Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 4:26 AM, Andreas Goss wrote: > But that concept is not really reality. There a dozen for German pages which > are completely different from the English one, but both cover that topic in > a way that is usefull for people who get to that page. > > The main advantage I see with keeping everything in one Wiki is that it is a > lot easier to find tagging or translation mistakes. Having one single wiki has some advantages: - it's easier to maintain and small local communities have an immediate access to localized pages - it's enforcing the global community to work together and identify what is working globally and what can be different locally. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
Hi, the initial concern was about a page on the wiki in french that was older than the english one, and with significant differences in a list of tags (still landuse=basin rather than the "new" natural=water), the change on the english page was made more than 1 year ago ! the "translate" extension can help to detect such kind of problem, even if it is perhaps not the best ... I think that what we really need is a tool to "link" parts a translated page to the same part of the original page, so that when someone make changes on the original page a message is displayed on the translated page to alert on the possible de-synchronization of the content ... Sylvain 2014-07-25 5:35 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss : > If there is country specific information about a tag then I would like >> to be aware of it, as it could be useful for other countries/languages >> too. >> > > And if I open a DE :feature I would like to be presentet with the > information relevant to my country in the first place. > > If I open DE:bicycle_something then I don't want to be presented with > various signs that are used in the US, South Africa, Japan or Mexico. I > want to see the sign that I saw on the ground in Germany and then how to > tag it. > > So I want to see these signs: > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cycling_signs_in_Germany > > And not these: > http://www.trafficsign.us/bikesign.html > > If you want country relevant information on every translation then you do > have to look though a dozen different signs 99.99% of the people reading > that page are never goingto use. And those are sign that are easy to spot. > Now make that text... > > That could be as simple as copying it to the English language page >> (marking it as requiring translation) or if it's longer providing a link on >> the English language page. >> > > You are still going to present me with a lot of information that is not > usefull for my country. And it will get worse once you try to translate > non-English pages back. From German to Englisch you are then going to get > funny stuff like [PLEASE DON'T CONFUSE evangelical with evangelical!!!] > > __ > openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 > wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
If there is country specific information about a tag then I would like to be aware of it, as it could be useful for other countries/languages too. And if I open a DE:feature I would like to be presentet with the information relevant to my country in the first place. If I open DE:bicycle_something then I don't want to be presented with various signs that are used in the US, South Africa, Japan or Mexico. I want to see the sign that I saw on the ground in Germany and then how to tag it. So I want to see these signs: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cycling_signs_in_Germany And not these: http://www.trafficsign.us/bikesign.html If you want country relevant information on every translation then you do have to look though a dozen different signs 99.99% of the people reading that page are never goingto use. And those are sign that are easy to spot. Now make that text... That could be as simple as copying it to the English language page (marking it as requiring translation) or if it's longer providing a link on the English language page. You are still going to present me with a lot of information that is not usefull for my country. And it will get worse once you try to translate non-English pages back. From German to Englisch you are then going to get funny stuff like [PLEASE DON'T CONFUSE evangelical with evangelical!!!] __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
> Using the same Wiki with language namespacing implements the concept of > very close translations - the structure is the same for everyone, and > the translator is just expected to fill in the blanks. I don't believe > that this will lead to high-quality documentation; I believe this will > be at best a little better than automatic translation. But that concept is not really reality. There a dozen for German pages which are completely different from the English one, but both cover that topic in a way that is usefull for people who get to that page. The main advantage I see with keeping everything in one Wiki is that it is a lot easier to find tagging or translation mistakes. Often when I am going to translate an article, I try to improve it, but because the english article is considered the "main" one, I end up having to improve the english article as well. This can be a big productivity killer. Completely agree with you. As pointed out in the other mail the issue is not just translation, but documentation in the first place. I just tried to translate all the craft= pages, but bascially I have to fix the template on the English page first every time. For vending= which I did before I bacially had to create every single page. I have to say that it wasn't intuitive to understand that, linking to other wiki page from a page in portuguese will link to an english page unless I stick a "Pt:" prefix before it. On the one hand that's bad on the other hand it's also an advantage, because I bet most of the time the portuguese page does not exist, so forcing a "create page" would be worse. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
+1 Language is not the same thing as country. There could well be French-speaking people mapping in England, English in Spain, Spanish in Egypt, Arabic-speakers in Turkey, Turks in Germany, etc. Steve On 25/07/2014 00:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: In my opinion we should try to keep the different language pages as similar as possible - that is, they should aim to be just translations of one another. My reason behind this is that OpenStreetMap is a community and data project. We need to work together and use common tagging so that developers can build tools based on OSM data. We should avoid an OpenStreetMap for people who can speak English, one for those that can speak French, etc... If there is country specific information about a tag then I would like to be aware of it, as it could be useful for other countries/languages too. That could be as simple as copying it to the English[1] language page (marking it as requiring translation) or if it's longer providing a link on the English language page. Also worth noting that a lot of the translations haven't stayed up to date. This works both ways - English page updated, translations not updated, or a non-English page updated and not copied back to the English page (in any language). I'd encourage people to copy between the pages even if they just mark the text as needing translating. Regards, Rob [1] You could also copy it to other language pages, but at a bare minimum the English page as this is considered the "Main" page/OSM's default language. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
On 25.07.2014 01:04, Rob Nickerson wrote: > In my opinion we should try to keep the different language pages as > similar as possible - that is, they should aim to be just translations > of one another. My reason behind this is that OpenStreetMap is a > community and data project. We need to work together and use common > tagging so that developers can build tools based on OSM data. We should > avoid an OpenStreetMap for people who can speak English, one for those > that can speak French, etc... I agree with that. We are a global project and we expect our software to work globally, so our documentation needs to be consistent across multiple languages. Of course there has always been content intended for a local audience, or pages that describe local conventions and so on. But I don't see why that should prevent us from also having content that applies globally. Content related to local topics should also not be confused with languages. Why should the page about Road signs in Germany not also be available in English, for example? > Also worth noting that a lot of the translations haven't stayed up to > date. This works both ways - English page updated, translations not > updated, or a non-English page updated and not copied back to the > English page (in any language). I've also noticed this everyday problem, and I believe the Translate extension could help with those cases. So I'm in favour to give it a try. Let's just install it, try it on a few pages, and see how well it works. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
In my opinion we should try to keep the different language pages as similar as possible - that is, they should aim to be just translations of one another. My reason behind this is that OpenStreetMap is a community and data project. We need to work together and use common tagging so that developers can build tools based on OSM data. We should avoid an OpenStreetMap for people who can speak English, one for those that can speak French, etc... If there is country specific information about a tag then I would like to be aware of it, as it could be useful for other countries/languages too. That could be as simple as copying it to the English[1] language page (marking it as requiring translation) or if it's longer providing a link on the English language page. Also worth noting that a lot of the translations haven't stayed up to date. This works both ways - English page updated, translations not updated, or a non-English page updated and not copied back to the English page (in any language). I'd encourage people to copy between the pages even if they just mark the text as needing translating. Regards, Rob [1] You could also copy it to other language pages, but at a bare minimum the English page as this is considered the "Main" page/OSM's default language. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
As a somewhat regular translator, I would like to say something.
My gut feeling is that we shouldn't separate the wiki into different ones,
but I can say there are some considerable issues on the model we have right
now.
Often when I am going to translate an article, I try to improve it, but
because the english article is considered the "main" one, I end up having
to improve the english article as well. This can be a big productivity
killer.
At the very least, when the page is about a key specific to my country, I
can just stick a {{Translate from Portuguese}} template on the english page.
I also take issue with the namespacing as it is.
The page for the key highway=* is "Key:highway" in english, but it is
"Pt:Key:highway" in portuguese.
Just imagine what a portuguese speaker thinks when he sees something like
that and doesn't know what it means.
By reading the page's content, he can understand what "highway" means,
because the generous translators explained, but what about "Pt:Key" ?
I know what it means, that's just an example.
Things like "Talk:" and "User:" prefix can be uncomfortable to some users
too.
I have to say that it wasn't intuitive to understand that, linking to other
wiki page from a page in portuguese will link to an english page unless I
stick a "Pt:" prefix before it.
These are some of the issues I can remember right now.
2014-07-24 18:50 GMT-03:00 Frederik Ramm :
> Hi,
>
> On 07/24/2014 11:05 PM, François Lacombe wrote:
> > According to you, we'd better split OSM in several projects, one for
> > each country and data consumers will do the rest.
>
> This would be interesting but it is not what I said. I said, let's have
> different Wikis for different languages.
>
> It is simply a more holistic approach to the concept of "translation". I
> don't believe in the kind of page-by-page, sentence-by-sentence, even
> word-by-word translation that some people seem to advocate. If we're
> after that, just dump all non-English content and use Google translate.
>
> If we want high-quality documentation for users of different languages,
> which will also often be people with wildly different cultural
> backgrounds, then that has to be written from scratch - perhaps
> "informed" by material in other languages but likely not "translated".
>
> Using the same Wiki with language namespacing implements the concept of
> very close translations - the structure is the same for everyone, and
> the translator is just expected to fill in the blanks. I don't believe
> that this will lead to high-quality documentation; I believe this will
> be at best a little better than automatic translation.
>
> I think that the evolution of the project is replayed in different
> countries at different times. Speaking simplistically, the community in
> a country where OSM is just taking off might be better off with the kind
> of documentation available to OSM in France when the project was at the
> same state, rather than the sophisticated detail that is available today.
>
> If I am in a country where we have barely mapped the major road network,
> am I really interested in translations of turn lane relations and TMC
> information, or will such detail perhaps discourage me?
>
> You seem to be mainly equating the Wiki with a catalogue of tags but I
> think it is much more, and its relevance as a tag catalogue is shrinking
> with editor presets becoming ever more complex.
>
> Of course editor presets would also have to be localised (and not only
> translated)... ;)
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
Hi, On 07/24/2014 11:05 PM, François Lacombe wrote: > According to you, we'd better split OSM in several projects, one for > each country and data consumers will do the rest. This would be interesting but it is not what I said. I said, let's have different Wikis for different languages. It is simply a more holistic approach to the concept of "translation". I don't believe in the kind of page-by-page, sentence-by-sentence, even word-by-word translation that some people seem to advocate. If we're after that, just dump all non-English content and use Google translate. If we want high-quality documentation for users of different languages, which will also often be people with wildly different cultural backgrounds, then that has to be written from scratch - perhaps "informed" by material in other languages but likely not "translated". Using the same Wiki with language namespacing implements the concept of very close translations - the structure is the same for everyone, and the translator is just expected to fill in the blanks. I don't believe that this will lead to high-quality documentation; I believe this will be at best a little better than automatic translation. I think that the evolution of the project is replayed in different countries at different times. Speaking simplistically, the community in a country where OSM is just taking off might be better off with the kind of documentation available to OSM in France when the project was at the same state, rather than the sophisticated detail that is available today. If I am in a country where we have barely mapped the major road network, am I really interested in translations of turn lane relations and TMC information, or will such detail perhaps discourage me? You seem to be mainly equating the Wiki with a catalogue of tags but I think it is much more, and its relevance as a tag catalogue is shrinking with editor presets becoming ever more complex. Of course editor presets would also have to be localised (and not only translated)... ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
2014-07-24 22:47 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm : > I wonder if it might be better to do what Wikipedia have done - instead > of having one Wiki where the same articles exist in different languages > (and often with wildly different content), have a Wiki for every > language where the community using that language can build their own OSM > reference (with Interwiki links where useful). > Not really the kindest idea for those who try to bring reusable tags worldwide ;) I'm ok to say all things aren't the same in each country. That's why wiki and data should adapt in each translation/location. According to you, we'd better split OSM in several projects, one for each country and data consumers will do the rest. That's not the same deal. In my mind, OSM can't be break apart of its data reference if we want consumers find our data useful. If you split the reference, you should split the whole project. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
Hi, On 07/24/2014 08:22 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: > Also this seems geared towards 1:1 translations, which in the > OpenStreetMap Wiki often isn't the reality, because some things are > different from country to country. Or for example usefull combinations > or "see also" might be different. Fully agree. I wonder if it might be better to do what Wikipedia have done - instead of having one Wiki where the same articles exist in different languages (and often with wildly different content), have a Wiki for every language where the community using that language can build their own OSM reference (with Interwiki links where useful). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
Hi Andreas, I agree with you about the automatic translation tool and that wasn't my point. Contributors should always translate documents by themselves without using any automatic tool. Nevertheless, some features of the extension would bring us some comfort when dealing with translation topic. I like the "percentage of translation for each language" indicator and the capability to know when the English page is more accurate/up to date than other ones. May some alternative software can do the same job ? Additionally to the visual editor (which is a really good tool too), it can be a strong adding to the OSM wiki, don't you ? Cheers. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com 2014-07-24 21:11 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss : > extension moved from requiring mediawiki 1.23 to requiring mediawiki 1.24 >> which is still in development. >> > > Can't you just use the old version that worked with 1.23? > > __ > openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 > wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
extension moved from requiring mediawiki 1.23 to requiring mediawiki 1.24 which is still in development. Can't you just use the old version that worked with 1.23? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
>What we really need is people actually editing the Wiki in the first >place and in my opinion the best way to get people to do so would be a >better editor: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor > There's an issue for this on trac [1] but the main problem is that the extension moved from requiring mediawiki 1.23 to requiring mediawiki 1.24 which is still in development. [1] https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4920 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki translate extension
As for improving translation tasks on OSM wiki, how would you feel about the Mediawiki Translate extension ? I'm against any kind of automatic translation tool, which will just cause more errors. When I look up a word I'm usually at least presented with more than one translation. Also this seems geared towards 1:1 translations, which in the OpenStreetMap Wiki often isn't the reality, because some things are different from country to country. Or for example usefull combinations or "see also" might be different. Some pages might even be very country specific and a short summary for other languages might be enough as long as there is a English documentation. Also warnings like "Do not confuse with xyz" might only make sense in one language. What we really need is people actually editing the Wiki in the first place and in my opinion the best way to get people to do so would be a better editor: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
