Re: [talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 13:52, John Bryant  wrote:

>
> I'm not totally full bottle on all the mailman list management variables,
> but I think it's managed with the reply_goes_to_list setting here:
>
> https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-admin/node11.html
>

Thanks, John, but not something that can be fixed from my end!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 05:37, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Resending message to the list :-(
>
> How do we fix it so that "Reply" goes to the list, not just the last
> poster?
>

I'm not totally full bottle on all the mailman list management variables,
but I think it's managed with the reply_goes_to_list setting here:

https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-admin/node11.html
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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

Thanks Ben,

That's a good point re: accuracy. But absolute position within a few meters
may be OK, if the relative position is maintained. Vine rows are generally
visible on imagery and could be mapped that way. It's also not unusual for
a vineyard to survey their rows with high accuracy GPS.

About usefulness to farmers... this mapping initiative is coming from the
viticulture community, so I have to assume they have reasons to find it
useful.  If those reasons are compelling enough, they'll probably be the
ones doing much of the mapping... and if in the end it doesn't prove to be
useful then it probably won't go very far.

Cheers
John

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 10:54, Benjamin Ceravolo 
wrote:

> I understand the principal being explained above as to why Vire rows are
> wanting to be mapped, but my question is is it even practical within the
> use of the map considering that viren reos are approximately 1.5m apart and
> all but the most high end GNSS (GPS) units are +1m accuracy. My point being
> that I (from a map usage standpoint) don't see how the mapping of vine
> rows would be useful to farmers, if anything they want to mark any data,
> while out in the Vineyard would ether be potentially inaccurate or be have
> to be mapped on paper which I think defeats the purpose of mapping it on
> OSM.
>
> Thanks, Ben.
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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[Andrew Harvey]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 13:54, Benjamin Ceravolo 
wrote:

> I understand the principal being explained above as to why Vire rows are
> wanting to be mapped, but my question is is it even practical within the
> use of the map considering that viren reos are approximately 1.5m apart and
> all but the most high end GNSS (GPS) units are +1m accuracy. My point being
> that I (from a map usage standpoint) don't see how the mapping of vine
> rows would be useful to farmers, if anything they want to mark any data,
> while out in the Vineyard would ether be potentially inaccurate or be have
> to be mapped on paper which I think defeats the purpose of mapping it on
> OSM.
>

Paths in cemeteries are also very close together, but with aerial imagery
it's possible to map out with this detail (even if the whole thing is
shifted that's okay and never going to be perfect anyway.
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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

Thanks Ian, that's a very good point re: consistency with orchards &
plantations. Whether this style of mapping will actually prove to be
broadly useful, time will tell I suppose, but seems better to start off
aiming for consistency.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 06:41, Little Maps  wrote:

> That’s an interesting development in OSM micro-mapping John. Can I put a
> vote in for using natural=tree_row rather than barrier=fence, if no better
> options are available. I’m not arguing from the point of rendering, but
> from the perspective of developing a tagging scheme that will be useful in
> other orchards and even perhaps timber plantations, if future mappers
> extend this process. Most (all?) orchards and plantations have woody plants
> in rows, but only a few have fence-like trellises. Natural=tree_row would
> be suitable for a wide range of orchards and plantations whereas
> barrier=fence is much more restricted. It would be a pain if the almond
> plantations and citrus orchards in a region used one tagging scheme while
> the nearby vineyards used a different one. I’m certainly glad I don’t have
> to map them all! Best wishes Ian
>
> On 16 Oct 2020, at 8:37 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Resending message to the list :-(
>
> How do we fix it so that "Reply" goes to the list, not just the last
> poster?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 17:20
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging
> To: John Bryant 
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 16:34, John Bryant  wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, they want to map rows, to use OSM in a way that will be useful to
>> the viticulture community. The idea is to add more detail to vineyards than
>> is currently in OSM, which has vineyard areas but not rows.
>>
>> To some degree, but for viticulture people it would be useful to use
>> *actual* rather than assumed locations.
>>
>
> Fair enough.
>
> Referring to the OSM carto rendering? That's a good point. What else could
>> we use to describe a vine row?
>>
>
> As Brendan mentioned, mark them in as fences, which will show a nice
> straight line, although that could be called tagging for the renderer! :-)
> It wouldn't be altogether wrong though, as they do form a barrier to
> movement across the rows!
>
> do features like vine rows belong in OSM? Does the difficulty in finding a
>> tagging schema for vine rows point to an incompatible feature type? I had
>> assumed that because they're readily observable on the ground, and
>> relatively persistent, it would make sense to map them... but if there's a
>> reason they shouldn't be in OSM it would be good to know, so the folks I'm
>> helping can change course.
>>
>
> I guess that's a question of what do the end-users want to see about
> "their" land? Most would probably be happy just to see it as a vineyard,
> but if somebody wants extra detail, is it up to us to say "No"? I wouldn't
> have said so, myself!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

Thanks Phil, there's a brief note about denotation=* in combination with
natural=tree (and by extension, natural=tree_row?) on the wiki [1].
Combining with crop=grape seems to be a new approach...

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree#Subtag_denotation_to_indicate_the_significance

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 17:11, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> Where does the denotation=agricultural come from as it doesn’t appear to
> be a regular combination with crop=grape ??
>
>
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=grape#combinations
>
>
>
> Cheers Phil
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrew Harvey 
> *Sent:* Thursday, 15 October 2020 7:52 PM
> *To:* John Bryant 
> *Cc:* talk-au 
> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging
>
>
>
> I think it's fine to map these in OSM, like all other things in private
> property it does make it harder to validate and determining the exact crop
> from imagery might be a stretch, but I don't think this is enough of a
> reason to not map.
>
>
>
> I agree with the suggestion of natural=tree_row +
> denotation=agricultural + crop=grape is best. These are all well documented
> and in-use tags and this use matches the description of what they are for.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 15:13, John Bryant  wrote:
>
> Hi all, I'm doing some work with a community agriculture group looking at
> adding vineyard-related features to OSM, at this point starting with just
> vine rows.
>
> Vineyards themselves (ie. the polygons that contain the rows) are often
> tagged with landuse=vineyard and crop=grape [1][2].
>
> I can't see anything relevant to this in the Australian tagging
> guidelines. Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been
> widely mapped before.
>
> For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had
> suggestions of natural=tree_row, denotation=agricultural, and crop=grape,
> but not totally confident about this.
>
> Does anyone here have any thoughts or suggestions?
>
> Thanks
> John
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvineyard
> [2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=vineyard#combinations
>
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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[Benjamin Ceravolo]

I understand the principal being explained above as to why Vire rows are
wanting to be mapped, but my question is is it even practical within the
use of the map considering that viren reos are approximately 1.5m apart and
all but the most high end GNSS (GPS) units are +1m accuracy. My point being
that I (from a map usage standpoint) don't see how the mapping of vine
rows would be useful to farmers, if anything they want to mark any data,
while out in the Vineyard would ether be potentially inaccurate or be have
to be mapped on paper which I think defeats the purpose of mapping it on
OSM.

Thanks, Ben.
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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[Little Maps]

That’s an interesting development in OSM micro-mapping John. Can I put a vote 
in for using natural=tree_row rather than barrier=fence, if no better options 
are available. I’m not arguing from the point of rendering, but from the 
perspective of developing a tagging scheme that will be useful in other 
orchards and even perhaps timber plantations, if future mappers extend this 
process. Most (all?) orchards and plantations have woody plants in rows, but 
only a few have fence-like trellises. Natural=tree_row would be suitable for a 
wide range of orchards and plantations whereas barrier=fence is much more 
restricted. It would be a pain if the almond plantations and citrus orchards in 
a region used one tagging scheme while the nearby vineyards used a different 
one. I’m certainly glad I don’t have to map them all! Best wishes Ian

> On 16 Oct 2020, at 8:37 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> 
> Resending message to the list :-(
> 
> How do we fix it so that "Reply" goes to the list, not just the last poster?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 17:20
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging
> To: John Bryant 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 16:34, John Bryant  wrote:
>> 
>> Well, they want to map rows, to use OSM in a way that will be useful to the 
>> viticulture community. The idea is to add more detail to vineyards than is 
>> currently in OSM, which has vineyard areas but not rows.
>>  
>> To some degree, but for viticulture people it would be useful to use 
>> *actual* rather than assumed locations.
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
>> Referring to the OSM carto rendering? That's a good point. What else could 
>> we use to describe a vine row?
> 
> As Brendan mentioned, mark them in as fences, which will show a nice straight 
> line, although that could be called tagging for the renderer! :-) It wouldn't 
> be altogether wrong though, as they do form a barrier to movement across the 
> rows!
> 
>> do features like vine rows belong in OSM? Does the difficulty in finding a 
>> tagging schema for vine rows point to an incompatible feature type? I had 
>> assumed that because they're readily observable on the ground, and 
>> relatively persistent, it would make sense to map them... but if there's a 
>> reason they shouldn't be in OSM it would be good to know, so the folks I'm 
>> helping can change course.
> 
> I guess that's a question of what do the end-users want to see about "their" 
> land? Most would probably be happy just to see it as a vineyard, but if 
> somebody wants extra detail, is it up to us to say "No"? I wouldn't have said 
> so, myself! 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 
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[talk-au] Fwd: vine row tagging

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Resending message to the list :-(

How do we fix it so that "Reply" goes to the list, not just the last poster?

Thanks

Graeme


-- Forwarded message -
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 17:20
Subject: Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging
To: John Bryant 





On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 16:34, John Bryant  wrote:

>
> Well, they want to map rows, to use OSM in a way that will be useful to
> the viticulture community. The idea is to add more detail to vineyards than
> is currently in OSM, which has vineyard areas but not rows.
>
> To some degree, but for viticulture people it would be useful to use
> *actual* rather than assumed locations.
>

Fair enough.

Referring to the OSM carto rendering? That's a good point. What else could
> we use to describe a vine row?
>

As Brendan mentioned, mark them in as fences, which will show a nice
straight line, although that could be called tagging for the renderer! :-)
It wouldn't be altogether wrong though, as they do form a barrier to
movement across the rows!

do features like vine rows belong in OSM? Does the difficulty in finding a
> tagging schema for vine rows point to an incompatible feature type? I had
> assumed that because they're readily observable on the ground, and
> relatively persistent, it would make sense to map them... but if there's a
> reason they shouldn't be in OSM it would be good to know, so the folks I'm
> helping can change course.
>

I guess that's a question of what do the end-users want to see about
"their" land? Most would probably be happy just to see it as a vineyard,
but if somebody wants extra detail, is it up to us to say "No"? I wouldn't
have said so, myself!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Folks,

 

Where does the denotation=agricultural come from as it doesn’t appear to be a 
regular combination with crop=grape ??

 

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=grape#combinations

 

Cheers Phil

 

 

From: Andrew Harvey  
Sent: Thursday, 15 October 2020 7:52 PM
To: John Bryant 
Cc: talk-au 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

 

I think it's fine to map these in OSM, like all other things in private 
property it does make it harder to validate and determining the exact crop from 
imagery might be a stretch, but I don't think this is enough of a reason to not 
map.

 

I agree with the suggestion of natural=tree_row + denotation=agricultural + 
crop=grape is best. These are all well documented and in-use tags and this use 
matches the description of what they are for.

 

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 15:13, John Bryant mailto:johnwbry...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi all, I'm doing some work with a community agriculture group looking at 
adding vineyard-related features to OSM, at this point starting with just vine 
rows. 

Vineyards themselves (ie. the polygons that contain the rows) are often tagged 
with landuse=vineyard and crop=grape [1][2].

I can't see anything relevant to this in the Australian tagging guidelines. 
Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been widely mapped before.

For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had 
suggestions of natural=tree_row, denotation=agricultural, and crop=grape, but 
not totally confident about this.

Does anyone here have any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks
John

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvineyard
[2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=vineyard#combinations

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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[Andrew Harvey]

I think it's fine to map these in OSM, like all other things in private
property it does make it harder to validate and determining the exact crop
from imagery might be a stretch, but I don't think this is enough of a
reason to not map.

I agree with the suggestion of natural=tree_row +
denotation=agricultural + crop=grape is best. These are all well documented
and in-use tags and this use matches the description of what they are for.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 15:13, John Bryant  wrote:

> Hi all, I'm doing some work with a community agriculture group looking at
> adding vineyard-related features to OSM, at this point starting with just
> vine rows.
>
> Vineyards themselves (ie. the polygons that contain the rows) are often
> tagged with landuse=vineyard and crop=grape [1][2].
>
> I can't see anything relevant to this in the Australian tagging
> guidelines. Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been
> widely mapped before.
>
> For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had
> suggestions of natural=tree_row, denotation=agricultural, and crop=grape,
> but not totally confident about this.
>
> Does anyone here have any thoughts or suggestions?
>
> Thanks
> John
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvineyard
> [2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=vineyard#combinations
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

Thanks Simon, putting the data into OSM isn't meant to replace GIS, all the
things you mention are certainly part of the professional viticulture
community's practice. I believe this idea is more around enabling a
different kind of access to information, and exploring the possibilities of
using an open platform to enable it.

Cheers
John

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 15:58, Simon Slater  wrote:

> On Thursday, 15 October 2020 6:23:36 PM AEDT John Bryant wrote:
> > This is part of a viticulture community-driven project to build consensus
> > around use & sharing of data, and part of the discussion is around data
> > ownership and openness. The project has the Australian Farm Data Code [1]
> > as one of its guiding principles, so it's definitely on the radar. I'm
> not
> > running the project myself, but helping to answer some of the questions
> > about open geospatial (hence this query!).
>
> For this level of detail, would a GIS be more useful, pulling roads etc.
> from
> OSM?  Then other things useful to the viticulturist, such as soil type,
> slope,
> aspect, rainfall, irrigation and drainage (natural or artificial) even
> cadastre for individual blocks, could be layered in as needed and is as
> much,
> or as little, detail as required.
>
> GRASS or QGIS are readily available as FOSS if that is a requirement.
>
> --
> Regards
> Simon Slater
>
> Registered Linux User #463789 @ http://linuxcounter.net
>
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[Simon Slater]

On Thursday, 15 October 2020 6:23:36 PM AEDT John Bryant wrote:
> This is part of a viticulture community-driven project to build consensus
> around use & sharing of data, and part of the discussion is around data
> ownership and openness. The project has the Australian Farm Data Code [1]
> as one of its guiding principles, so it's definitely on the radar. I'm not
> running the project myself, but helping to answer some of the questions
> about open geospatial (hence this query!).

For this level of detail, would a GIS be more useful, pulling roads etc. from 
OSM?  Then other things useful to the viticulturist, such as soil type, slope, 
aspect, rainfall, irrigation and drainage (natural or artificial) even 
cadastre for individual blocks, could be layered in as needed and is as much, 
or as little, detail as required.

GRASS or QGIS are readily available as FOSS if that is a requirement.

-- 
Regards
Simon Slater

Registered Linux User #463789 @ http://linuxcounter.net

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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

Thanks Brendan, this is an interesting idea! There's definitely some
interest in capturing data at the vine level, but it presents some
complications for some in the viticulture community, so vine rows are seen
as a suitable level of abstraction for this stage.

barrier=fence... also interesting... made up of vines on wires running
between posts, the typical vine row is quite fence-like.

Thanks
John


On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:49, Brendan Barnes  wrote:

> Depends of level of detail sought, but each grapevine could be marked as
> natural=shrub .
>
> My first thought was to use barrier=fence
> , but the wiki
> defines it as a "freestanding structure designed to *restrict or prevent
> movement across a boundary*".
>
> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 17:46, Adam Steer  wrote:
>
>> Hey John
>>
>> What are the owners of the properties containing vines saying? Are they
>> fully aware that their farm data will be open for everyone to see?
>>
>> ...and what data/tagging useful to them?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adam
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 08:40, John Bryant  wrote:
>>
>>> So, map the strainer posts on the ends of the rows, rather than the rows
>>> themselves, and then the end user could use them to interpolate the row?
>>> That's an interesting idea.
>>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:33, nwastra  wrote:
>>>
 Many vineyards have numbered rows with a tag on the end strainer posts
 to assist direction of workers, etc.
 These could be numbered using the addr interpolation scheme and then
 individual rows would not need to be mapped but does need a close survey.

 On 15 Oct 2020, at 3:32 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 wrote:




 On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:13, John Bryant 
 wrote:

> Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been widely
> mapped before.
>

 Do you need to?

 I think it could be automatically assumed that all vineyards have their
 vines in rows, approx the same distance apart?

 I noticed vine_row_orientation
 =* :
 vine row orientation (in degrees)on the wiki page - wouldn't that be
 sufficient?

 For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've
> had suggestions of natural=tree_row,
>

 If you were going to put a tree_row on every row of vines, you'd have
 nothing but a solid mass of them!

 denotation=agricultural,
>

 Sorry, not sure what you mean with this?

 and crop=grape,
>

 Marked as being redundant as all vineyards grow grapes! :-)

 Thanks

 Graeme

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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

Thanks Adam,

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:44, Adam Steer  wrote:

> What are the owners of the properties containing vines saying? Are they
> fully aware that their farm data will be open for everyone to see?
>
This is part of a viticulture community-driven project to build consensus
around use & sharing of data, and part of the discussion is around data
ownership and openness. The project has the Australian Farm Data Code [1]
as one of its guiding principles, so it's definitely on the radar. I'm not
running the project myself, but helping to answer some of the questions
about open geospatial (hence this query!).


> ...and what data/tagging useful to them?
>
Re: data, starting with vine rows as a first step, but possibly farm
tracks, fences, and other infrastructure might be useful later, of course
depending on its suitability for OSM.
Re: tags, I think the viticulture community is pretty non-fussed about what
specific tags are used, as long as they can use OSM and do the right thing
by the OSM community.

Cheers
John

[1] https://nff.org.au/programs/australian-farm-data-code/
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[Brendan Barnes]

Depends of level of detail sought, but each grapevine could be marked as
natural=shrub .

My first thought was to use barrier=fence
, but the wiki
defines it as a "freestanding structure designed to *restrict or prevent
movement across a boundary*".

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 17:46, Adam Steer  wrote:

> Hey John
>
> What are the owners of the properties containing vines saying? Are they
> fully aware that their farm data will be open for everyone to see?
>
> ...and what data/tagging useful to them?
>
> Cheers,
> Adam
>
> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 08:40, John Bryant  wrote:
>
>> So, map the strainer posts on the ends of the rows, rather than the rows
>> themselves, and then the end user could use them to interpolate the row?
>> That's an interesting idea.
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:33, nwastra  wrote:
>>
>>> Many vineyards have numbered rows with a tag on the end strainer posts
>>> to assist direction of workers, etc.
>>> These could be numbered using the addr interpolation scheme and then
>>> individual rows would not need to be mapped but does need a close survey.
>>>
>>> On 15 Oct 2020, at 3:32 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:13, John Bryant  wrote:
>>>
 Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been widely
 mapped before.

>>>
>>> Do you need to?
>>>
>>> I think it could be automatically assumed that all vineyards have their
>>> vines in rows, approx the same distance apart?
>>>
>>> I noticed vine_row_orientation
>>> =* : vine
>>> row orientation (in degrees)on the wiki page - wouldn't that be sufficient?
>>>
>>> For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had
 suggestions of natural=tree_row,

>>>
>>> If you were going to put a tree_row on every row of vines, you'd have
>>> nothing but a solid mass of them!
>>>
>>> denotation=agricultural,

>>>
>>> Sorry, not sure what you mean with this?
>>>
>>> and crop=grape,

>>>
>>> Marked as being redundant as all vineyards grow grapes! :-)
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>>
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[Adam Steer]

 Hey John

What are the owners of the properties containing vines saying? Are they
fully aware that their farm data will be open for everyone to see?

...and what data/tagging useful to them?

Cheers,
Adam

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 08:40, John Bryant  wrote:

> So, map the strainer posts on the ends of the rows, rather than the rows
> themselves, and then the end user could use them to interpolate the row?
> That's an interesting idea.
>
> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:33, nwastra  wrote:
>
>> Many vineyards have numbered rows with a tag on the end strainer posts to
>> assist direction of workers, etc.
>> These could be numbered using the addr interpolation scheme and then
>> individual rows would not need to be mapped but does need a close survey.
>>
>> On 15 Oct 2020, at 3:32 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:13, John Bryant  wrote:
>>
>>> Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been widely mapped
>>> before.
>>>
>>
>> Do you need to?
>>
>> I think it could be automatically assumed that all vineyards have their
>> vines in rows, approx the same distance apart?
>>
>> I noticed vine_row_orientation
>> =* : vine
>> row orientation (in degrees)on the wiki page - wouldn't that be sufficient?
>>
>> For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had
>>> suggestions of natural=tree_row,
>>>
>>
>> If you were going to put a tree_row on every row of vines, you'd have
>> nothing but a solid mass of them!
>>
>> denotation=agricultural,
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, not sure what you mean with this?
>>
>> and crop=grape,
>>>
>>
>> Marked as being redundant as all vineyards grow grapes! :-)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

So, map the strainer posts on the ends of the rows, rather than the rows
themselves, and then the end user could use them to interpolate the row?
That's an interesting idea.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:33, nwastra  wrote:

> Many vineyards have numbered rows with a tag on the end strainer posts to
> assist direction of workers, etc.
> These could be numbered using the addr interpolation scheme and then
> individual rows would not need to be mapped but does need a close survey.
>
> On 15 Oct 2020, at 3:32 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:13, John Bryant  wrote:
>
>> Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been widely mapped
>> before.
>>
>
> Do you need to?
>
> I think it could be automatically assumed that all vineyards have their
> vines in rows, approx the same distance apart?
>
> I noticed vine_row_orientation
> =* : vine
> row orientation (in degrees)on the wiki page - wouldn't that be sufficient?
>
> For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had
>> suggestions of natural=tree_row,
>>
>
> If you were going to put a tree_row on every row of vines, you'd have
> nothing but a solid mass of them!
>
> denotation=agricultural,
>>
>
> Sorry, not sure what you mean with this?
>
> and crop=grape,
>>
>
> Marked as being redundant as all vineyards grow grapes! :-)
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [talk-au] vine row tagging

[John Bryant]

Thanks Graeme, I appreciate your response, answers to your questions below.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 13:32, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Do you need to?
>
Well, they want to map rows, to use OSM in a way that will be useful to the
viticulture community. The idea is to add more detail to vineyards than is
currently in OSM, which has vineyard areas but not rows.


> I think it could be automatically assumed that all vineyards have their
> vines in rows, approx the same distance apart?
>
To some degree, but for viticulture people it would be useful to use
*actual* rather than assumed locations.


> I noticed vine_row_orientation
> =* : vine
> row orientation (in degrees)on the wiki page - wouldn't that be sufficient?
>
That seems good for vineyard areas, but isn't needed for rows, which is
what we're trying to figure out tagging for.


> For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had
>> suggestions of natural=tree_row,
>>
> If you were going to put a tree_row on every row of vines, you'd have
> nothing but a solid mass of them!
>
Referring to the OSM carto rendering? That's a good point. What else could
we use to describe a vine row?


> denotation=agricultural,
>>
> Sorry, not sure what you mean with this?
>
This was a suggestion that came to us, it's relatively commonly used for
trees and tree rows, but I'm not sure if it makes sense for vine rows,
which is why I'm asking :)

and crop=grape,
>>
> Marked as being redundant as all vineyards grow grapes! :-)
>
Yes I agree for vineyards. But specifically thinking about vine rows for
this tagging.

I guess these comments raise the question, do features like vine rows
belong in OSM? Does the difficulty in finding a tagging schema for vine
rows point to an incompatible feature type? I had assumed that because
they're readily observable on the ground, and relatively persistent, it
would make sense to map them... but if there's a reason they shouldn't be
in OSM it would be good to know, so the folks I'm helping can change course.

Cheers
John
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[talk-au] vine row tagging

[nwastra]

Many vineyards have numbered rows with a tag on the end strainer posts to 
assist direction of workers, etc.
These could be numbered using the addr interpolation scheme and then individual 
rows would not need to be mapped but does need a close survey.

> On 15 Oct 2020, at 3:32 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:13, John Bryant  wrote:
>> Looking more broadly, it looks like vine rows haven't been widely mapped 
>> before.
> 
> Do you need to?
> 
> I think it could be automatically assumed that all vineyards have their vines 
> in rows, approx the same distance apart?
> 
> I noticed vine_row_orientation=* : vine row orientation (in degrees)on the 
> wiki page - wouldn't that be sufficient?
> 
>> For vine *rows* (ie. the linear features within the vineyard), we've had 
>> suggestions of natural=tree_row,
> 
> If you were going to put a tree_row on every row of vines, you'd have nothing 
> but a solid mass of them!  
> 
>> denotation=agricultural,
> 
> Sorry, not sure what you mean with this?
> 
>> and crop=grape,
> 
> Marked as being redundant as all vineyards grow grapes! :-)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 
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