Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

Hummm
How about looking at it from a data consumers view point?
Who would use boundary level 6  and what for?

A resident/occupier/potential purchaser/developer may want to know who 
is the relevant authority for a particular property ...
A new employee many want confirmation of the boundaries of the authority 
they are working for.

 I suppose you could ask a real estate agent (joke) or look in OSM ...
If you are in one of these 'unincorporated areas' then with Andrew's' 
'rule' you won't get an answer.. not much help.


I would think that the 'rule' is easily expanded to include 
unincorporated areas.
What is/are  the objection/s to this expansion? Other than 'it is not in 
the wiki'.


 On 21-Dec-16 11:35 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

It's pretty simple:

1. Admin level 6 boundaries are supposed to enclose a "Local 
Government Authority".


2. In NSW the only form of "Local Government Authority" are councils 
incorporated under the Local Government Act.


3. The areas covered by these councils are "incorporated areas".

4. The three polygons in the LPI dataset labelled "UNINCORPORATED" 
represent areas that are not in the "incorporated areas" and therefore 
have no "Local Government Authority".


5. You don't put boundaries around things that don't exist.


Unincorporated areas exit.
They form a similar role to 'Local Councils'.
The areas do not overlap, in fact sharing the same ways/part boundaries.
There would be no data conflict in adding these to boundary level 6.



QED.

The SA case is complicated by the existence of the Outback Communities 
Authority. According to the Office of Local Government it's not included:


http://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/local_govt.

Which is supported by the fact that the name includes the phrase 
"unincorporated area".


On 2016-12-21 09:15, cleary wrote:


I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
Wales" because it was not administered by a council.

Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
- Local Government.

The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
some isolated communities.

The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
have different forms of governance and are not proper states!

The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
#44531564

Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
are not administered by councils.




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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 2016-12-21 16:28, Warin wrote:



:-[
Opps .. line on a map that does not represent what I though it did 
only one in NSW... on the mainland.



Nah, you were right the first time. Lord Howe Island is unincorporated.

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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

On 21-Dec-16 04:19 PM, Warin wrote:

On 21-Dec-16 04:09 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 2016-12-21 15:57, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:

/Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality/
/Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable./

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area

Can you physically define it? Yes
From survey?  maybe.

I think getting into the details of /who/ or /what/ administers
something is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the 
/is

it ground truthable?/ parts of it.



Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not 
whether or not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?


I'm saying that using an admin_level 6 boundary (which is supposed to 
enclose an LGA) is not the correct way to map these areas. They 
should be mapped by mapping all of the LGAs. By doing so the 
unincorporated areas are then represented as those within the 
admin_level 4 boundary but outside of any admin_level 6 boundary.


Then how do you then separate out the TWO  'unincorporated areas' in 
NSW ??



:-[
Opps .. line on a map that does not represent what I though it did  
only one in NSW... on the mainland.


Victoria looks to have a number of them though .. so I think the basic 
question is valid.


How are 'unincorporated areas' to be entered into OSM if not through 
level 6 boundaries ... I note that they share the boundaries of other 
level 6 entries. It would be simplest and easiest to accept them as 
level 6, in the same way that territories are the same level as states.


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 2016-12-21 16:19, Warin wrote:


Then how do you then separate out the TWO  'unincorporated areas' in NSW ??




I don't care...provided that you don't use an admin_level 6 boundary. 
May I suggest admin_level=-6 ?


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Daniel O'Connor]

Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not whether or
not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?


One of your first actions was deletion from what I understand of the
changesets, after a brief look.

Until now you havent conveyed that message (your concern is how to map)
well.

Consider using more open ended, less accusing language, you might find a
better outcome. Nobody here has a goal of making the map worse.
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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

On 21-Dec-16 04:09 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 2016-12-21 15:57, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:

/Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality/
/Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable./

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area

Can you physically define it? Yes
From survey?  maybe.

I think getting into the details of /who/ or /what/ administers
something is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the /is
it ground truthable?/ parts of it.



Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not 
whether or not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?


I'm saying that using an admin_level 6 boundary (which is supposed to 
enclose an LGA) is not the correct way to map these areas. They should 
be mapped by mapping all of the LGAs. By doing so the unincorporated 
areas are then represented as those within the admin_level 4 boundary 
but outside of any admin_level 6 boundary.


Then how do you then separate out the TWO  'unincorporated areas' in NSW ??



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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 2016-12-21 15:57, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:

/Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality/
/Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way
should not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable./

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area

Can you physically define it? Yes
From survey?  maybe.

I think getting into the details of /who/ or /what/ administers
something is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the /is
it ground truthable?/ parts of it.



Straw men seem to be popular this afternoon. The question is not whether 
or not you map an unincorporated area but how should you map it?


I'm saying that using an admin_level 6 boundary (which is supposed to 
enclose an LGA) is not the correct way to map these areas. They should 
be mapped by mapping all of the LGAs. By doing so the unincorporated 
areas are then represented as those within the admin_level 4 boundary 
but outside of any admin_level 6 boundary.


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Daniel O'Connor]

Just want to point out the advice from the wiki:

*Don't map your local legislation, if not bound to objects in reality*
*Things such as local traffic rules should only be mapped through the
objects which represent these rules on the ground, e.g. a traffic sign,
road surface marking. Other rules that can not be seen in some way should
not be mapped, as they are not universally verifiable.*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area
Can you physically define it? Yes
>From survey?  maybe.

I think getting into the details of *who* or *what* administers something
is irrelevant; or at least highly marginal compared to the *is it ground
truthable?* parts of it.
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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 2016-12-21 15:30, Warin wrote:


There is an authority that performs the role of a 'local council' in
these areas ... I don't care what it is called.
There is in effect a 'local council' there, it is not 'no mans' land',
the 'wild west' etc.



Nice straw man there... Who said that no council equals wild west?

Clearly I'm having trouble making this simple enough. So instead have a 
read of this:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area

then have a read of this:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/77214EF6765D0541CA2578D40012CF2E?opendocument

Then think about the title of this thread which is in effect asking how 
do I map a local government area with no local government?


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 2016-12-21 14:53, Warin wrote:

On 21-Dec-16 11:38 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 2016-12-21 11:01, Warin wrote:

So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by
'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM
for the same function.


The area is managed by the State of New South Wales and there is
already a admin_level 4 boundary marking that out.



Taken to the extreme councils are subject to the governance by the State
of New South Wales.


Obviously. They are entirely a creation of a State government act.


For example the amalgamation of councils, placing certain councils into
governance by an unelected official all done by the State Government.


So what? The local government authority still exists even if the council 
is being run by an administrator. Admin_level 6 means that there is a 
local government authority in place, not that it is democratically elected.




These 'unincorporated areas' have some part of the gobermint
administering them ... as such the have an entity preforming at least
some of the actions of a 'local council' (building approvals for example).
The most logical place to have that data in under the 'local government'
section.



We're not mapping with the administrative boundary the areas where there 
are garbage services, building approvals are required, or the streets 
have kerbs and gutters.  We're mapping where there is a local government 
authority in place, and, as it says on the box 'unincorporated area', 
there is no local government authority in these areas.


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

On 21-Dec-16 11:38 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 2016-12-21 11:01, Warin wrote:

So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by
'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM
for the same function.


The area is managed by the State of New South Wales and there is 
already a admin_level 4 boundary marking that out.




Taken to the extreme councils are subject to the governance by the State 
of New South Wales.
For example the amalgamation of councils, placing certain councils into 
governance by an unelected official all done by the State Government.


These 'unincorporated areas' have some part of the gobermint 
administering them ... as such the have an entity preforming at least 
some of the actions of a 'local council' (building approvals for example).
The most logical place to have that data in under the 'local government' 
section.



Interesting review dated 2013 
http://www.olg.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/Strengthening-Far-West-Communities-Supporting-Information-Volume-3.pdf 






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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

On 2016-12-21 11:01, Warin wrote:

So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by
'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM
for the same function.


The area is managed by the State of New South Wales and there is already 
a admin_level 4 boundary marking that out.


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Andrew Davidson]

It's pretty simple:

1. Admin level 6 boundaries are supposed to enclose a "Local Government 
Authority".


2. In NSW the only form of "Local Government Authority" are councils 
incorporated under the Local Government Act.


3. The areas covered by these councils are "incorporated areas".

4. The three polygons in the LPI dataset labelled "UNINCORPORATED" 
represent areas that are not in the "incorporated areas" and therefore 
have no "Local Government Authority".


5. You don't put boundaries around things that don't exist.

QED.

The SA case is complicated by the existence of the Outback Communities 
Authority. According to the Office of Local Government it's not included:


http://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/local_govt.

Which is supported by the fact that the name includes the phrase 
"unincorporated area".


On 2016-12-21 09:15, cleary wrote:


I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
Wales" because it was not administered by a council.

Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
- Local Government.

The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
some isolated communities.

The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
have different forms of governance and are not proper states!

The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
#44531564

Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
are not administered by councils.




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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

On 21-Dec-16 09:15 AM, cleary wrote:

I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
Wales" because it was not administered by a council.

Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
- Local Government.

The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
some isolated communities.

The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
have different forms of governance and are not proper states!


The 'territories' are covered in the OSMwiki as equivalent to states.

My view : if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck ... it is a duck.

So the governance is irrelevant to the issue ... the area is managed by 
'something' ..that 'something'  should be treated the same way in OSM for the 
same function.

So ... my view - change the wiki to reflect 'our' circumstance.


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[talk-au] Deletions was Re: Local Government Areas without Councils

[Warin]

On 21-Dec-16 10:45 AM, Nick Hocking wrote:
As a side issue: I don't believe that a mapper's work should be 
deleted by anyone other than the mapper themselves, unless it is 
agreed on this list that the work was vandalism or copyright violation.


I too don't like deleting stuff ... even my own. I have found that 
deletions are better approached by changing the tags rather than 
outright deletion e.g. 'highway=*' to 'obsolete:highway=*'


But I don't think a requirement of discussion on the list is required, 
better is the suggestion that the author be contacted using the 
changesets comments before acting?


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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Daniel O'Connor]

Its an interesting one - unlike suburbs, LGAs don't really have a physical
presence or much you can survey; even though they have a spatial
relationship/are often defined by physical features.
For being surveyable... maybe you get a 'welcome to foo shire' sign or two.

I would say that* if an LGA is suitable to be added*, Unincorporated Areas
and other weird things like http://www.ncl.net.au/ (A town owned by a
corporation that provides services *like* an LGA, but isn't legally an LGA)
should be suitable too.


In terms of actually using the data; I find that relying on the ABS data
and treating that as a separate data set is often quite useful. I'd be
inclined to not worry too much about adding them in; particularly when they
do fun things like merge frequently - maintenance pain in the behind and a
half!



On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 8:45 AM, cleary  wrote:

>
> I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
> Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
> currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
> another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
> response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
> that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
> Wales" because it was not administered by a council.
>
> Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
> respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
> Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
> - Local Government.
>
> The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
> form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
> government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
> well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
> Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
> Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
> in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
> government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
> administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
> some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
> designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
> have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
> of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
> any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
> Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
> some isolated communities.
>
> The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
> determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
> to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
> have different forms of governance and are not proper states!
>
> The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
> The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
> The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
> #44531564
>
> Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
> governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
> particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
> are not administered by councils.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[Alex Sims]

Speaking of SA only I would define the LGA locations administered by the 
Outback Communities Authority as Unincorporated as
- thats how other hierarchies used by Government, ABS etc define it, and every 
point in SA is either in an LGA or Unincorporated
- Unincorporated means Outback Communities Authority does your bins, dog 
registration, planning, etc

The Pitjantjatjara lands I would define as not Unincorporated as "Anangu 
Pitjantjatjara Yankunytjatjara” in the LGA level as that body peforms the 
equivalent function to an LGA, and it is not covered by the Outback Communities 
Authority so its not Unincorporated but not an LGA but something else that 
sites underneath the State. Similar Logic for Maralinga etc.

Alex

> On 21 Dec 2016, at 8:45 am, cleary  wrote:
> 
> 
> I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
> Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
> currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
> another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
> response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
> that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
> Wales" because it was not administered by a council.
> 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


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[talk-au] Local Government Areas without Councils

[cleary]

I have been adding administrative boundaries in NSW and SA using the
Government data for which OSM has been given explicit permission. I am
currently working on the "Pastoral Unincorporated Area" in SA and
another mapper commented that it was inappropriate. I responded but my
response appears not to have satisfied the other mapper.  I then found
that the same mapper had deleted the "Unincorporated Area of New South
Wales" because it was not administered by a council.

Both of these "unincorporated" areas are defined and designated in the
respective government datasets, that is (1) South Australian Government
Data - Local Government Areas and (2) LPI NSW Administrative Boundaries
- Local Government. 

The issue for the other mapper appears to be the acceptability of the
form of governance of these areas. While the majority of local
government areas are administered by councils, this model works less
well in areas which are sparsely populated. The Pastoral Unincorporated
Area in South Australia is administered by a designated authority, the
Outback Communities Authority, which is not a council either in name or
in the usual sense. I am aware of three other designated local
government areas in South Australia that do not have councils - two are
administered by the indigenous residents although they appear to have
some form of executive committee to make routine decisions. One
designated local government area does not appear to have a council and I
have not ascertained the form of governance.  In the Unincorporated Area
of New South Wales, responsibilities are dispersed and do not rest with
any one body, for example roads are managed by the Roads and Maritime
Services (state authority) and there are local advisory committees in
some isolated communities. 

The key issue is whether the form of governance in an area should
determine whether or not areas should be mapped in OSM. It seems to me
to be akin to removing Northern Territory and ACT on the basis that they
have different forms of governance and are not proper states!

The comments on the Pastoral Unincorporated Area can be viewed at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44528330#map=12/-34.3720/140.4687
The relation for the Pastoral Unincorporated Area is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6804541
The deleted relation for Unincorporated Area of New South Wales is at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5892272 and refers to Changeset
#44531564

Do other members of the OSM community have a view on whether the form of
governance should determine what areas are shown on the map and
particularly whether local government areas should be included if they
are not administered by councils.




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