Re: [Talk-GB] British Waterways

[Malcolm Herring via Talk-GB]

On 07/12/2020 12:52, SK53 wrote:

but other operators too


Also note that British Waterways Marinas Ltd has now become Aquavistq 
Waterside Ltd



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Re: [Talk-GB] Hull road renamed after rugby league star - BBC News

[Malcolm Herring]

On 27/01/2018 13:21, Andy Mabbett wrote:

Cool, but my question was "Does anyone have the coordinates, or the ID
of the way, please?"


Changeset: 55773434


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Re: [Talk-GB] Use of Drones

[Malcolm Herring]

On 18/09/2017 11:03, Brian Prangle wrote:

Does anyone have any experience of using drones?


I once used a drone to map an inaccessible island in the Humber. The 
drone's camera can be pointed directly downwards, so I flew it around 
the island, keeping the high water mark in the centre of the frame. I 
then used the stored GPS track to update the map.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Naming of places

[Malcolm Herring]

On 17/08/2017 16:25, Chris Hill wrote:

I'd like to replace the name=tag with Hull.


+1


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[OSM-talk] Beware clickbait!

[Malcolm Herring]

This topic seems to be infested with it.


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Re: [Talk-GB] GB Coastline - PGS vs OS

[Malcolm Herring]

On 12/12/2016 09:42, Stuart Reynolds wrote:

sand is shown all the way out to the end of the pier


A practical solution to tidal beach areas is to map them as two areas 
with a common bound, that being the MHW nominal coastline. The areas 
above MHW can optionally carry the tag "tidal=no", but the areas below 
MHW should carry the tag "tidal=yes" and extend down to MLW(or MLWS or 
LAT). This is important for coastal walkers, who need to know what parts 
of an inviting beach may not be there on their return!



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Re: [Talk-GB] Purton Hulks

[Malcolm Herring]

On 02/06/2016 10:10, Jez Nicholson wrote:

I'm guessing that the Malcolm H. responding here is the Malcolmh OSM
User involved with openseamapif so, could you tell us whether
seamark tags are specifically for known/acknowledged navigation objects
or whether anything visible from the sea can be a seamark?


I am he! A seamark is any object of navigational importance. Onshore 
wrecks, such as the Purton Hulks, do not fall into this category as they 
are not a hazard to navigation. I suggest that these objects be tagged 
as historical wrecks.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Purton Hulks

[Malcolm Herring]

On 01/06/2016 17:37, Brian Prangle wrote:

If you go to OSM's sister project openseamap you'll find they have a tag
for hulk


Those tags are not suitable for the objects described in the OP. All the 
categories of seamark:type=hulk are floating objects, whereas the Purton 
Hulks are beached & non-floatable.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Piers vs Docks

[Malcolm Herring]

On 11/03/2016 17:15, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

By the way, we recently had a discussion on tagging@osm
 about quay, pier etc. :


That discussion was about the various mooring structures. The OP refers 
to the US-en usage of the word "dock", which is applied to any mooring 
structure (including pontoons). The international (IHO) meaning of 
"dock" refers to the area of water between two or more such structures, 
not the structures themselves.



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[OSM-talk] License files

[Malcolm Herring]

What is the preferred filename and wording of a license file to be 
distributed with files that have been derived from OSM data? The 
copyright page on the Wiki seems to only refer to tiles, not any other 
form of derived data.



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Re: [OSM-talk] waterway - routable network and reservoirs/lakes

[Malcolm Herring]

On 27/07/2015 20:23, Jochen Topf wrote:

This is more about the water flow than about being navigable by a ship.


Indeed. Given that the waterway tagging rules cited in the OP applies 
equally to streams, ditches  drains, then the routability clearly does 
not imply navigability, merely continuity of the watercourse, 
obstructions such as weirs, sluices, locks, etc not withstanding.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging concert / music hall

[Malcolm Herring]

Some concert halls:

Albert Hall, London: attraction=music_venue
Concertgebouw, Amsterdam: amenity=theatre
Gewandhaus, Leipzig: theatre:genre=philharmonic
Musikverein, Vienna: amenity=concert_hall
Philharmonie, Berlin: amenity=theatre
Symphony Hall, Birmingham: building=concert_hall

Clearly a consensus - NOT!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Broken coastline

[Malcolm Herring]

On 11/05/2015 18:01, pmailkeey . wrote:

Where should the coastline be ? HWM, LWM or MW. What about islands that
only appear at low tide !



The most common definition is mean high water - spring tides (MHWS)


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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Malcolm Herring]

On 21/04/2015 18:08, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

Are what's presently tagged elsan_point /both/ walk up toilets
/and/ CDP chemical holding tank emptying points?
And do they welcome waste originating from Elsan-based motorhomes as
well as canal boats?



This is going to vary from point to point. On-the-ground surveys will be 
required.



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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Malcolm Herring]

On 22/04/2015 08:04, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more of:

   1) Walk up toilet
   2) Cassette dump for boats
   3) Cassette dump for motorhomes
   4) Pump out


The only safe assumption is (2)



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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Malcolm Herring]

On 21/04/2015 08:01, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

I'm seeking additional local input on this tagging.


Elsan is simply a trade name for a chemical toilet (likewise 
Portapotti). So your cassette tagging covers these use cases.



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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Malcolm Herring]

On 21/04/2015 10:01, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

In the UK is the Elsan trade name used for both the mobile toilet and
the fixed spot to empty it?
It appears the intent of the elsan_point tag in the UK was the later (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tELRMqFZKM ).


Yes. This dates from the days when Elsan had the market to themselves in 
UK, so elsan became the generic term for any chemical toilet (This also 
happened with vacuum cleaners  Hoover - we still refer to any vacuum 
cleaner as ‘a hoover’). So the word elsan made its way onto the signage 
for chemical toilet emptying points.



---
Note the comparable USA term porta-potty refers to a portable chemical
toilet with no separate cassette (usually dragged by trailer to events,
construction
activity, or in camping areas without sewer access).



Note the spelling: “Porta Potti” is a trade name of the Thetford 
Corporation and refers their chemical toilet products.





On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Paul Sladen
o...@paul.sladen.org
mailto:o...@paul.sladen.org wrote:
  Most canal-side/marina-side are accessed-protected using a 'BWB' key;

There also seems to be a card:
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/navigating-the-waterways/services-for-boats/how-to-buy-your-pump-out-card

I'm not sure which OSM mapped elsan_points are part of the CRT key
system, but the network tag was designed for use by someone who does.



Waterside facilities provided by CRT (previously known as British 
Waterways Board - BWB) are accessed by use of a key issued to all 
waterway license holders. Chemical toilet emptying points are usually 
within these facilities. Pump-out stations, on the other hand, are 
necessarily outside  usage is controlled by pre-paid charge cards which 
activate the pump.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Taginfo challenge

[Malcolm Herring]

On 16/03/2015 00:16, Rob Nickerson wrote:

Not necessarily as fixing the tag could also result in the data being
rendered therefore making it more visible for people to come in and fix
(if a local community of OSMers exists).


Other non-destructive actions might me to include key capitalisations in 
JOSM's validity warnings before uploading and/or a bot that added 
discussion comments to the changeset that created the key.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Taginfo challenge

[Malcolm Herring]

I found several cases of a key being duplicated with various 
capitalisations: instead of this they are mostly like This or THIS.


Could somebody make a bot to clean these?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Mechanically Cleaning Up FIXME Tags

[Malcolm Herring]

On 25/02/2015 07:01, Frederik Ramm wrote:

I think in many cases the proper action to perform on an object with
a FIXME tag that has a low chance of ever getting addressed is deletion.


+1

Though just as blind mechanical imports should not be done, so blind 
mechanical deletes should also not be done. There are some 11000 
seamark:fixme=please_fix_position objects that are from just such an 
import that was done over 4 years ago. I have been slowly working my way 
through these and have found that there are many that have been moved, 
but the fixme tag has not been removed. Here I remove the tag. On the 
others I check to see if there is any recent active editing of these 
objects nearby - if so, I leave them untouched. Only in areas where no 
such activity is evident, do I perform a mass delete.


If encouraged by the community, I will speed up this process, though at 
a measured pace so as to not overload the seamark renderer.



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[OSM-talk] API down

[Malcolm Herring]

Are the powers-that-be aware that the API is down?


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Re: [OSM-talk] API down

[Malcolm Herring]

On 02/02/2015 09:01, Tom Hughes wrote:

We're aware that it was down, and that it was fixed two hours ago.


OK, so next question: Why has planet replication stopped? Last minutely 
update was at 01:15.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Quay

[Malcolm Herring]

On 26/01/2015 19:23, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

man_made=quay anyone ?


To quote the IHO dictionary:

quay. A WHARF approximately parallel to the SHORELINE and accommodating 
ships on one side only, the other side
being attached to the SHORE. It is usually of solid construction, as 
contrasted with the open pile construction usually

used for PIERS.

So yes, your reasoning is correct  that section of the coastline that 
forms the quay could indeed be tagged man_made=quay.


Might it be a good idea to raise this issue in the tagging list?


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Re: [Talk-GB] Google Maps: the city of Avon

[Malcolm Herring]

On 07/12/2014 12:17, Nick Whitelegg wrote:

Do Google know something we don't?




It also appears on Yahoo maps and Apple maps, in both cases as small 
place only visible at high zooms.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Google Maps: the city of Avon

[Malcolm Herring]

On 07/12/2014 12:39, Malcolm Herring wrote:

It also appears on Yahoo maps and Apple maps, in both cases as small
place only visible at high zooms.



... and on our map! http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/413600880



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Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Fix waterway direction

[Malcolm Herring]

On 28/08/2014 19:49, Peter Barth wrote:

A more detailed description can also be found on my user diary here:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Peda/diary/23632


Your statement that canals may flow uphill is incorrect. Where canals 
pass over a summit, the water supply is fed into the topmost pound and 
then flows in both directions (i.e. downhill) from that feed. Therefore 
the water flow should always match a topological analysis. In the case 
of contour canals, no actual water flow may take place, therefore the 
direction of the way would be arbitrary.


Also, for navigational reasons, canal administrations [in Europe 
(CEVNI)] have to define a left  right bank to determine the colours of 
buoys  nomenclature of signage. These may conflict with the actual 
water flow, since the left/right choice is arbitrary. Likewise the 
direction of the way.



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[OSM-talk] Whatever became of xybot?

[Malcolm Herring]

It used to perform the valuable service of removing leading and trailing 
spaces in tags. No longer, it appears.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Life Ring - British English

[Malcolm Herring]

On 16/06/2014 10:30, Richard Mann wrote:

en-gb is probably lifebuoy



Also lifebelt is commonly used.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Life Ring - British English

[Malcolm Herring]

On 16/06/2014 10:30, Richard Mann wrote:

en-gb is probably lifebuoy


Also lifebelt is commonly used.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Taginfo Updates

[Malcolm Herring]

The Values/Combinations/Map/... links do not do anything in my browser 
(Firefox 29)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Taginfo Updates

[Malcolm Herring]

On 19 May 2014, at 09:10, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote:

 You probably just have an old Javascript file cached or so. Try Shift-Reload 
 in
 the Browser.

That hit the spot. Thanks!
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Re: [OSM-talk] man_made=quay ?

[Malcolm Herring]

On 13/05/2014 20:57, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

there are only 70 man_made=quay


There are also 106 instances of man_made=wharf. The IHO treat quay and 
wharf as synonyms.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Overpass or XAPI API servers for 60, 000 node queries?

[Malcolm Herring]

I ran your query on my server and it completed in 90 seconds, even 
though another big query was already running. True, I do use an SSD for 
the database, so it is very fast. However, it proved that there is 
nothing in your query that gives Overpass indigestion.


The public servers do run a fairness algorithm to prevent big queries 
from shutting out others. You might try reducing your timeout value as 
asking for such a long time will likely get the request bounced.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Phone numbers in little England

[Malcolm Herring]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_the_United_Kingdom:


For dialling the United Kingdom from overseas, Ofcom and ITU-T 
recommendation E.123 states that numbers be written in the form:


Number  Location

+44 20  London
+44 29  Cardiff
+44 113 xxx Leeds
+44 116 xxx Leicester
+44 131 xxx Edinburgh
+44 151 xxx Liverpool
+44 1382  xxDundee
+44 1386  xxEvesham
+44 1865  xxOxford
+44 1792  xxSwansea
+44 1204   xBolton
+44 15396  xSedbergh
+44 16977   Brampton


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Re: [Talk-GB] Tidying up some shop tags

[Malcolm Herring]

On 05/05/2013 14:25, sk53.osm wrote:

I propose to tidy up some shop=* tag values.


Synonyms fine but not specific products/services to generic ones as this 
deletes useful information.


e.g:
Shops that do key cutting are rarely locksmiths.
sandwich shops are a subset of fast food shops, as are fish  chip 
shops. That is important when you are looking for a sandwich rather than 
a burger.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Missing place=city nodes: Manchester, Leeds

[Malcolm Herring]

On 28/04/2013 09:49, Nick Whitelegg wrote:

don't know Leeds well enough to know what might be thought of as the centre.


Leeds Town Hall would the most suitable.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Mass edits of landuse /natural tags

[Malcolm Herring]

On 26/04/2013 00:32, Roy Jamison wrote:

Doesn't happen in a democratic society, which OSM embodies.



Actually, OSM is more akin to an anarchic society - there is no 
government to enforce laws, instead we rely on all citizens to 
self-police. This requires a much higher level of personal 
responsibility. Everything we do is in the public space, so we must 
always take care to behave according customary standards. If in doubt, 
first raise the issue at the parish pump!


For global editing, the pump is located in the tagging mailing list.


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Re: [OSM-talk] additional layers on osm.org

[Malcolm Herring]

On 21/02/2013 15:05, Jason Remillard wrote:

- Boating/Water recreation layer


The water sports layer that is currently in OpenSeaMap could use a wider 
audience. This covers all sport=... features that are in-water as well 
as the whitewater features. The current location is somewhat obscure 
and inclusion as a layer in the OpenStreetMap main map would be a much 
better place for it.


To view it, go to http://map.openseamap.org/map/ and from the View 
drop-down de-select everything except Sport. Then browse to an area 
where mapped water sports are known to exist.



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Re: [OSM-talk] additional layers on osm.org

[Malcolm Herring]

PS: See 
http://map.openseamap.org/map/?zoom=14lat=54.42942lon=10.2249layers=BFFTFFF0FF



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Re: [Talk-GB] Fowey estuary coastline problem

[Malcolm Herring]

On 30/01/2013 08:00, Jason Woollacott wrote:

Does anybody know if a new coastline will be generated soon?  as this
should address the problem.
There is often a very a long time lag for coastline re-rendering, 
sometimes several weeks.


Because of this long cycle time, it is a good idea to double check any 
edits to the coastline for discontinuities. If you have broken it  wait 
until the re-rendering, then your error is visible to the world for 
another few weeks!



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Re: [OSM-talk] Change to ODbL imminent

[Malcolm Herring]

On 11/09/2012 17:16, Richard Weait wrote:

About thirty hours later, that newly-generated planet file will be
available


What news?


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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbL-Planet

[Malcolm Herring]

On 14/09/2012 18:04, Pavel Melnikov wrote:

The page 'http://planet.openstreetmap.org/' still says planet created 2
weeks ago. Is it The new planet?


That refers to the last weekly planet. The new planet is at the bottom 
of the page: planet-120912.osm.bz2



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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

[Malcolm Herring]

Our principal product is a street map. A street map is used to navigate
in unfamiliar places. The names on the map must correspond with names on
a street signs, signposts, etc. so that strangers may verify their position.

So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to
correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are
in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs
are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

[Malcolm Herring]

Our principal product is a street map. A street map is used to navigate
in unfamiliar places. The names on the map must correspond with names on
a street signs, signposts, etc. so that strangers may verify their position.

So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to
correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are
in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs
are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

[Malcolm Herring]

On 25/07/2012 10:21, Tom Hughes wrote:

Actually our principle product is open geodata, not a rendered map.


Point taken, but it does not alter my argument that the data in the 
database should correspond to the world as it is, not the world that we 
may prefer it to be.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Redaction progress

[Malcolm Herring]

But maybe the RF was suggesting that we swap our GPS sets for shovels 
and all get out there to dig rectangular continents?


This may sound a daunting task, but it is nothing compared to getting 
all OSM members to agree to a change in the DB license!



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Re: [Talk-us] U.S. inland waterways

[Malcolm Herring]

On 17/05/2012 19:24, Nathan Edgars II wrote:


Basically I'm tagging general characteristics of waterways. It seems the
categories will be:
*maintained for deep draft ocean vessels
*maintained for shallow draft barges and pleasure boats
*not maintained, possibly open to pleasure boats

I don't see any such values in the Seamark Tag Values table. The closest
is depth_max (shouldn't this be maxdepth, to match such tags as
maxheight?), but there don't seem to be legal depth restrictions on most
waterways here.


The seamark tags are aligned on the IHO-S57 Object  Attribute catalogue 
and are aimed at the generation of navigation charts, so are unlikely to 
provide for your needs.


I have not come across tags more detailed than boat=yes for general 
waterway data. Even that tag is ill-defined - nobody is sure whether it 
is an indication of permission or of navigability.



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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenSeaMap

[Malcolm Herring]

Frans,

Our website is: http://www.openseamap.org
Our map is to be found at: http://map.openseamap.org/map/
Information about tagging sea chart features is at: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenSeaMap/Seamark_Tag_Values

Our SourceForge project is: http://sourceforge.net/projects/openseamap/

The two newsgroups are on the Gmane NTTP server:
gmane.comp.gis.openseamap.devel
gmane.comp.gis.openseamap.maps

Regards,
Malcolm


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenSeaMap

[Malcolm Herring]

On 17/05/2012 13:08, Frans Thamura wrote:

I install seamap, it is using google map and opensea content


I do not understand what you mean by seamap and opensea.

OpenSeaMap is a web-based map that overlays our renderings over the 
OpenStreetMap Mapnik map. Nothing needs to be installed, nor does it use 
Google Maps.


Are you perhaps referring to project other than OpenSeaMap?


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenSeaMap

[Malcolm Herring]

Aha! All is now clear!

It looks like this app overlays OpenSeaMap tiles over the Google map.

So, unless the above assumption is incorrect, the relationships are:

OSM db - OpenSeaMap tileserver - ***Open Sea App*** - Google Maps


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Re: [Talk-us] U.S. inland waterways

[Malcolm Herring]

On 17/05/2012 03:44, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On 5/16/2012 10:42 PM, Dale Puch wrote:

You might check with the OpenSeaMap guys


Surely at one of them is paying attention to tagging@?


Nathan,

Yes, we are paying attention!

What is it that you wish to map? If it is for inclusion in the 
OpenSeaMap map, then the tagging needs to be in accordance with: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenSeaMap/Seamark_Tag_Values


If it is information of a more general nature, then use whatever OSM 
conventions are commonly used in USA.


I am working on an S57-to-OSM convertor that would enable the public 
domain charts to be converted to OSM files, readable by JOSM. Unlike 
other tools out there, it knows all about inland waterway features as 
per the iENC specifications currently being developed 
(http://ienc.openecdis.org/)


I have been testing it on both the European inland charts (RIS, WSV, 
etc) as well the NOAA charts. It is nearly ready for public release.


Regards,
Malcolm


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Re: [OSM-talk] Overpass API: new version 0.6.95

[Malcolm Herring]

Is the query format backward compatible? All my queries are returning empty:

?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8?
osm version=0.6 generator=Overpass API
noteThe data included in this document is from www.openstreetmap.org. 
It has there been collected by a large group of contributors. For 
individual attribution of each item please refer to 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/[node|way|relation]/#id/history /note

meta osm_base=2011-12-28T11\:30\:02Z/


/osm


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Re: [Talk-GB] How to tag marine lights on posts

[Malcolm Herring]

These are warning beacons to mark the line of reefs. The appropriate 
OpenSeaMap tagging would be:


seamark:type=beacon_special_purpose
seamark:beacon_special_purpose:category=artificial_reef
seamark:special_purpose_beacon:shape=pile
seamark:light:colour=whatever the colour of the light is
seamark:light:character=whatever the flashing pattern is
seamark:topmark:shape=if it has a topmark, the shape
seamark:topmark:colour=if it has a topmark, the colour

NB: these tags will only be rendered on OpenSeaMap (an overlay to the 
StreetMap).


man_made=beacon would be appropriate for the StreetMap, although I don't 
know whether this tag is rendered.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Tags for waterways

[Malcolm Herring]

On 31/01/2011 21:54, Chris Moss wrote:

2. That page says issues include is it navigable by powered craft? but
I can't find the relevant tag. Key:boat only relates to access as far as
I can see, not to the type of boat. This could be canoe, rowing boat,
powered boat, ship, ... Is this important?


I use boat=yes to infer navigable. I also use boat=no on the sections 
adjacent to a weir, with the cut  lock tagged boat=yes.


What do other mappers of waterways use?


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Re: [Talk-GB] Waterways Map (was invisible)

[Malcolm Herring]

On 20/01/2011 05:59, Graham Jones wrote:

I just added navigable rivers and it looks a bit more like a network now.
There are still a few odd gaps to investigate though.



The gaps are most likely due to missing boat=yes tags. I noticed that 
one river I mapped had a couple of gaps  sure enough, no boat=yes.


I encourage all riparian mappers to re-visit their efforts  
differentiate between navigable  non-navigable waterways. This applies 
to canals as well as rivers, since many neglected or disused canals are 
unnavigable even though they may still be wet.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Waterways Map (was invisible)

[Malcolm Herring]

On 20/01/2011 13:56, martyn wrote:

In my region, The River Stort navigation, from Roydon up to the limit of
navigation to Bishops Stortford, is mostly tagged waterway=river.

But this is frequently navigated, has locks, a towpath, and is wide
enough for vessels wider than the traditional narrowboats.

I'm not a waterway specialist compared to some contributors here -
would this be the most complete set of tags? What else would you add ?

waterway=canal
name=River Stort Navigation
boat=yes

cheers, Martyn


If it is a river (as in your example), then waterway=river. Some 
waterways with xxx Navigation names are often mixtures of original 
rivers and cuts (canals) to circumvent unnavigable sections (weirs, 
rapids, etc). Use the waterway=canal on those sections.



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Re: [Talk-hr] Open Sea Chart - I don't get it

[Malcolm Herring]

On 15/01/2011 09:10, 
valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote:

http://wn.com/27c3_Safety_on_the_Open_Sea_en

I really don't get this guy, why is he starting new project when
OpenSeaMap is already there?!?
I watched his talk but I just don't get his motives. If anybody gets
his points please explain. He starts to talk about OpenStreetMap and
OpenSeaMap around 30 minutes into the talk so you can quite safely
rewind to that time.

Valent.

Bernhard is an active participant in the OpenSeaMap project. His project 
to import data from the NGA List of Lights into the OSM database will 
result in the display of all those listed objects in the OSeaM map, 
since he is generating compatible tags.


The presentation he gave at CCC was aimed at a general audience (of 
computer geeks), not to mappers or mariners.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Beaches at lower zoom levels

[Malcolm Herring]

Steve Bennett wrote:

Out of curiosity, where do you get this low- and high-tide data from
anyway? On aerial photos it's pretty hard to see anything except where
the water happened to be at the time of the photo.



In the UK, OS Street View has the MHW line. You can put this in WMS 
overlay on JOSM  trace it. (Remembering to add a 
source=OS_Opendata_Streetview tag



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Re: [OSM-talk] Beaches at lower zoom levels

[Malcolm Herring]

Alan Mintz wrote:


Are coastlines supposed to be on the low-tide position, high-tide 
position, or middle of the beach? I've been gluing the low-tide side of 
beaches to coastline on the few I've edited, since their position 
suggested that was the intent.




The usual convention (Ordnance Survey for example) for land maps is to 
use Mean High Water. (Marine charts usually use Mean High Water 
Springs as their dry land datum.)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks

[Malcolm Herring]

I found a wonderful motto at the top of the user page of one of the OSM 
system administrators, TomH:


I don't give a flying monkey's for tag voting, automatic changebots, 
endless discussions, categories, or any of that crap, but prefer to get 
on and actually do stuff.


This echoes my sentiments exactly!

So, I will take my leave of this thread and spend more time writing code 
 stylesheets for the OSeaM project.


Bye!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks

[Malcolm Herring]

The data models specified in:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lights_Data_Model
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Buoy_Data_Model
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beacon_Data_Model
(more will follow as we progress)

are all part of the OpenSeaMap project. They define a namespace with
tags beginning seamark:. These tags are rendered in the OpenSeaMap 
overlay by that project's tile server with its own stylesheet. They were 
not intended for use by the OSM or other renderers, though of course, 
anyone is free to make use of them.


The rationale behind creating this distinct namespace is that they are
rigorously structured on the object and attribute catalogue of the IHO
S-57 standard. As they then have a one-to-one correspondence with that
catalogue, they can easily be converted into the S-57 interchange data
format, which is used by marine chart plotters and other navigation
equipment and databases.

The freietonne project, which is mainly oriented on inland waterways, 
have their own tagging scheme that they have designed for their 
particular needs. Our two interests overlap, particularly in river 
estuaries, so nodes with both types of tagging are to be found. This 
does not present a problem to either project, so the result is that we 
can share survey data (i.e. the longitude/latitude of nodes), but each 
can tag for their own needs.


Since these tags relate to nodes not used by OpenStreetMap, we (i.e. 
the OSM community as a whole) do not have to decide on one scheme or 
another since it has no impact on the map. Therefore the proposal  vote 
are moot.


Malcolm Herring





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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Seamarks

[Malcolm Herring]

Andreas Labres wrote:

Continuing dispute between the two groups


I was suggesting that a state of peaceful co-existence can be achieved - 
Our editors will not alter or remove tags that are not ours, and 
hopefully this will be reciprocated.



and become productive (get nice renderers, get nice editors etc.).


Nice renderers and editors do not just materialize - they have to be 
written by the members of the sub-projects. This is the crux of the 
matter - after having spend considerable time developing those tools, 
based on a particular set of tag definitions, any later suggestion that 
we should change them is not going to receive an enthusiastic response!


As far as users are concerned, editors remove the need to manually edit 
tags, thus no knowledge of the tagging scheme is necessary. As to the 
question of which scheme to use - choose the editor that will place your 
work onto the map overlay that you want to see it on.


PS: there has been a recent update of the OpenSeaMap JOSM plugin 
(toms). This is now in the OSM repository, so it can be installed 
using the JOSM Preferences dialogue. The accompanying Mappaint styles 
will shortly be installable by this method also.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Marine taggine/OpenSeamap

[Malcolm Herring]

Bernhard R. Fischer wrote:


Don't you think that we shouldn't put the lighthouse also on that page?
Everything is there: light vessel, float, major, minor lights. I think we could 
put the lighthouse also there.



You are right. I have now done it.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Marine taggine/OpenSeamap

[Malcolm Herring]

Aun Johnsen wrote:
PS These tags are documented in german only, what about those OSMers 
that doesn't understand german, are we forced to use google translate to 
ready tag descriptions? If it was documented in english at least more of 
us could understand it and maybe even contribute with translations into 
some of our own languages.


Agreed. But we need to find a volunteer to do this. The entire 
OpenSeaMap web site, with the exception of the main page needs translations.


Any native English-speakers with a good knowledge of (marine) German out 
there with time on their hands?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Marine taggine/OpenSeamap

[Malcolm Herring]

Bernhard R. Fischer wrote:


Ok, we should be able to solve this problem ;)
I started a translation:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lighthouse_Datamodel

The German version now exists twice. I'm not sure how to cleanup this in the 
wiki yet without breaking some link dependencies.


Beacons and buoys will follow.

Best regards,
Bernhard




Nice work! I assume that you are user Rahra? - my OSM user name is Malcolmh

I have done a few edits to 'colloqialise' the text.

I am about to start a new data model page for other types of charted 
lights. I will spawn it from your translated lighthouse page.


Thanks for giving me a start!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Marine taggine/OpenSeamap

[Malcolm Herring]

Bernhard,

The * is a wild card for the light number.
The Render Hint has one additional parameter, the suggested radius of the 
sector arc that will appear on the chart.
All the previous items are to create the annotation.

You are correct about the limited range of seamarks available. As I said, we 
are in the process of adding more. The next item under development is lights: 
lighthouses, major lights, minor lights and major light floats.
Click the Update Plugins button from time to time - you may find your wish 
has come true!

Malcolm
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Re: [OSM-talk] Marine taggine/OpenSeamap

[Malcolm Herring]

Bernhard,

The OpenSeaMap data model definitions are contained in three files:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tonne/Datenmodell
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bake/Datenmodell
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Leuchtfeuer/Datenmodell

You will note that all the key/value pairs are prefixed seamark: This is the 
namespace that the OpenSeaMap renderer uses.
You may find nodes in the map that have other keys as well as seamark:-prefixed 
ones, but those keys are not parsed by OpenSeaMap.

If you are interested in adding seamarks to the map, there is web-based editor 
and also a JOSM plugin. I am in the process of upgrading the plugin  will 
check in the JAR as soon as I have finished testing it. In the meantime, you 
will find the existing ones on the openseamap.org web site.
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