Josh (and talk-au list): My remarks certainly were not meant to be or seem like an attack, against you or anybody in particular. I apologize to you for my remarks: I did not mean to attack you and I am sorry it came across that way. It was a reply to Joseph Crowell's remarks (his "side note," really) that relations are "a nightmare to work with within iD and one of the main reasons people switch to another editor." I was concurring with Joseph and wanted to strengthen that with my added "positive" by suggesting another editor (JOSM), which I consider superior for editing relations (especially compared to iD).
Using iD, I am comfortable editing only a tag or two on a relation, not memberships, as I find the latter both presented and manipulation of elements s very confusing, even as I recognize that using iD, this is "technically possible." However, as I edit many relations (often large ones, like long route=railway or route=bicycle+network=ncn routes), I have also seen many such relations "spoiled" by human editors using the software editor iD. I could be wrong here, but I attribute this to iD's particular (peculiar?) method of editing relation elements, and compare it to JOSM's, which I find very comfortable and intuitive: JOSM's relation editor is a "modeless" dialog window ([1], pioneered by macOS in the early 1980s and remaining to this day in many visually-oriented operating systems) that contains two "panes" of relation element memberships, buttons to manipulate these, the ability to select from the map and otherwise move elements between the map and the relation's elements, even a "sort" button (to properly align adjacent elements, like in route relations or multipolygons). Thank you for asking about JOSM and learning it: there distinctly IS a learning curve! Many people find the initial hurdle of installing a Java run-time environment a struggle, but this has been largely "double-click automated" for the most part for most popular operating systems. There is a YouTube video "JOSM Open Street Map Editor for Beginners" [2] but better (more comprehensive) is "Learn OSM's" own "course" on this: "Learn OSM step-by-step" [3] which is JOSM-oriented. Its section on Relations is pretty good, in my opinion. Recall [4] that there are MANY kinds of relations, like multipolygon, boundary, route, public_transport...and they are all different in their tagging, but they share the similarity of using the relation as a data type in OSM. OSM only has three data types: nodes, ways and relations, each of which can and should be tagged properly. Many (human) editors in OSM get "the basics" of editing nodes, ways and their tags for many common mapping tasks, reaching an elementary level (I hesitate to say "beginner") but relations are definitely an "intermediate" level of complexity by comparison, if not advanced for some people. The chosen editor really makes a difference at how facile one becomes with editing relations. I'm not looking to "critique" work in OSM, though if somebody does make a mistake, and then repeats it (or acts obtuse about learning correct methodologies) I will offer them some gentle coaching — if they'll take it. There are no n00b questions, only n00b answers. Please, feel free to ask me (via one-to-one email, if you like) if you have further questions: I have been told I am passionate, listening, enthusiastic and helpful in my responses about OSM (though very rarely, some friction causes a bit of heat, instead of light). I hope I have offered you worthy answers here. Steve All Santa Cruz, California, USA [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialog_box#Modeless [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yk8b8SB81o [3] https://learnosm.org/en/josm/start-josm/ [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Types_of_relation > On May 29, 2023, at 6:24 PM, Josh Marshall <josh.p.marsh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hey stevea, was this warning on relations due to any particular remark in > this thread? ... I feel attacked! ;) given I've used iD to edit relations > quite a bit: I don't usually edit them, but more just adding new ones. Except > for re-adding ways when they got deleted from a route, when others changed > them. I also wouldn't dream of touching the coastline. :) I've always tried > to be very careful to not break anything, but now I'm concerned I've > inadvertently done that. (Username is `neomanic` if you want to critique my > work.) > > I realise this is a bit of a n00b question, but could you possibly provide > some pointers to the better _current_ documentation and resources on > understanding relations well and editing in JOSM? Now that OSM has been > around for a while, I find it overwhelming to sort through and figure out > what is current best practice, and so I've put off approaching learning more > with a structured approach. > > Thanks. > > On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 12:40, stevea <stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > I've said all this before: while editing relations in iD is technically > possible, it is tedious and difficult in the opinion of many. A great many > existing relations have also been broken by people using iD (I can't count > how many I have personally experienced). I find editing relations with iD to > also be a "nightmare," but I don't want to so viciously disparage iD, even as > I do want to discourage others from using it as a reliable, suitable, > comfortable, intuitive relation editor. (It is not). > > That said, if you are going to edit relations (from this thread: streams, > waterways, coastlines, islands...but also many other more-sophisticated and > complex-structured data) within OSM, please do so using an editor that > strongly supports good relation editing. I use JOSM and recommend it, though > I realize that JOSM is not everybody's cup of tea, either. > > Think: if you know nodes, ways and tags, but not relations, yet you want to > edit data properly entered into OSM using relations (and which should ONLY be > entered into OSM using relations), you must be able to edit relations. And > do so well, without more than the occasional minor error. OSM is not your > sandbox for practice learning how to edit relations (poorly), though you are > likely to do exactly that (in my opinion) using the iD editor to edit > relations. The map does not benefit by sloppy relations being entered by iD > (or any editor). > > Learn the basics of OSM. Next, learn "about" relations (their structure, > conventions, the differing flavors of them...). THEN learn HOW to edit > relations using an editor that supports editing relations well, such as JOSM. > Though JOSM has a learning curve, it is worth it. I do not consider iD to > be a strong editor for relations, these are my opinions. Thank you for > reading. > _______________________________________________ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
