Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 27/01/13 15:38, the Old Topo Depot wrote: You may want to cross post to the broader talk list as well, as I have heard rumors of work related to this but have no knowledge regarding status. I read via Gmane, so I could be wrong, but I thought this _was_ the broad talk list for OSM... Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
(Sorry I'm late back to this discussion.) On 27/01/13 11:39, Richard Fairhurst wrote: If you want to make it happen, the best way to do this is to take part in the project to port the current stylesheet to Carto: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto and to make sure that the resulting stylesheet is actually capable of rendering at z19 convincingly. (The current XML one isn't.) I'm happy to cheerfully admit that I'm requesting that this happen without resources to back it up. So I'm not going to get all entitled :-) If z19 happens, count me as someone cheering you on! If not, no criticism. Beyond that, it'll take some investigation into what extra hardware burden z19 will impose. Perhaps you could help by running some tests into that? I'm not sure I have the capability to do that. :-| I'd anticipate a max of 4x the disk space needed by z18, as others have said, but less if we are smart about it and e.g. only render certain latitudes, or densely populated areas, or render on demand. Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
One little step towards zoom 19 : http://tile.openstreetmap.fr:13080/?zoom=19lat=48.87164lon=2.30134layers=0B That's a new, fast server* under test (but hooked to my home DSL line so be patient). * see on wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Servers/Hardware#Dell_R610 2013/2/13 Gervase Markham gerv-gm...@gerv.net: (Sorry I'm late back to this discussion.) On 27/01/13 11:39, Richard Fairhurst wrote: If you want to make it happen, the best way to do this is to take part in the project to port the current stylesheet to Carto: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto and to make sure that the resulting stylesheet is actually capable of rendering at z19 convincingly. (The current XML one isn't.) I'm happy to cheerfully admit that I'm requesting that this happen without resources to back it up. So I'm not going to get all entitled :-) If z19 happens, count me as someone cheering you on! If not, no criticism. Beyond that, it'll take some investigation into what extra hardware burden z19 will impose. Perhaps you could help by running some tests into that? I'm not sure I have the capability to do that. :-| I'd anticipate a max of 4x the disk space needed by z18, as others have said, but less if we are smart about it and e.g. only render certain latitudes, or densely populated areas, or render on demand. Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France Week-end SOTM-FR à Lyon, les 23-24 février prochains: http://openstreetmap.fr/sotmfr2013 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 18/01/13 14:29, Gervase Markham wrote: Who do we need to talk to or where do we need to file a bug to get this request considered officially? Anyone? Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Gervase Markham wrote: Who do we need to talk to or where do we need to file a bug to get this request considered officially? Anyone? If you want to make it happen, the best way to do this is to take part in the project to port the current stylesheet to Carto: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto and to make sure that the resulting stylesheet is actually capable of rendering at z19 convincingly. (The current XML one isn't.) Beyond that, it'll take some investigation into what extra hardware burden z19 will impose. Perhaps you could help by running some tests into that? cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Mapnik-at-zoom-19-tp5744338p5746642.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Gerv, You may want to cross post to the broader talk list as well, as I have heard rumors of work related to this but have no knowledge regarding status. Best On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: Gervase Markham wrote: Who do we need to talk to or where do we need to file a bug to get this request considered officially? Anyone? If you want to make it happen, the best way to do this is to take part in the project to port the current stylesheet to Carto: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto and to make sure that the resulting stylesheet is actually capable of rendering at z19 convincingly. (The current XML one isn't.) Beyond that, it'll take some investigation into what extra hardware burden z19 will impose. Perhaps you could help by running some tests into that? cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Mapnik-at-zoom-19-tp5744338p5746642.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John Novak 585-OLD-TOPOS (585-653-8676) http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnanovak/ OSM ID:oldtopos OSM Heat Map: http://yosmhm.neis-one.org/?oldtopos OSM Edit Stats:http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?oldtopos ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
2013/1/27 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Gervase Markham wrote: Who do we need to talk to or where do we need to file a bug to get this request considered officially? Anyone? If you want to make it happen, the best way to do this is to take part in the project to port the current stylesheet to Carto: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto and to make sure that the resulting stylesheet is actually capable of rendering at z19 convincingly. (The current XML one isn't.) IMHO there is no connection between the port to a different style sheet language and the decision which zoom level gets rendered. The current XML would render sufficiently well when you remove the minscale_zoom=18 filters. If convincingly implies different font-sizes and styles, line widths etc. for the step from 18 to 19, this is something that could be fixed in later iterations. Beyond that, it'll take some investigation into what extra hardware burden z19 will impose. Perhaps you could help by running some tests into that? Space requirements depend mostly on the actual usage (how many of them would be created). I guess it wouldn't make sense to prerender them and rendering on the fly seems to work quite well as there is much less data than even in zoom 18 which already renders fast. On data changes in the area they could be dropped instead of putting them into a dirty queue. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 27/01/2013 16:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: IMHO there is no connection between the port to a different style sheet language and the decision which zoom level gets rendered. The connection is that the current stylesheet is abandonware. If anything is to be fixed then it'll be in the Carto port. Space requirements depend mostly on the actual usage (how many of them would be created). I guess it wouldn't make sense to prerender them I guess is nice for mailing lists, but the sysadmins can't be asked to make decisions based on a guess. Evidence is more helpful. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
2013/1/27 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Space requirements depend mostly on the actual usage (how many of them would be created). I guess it wouldn't make sense to prerender them I guess is nice for mailing lists, but the sysadmins can't be asked to make decisions based on a guess. Evidence is more helpful. in my tests zoom 19 took roughly the same time than the zoom 18 tiles but actual requirements (space and time) will depend mostly on how intensively people will use this feature on osm.org. This is hardly testable or predictable. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
A quick extrapolation re space is to take rendered zl18 tile size, in total, and multiply by 4. If someone can provide the zl18 number ... It seems reasonable to expect zl19 tiles to be of most interest in urban areas with high POI density, as those areas tend to drop display data due to labeling/feature densities. While it is possible that a bot could cause all zl19 tiles to be rendered and consume significant tile cache space, if this has not happened to date on the existing tile server then it will likely not happen with zl19 either. Be aware that code changes may be required to support higher zoom levels as I have a vague, and quite likely outdated, recollection of arrays in mapnik (?) and/or the rendering stack needing expansion. On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/1/27 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Space requirements depend mostly on the actual usage (how many of them would be created). I guess it wouldn't make sense to prerender them I guess is nice for mailing lists, but the sysadmins can't be asked to make decisions based on a guess. Evidence is more helpful. in my tests zoom 19 took roughly the same time than the zoom 18 tiles but actual requirements (space and time) will depend mostly on how intensively people will use this feature on osm.org. This is hardly testable or predictable. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John Novak 585-OLD-TOPOS (585-653-8676) http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnanovak/ OSM ID:oldtopos OSM Heat Map: http://yosmhm.neis-one.org/?oldtopos OSM Edit Stats:http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?oldtopos ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 27-1-2013 17:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: current XML would render sufficiently well when you remove the minscale_zoom=18 filters. If convincingly implies different The minscale_zoom18 essentially translates to 'infinity' in the current stylesheet setup: !ENTITY minscale_zoom18 The difference between z18 and z19, apart from scale considerations, is non-existent. Apart from taking storage requirements into account, you could well switch to z19 today. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: +1, the more you zoom in, the more you wish there were highway areas. No you don't. http://not.textual.ru/zverik/2/3/mapsurfer-areahighway-spb.png Highway areas look ugly, even at zoom 18. Openstreetmap.by also renders those areas: http://openstreetmap.by/?zoom=17lat=59.843607lon=30.32258 This is not a map. It's a poor representation of aerial imagery, bad case of wikimapia. Frederik: I fear that OSM is, asymptotically, a paint-it-yourself aerial image. With 10cm precision. Absolutely. But your precision estimate is optimistic, I'd say 2m. IZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 13/01/13 21:23, Christian Quest wrote: You can see what zoom level 19 looks like with Mapnik/cartocss style on http://layers.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=19lat=48.87206lon=2.30069layers=B That's so much better than 18; all the shops are labelled. Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 15/01/13 04:09, Jaakko Helleranta.com wrote: But I would say in any case that the reality as I see it builds increasing need for very high zoom levels. ... I recently switched to OsmAnd on my Android because it zooms upto level 23 Ah, that might be where I saw higher zoom levels. I use OsmAnd. Who do we need to talk to or where do we need to file a bug to get this request considered officially? Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote: You can see what zoom level 19 looks like with Mapnik/cartocss style on http://layers.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=19lat=48.87206lon=2.30069layers=B That looks excellent; I'm sure this would be useful on the main map. __John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
It could be improved for example by making use of width=* or lanes=* to adapt the highway widths. I think its the main thing that looks strange on the zoom 19 rendering. 2013/1/18 John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote: You can see what zoom level 19 looks like with Mapnik/cartocss style on http://layers.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=19lat=48.87206lon=2.30069layers=B That looks excellent; I'm sure this would be useful on the main map. __John -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquesthttp://openstreetmap.fr/u/christian-quest ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
It does look strange when the Mapnik rendering doesn't seem to take width into account when rendering the data. Especially when we've drawn landuse areas around it (using fly-over imagery) and there's empty space between their boundaries and the path. - Svavar Kjarrval On 18/01/13 14:42, Christian Quest wrote: It could be improved for example by making use of width=* or lanes=* to adapt the highway widths. I think its the main thing that looks strange on the zoom 19 rendering. 2013/1/18 John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com mailto:jcg.stu...@gmail.com On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr mailto:cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote: You can see what zoom level 19 looks like with Mapnik/cartocss style on http://layers.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=19lat=48.87206lon=2.30069layers=B That looks excellent; I'm sure this would be useful on the main map. __John -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest http://openstreetmap.fr/u/christian-quest ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
2013/1/18 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is It does look strange when the Mapnik rendering doesn't seem to take width into account when rendering the data. Especially when we've drawn landuse areas around it (using fly-over imagery) and there's empty space between their boundaries and the path. We'll have to start drawing roads as areas at some point. That point is probably not close, and layers would probably help with the huge amount of vectors we are going to get. But I think it has to happen. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
2013/1/18 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: 2013/1/18 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is It does look strange when the Mapnik rendering doesn't seem to take width into account when rendering the data. Especially when we've drawn landuse areas around it (using fly-over imagery) and there's empty space between their boundaries and the path. We'll have to start drawing roads as areas at some point. That point is probably not close, and layers would probably help with the huge amount of vectors we are going to get. But I think it has to happen. +1, the more you zoom in, the more you wish there were highway areas. Actually there is nothing preventing us from mapping them (the only risk might be that someone deletes the highway-center line because he thinks that it is superfluous like it sometimes happens with rivers which also have a mapped riverbank). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Hi, On 18.01.2013 20:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: We'll have to start drawing roads as areas at some point. That point is probably not close, and layers would probably help with the huge amount of vectors we are going to get. But I think it has to happen. +1, the more you zoom in, the more you wish there were highway areas. I fear that OSM is, asymptotically, a paint-it-yourself aerial image. With 10cm precision. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 18/01/2013 14:29, Gervase Markham wrote: That's so much better than 18; all the shops are labelled. Gerv +1 This is the primary reason mapnik needs a higher zoom level. More detailed mapping like shops is on the the increase at z18 the labelling of any object seems a bit random to whether it displays or not. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Big hand to OSM.fr for offering the z19! I've asked about this need before and will now just +1 the need for this also at osm.org. I would also welcome z20 -- perhaps with some request base limits (requested urban areas -- possibility to handle in more or less similar fashion as Mike does the http://metro.teczno.com/ extracts through Git? ... Perhaps ideally with some calculation on density of POI(?)-type objects? But I would say in any case that the reality as I see it builds increasing need for very high zoom levels. ... I recently switched to OsmAnd on my Android because it zooms upto level 23 -- and I now use z20 and z21 on a regular basis. ... E.g. these objects http://layers.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=19lat=18.51517lon=-72.28894layers=Bshow names of all POIs only at z22. .. And this is not even very densely mapped! .. Perhaps this is a difference between The North and The South? Cheers from Haiti, -Jaakko http://osm.org/user/jaakkoh -- jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +509-37-269154 * http://go.hel.cc/about.me On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.frwrote: You can see what zoom level 19 looks like with Mapnik/cartocss style on http://layers.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=19lat=48.87206lon=2.30069layers=B 2013/1/13 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org Hi, On 13.01.2013 21:23, Gervase Markham wrote: Did we ever do z=19? To my knowledge, no. Did we stop because it's a load more disk space, or something like that? If not, could we consider it? Given that very few areas are going to be even looked at at z19 I suspect the additional disk space used would not amount to much. But the style sheet we're currently using doesn't lend itself well to extension beyond z18, it would require some tweaking. Nothing big though. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquesthttp://openstreetmap.fr/u/christian-quest ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.comwrote: If mappers in Europe and North America think that z18 doesn't show enough detail, then imagine what it must be like for mappers who are located nearer to the equator. Because of the Mercator projection we use, higher latitudes have a larger scale than places near the equator. Interesting. Didn't come to think of the scale but referred to the North / South difference meaning that in Germany/Finland/USA/etc there usually is at least 10m between two POIs where as in Haiti and a huge number of other counties in the South there isn't necessarily even 5. ... The scale issue makes it even more obvious that especially in the South there is a clear need for higher zoom levels. -Jaakko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
On 13-01-14 0:10, Kai Krueger wrote: Of cause that would put extra pressure on the renderer, but during normal operations (i.e. if it is not e.g. rerendering everything) it seems to still have a fair amount of capacity left. I agree that z20 and more would be very helpful on occasions - and that rendering on request would be sufficient. Some mild caching should apply when walking around, maybe even using some preemptive computation. But I see not need for full rendering of towns or areas. Also the tile throttling mechanisms seem to work sufficiently well to prevent any crazy people from e.g. trying to download all of Europe at z19. Rendering might be slowed down artificially for high volume requests from the same ip. - Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Maperitive will give you even greater zoom levels off a local .osm map file. Cheerio John On 13 January 2013 15:23, Gervase Markham gerv-gm...@gerv.net wrote: My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I'm sure it was once possible to zoom in 1 more level than it is now, on the slippy map on openstreetmap.org. This was useful because often what is simply an icon at z=18 will turn into an icon plus a business name at z=19, particularly when there are many businesses nearby. At the moment, if a business has not won the placement lottery such that their icon happens to be far enough from others that the name shows up, one has to edit the map and examine the node to get this info, which is rather a hassle (and not easy on a mobile phone!). Did we ever do z=19? Did we stop because it's a load more disk space, or something like that? If not, could we consider it? Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Hi, On 13.01.2013 21:23, Gervase Markham wrote: Did we ever do z=19? To my knowledge, no. Did we stop because it's a load more disk space, or something like that? If not, could we consider it? Given that very few areas are going to be even looked at at z19 I suspect the additional disk space used would not amount to much. But the style sheet we're currently using doesn't lend itself well to extension beyond z18, it would require some tweaking. Nothing big though. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik at zoom=19
Frederik Ramm wrote Hi, On 13.01.2013 21:23, Gervase Markham wrote: Did we ever do z=19? To my knowledge, no. I am also reasonably sure z19 never existed. Osmarender only used to go to Z17 and so mapnik had one zoom level more than osmarender, but neither went further than z18. Frederik Ramm wrote Did we stop because it's a load more disk space, or something like that? If not, could we consider it? Given that very few areas are going to be even looked at at z19 I suspect the additional disk space used would not amount to much. Over time, the usage would creep up, but one could be fairly aggressive on deleting cached files for z19. Z19 tiles are most of the time reasonably easy to handle with rendering on the fly so a higher cache miss ratio would matter less. Of cause that would put extra pressure on the renderer, but during normal operations (i.e. if it is not e.g. rerendering everything) it seems to still have a fair amount of capacity left. Also the tile throttling mechanisms seem to work sufficiently well to prevent any crazy people from e.g. trying to download all of Europe at z19. So my guess would be that the current server has the resources to deal with z19 although it would cut into spare capacity for handling future growth. Frederik Ramm wrote But the style sheet we're currently using doesn't lend itself well to extension beyond z18, it would require some tweaking. Nothing big though. Imho, the current style sheet, if not perfect, at least works for z19 so I think one could just use it to begin with and then improve it through the normal stylesheet improvemet process. There are by now enough densely mapped areas, where a z19 level offers a real advantage. At z18 too much information gets dropped in the decluttering process. At the moment, when I want to e.g. check if something is already mapped in a densely mapped area, I need to switch into Potlatch where I can zoom to z19 (and beyond). However, if everyone does that, I suspect that would use up much more resources than offering a z19 rendered map. Therefore imho, offering z19 would be possible and a net benefit to OSM, but that is obviously for the server admin team to decide. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Mapnik-at-zoom-19-tp5744338p5744364.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
