Re: [Talk-GB] "Lines of Trees" along river banks etc.

2013-08-29 Thread OpenStreetmap HADW 
On 28 August 2013 23:15, Dudley Ibbett  wrote:
>
> This would perhaps suggest they should be marked as ways with barrier=hedge
> and hedge=line_of_trees or perhaps just the latter.
>
> An alternative might be to use natural=tree_row which is defined in the wiki
> but the examples seem more to related to trees that have been planted at
> regular intervals and where there isn't generally an overlap in the canopy.
> I have used this a few times but I'm not convinced it is the right way to
> tag this feature given that it seems they are a type of hedgerow.
>

This sort of micro-woodland feature is a case where it would be nice
if Mapnik supported the proposed landcover key.  I found a whole
forest growing in the central reservation of a short section of dual
carriageway, but had to leave it that way as it no longer rendered
when converted to landcover (in most areas, people wouldn't have
bothered to try to make it render, but  since someone had done so,
they would reasonably object if it stopped rendering.

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Re: [Talk-GB] "Lines of Trees" along river banks etc.

2013-08-29 Thread sk53.osm 
The entire landcover tag discussion on the wiki is a huge distraction,and
not based on any objective criteria, let alone an attempt to see if what we
have works.

I, on the other hand, gave a paper at SotM-Eu in 2011 which showed that use
of existing tags could provide a level of land-use/land-cover mapping
comparable to the European Environment Agency's Urban Atlas. The slides are
here . I
think there are enough details in the methodology for anyone to replicate
this for other places. Unfortunately a lot of Europe has imported Corine
data and therefore it is not possible to assess the practicability of OSM
as a general source for land-use/land-cover.

Furthermore the main dataset I used, Nottingham, was based on a snapshot so
that I was not tempted to add tags to correct. I actually ran the data for
several european cities, and for two square degrees of the UK. The main
problem in matching OSM to Urban Atlas was not tagging, but the absence of
mapping of landuse. Other discrepancies were due to change in landuse in
the timeframe since the UA data had been compiled, and faulty
interpretation in the UA data set (faculty buildings at Nottingham
University classed as residential, for instance).

Whereas there are some issues with landuse tags, they will not be fixed by
inventing another category which will be beset by the same problems over
time. It's much better to try and persuade people that things like
landuse=grass for farmland pasture is a bad idea.

Jerry

PS. Can I just echo what Richard said in a recent e-mail: you are taking
the wiki far too seriously. It really is a curates egg.


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 8:25 AM, OpenStreetmap HADW wrote:

> On 28 August 2013 23:15, Dudley Ibbett  wrote:
> >
> > This would perhaps suggest they should be marked as ways with
> barrier=hedge
> > and hedge=line_of_trees or perhaps just the latter.
> >
> > An alternative might be to use natural=tree_row which is defined in the
> wiki
> > but the examples seem more to related to trees that have been planted at
> > regular intervals and where there isn't generally an overlap in the
> canopy.
> > I have used this a few times but I'm not convinced it is the right way to
> > tag this feature given that it seems they are a type of hedgerow.
> >
>
> This sort of micro-woodland feature is a case where it would be nice
> if Mapnik supported the proposed landcover key.  I found a whole
> forest growing in the central reservation of a short section of dual
> carriageway, but had to leave it that way as it no longer rendered
> when converted to landcover (in most areas, people wouldn't have
> bothered to try to make it render, but  since someone had done so,
> they would reasonably object if it stopped rendering.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] HS2 mapping

2013-08-29 Thread Barry Cornelius 

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013, Peter Miller wrote:
Thanks for that. Is there any chance that this ROW information can be 
added to OSM? Possibly I am missing something, but it seems to be adding 
complexity to have to fish around in another database for this 
information.


Although I rarely contribute to OSM, I lurk on this list.  It is my 
understanding from being on this list is that it is not as easy as bulk 
adding the information to OSM as the data provided by a council can be 
out-of-date and it is necessary to check whether the data agrees with 
what's on the ground.  There are also licensing issues.


My aim was to draw people's attention to a source that might make it 
easier for people to find out what is missing from OSM.


--
Barry Cornelius
http://www.northeastraces.com/
http://www.thehs2.com/
http://www.rowmaps.com/
http://www.oxonpaths.com/
http://www.barrycornelius.com/


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Re: [Talk-GB] SOTM 2013 - Final programme and end of "mates rates"

2013-08-29 Thread Sam Larsen 
Rob,

This only seems to load if you are signed into Google.  I try my best not to be 
signed in these days ;)  You might want to look into that.

Sam



>
> From: Rob Nickerson 
>To: OpenStreetMap ; Talk-GB 
> 
>Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2013, 23:52
>Subject: [Talk-GB] SOTM 2013 - Final programme and end of "mates rates"
> 
>
>
>Hi All,
>
>
>== SOTM Final Programme ==
>After a lot of hard work and many long hours the final programme for State of 
>the Map 2013 is now available to view at 
>http://2013.stateofthemap.org/info/programme/
>
>This will also be copied over to Lanyrd in the coming days and the preceding 
>text updated on the page above to provide a link.
>
>== Mates Rates tickets ==
>Due to high demand we are getting close to being full. As such, we will be 
>closing the "mates rates" discounted tickets at 12 noon BST this Friday. Be 
>quick if you want to get the cheaper entry rates!
>
>Looking forward to seeing many of you at State of the Map 2013,
>Rob
>
>stateofthemap.org
>
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> 

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Re: [Talk-GB] "Lines of Trees" along river banks etc.

2013-08-29 Thread Dudley Ibbett 
Many thanks for the information.  I'm afraid my knowledge of the detail you 
provide is quite limited.  I'll stick to natural=row_of_trees.  As you suggest 
it is likely to require the way to be marked on both sides.  I hadn't thought 
about using scrub on a way.  For some reason the JOSM preset is restricted to 
an area but it seems you can directly tag a way as scrub.

Regards

Dudley

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 06:30:23 +0100
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] "Lines of Trees" along river banks etc.
From: sk53@gmail.com
To: dudleyibb...@hotmail.com
CC: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org

I don't think these are hedgerows at all. They are really relict river gallery 
woodland (usually Salicion albae, NVC W6) and I would expect are mainly Willows 
with the odd Poplar and Alder.


A photo example (and a location) might help.

Typical components along the Trent (Notts & Derbys) and Thames (Berks & Bucks)  
will be: 
planted trees, usually hybrid Poplar and White Willow, but some real oddities
Crack Willow and Alder as standard trees
pollarded trees, mainly Crack Willowshrubby trees, predominantly Osier and Grey 
Willow, but some Almond & Purple Willow
occasionally dense scrub with Hawthorn and Elder
The willows nearly always are self-set. Any willow twig broken off in a flood 
is capable of regenerating (for Crack Willow and Native Black Poplar this is 
the usual means of propagation), provided there is enough moisture. This means 
that river banks are naturally always getting new additions, and that clearance 
of willow scrub is a never ending task. However, the zone where this happens is 
quite narrow, depending of height of flood waters and maintaining the relevant 
moisture levels.


I don't know much about palatability of willows to livestock, but suspect they 
are not very tasty. When fields have grazing next to a river, usually cattle 
will have made a few gaps to get at the water, but my impression is that they 
don't graze on willows, although sheep probably do.

It may be useful to show that a water body is tree-lined. I personally use 
tree_lined=yes on tree-lined roads (more as a place holder), but there is also 
natural=row_of_trees. You might want left and right. For the scrub willow 
thickets I think natural=scrub is the right tag, even if you choose to put it 
on a way (these will be NVC W1-W3, with W1 being the commonest).

Regards,
Jerry



On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Dudley Ibbett  
wrote:




Hi

I was wondering if anyone has been mapping these?   Quite often I come across 
streams and rivers where there are dense lines of trees along the river banks.  
Occasional I find lines of trees which seem to be remnant hedgerows where the 
shrubs have been removed.


Looking on line it would seem that these are a hedgerow type.  

http://www.hedgelink.org.uk/images/bap/key%20to%20hedgerow%20types%20bigger.jpg


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69285/pb11951-hedgerow-survey-handbook-070314.pdf


This would perhaps suggest they should be marked as ways with barrier=hedge and 
hedge=line_of_trees or perhaps just the latter.

An alternative might be to use natural=tree_row which is defined in the wiki 
but the examples seem more to related to trees that have been planted at 
regular intervals and where there isn't generally an overlap in the canopy.  I 
have used this a few times but I'm not convinced it is the right way to tag 
this feature given that it seems they are a type of hedgerow.


This may be something for the tagging email group but these a quite common 
features in the UK so I thought it would be good to ask here first.

Many Thanks

Dudley




 
  

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Re: [Talk-GB] SOTM 2013 - Final programme and end of "mates rates"

2013-08-29 Thread Rob Nickerson 
Hmm, that's odd as I seem to see it fine with and without my google
account. Anyone else able to confirm this for me please?

The programme will be making it's way onto Lanyrd soon so you should be
able to view it there. Lanyrd has a great website designed for mobile
devices (and a dedicated app) so this will be ideal for conference
delegates wanting to check the schedule.

Regards,
Rob


On 29 August 2013 18:36, Sam Larsen  wrote:

> Rob,
>
> This only seems to load if you are signed into Google.  I try my best not
> to be signed in these days ;)  You might want to look into that.
>
> Sam
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] SOTM 2013 - Final programme and end of "mates rates"

2013-08-29 Thread Gregory 
Confirmed the programme worked on:
Linux: Chrome (incognito mode so logged out) and Firefox.

The box does flicker with some message ("loading Google Drive" I think)
first though.

It looks like Friday's schedule has been added to Lanyrd already, check
back in another day or two and the guys might have got added the rest of
the schedule added. http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/


On 29 August 2013 23:17, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> Hmm, that's odd as I seem to see it fine with and without my google
> account. Anyone else able to confirm this for me please?
>
> The programme will be making it's way onto Lanyrd soon so you should be
> able to view it there. Lanyrd has a great website designed for mobile
> devices (and a dedicated app) so this will be ideal for conference
> delegates wanting to check the schedule.
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
>
> On 29 August 2013 18:36, Sam Larsen  wrote:
>
>> Rob,
>>
>> This only seems to load if you are signed into Google.  I try my best not
>> to be signed in these days ;)  You might want to look into that.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
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-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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