Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
On 23/10/20 3:38 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: You could also find (shock, horror!) that that tag has been used for rendering purposes. Or, even more shockingly, the tag has been used because they are nature reserves. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 12:25, Greg Lauer wrote: > It does seem that leisure=nature_reserve is common. > You could also find (shock, horror!) that that tag has been used for rendering purposes. & Steve, to not help matters at all :-) You also park your car in a car park! Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
Greg's description matches mine. Used for recreation, not conservation, usually just grass, maybe a few trees scattered, sometimes there could be a playground there, maybe benches, maybe bbqs, ie. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=park. National Parks, Marine Parks etc would be boundary=protected_area. Looking at your proposal Steve, I can see the gap you're trying to fill, an area with a single name but might have areas of natural=wood and leisure=park all forming the same grounds. I think Central Park, NYC is probably the best example because it's likely to be understood more globally, as far as I know it's a mix of forest areas, recreation areas, but still the whole area is known as Central Park. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
Thank you for a representative data sample, Greg! I find a couple / few things things interesting that shake out so far: > I will leave the nuances of tagging National parks and protected areas to > those much more experienced than me Most interesting, maybe even revealing: we shouldn’t need to be “more experienced” to tag all of our parks. Right now, in some countries, doing that for a lot of parks is, um, less than clear as it might be in those not speaking British, Australian or New Zealand dialects of English w.r.t. “park.” Namely, US English, possibly others. That does rise up as a bump on the fabric that lots of us (certainly in the USA) can feel as a bump. Smoothing out these bumps is a desirable goal, but elusive sometimes. Nuances exist on ‘park' in the real world, sure, can we capture these with tagging that isn’t “nuanced,” but crystal-clear? I think so, it’s harder in some places, this seems at least partly due to what you mention as a “well-understood (connection) between ‘park’ and ‘public land.’” We might agree that connection is frequent, and is understood to encompass lots of kinds of (public) land, but well-understood w.r.t. how to tag it in OSM seems it could use a bit of “improved or improving syntax construction," at least in some parts of the world (USA). We’ll get there. > It does seem that leisure=nature_reserve is common. This tag is another wrinkle (at least) if not bump in the fabric. In the US, we find this tagging (whether on a named "park" or more often on a named “preserve” or “reserve”) is sometimes correct, sometimes not. It is indicative some sharper focus could help achieve more accurate and harmonious tagging worldwide. These can be difficult topics when cultural and linguistic differences are sometimes less visible (but still there) and “calling them out” yields what looks like a large can of worms. We’re finding “pay attention to one worm at a time” helps, to the extent they can be isolated and wrangled. > So it seems there is reasonably consistency across the english speaking world > with regards to ‘Parks' Yet, there can be a propensity to “punt” on saying on those “in the middle” Parks (not leisure=park, not national park, nature_reserve maybe…) and that’s the range where more-precise, more-correct tagging can be elusive. This is quite educational, thank you again for your valuable “down under” perspective! SteveA ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
Hi Steve I will leave the nuances of tagging National parks and protected areas to those much more experienced than me (most of my tagging is roads and trails) but happy to illustrate some examples. It does seem that leisure=nature_reserve is common. 1. Great Sandy National Park - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1507019 which is tagged boundary=protected_area, leisure=nature_reserve and protection=National Park. I see there is some discussion on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=nature%20reserve?uselang=en on the use of boundary=national_park.. For National Parks this seems to be consistent (for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1506584 or https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7006909) 2. Jimna State Forest - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1506563 similar to above but protection_title=State Forest. Again this seems to be consistent across State Forests 3. Habitat Drive Park (my local park) - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5327709 tagged with leisure=park. Again this seems to be consistent with local parks. Looking at US examples - my favorite US 'Park' - Roosevelt National Forest https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/395767 and there is similar tagging. In NZ https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/10657056 or https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3659089 seem to be missing the protection_title=. South Africa - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/421549, Canada - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6365995 and UK - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/86909 are all similar So it seems there is reasonably consistency across the english speaking world with regards to 'Parks' G. On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:39 AM stevea wrote: > Hi Greg: I get that you’d tag a “place to take the dog on-leash while the > kids enjoy the playground” (if you live in an urban area and you can walk > there in five minutes). Yet, I wonder: specifically, how would you tag a > State or Commonwealth Park (in NZ or AU) in OSM? As leisure=park wouldn’t > be right, and boundary=national_park "might not" be right (except for a > truly “national park”), how are these “in between these two parks” > differently-tagged? With boundary=protected_area + protect_class=5? 6? > Otherwise? That’s the nut we find hard to crack in the states here. As > there are dozens of dialects of English where “park” means something > besides (or in between a spectrum between) “urban manicured space” and > “national park,” it seemed to make sense to probe around in AU and NZ to > see how US differs from GB/UK thinking that gave rise to the British > English that guides OSM tagging. > > Thanks, > Steve > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian, English?
On 23/10/2020 9:26 am, talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
Subject: Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian
English?
I would agree with Greg on this. I think a Park is a Natural or
Recreational area within a city or Town. They can also be National
Parks, but I think the vernacular is to use Park. Reserve is also fairly
common within City or Town boundaries, be it a Sports Reserve or a
Nature Reserve.
Outside of a City or Town, the use is more National Park, Reserve or
Wilderness Area.
There will be some blurring of terminology.
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Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
Not muddy at all, your clarifications are excellent. Much obliged, mate! SteveA On Oct 22, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Greg Lauer wrote: > Good question > > To be clear I am a Kiwi (New Zealand) who lives in Australia (and has spent > many years in the US) so my interpretation may be slightly muddled > > In general I consider a 'Park' to be a local area, generally managed by the > city or shire (county). Playgrounds, gardens, dog walking etc. Generally it > is for some form of recreation and/or green space in a city or urban area. > For example I would ask the kids to walk the dog in the park. > > In terms of county parks, state parks, etc we have slightly different > terminology. Part of this is related to a much smaller layer of government > and ownership (City/Shire, State, Commonwealth). We don't have the multitude > of Federal agencies (USFS, NPS, BLM etc) or layers of city, country, state, > federal government. In most cases 'National Parks' are managed by State > authorities (equivalent to State Parks in US parlance) , and several (IIRC) > National Parks managed by Commonwealth (Federal) Authorities (like NPS). > States Forests are managed by State Authorities (although some are > privatised). > > That said the use of 'park' to describe any public land is well understood in > AU. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
Good question To be clear I am a Kiwi (New Zealand) who lives in Australia (and has spent many years in the US) so my interpretation may be slightly muddled In general I consider a 'Park' to be a local area, generally managed by the city or shire (county). Playgrounds, gardens, dog walking etc. Generally it is for some form of recreation and/or green space in a city or urban area. For example I would ask the kids to walk the dog in the park. In terms of county parks, state parks, etc we have slightly different terminology. Part of this is related to a much smaller layer of government and ownership (City/Shire, State, Commonwealth). We don't have the multitude of Federal agencies (USFS, NPS, BLM etc) or layers of city, country, state, federal government. In most cases 'National Parks' are managed by State authorities (equivalent to State Parks in US parlance) , and several (IIRC) National Parks managed by Commonwealth (Federal) Authorities (like NPS). States Forests are managed by State Authorities (although some are privatised). That said the use of 'park' to describe any public land is well understood in AU. G. On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 9:33 AM stevea wrote: > Hi, it's stevea from California. Some of us in the USA are crafting a > proposal (https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Park_boundary), may > be two or three staged proposals, intended to better express the wide > inclusive semantic "we" (OSM-wide, but including US English-speakers) mean > for the word "park." In US English, this is "spoken of" (in vernacular) to > include county parks, state parks, all kinds of things we call parks. (And > OSM seems to have difficulty expressing around the world with consistent > tagging). Is this also how the word "park" is used in Australian English > vernacular? A likely answer might be "what we mean is not EXACTLY the same > as how you Yanks might mean it, here are some similarities and differences > from an Aussie perspective." > > I have taken a brief look at existing rendered data in OSM, though, > there's nothing like simply asking local people "how do you talk about > this?" > > Thank you. This might become a spirited discussion! > > Stevea (in our wiki) > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] How is the word "park" meant in Australian English?
Hi, it's stevea from California. Some of us in the USA are crafting a proposal (https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Park_boundary), may be two or three staged proposals, intended to better express the wide inclusive semantic "we" (OSM-wide, but including US English-speakers) mean for the word "park." In US English, this is "spoken of" (in vernacular) to include county parks, state parks, all kinds of things we call parks. (And OSM seems to have difficulty expressing around the world with consistent tagging). Is this also how the word "park" is used in Australian English vernacular? A likely answer might be "what we mean is not EXACTLY the same as how you Yanks might mean it, here are some similarities and differences from an Aussie perspective." I have taken a brief look at existing rendered data in OSM, though, there's nothing like simply asking local people "how do you talk about this?" Thank you. This might become a spirited discussion! Stevea (in our wiki) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
