Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
It looks like we've finished the NSW/Victoria border. There are probably a couple of bits I'll go back to and touch up, but otherwise looking good. So, what's next to complete the national/state borders? Ian. On 27 August 2012 18:10, Michael Krämer wrote: > 2012/8/27 Ian Sergeant >> >> The first real divergence I've come across is here, where the ABS >> border follows the northern anabranch, but it seems clear from AGRI >> that the southern watercourse is now the one with the most flow. I'd >> like to declare this land as part of NSW. >> >> >> http://agri.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=16&lat=-36.0233&lon=146.67105&layers=B00 > > > Sounds reasonable to me. > > In fact I also came across the first cut-offs over the weekend, an example > is [1]. But I found it rather difficult to decide for one state or the > other. According to [2] (page 2) the border does not necessarily change if > the river does: "The creation of a new channel after 1850 by sudden avulsion > will not alter the location of the state border. [...] The rule of gradual > and imperceptible erosion and accretion will apply." So I let Victoria win > there, even though I don't have any data from 1850 available > > Best regards, > Michael > -- > [1] > http://agri.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=15&lat=-34.66479&lon=142.50166&layers=B00 > [2] > http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/104377/NSW-VIC_Border_Determination.pdf ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Ok - I have put the VIC/TAS border back to the correct latitude and "moved" Boundary Islet down to straddle it. Since I have no way of knowing where the border is, in relation to the island, I have given Victoria four times as much of it as Tasmania (in relation to their relative areas). I'm hoping now, that some Tasmanian OSMer will disagree with this and organise a mapping party out on the rock to find exactly where the Islet is and how much each state gets. We could send out another boat from Melbourne and meet there. If it is not possible/allowable to land, we would need to find out a way to accurately map the island from the sea. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] import of state borders?
2012/8/27 Nick Hocking > Interestingly OSM renderiings still don't have the slightly improved > outline of the original "Boundary Islet" that I edited in four days ago. > This is all very strange, I'm not sure what to do since I can't easily get > out there with a GPS unit. > This is due to the fact that the process for updating the coastline is quite different from any other change. Bascially changes to coastline typically take weeks to render on the map. Michael ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Leon wrote "Was looking at Victoria/Tasmania border and I have a feeling it's not quite right in OSM." Hi Leon, Yes, embarrasingly I've put the border on the wrong Island. In my defence - the 39.2 latitude passess about 160 metres south of Boundary Islet according to both Bing and Google imagery. Wiki even states the Latitude as 39 11' 55" instead of the correct 39 12' in order to make the border cross the land. All the imageries must be wrong. I've just moved the border on to the correct Island which is now mapped but it is still in the wrong position. Interestingly OSM renderiings still don't have the slightly improved outline of the original "Boundary Islet" that I edited in four days ago. This is all very strange, I'm not sure what to do since I can't easily get out there with a GPS unit. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Hi Nick, Was looking at Victoria/Tasmania border and I have a feeling it's not quite right in OSM. According to several sources, Boundary Islet is north east of Hogan Island, not north. OSM doesn't seem to have it traced at all yet. OSM: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-39.2245&lon=146.9982&zoom=13&layers=M Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_Islet http://www.ga.gov.au/education/geoscience-basics/dimensions/state-territory-borders.html (refers to North East Islet being renamed Boundary Islet) http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/States-divided-between-Diemen-and-deep-blue-sea/2005/01/19/1106110810527.html On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Nick Hocking wrote: > OK - I've just completed the arduous task of reinstating the complete > Victoria/Tasmania border! > > Also I'll check out the S.A Victoria border to see if it conforms with the > disputed area. > > > Nick > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
2012/8/27 Ian Sergeant > The first real divergence I've come across is here, where the ABS > border follows the northern anabranch, but it seems clear from AGRI > that the southern watercourse is now the one with the most flow. I'd > like to declare this land as part of NSW. > > > http://agri.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=16&lat=-36.0233&lon=146.67105&layers=B00 > Sounds reasonable to me. In fact I also came across the first cut-offs over the weekend, an example is [1]. But I found it rather difficult to decide for one state or the other. According to [2] (page 2) the border does not necessarily change if the river does: "The creation of a new channel after 1850 by sudden avulsion will not alter the location of the state border. [...] The rule of gradual and imperceptible erosion and accretion will apply." So I let Victoria win there, even though I don't have any data from 1850 available Best regards, Michael -- [1] http://agri.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=15&lat=-34.66479&lon=142.50166&layers=B00 [2] http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/104377/NSW-VIC_Border_Determination.pdf ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
The Victorian/NSW border is still growing. The ABS data does seem a reasonable fit, but overall AGRI/Bing seems more accurate to me. The first real divergence I've come across is here, where the ABS border follows the northern anabranch, but it seems clear from AGRI that the southern watercourse is now the one with the most flow. I'd like to declare this land as part of NSW. http://agri.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=16&lat=-36.0233&lon=146.67105&layers=B00 Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
John wrote "the border follows this fence-line (at least in the vicinity of the gate):" Thanks John I've moved the border closer to the gate, keeping the gate in NSW and the trail in ACT. The border looks a bit crooked to me now, I'll have to do some more work on it in a couple of weekends time. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
On 24/08/12 21:24, Nick Hocking wrote: One spot where my GPS traces don't indicate the border is on the extension to Hugh Mackay Crescent. John, does your information of this area (Bicentennial Natiuonal Trail) indicate where the border is? I deleted all my GPS data from that area. Way back then, I didn't foresee any need to keep it, as I do these days. But my clear recollection from many trips to that area is that this gate http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/258492338/history is exactly on the border. And that the border follows this fence-line (at least in the vicinity of the gate): http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/69891320/history Likely the final position I gave the gate was quite accurate. I mapped that area on bicycle and tend to use the averaging feature on my Garmin for 30 seconds or so to refine the position of nodes like gates. John ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Michael wrote "OK, I have just imported the missing parts of the ACT border (changeset #12765494)." Looks good Michael, I have moved some points on the straight bit using information from some of my GPS traces. One spot where my GPS traces don't indicate the border is on the extension to Hugh Mackay Crescent. John, does your information of this area (Bicentennial Natiuonal Trail) indicate where the border is? BTW I'm doing a mapping run down to Melbourne this weekend, is there any (small) thing anyone wants checked out on the way (back). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
OK - I've just completed the arduous task of reinstating the complete Victoria/Tasmania border! Also I'll check out the S.A Victoria border to see if it conforms with the disputed area. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Hi Michael, Great. So I'll keep winding down the Murray. Can you import the crooked NSW/QLD part from ABS, and then we'll be done? Ian. On 22 August 2012 16:52, Michael Krämer wrote: > 2012/8/22 Ian Sergeant >> >> The Murray boundaries (from the east) are now half way to Lake Hume. >> I notice that someone is making a start form the South Australian end >> too. > > That was me - I did some of the low hanging fruit by using already the > existing riverbank to create the boundary. > > Michael (user Ohr) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
2012/8/22 Ian Sergeant > The Murray boundaries (from the east) are now half way to Lake Hume. > I notice that someone is making a start form the South Australian end > too. > That was me - I did some of the low hanging fruit by using already the existing riverbank to create the boundary. Michael (user Ohr) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
The Murray boundaries (from the east) are now half way to Lake Hume. I notice that someone is making a start form the South Australian end too. Lots of highways around this area that are unmapped or partially unmapped. I've been fixme/incomplete tagging on the way through, and connecting a road here and there. If someone is familiar with the area, there is work to be done here. Ian. On 20 August 2012 12:52, Ian Sergeant wrote: > On 17 August 2012 17:43, Michael Krämer wrote: > >> Unfortunately the river is currently only defined by a single way. So this >> would require manual tracing the southern bank from aerial images. And I >> guess the legal definition of the bank for the border is probably different >> from OSM's definition for the riverbank. > > I don't think there is a substantial difference between the OSM > riverbank definition and the legal definition. > > I've made a start, and the first hundred kms or so of the river now > has a riverbank and an OSM line in the sand against those pesky > mexicans. > > So far, the aerial imagery appears well aligned and suitable. > > Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
On 17 August 2012 17:43, Michael Krämer wrote: > Unfortunately the river is currently only defined by a single way. So this > would require manual tracing the southern bank from aerial images. And I > guess the legal definition of the bank for the border is probably different > from OSM's definition for the riverbank. I don't think there is a substantial difference between the OSM riverbank definition and the legal definition. I've made a start, and the first hundred kms or so of the river now has a riverbank and an OSM line in the sand against those pesky mexicans. So far, the aerial imagery appears well aligned and suitable. Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Am 17.08.2012 09:43, schrieb Michael Krämer: Given Nick's comments (assuming I've understood them correctly), lets start this approach with the ACT, and Nick can apply his tweaks post-import. Ok, I'll run the conversion and manually import the ACT data. Expect some results over the weekend. OK, I have just imported the missing parts of the ACT border (changeset #12765494). Here some details: - the easter border from the souternmost corner to the Monlonglo River north of Queanbeyan had already been present - there had been a border around Kowen Forest with "source=ABS_2006; Federal electoral boundary GIS data" but much coarser compared to the new data. The existing nodes coincided with nodes of the new data. So I have considered the new data as an improvement and added them. - Some of the segment from above had been part of relations for districts so I also updated these relations as appropriate - first I assumed that Jervis Bay is part of the ACT. I just noticed that it's an territory on it's own and added an separate relation later - the seaward border of Jervis Bay didn't match the coastline in OSM so I dropped it completely. I think the seward borders should be covered together with the national border anyway. Now some of the existing areas for National Parks etc. don't accurately match the border although they probably shold (e.g. [1]). In general again I found the new data to show more detail than what had been present. Michael --- [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-35.6402&lon=148.7784&zoom=14&layers=M ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Hi Ian, 2012/8/17 Ian Sergeant > Given Nick's comments (assuming I've understood them correctly), lets > start this approach with the ACT, and Nick can apply his tweaks > post-import. > Ok, I'll run the conversion and manually import the ACT data. Expect some results over the weekend. > Last time I looked parts of the Murray River border NSW/Vic were > missing, and we should probably reconstruct these from the river > itself, seeing that (the southern bank) is the border defined. > Unfortunately the river is currently only defined by a single way. So this would require manual tracing the southern bank from aerial images. And I guess the legal definition of the bank for the border is probably different from OSM's definition for the riverbank. What other non-straight parts are we missing? > I think only the eastern part of the QLD-NSW border. By the way, I think the entire national border of Australia is also gone. But let's do one step after another... Michael ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Hi, Given Nick's comments (assuming I've understood them correctly), lets start this approach with the ACT, and Nick can apply his tweaks post-import. Last time I looked parts of the Murray River border NSW/Vic were missing, and we should probably reconstruct these from the river itself, seeing that (the southern bank) is the border defined. What other non-straight parts are we missing? Ian. On 15 August 2012 06:01, Michael Krämer wrote: > Hi, > > first of all a quick introduction: I'm one of those armchair mappers trying > to assist in cleaning up the mess after the redation bot. > > When doing so I've noticed that most of the state and territory borders are > gone. I could already reconstruct the straight parts from remaining segments > and nodes. But the non-straight parts are still missing, so there isn't much > left of ACT at the moment, for example. > > Looking for a source for these I came across the data from the Australian > Bureau of Statistics which are ODbL-compliant according to [1]. Available is > are shapefiles for the electoral boundaries [2] and to my understanding > these had previously been used for the state boundaries. > > So I would suggest to import the missing parts of the boundaries from these > datasets again. This wouldn't be an automatic import but include manually > combining the data with what's already there. > > Any thoughts? > > Best, >Michael (user Ohr) > > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data > [2] > http://data.gov.au/dataset/commonwealth-electoral-boundaries-archive-2009/ > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Ok, I'll try to summarize and comment the feedback: The ABS datasets are probably not first choice in terms of accuracy. In lack of a better alternative this would lead to the question whether to use what's available or leave the borders missing. I think this decision should be made by the Australian community. By the way, I compared the datasets directly with what's in the map today. For existing borders of National Parks etc. they seem to be identical - this would at least give consistency. Another point is to make sure not to delete manually surveyed data. This shouldn't be a problem as I would not delete anything at all. I'm not considering a bulk import but more a selective import to close the gaps. The reason for using datasets from data.gov.au basically them being ODbL-compliant according to [1]. But this should also allow the use of the most recent dataset for the electoral boundaries [2]. Michael -- [1] http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2011/09/24/odbl-data-gov-au-permission-granted/ [2] http://data.gov.au/638 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
Michael wrote "When doing so I've noticed that most of the state and territory borders are gone. I could already reconstruct the straight parts from remaining segments and nodes." Hi Michael, Years ago I surveyed some points on the Black Allen line for OSM (NSW VIC border). At that time the border on OSM was about 100 yards wrong due to OSM using straight lines between two points rather than a segment of a great circle. I corrected these points but since then I think that someone replaced my work with imported ABS data which was in incorrect positions has since been redacted anyway. The straigh lines there now are pretty good but in places are about 30 metres off. I'll use my original GPS traces to tweak a few of the points and if necessary I'll resurvey the other points. Similarly, I surveyed a few points of the straight ACT border. When a new version of this border comes back, I'll recheck it and tweak as necessary. Cheers (and thanks for your efforts) Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
On 15/08/12 06:01, Michael Krämer wrote: > Hi, > > first of all a quick introduction: I'm one of those armchair mappers > trying to assist in cleaning up the mess after the redation bot. > > When doing so I've noticed that most of the state and territory borders > are gone. I could already reconstruct the straight parts from remaining > segments and nodes. But the non-straight parts are still missing, so > there isn't much left of ACT at the moment, for example. > > Looking for a source for these I came across the data from the > Australian Bureau of Statistics which are ODbL-compliant according to > [1]. Available is are shapefiles for the electoral boundaries [2] and to > my understanding these had previously been used for the state boundaries. > > So I would suggest to import the missing parts of the boundaries from > these datasets again. This wouldn't be an automatic import but include > manually combining the data with what's already there. > > Any thoughts? > [2] > http://data.gov.au/dataset/commonwealth-electoral-boundaries-archive-2009/ No comment on the import, but I wouldn't use the Electoral boundaries to derive any kind of state boundary. Also since data.gov.au just pulls the data from the various different government agencies, I would suggest getting it straight from the source. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1270.0.55.001July%202011?OpenDocument You would want the last one listed: State (S/T) ASGS Ed 2011 Digital Boundaries in ESRI Shapefile Format. Note the copyright for this http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/Home/%C2%A9+Copyright?opendocument#from-banner=GB Various other different admin levels are also at http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1270.0.55.003July 2011?OpenDocument Beware though, that these are not the official state boundaries, or other admin boundaries. They only represent an ABS approximation of the official boundary with the aim of generating statistics on these areas. For most purposes they are good enough representation of the actual boundary for us, especially in lure of a better source, and without any on the ground mapping. I hope this has provided some insight. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] import of state borders?
On 15 August 2012 06:01, Michael Krämer wrote: > first of all a quick introduction: I'm one of those armchair mappers trying > to assist in cleaning up the mess after the redation bot. Welcome. > When doing so I've noticed that most of the state and territory borders are > gone. I could already reconstruct the straight parts from remaining segments > and nodes. But the non-straight parts are still missing, so there isn't much > left of ACT at the moment, for example. Some work has been put in by some OSMers in the past getting accurate border information, not always from the ABS data. There were borders in OSM prior to any ABS import, which are likely clean and could also be used as an alternative if we can dig them out of a full history file! Does anybody have better recall of this than me? Is there any harm in importing for now, and doing any fixes/replacement required later? Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] import of state borders?
Hi, first of all a quick introduction: I'm one of those armchair mappers trying to assist in cleaning up the mess after the redation bot. When doing so I've noticed that most of the state and territory borders are gone. I could already reconstruct the straight parts from remaining segments and nodes. But the non-straight parts are still missing, so there isn't much left of ACT at the moment, for example. Looking for a source for these I came across the data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics which are ODbL-compliant according to [1]. Available is are shapefiles for the electoral boundaries [2] and to my understanding these had previously been used for the state boundaries. So I would suggest to import the missing parts of the boundaries from these datasets again. This wouldn't be an automatic import but include manually combining the data with what's already there. Any thoughts? Best, Michael (user Ohr) [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data [2] http://data.gov.au/dataset/commonwealth-electoral-boundaries-archive-2009/ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
