduardo :

> El 07/10/2015 8:12 pm, Clifford Snow escribió:
>
>> I'm trying to add my first bus route. I'm struggling to understand how
>> to properly add the relation. The route, like most bus routes, loops
>> back over the same ways. So my questions:
>>
>> If the bus travels over the same way going two different directions,
>> is the way added twice to the relationship, which means ignoring the
>> JOSM warning message? Or is the way only entered once with just no
>> forward/backward direction?
>>
>
> Adding the way to the relation twice, in the proper order, is what makes
> more
> sense to me. Of course, only if the bus travels over it twice in the same
> direction of travel (either outwards or returning).
>
> Are there any good tutorials to add bus routes?
>>
>
> I cannot point to one. I had to learn it the hard way.
>
>
>
> Eduardo
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Andrew Errington]

I am keen to know the right answer.  Last time I tried it I ended up
creating two routes.  One for outbound, and one for inbound.  Having both
together in the same relation was a bit claustrophobic.  I think I found a
discussion somewhere which resulted in the same conclusion, but I can't
remember where.

Best wishes,

Andrew

(That reminds me, our local bus terminal has moved, so I have to un-pick
the bit of the routes that went to the old location and re-direct them to
the new one)

On 8 October 2015 at 11:12, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> I'm trying to add my first bus route. I'm struggling to understand how to
> properly add the relation. The route, like most bus routes, loops back over
> the same ways. So my questions:
>
> If the bus travels over the same way going two different directions, is
> the way added twice to the relationship, which means ignoring the JOSM
> warning message? Or is the way only entered once with just no
> forward/backward direction?
>
> Are there any good tutorials to add bus routes?
>
> Thanks,
> Clifford
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-10-08 04:12, Clifford Snow wrote:

I'm trying to add my first bus route. I'm struggling to understand how
to properly add the relation. The route, like most bus routes, loops
back over the same ways. So my questions:

If the bus travels over the same way going two different directions,
is the way added twice to the relationship, which means ignoring the
JOSM warning message? Or is the way only entered once with just no
forward/backward direction?

Are there any good tutorials to add bus routes?


Have you read http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Buses , 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport#Buses and 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport 
(which I think should be featured more officially, not in a proposed 
features page)?


The way I do it (and in no way am I saying it is the only way or the 
correct way to do it, but it seems to hold up fine) is make one relation 
for each seperate destination (usually two: a->b and b->a, sometimes 4: 
a->c->b, a->d->b, b->c->a and b->d->a) and group those relations in a 
master relation. The master relations get grouped in a (master-master) 
relation that holds all buslines for one concession.


Each bus relation has all the ways the bus traverses, and if it 
doublebacks on itself somewhere, I add the way twice. JOSM will 
highlight those ways in red in the relation editor, is that the warning 
you describe?
Then add all the stops in correct order with role "stop". If you order 
the ways and nodes in the relation editor, JOSM will put the stops 
first.
I believe officially you should only add nodes with 
"public_transport=stop_position", but in absence of those I also add 
"highway=bus_stop" (or even tag those with 
"public_transport=stop_position" which is not entirely correct).


As an example, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/398909

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus routes questions

[Jochen Topf]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 08:50:30PM +0200, Ondrej Novy wrote:
 i think it's time to cleanup bus routes concept
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route#Public_Transportation
 
 * forward/backward_stop can't work if you map bus_stop as standalone waypoint
 * stop_number is useless because we have ordered relations
 * if bus goes from place A throw B to place C, should i create relation only
   in one direction - A, B, C - or - A, B, C, B, A - or should i create two
   (theoretical more) relations for every trace (A, B, C + C, B, A)?
 * what if bus have two routes - one for morning, one for evening - should it
   be two relations, or just one with 'every ways'? Example: A, B, C, D -
   morning, A, C, D - evening.

There is a proposal on the table that solves all these things and much more:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oxomoa/Public_transport_schema

This was the result of a public transport workshop in Germany. People in
Germany have started to tag according to this proposal to see how practical it
is. Also see the public transport views on http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/

Discussions should probably go to the talk-transit list:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus routes questions

[simon]

 On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 08:50:30PM +0200, Ondrej Novy wrote:

 There is a proposal on the table that solves all these things and much
 more:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oxomoa/Public_transport_schema


I like this proposal, it seems to cover most things that I can think off.
I've added to the discussion page for those it doesn't.

Remember when reading this page, that it is dealing with the physical. The
route relation will still handle the routing around network, with specific
directions, time constraints, etc.

I'd still recommend the 'casual/non-rendered/non-processed' tag (ie.
'bus_routes=2,4,5') to help the mapper understand what is there.

Cheers,
Mungewell.


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