Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On 6/10/23 14:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Thanks Ian & Steve Looking at the numbers from a Qld perspective, I'd go inbetween the two samples! e.g. Hamlet <250 Village 250-1000 Town 1000-15000 City 15000< Which would produce https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1Bup It also becomes obvious that there are quite a few places with no population listed! OSM does not appear to have access to ABS data. Other than population signage on physical entry to the feature I don't think OSM has access to any other population data.. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
Thanks Ian & Steve Looking at the numbers from a Qld perspective, I'd go inbetween the two samples! e.g. Hamlet <250 Village 250-1000 Town 1000-15000 City 15000< Which would produce https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1Bup It also becomes obvious that there are quite a few places with no population listed! Thanks Graeme On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 12:35, stevea wrote: > Oops, resending to the talk-au list as a whole: > > > On Oct 5, 2023, at 7:00 PM, Little Maps wrote: > > City = > 50,000 people > > Town = 5000 - 50,000 > > Village = 1000 - 5000 > > Hamlet = < 1000 > > > > This kind of query gives a broad-brush pattern of how we can classify > places into cities, towns etc. If we can gain consensus on broad cutoffs, > we can then explore how services such as health and educational facilities > influence outcomes. > > A great OT query; thank you! > > In USA, and by no means do I mean to be culturally insensitive or seem > like I'm ramming anything down anybody's throat, we use some rough > guidelines at > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/Tags#Places which > overlap somewhat. That wiki, again, deliberately USA-specific (and still > emerging and getting fine-tuned as of 2023) says: > > City = > 50,000 people > > Town = 10,000 - 50,000, though some "incorporated municipalities" which > are smaller than 10,000 (such as the rare state capital which qualifies, > like Montpelier, Vermont, or other VERY significant "towns" with less than > 10,000 but they contain an important "cultural center" like a university, a > hospital or other "major amenity" will get place=town as well, this can > include "major shopping" or something like "the only big box (hardware, > variety...) store around for a long ways") > > Village = 200 - 10,000, though this is flexible (as of 2023), and it is > emerging as consensus that a village contains at least a small commercial > area such as a supermarket, a small market (even a convenience store), a > bank, a gas station (or two, you know, for price competition's sake!) and > perhaps a medical clinic and/or cluster of doctor / dentist / medical > offices. > > Hamlet < 200 people > > Isolated Dwelling = no more than two households / families. (Could be a > sheep / cattle station for you folks down under). > > Trying to help offer perspective, please, though, "you do you" (Aussies do > Aussies). > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
Oops, resending to the talk-au list as a whole: On Oct 5, 2023, at 7:00 PM, Little Maps wrote: > City = > 50,000 people > Town = 5000 - 50,000 > Village = 1000 - 5000 > Hamlet = < 1000 > > This kind of query gives a broad-brush pattern of how we can classify places > into cities, towns etc. If we can gain consensus on broad cutoffs, we can > then explore how services such as health and educational facilities influence > outcomes. A great OT query; thank you! In USA, and by no means do I mean to be culturally insensitive or seem like I'm ramming anything down anybody's throat, we use some rough guidelines at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/Tags#Places which overlap somewhat. That wiki, again, deliberately USA-specific (and still emerging and getting fine-tuned as of 2023) says: City = > 50,000 people Town = 10,000 - 50,000, though some "incorporated municipalities" which are smaller than 10,000 (such as the rare state capital which qualifies, like Montpelier, Vermont, or other VERY significant "towns" with less than 10,000 but they contain an important "cultural center" like a university, a hospital or other "major amenity" will get place=town as well, this can include "major shopping" or something like "the only big box (hardware, variety...) store around for a long ways") Village = 200 - 10,000, though this is flexible (as of 2023), and it is emerging as consensus that a village contains at least a small commercial area such as a supermarket, a small market (even a convenience store), a bank, a gas station (or two, you know, for price competition's sake!) and perhaps a medical clinic and/or cluster of doctor / dentist / medical offices. Hamlet < 200 people Isolated Dwelling = no more than two households / families. (Could be a sheep / cattle station for you folks down under). Trying to help offer perspective, please, though, "you do you" (Aussies do Aussies). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
Hi all, building on Andrew's great work, I've provided an Overpass query below that allows users to change population cutoffs to see how different values affect which places are categorised as cities, towns, villages and hamlets. https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1Bug (yep, that's the random link name, its not a bug!) I've used the following cut-offs in the query, as these align with how I view cities/towns etc in Vic and southern NSW (which I know best) but you can change the values to whatever you like to see how different values change how places are categorised. City = > 50,000 people Town = 5000 - 50,000 Village = 1000 - 5000 Hamlet = < 1000 This kind of query gives a broad-brush pattern of how we can classify places into cities, towns etc. If we can gain consensus on broad cutoffs, we can then explore how services such as health and educational facilities influence outcomes. The query only shows places that have 2021 ABS population data (most/all of which Andrew D has entered). Other places aren't shown. Andrew has described other limitations in earlier posts. For a simple way to explore how cutoffs will change the outcomes, Wikipedia provides lists of cities in each state, ranked by population: Aus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Australia_by_population Qld: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_Queensland_by_population NSW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_New_South_Wales_by_population Vic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_Victoria_by_population Tas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_Tasmania_by_population SA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_South_Australia_by_population WA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_Western_Australia_by_population Hope this is useful. Thanks again to everyone for a stimulating conversation. Cheers Ian On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 10:48 AM Little Maps wrote: > I agree with others that setting up a long list of services is probably > unworkable, and would prefer to focus on population cut offs as the key > criterion, with secondary, minor consideration to a very short list of key > services. However, can we focus on what the key cut offs are before we > discuss the fine details of scoring extra services? Once we’ve decided on > the population cut offs it could be relatively simple to use overpass > queries to see how often population cut offs address most of the service > issues anyway (because doctors etc tend to be in bigger centres) and how > often we have anomalies. Then we can work out scoring systems to address > the anomalies. Until we agree on broad population-based categories we can’t > move forward much imo. Thanks again Andrew for all your work and info, and > everyone else for input. Cheers Ian ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
I agree with others that setting up a long list of services is probably unworkable, and would prefer to focus on population cut offs as the key criterion, with secondary, minor consideration to a very short list of key services. However, can we focus on what the key cut offs are before we discuss the fine details of scoring extra services? Once we’ve decided on the population cut offs it could be relatively simple to use overpass queries to see how often population cut offs address most of the service issues anyway (because doctors etc tend to be in bigger centres) and how often we have anomalies. Then we can work out scoring systems to address the anomalies. Until we agree on broad population-based categories we can’t move forward much imo. Thanks again Andrew for all your work and info, and everyone else for input. Cheers Ian ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
Thanks Andrew. You are clearly well-informed on the availability and use of ABS data. Population size correlates fairly closely with the range and level of services that are available in a place. I support using population data to determine city/town/village/hamlet classification. On Fri, 6 Oct 2023, at 6:20 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote: > On 5/10/23 18:01, cleary wrote: >> the small central district? Or is it the much larger Tamworth LGA? I >> think it would include the suburbs but not the outlying >> towns/villages in the LGA. There are also city/suburbs such as "City >> of Ryde" which is the name of a local government area in the Sydney >> metropolitan area but the actuality is that, for all practical >> purposes, Ryde is a suburb of Sydney. > > The ABS has population stats at different geographical levels. For > Tamworth we have LGA: > > Tamworth Regional: 63,070 > > This would be the population you would put on the admin_level 6 > boundary. From the suburb and localities you get: > > Tamworth: 189 > > This would be the population that would go on the admin_level 9 > boundary. From the urban centres and localities you get: > > Tamworth: 35,415 > > This is the population of the settlement, which I have been adding to > the place node. The UCL is the ABS's attempt to answer the question > "what is the population of ?" > >> >> Leaving aside cities and suburbs, our discussion has mainly been >> about non-city rural areas. While there may be some fuzziness around >> the population of the business and residential districts of a >> settlement and whether the population in its surrounding areas should >> be counted, I would support population numbers as a reasonably >> objective and useful determinant of town/village/hamlet status. > > How to subdivide an urban settlement into subdivisions is another set of > problems. > > I would prefer a system based on just population, but I got the feeling > that we wouldn't get agreement on that, as we have mappers who want to > adjust. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On 5/10/23 18:01, cleary wrote: the small central district? Or is it the much larger Tamworth LGA? I think it would include the suburbs but not the outlying towns/villages in the LGA. There are also city/suburbs such as "City of Ryde" which is the name of a local government area in the Sydney metropolitan area but the actuality is that, for all practical purposes, Ryde is a suburb of Sydney. The ABS has population stats at different geographical levels. For Tamworth we have LGA: Tamworth Regional: 63,070 This would be the population you would put on the admin_level 6 boundary. From the suburb and localities you get: Tamworth: 189 This would be the population that would go on the admin_level 9 boundary. From the urban centres and localities you get: Tamworth: 35,415 This is the population of the settlement, which I have been adding to the place node. The UCL is the ABS's attempt to answer the question "what is the population of ?" Leaving aside cities and suburbs, our discussion has mainly been about non-city rural areas. While there may be some fuzziness around the population of the business and residential districts of a settlement and whether the population in its surrounding areas should be counted, I would support population numbers as a reasonably objective and useful determinant of town/village/hamlet status. How to subdivide an urban settlement into subdivisions is another set of problems. I would prefer a system based on just population, but I got the feeling that we wouldn't get agreement on that, as we have mappers who want to adjust. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
It seems to me that the presence and types of services correlate reasonably
closely with population, which is a verifiable number.
Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) statistical boundaries approximate but
are not exactly the same as state government suburb/locality boundaries but are
close enough. Prior to gaining permission to use administrative boundaries
data, OSM was using ABS boundaries as the best available data. I am presuming
we still have permission to use ABS data.
I can think of issues about cities and suburbs such as whether one counts
Sydney locality ("suburb boundary") which is just the central city area while
the City of Sydney LGA is larger again and the Sydney metro area is much
larger. There would be similar issues in other cities. Does Tamworth's
population include its suburbs or just the small central district? Or is it the
much larger Tamworth LGA? I think it would include the suburbs but not the
outlying towns/villages in the LGA. There are also city/suburbs such as "City
of Ryde" which is the name of a local government area in the Sydney
metropolitan area but the actuality is that, for all practical purposes, Ryde
is a suburb of Sydney.
Leaving aside cities and suburbs, our discussion has mainly been about non-city
rural areas. While there may be some fuzziness around the population of the
business and residential districts of a settlement and whether the population
in its surrounding areas should be counted, I would support population numbers
as a reasonably objective and useful determinant of town/village/hamlet status.
I will be pleased to have a consistent approach to classifying settlements,
whatever is agreed,
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, at 4:05 PM, Andrew Davidson wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:50 PM David Bannon wrote:
>> I'd wonder if we are building an impossible to manage rule set. For example,
>> many small town doctor's clinic only have a doctor there one or two days a
>> week. So, a full time doctor is worth 40 points, so, a one day a week one is
>> 8 points ? Many, many "towns" have a community hall (or even a Mechanic's
>> Institute) but very many of them have fallen into such disrepair its unsafe
>> to go in. And a Hospital, thats one with an Emergency
>
> Yeap, exactly. That's why I was suggesting only four classes of
> services and only their presence or not. That way you can check them
> with an Overpass query.
>
> If it's all too hard, then the obvious solution is to just make the
> definition of a village a settlement with a population greater than
> 200 and less than 1000.
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:50 PM David Bannon wrote: > I'd wonder if we are building an impossible to manage rule set. For example, > many small town doctor's clinic only have a doctor there one or two days a > week. So, a full time doctor is worth 40 points, so, a one day a week one is > 8 points ? Many, many "towns" have a community hall (or even a Mechanic's > Institute) but very many of them have fallen into such disrepair its unsafe > to go in. And a Hospital, thats one with an Emergency Yeap, exactly. That's why I was suggesting only four classes of services and only their presence or not. That way you can check them with an Overpass query. If it's all too hard, then the obvious solution is to just make the definition of a village a settlement with a population greater than 200 and less than 1000. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On 5/10/23 14:41, Warin wrote: Community hall, Police, Fire say 10 each Store, fuel, mechanic say 20 each Nurse medical facility, RFDS clinic say 30 Doctors say 40 Hospital say 100 I'd wonder if we are building an impossible to manage rule set. For example, many small town doctor's clinic only have a doctor there one or two days a week. So, a full time doctor is worth 40 points, so, a one day a week one is 8 points ? Many, many "towns" have a community hall (or even a Mechanic's Institute) but very many of them have fallen into such disrepair its unsafe to go in. And a Hospital, thats one with an Emergency Department or just a couple of beds and and a pair of overworked nurses ? How long since that Store was open ? A mechanic ? Well, the guy at the servo can help you change a tyre (but only if you have a real spare tyre, what are you doing out here with a temporary one anyway ?). My point is there are varying degrees of all these things, I am unsure too many mappers are willing or able to obtain the necessary detail. Davo ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On 5/10/23 14:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: So coming back to this ... I like the idea of adding "numbers" per extra facility :-) Calling each of them is worth 100, if a place has Police, Fire & Ambos, do they get +300 or just +100? & another "important" thing that I thought of - the community Hall, home of public meetings, dances etc! I don't think the facilities are all worth the same 'points'. But they should all add to the score. A hospital should be 'worth' more than a store... ??? I'd start with a sore of 10 and go up from there? Community hall, Police, Fire say 10 each Store, fuel, mechanic say 20 each Nurse medical facility, RFDS clinic say 30 Doctors say 40 Hospital say 100 Ambos tend to be 'attached' to hospitals/nurse medical centers so I'd not add them. Thanks Graeme On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 at 09:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 at 18:45, Andrew Davidson wrote: apply the Fitzpatrick adjustment: I like it! :-) Although Fizzie Fuzziness has a better ring to it :-) Talk more later - I'm just reverting stuff atm! Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
So coming back to this ... I like the idea of adding "numbers" per extra facility :-) Calling each of them is worth 100, if a place has Police, Fire & Ambos, do they get +300 or just +100? & another "important" thing that I thought of - the community Hall, home of public meetings, dances etc! Thanks Graeme On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 at 09:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 at 18:45, Andrew Davidson wrote: > >> apply the Fitzpatrick adjustment: >> > > I like it! :-) > > Although Fizzie Fuzziness has a better ring to it :-) > > Talk more later - I'm just reverting stuff atm! > > Thanks > > Graeme > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On 3/10/23 20:40, Warin wrote: The 'government/community services' might be ordered by there total numbers? PO (including local PO agents) Police Doctors (theses seam scarcer than Police?_ Hospitals OK, so there was a maths error in my example. I was suggesting that the population threshold for a village would be a function of the number of classes of services available. So: Number of classes present Population threshold 0 400 1 300 2 200 3 100 40 Underlying this is the assumption that there are enough dwellings to make it to an OSM settlement (3). You can add or remove classes and change the upper bound. It's all just a rule-of-thumb. The important thing being that it's documented somewhere and mapper can check it. Outliers? The Ilkurlka Roadhouse is on the Anne Beadell Highway. Next fuel .. east 771 km Coober Pedy or west 550 km Laverton. Population? 1? ... ~200 at Tjuntjuntjara. the nearest aboriginal community? So there are two classes of services available, the threshold is 200 people. If the population is 1 then it's not a village. According to the wiki article there is also a small outstation there, so there may be three dwellings, which would be a hamlet. Otherwise isolated dwellings. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On 3/10/23 19:41, Andrew Davidson wrote: On 2/10/23 21:53, Little Maps wrote: As I understand your message, we have and/or can get population data for a small proportion of places in Aus (probably with comprehensive data for most larger places and less data for the many smaller ones). There are two classes of problems: 1. Urban centres that have gown so much that they have coalesced with neighbouring urban centres. Some of these are easy to assign the population to a single place node (Gold Coast, Nowra - Bomaderry, Shepparton - Mooroopna). Others are not clear where you would put the population (Central Coast, Blue Mountains, Ocean Grove - Barwon Heads). There are about 90 of these out of 1800. 2. Settlements that are so small that the ABS doesn't consider them worthy of their own mesh block (the smallest geographic unit they report on). If a settlement doesn't rate a single residential mesh block I'd say it's not really a candidate for anything above hamlet. This means that, if we develop a guideline based primarily on population data we then have to develop a simple way to extrapolate the guidelines to places without pop data. Yes? If you can't get population data that kinda suggests it's either tiny or, grown so big that you have to start worrying about how to subdivide the urban area into suburbs etc. As a simple starting point, I’m curious whether it’s possible to first try to get agreement on general cut-offs for villages/towns/cities etc using only the places that have pop data (i.e. those you’ve mapped). We could present some different scenarios so that everyone could see the implications of different decisions for areas that they know. The ABS uses a threshold of 1000 people in an urban area to identify an urban centre. In OSM speak this would be a town or city. At the small end the old Natmap standard was not to show any settlements smaller than 200. Maybe that's the threshold for hamlet/village. Although I get the impression people would like to adjust that for the level of services available. Perhaps we could apply the Fitzpatrick adjustment: add on or take off 50 people for each one of the following is or isn't available: pub shop servo a government service (PO/Hospital/Police) So a settlement with pub, shop, servo, and school with a population of 4 would be a village. A rural residential development with no services and a population of 750 would be a hamlet. The cutoffs are going to be arbitrary. The important thing is to just choose some and make sure that there's some reasoning behind them. The 'government/community services' might be ordered by there total numbers? PO (including local PO agents) Police Doctors (theses seam scarcer than Police?_ Hospitals Outliers? The Ilkurlka Roadhouse is on the Anne Beadell Highway. Next fuel .. east 771 km Coober Pedy or west 550 km Laverton. Population? 1? ... ~200 at Tjuntjuntjara. the nearest aboriginal community? https://www.ilkurlka.org.au/ Possibly these kind of places only go on certain types of map .. Hemma does a good job with highlighting such places with fuel/store symbols ... and usually some contact details. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Classifying settlements (Was Re: Filling in blank space (Was Re: Tagging towns by relative importance, not just population size))
On 2/10/23 21:53, Little Maps wrote: As I understand your message, we have and/or can get population data for a small proportion of places in Aus (probably with comprehensive data for most larger places and less data for the many smaller ones). There are two classes of problems: 1. Urban centres that have gown so much that they have coalesced with neighbouring urban centres. Some of these are easy to assign the population to a single place node (Gold Coast, Nowra - Bomaderry, Shepparton - Mooroopna). Others are not clear where you would put the population (Central Coast, Blue Mountains, Ocean Grove - Barwon Heads). There are about 90 of these out of 1800. 2. Settlements that are so small that the ABS doesn't consider them worthy of their own mesh block (the smallest geographic unit they report on). If a settlement doesn't rate a single residential mesh block I'd say it's not really a candidate for anything above hamlet. This means that, if we develop a guideline based primarily on population data we then have to develop a simple way to extrapolate the guidelines to places without pop data. Yes? If you can't get population data that kinda suggests it's either tiny or, grown so big that you have to start worrying about how to subdivide the urban area into suburbs etc. As a simple starting point, I’m curious whether it’s possible to first try to get agreement on general cut-offs for villages/towns/cities etc using only the places that have pop data (i.e. those you’ve mapped). We could present some different scenarios so that everyone could see the implications of different decisions for areas that they know. The ABS uses a threshold of 1000 people in an urban area to identify an urban centre. In OSM speak this would be a town or city. At the small end the old Natmap standard was not to show any settlements smaller than 200. Maybe that's the threshold for hamlet/village. Although I get the impression people would like to adjust that for the level of services available. Perhaps we could apply the Fitzpatrick adjustment: add on or take off 50 people for each one of the following is or isn't available: pub shop servo a government service (PO/Hospital/Police) So a settlement with pub, shop, servo, and school with a population of 4 would be a village. A rural residential development with no services and a population of 750 would be a hamlet. The cutoffs are going to be arbitrary. The important thing is to just choose some and make sure that there's some reasoning behind them. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
