Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM
Absolutely no offense was taken, hence the winky ;)... it was solely the moment of realisation of my current ignorance on the matter... which I don't take as a bad thing. It's a new opportunity to learn more, so much thanks for taking the time to respond comprehensively and not just 'RTFM' me. Will process the rest of your lengthy message shortly. It's quite related, but for anyone into waterways, topology, and aethestics, I discovered 'Relative Elevation Maps' the other day, and they are *stunning*... would love to do the Hunter in this style. Intro: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/19b6bfe0c3aa454c853bd6d9b7228adf Dan making amazing art: https://twitter.com/geo_coe/status/1549953305110929408 and https://dancoecarto.com Tech howto: https://michaelpaulschramm.com/posts/2022-09-20-lidar-rem/ On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 11:56, stevea wrote: > Josh (and talk-au list): My remarks certainly were not meant to be or > seem like an attack, against you or anybody in particular. I apologize to > you for my remarks: I did not mean to attack you and I am sorry it came > across that way. It was a reply to Joseph Crowell's remarks (his "side > note," really) that relations are "a nightmare to work with within iD and > one of the main reasons people switch to another editor." I was concurring > with Joseph and wanted to strengthen that with my added "positive" by > suggesting another editor (JOSM), which I consider superior for editing > relations (especially compared to iD). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM
OMG... I am drooling looking at what you've done here. Just switched the 0212 in your overpass query for 0210 (Hunter River) and zoomed into the Newcastle region... and voilá: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vuY Was this the changeset that did your GA import for my area: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/102326974 ? I think all my changes since then have been building on that. My context here: I like random exploration, and a someday goal is paddleboarding the local catchment. (I've already run or ridden a fair bit of it, watercraft required now...) Back to my overpass link: The blue now tells me which ways are missing a relation... I don't think I need to do one for every stream, but there's a few major ones I've missed. And this raises some questions for me... Where do things sit with putting tags on the relation vs on the individual ways? Intermittent= and waterway= obviously change from way to way and so go on them, but name, destination, wikidata, etc? Feels like that should be all on the relation, but renderers may not use that? (Asking pragmatically, I'm well-aware of not mapping for rendering. But it does annoy me when you search for some feature that is obviously part of a greater whole, and there's no indication from a returned way that such is the case.) Thanks. On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 11:53, Andrew Davidson wrote: > On 27/5/23 08:39, nwastra nwastra wrote: > > I should add that I have only used the Surface Hydrology Lines from > GeoScience Aust dataset for Qld catchments and as the data is drawn for > many different sources across the country the perenniality may be not > always be included. > > I admit I've been too lazy to publish the stuff I'd already done with > the GA dataset. Rather than making people do it all again I've finally > got round to putting it on GitHub https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams > > I have already imported in the named streams in NSW except for the area > around Sydney. Mostly, again, due to laziness. As already pointed out > the data all needs to be sanity checked against what's on the ground and > that's really hard when it's under a city. > > The data is organised by AWRC catchment, so for Sydney you are looking at: > > https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II12.osm.gz > > which is the Hawkesbury River and > > https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II13.osm.gz > > which is Sydney Coast-Georges River > > You can use overpass turbo to see what is already mapped: > > https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpu (Hawkesbury River) > https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpv (Sydney Coast-Georges River) > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM
Josh (and talk-au list): My remarks certainly were not meant to be or seem like an attack, against you or anybody in particular. I apologize to you for my remarks: I did not mean to attack you and I am sorry it came across that way. It was a reply to Joseph Crowell's remarks (his "side note," really) that relations are "a nightmare to work with within iD and one of the main reasons people switch to another editor." I was concurring with Joseph and wanted to strengthen that with my added "positive" by suggesting another editor (JOSM), which I consider superior for editing relations (especially compared to iD). Using iD, I am comfortable editing only a tag or two on a relation, not memberships, as I find the latter both presented and manipulation of elements s very confusing, even as I recognize that using iD, this is "technically possible." However, as I edit many relations (often large ones, like long route=railway or route=bicycle+network=ncn routes), I have also seen many such relations "spoiled" by human editors using the software editor iD. I could be wrong here, but I attribute this to iD's particular (peculiar?) method of editing relation elements, and compare it to JOSM's, which I find very comfortable and intuitive: JOSM's relation editor is a "modeless" dialog window ([1], pioneered by macOS in the early 1980s and remaining to this day in many visually-oriented operating systems) that contains two "panes" of relation element memberships, buttons to manipulate these, the ability to select from the map and otherwise move elements between the map and the relation's elements, even a "sort" button (to properly align adjacent elements, like in route relations or multipolygons). Thank you for asking about JOSM and learning it: there distinctly IS a learning curve! Many people find the initial hurdle of installing a Java run-time environment a struggle, but this has been largely "double-click automated" for the most part for most popular operating systems. There is a YouTube video "JOSM Open Street Map Editor for Beginners" [2] but better (more comprehensive) is "Learn OSM's" own "course" on this: "Learn OSM step-by-step" [3] which is JOSM-oriented. Its section on Relations is pretty good, in my opinion. Recall [4] that there are MANY kinds of relations, like multipolygon, boundary, route, public_transport...and they are all different in their tagging, but they share the similarity of using the relation as a data type in OSM. OSM only has three data types: nodes, ways and relations, each of which can and should be tagged properly. Many (human) editors in OSM get "the basics" of editing nodes, ways and their tags for many common mapping tasks, reaching an elementary level (I hesitate to say "beginner") but relations are definitely an "intermediate" level of complexity by comparison, if not advanced for some people. The chosen editor really makes a difference at how facile one becomes with editing relations. I'm not looking to "critique" work in OSM, though if somebody does make a mistake, and then repeats it (or acts obtuse about learning correct methodologies) I will offer them some gentle coaching — if they'll take it. There are no n00b questions, only n00b answers. Please, feel free to ask me (via one-to-one email, if you like) if you have further questions: I have been told I am passionate, listening, enthusiastic and helpful in my responses about OSM (though very rarely, some friction causes a bit of heat, instead of light). I hope I have offered you worthy answers here. Steve All Santa Cruz, California, USA [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialog_box#Modeless [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yk8b8SB81o [3] https://learnosm.org/en/josm/start-josm/ [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Types_of_relation > On May 29, 2023, at 6:24 PM, Josh Marshall wrote: > > Hey stevea, was this warning on relations due to any particular remark in > this thread? ... I feel attacked! ;) given I've used iD to edit relations > quite a bit: I don't usually edit them, but more just adding new ones. Except > for re-adding ways when they got deleted from a route, when others changed > them. I also wouldn't dream of touching the coastline. :) I've always tried > to be very careful to not break anything, but now I'm concerned I've > inadvertently done that. (Username is `neomanic` if you want to critique my > work.) > > I realise this is a bit of a n00b question, but could you possibly provide > some pointers to the better _current_ documentation and resources on > understanding relations well and editing in JOSM? Now that OSM has been > around for a while, I find it overwhelming to sort through and figure out > what is current best practice, and so I've put off approaching learning more > with a structured approach. > > Thanks. > > On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 12:40, stevea wrote: > I've said all this before: while editing relations in
Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM
Hey stevea, was this warning on relations due to any particular remark in this thread? ... I feel attacked! ;) given I've used iD to edit relations quite a bit: I don't usually edit them, but more just adding new ones. Except for re-adding ways when they got deleted from a route, when others changed them. I also wouldn't dream of touching the coastline. :) I've always tried to be very careful to not break anything, but now I'm concerned I've inadvertently done that. (Username is `neomanic` if you want to critique my work.) I realise this is a bit of a n00b question, but could you possibly provide some pointers to the better _current_ documentation and resources on understanding relations well and editing in JOSM? Now that OSM has been around for a while, I find it overwhelming to sort through and figure out what is current best practice, and so I've put off approaching learning more with a structured approach. Thanks. On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 12:40, stevea wrote: > I've said all this before: while editing relations in iD is technically > possible, it is tedious and difficult in the opinion of many. A great many > existing relations have also been broken by people using iD (I can't count > how many I have personally experienced). I find editing relations with iD > to also be a "nightmare," but I don't want to so viciously disparage iD, > even as I do want to discourage others from using it as a reliable, > suitable, comfortable, intuitive relation editor. (It is not). > > That said, if you are going to edit relations (from this thread: streams, > waterways, coastlines, islands...but also many other more-sophisticated and > complex-structured data) within OSM, please do so using an editor that > strongly supports good relation editing. I use JOSM and recommend it, > though I realize that JOSM is not everybody's cup of tea, either. > > Think: if you know nodes, ways and tags, but not relations, yet you want > to edit data properly entered into OSM using relations (and which should > ONLY be entered into OSM using relations), you must be able to edit > relations. And do so well, without more than the occasional minor error. > OSM is not your sandbox for practice learning how to edit relations > (poorly), though you are likely to do exactly that (in my opinion) using > the iD editor to edit relations. The map does not benefit by sloppy > relations being entered by iD (or any editor). > > Learn the basics of OSM. Next, learn "about" relations (their structure, > conventions, the differing flavors of them...). THEN learn HOW to edit > relations using an editor that supports editing relations well, such as > JOSM. Though JOSM has a learning curve, it is worth it. I do not consider > iD to be a strong editor for relations, these are my opinions. Thank you > for reading. > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM
On 29/5/23 08:11, Joseph Crowell via Talk-au wrote: Regular area shapes have a node limit that is quickly reached when mapping rivers/lakes. As a guide: 2,000 nodes to a way, 300 members to a relation... Islands/islelets are also not properly cut out when they are created within a water body. The solution to both of these issues is creating a multipolygon with relations. On a side note, this is a nightmare to work with within iD and one of the main reasons people switch to another editor. Regards, Joseph Crowell *Software Development Manager**,* *Computerlink Logo*** ** *Unit 24 115 Dollis Street Rocklea Qld 4106. T: +61 7 3211 5662 | F: +61 7 3211 5663* */email: /**/_supp...@computerlink.com.au_/**//* *//* Disclaimer: The email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and may be subject to copyright. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this message in error please notify Computerlink Pty Ltd immediately by return email or by calling +61 7 3211 5662. The republication and re-dissemination are strictly prohibited without the express prior consent of Computerlink Pty Ltd. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Computerlink Pty Ltd except where an authorised sender specifically states them to be the views of Computerlink Pty Ltd. It is your responsibility to verify this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. Computerlink Pty Ltd accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted. On 26/05/2023 5:42 pm, Tom Brennan wrote: On 26/05/2023 1:54 pm, Josh Marshall wrote: > But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks; > go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for > instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section > for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area > was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some > monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood > and people complain about council not doing anyway… Just asking out of interest - what's the reason for using relations? Or is it specifically for the search that you mentioned? > Do note, the DCS map can be quite wrong in places… I’m pretty sure a > lot of it was done once and then never updated. Yes, I don't like the current DCS stream layer - streams going up and over ridges in some places! I understand that DCS is in the process of bringing the stream data up to date post the LIDAR scans of all of NSW. But it sounds like it is bogged down in some non-technical issues (ie nothing related to the actual dataset). So no idea when it will be released! I'd be interested if anyone knows anything definite about the data - my info is hearsay. cheers Tom Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au