Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Stuart Reynolds]

I have to say that this is all getting rather intense. We are talking about one 
chain of shops! And clearly we aren't going to get an agreement on 
standardisation.

To be honest I've never quite understood the obsession with mapping individual 
shops. Fine if it is done everywhere, but it isn't. Shops come and go, and if I 
was to do this in Southend High Street I'd have to walk up it on a weekly basis 
at present to capture all the changes. Frankly, I've got better things to do 
given many missing crossings, footpaths, cycle ways etc that would really 
enhance the data.

As I read about a million messages ago, the user of the data can find Brantano, 
or Coral, or whatever, in all its various forms by processing the data. I've 
found three different ways of mapping bus lanes so far, which to me is more 
important than one chain of shops. But we live with it, and code it up so that 
we account for it rather than proposing to change everything wholesale to 
identical schemas.

Any chance we can just move on from this?

Regards
Stuart

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 Nov 2014, at 07:21, Colin Smale 
mailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl>> wrote:


I'm glad you say you agree Lester, but to me, the words "common default name" 
imply some level of consensus, not the subjective opinion of an individual 
mapper. I see issues here which we should not conflate; on the contrary, we 
should address them in order, as they form a hierarchy.

Firstly, should there be (as I contend) some objective consensus-based 
normalised value for "names"

Secondly, how does the community work out what that value should be

Thirdly, (how) do we backfit that value into existing data

Fourthly, (how) do we encourage the use consensus value in preference to what 
"Joe Mapper" might think

As compliance with "rule 4" cannot be ensured, we can apply "rule 3" 
periodically to tidy things up.

There are people who object to "rule 1", "rule 2" seems to be a war of 
attrition. The arguments about "rule 3" are polarised into "camps", and "rule 
4" is at the whim of tool developers who decide what "assistance" to offer 
based on their personal preferences and the feelings of the day.

We live in a free society, and OSM is possibly more free than most. But even in 
a free society, there need to be rules and limits to safeguard the good of the 
society as a whole. Let us not act out a certain novel which comes to mind, but 
have a shared idea of what "data quality" means and find the right balance of 
measures to work together towards that.

C.



On 2014-11-04 23:54, Lester Caine wrote:

On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote:

Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as 
the wiki puts it, the "common default name."

Totally Agree Colin ...
The name tag should not be subjected to a 'mechanical edit' to change
what has been entered by a local mapper, so please vote against this
proposal on principle.

The 'discussion' on Brantano Footwear is a particular element of that
edit which would change what IS on the local signs, "because the second
line is simple is description of the shop", which is what I'm objecting to.

No problem with the other 'documentary' tags, it's just the name tag
which is contentious here.


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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Ed Loach]

> So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of
> the name, rather than a description of the products they sell?

How about their "about" page?
http://www.brantano.co.uk/en-gb/desktop/about-us
"Brantano Footwear was established in the UK in 1998"

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Andy Robinson]

And just to add further confusion into the mix the UK Ltd company is registered 
at companies house as "BRANTANO (UK) LIMITED"

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Ed Loach [mailto:edlo...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 05 November 2014 08:55
To: 'Matthijs Melissen'; 'Talk GB'
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

> So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of 
> the name, rather than a description of the products they sell?

How about their "about" page?
http://www.brantano.co.uk/en-gb/desktop/about-us
"Brantano Footwear was established in the UK in 1998"

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed, 2014-11-05 at 08:32 +, Stuart Reynolds wrote:
> I have to say that this is all getting rather intense. We are talking
> about one chain of shops! And clearly we aren't going to get an
> agreement on standardisation.

We aren't, and to be honest the data consumer can post process whether
we spell LIDL as Lidl or LiDL.

To be honest I am more concerned about potential tag merging that will
probably come next.

> 
> 
> To be honest I've never quite understood the obsession with mapping
> individual shops. Fine if it is done everywhere, but it isn't. Shops
> come and go, and if I was to do this in Southend High Street I'd have
> to walk up it on a weekly basis at present to capture all the changes.
> Frankly, I've got better things to do given many missing crossings,
> footpaths, cycle ways etc that would really enhance the data.
> 
Mapping small shops is probably of limited use, but I do try to remove
the bias of what I do map and sometimes the only way is to map
everything. As a community dominated by male geeks we do tend to add
POIs in the order of pubs, take aways, food shops, petrol stations.

That said pubs are a traditional landmark in the UK and have been used
to give directions since long before OSM. In the modern world
supermarkets are becoming equally important navigation points. It is
certainly important to add these, and they are useful to be able to
search when in a strange area. I am unlikely to want to find Brantano,
but many a time I have needed to find Tesco/Asda when away from home.

> 
> As I read about a million messages ago, the user of the data can find
> Brantano, or Coral, or whatever, in all its various forms by
> processing the data. I've found three different ways of mapping bus
> lanes so far, which to me is more important than one chain of shops.
> But we live with it, and code it up so that we account for it rather
> than proposing to change everything wholesale to identical schemas.
> 
> 
> Any chance we can just move on from this? 
> 
We perhaps should, but the nature of this thread is alien to the way we
generally do things. Votes/polls or mechanical edits are going to
generate debate and strong feelings.

We should at least put this on the backburner for the near future, it is
after all SOTM time and many community members are away.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Brian Prangle]

At last!  A grain of ground truth. Map what you can see +1 to that

On 4 November 2014 22:17, Chris Hill  wrote:

> On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote:
>
>>
>> Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or,
>> as the wiki puts it, the "common default name." There are other tags for
>> enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands,
>> operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be "correct"
>> in their own way. What goes in the basic "name" tag should be what "most
>> people" would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how "most people"
>> would write it. IMHO "most people" would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and
>> only trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who
>> would write any answer in all capitals anyway).
>>
>> C.
>>
>>
>>  I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag
> ASDA as ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their
> website, their advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm
> not a trademark junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right.
>
> --
> Cheers, Chris
> user: chillly
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Stuart Reynolds]

> Mapping small shops is probably of limited use, but I do try to remove
> the bias of what I do map and sometimes the only way is to map 
> everything. As a community dominated by male geeks we do tend to 
> add POIs in the order of pubs, take aways, food shops, petrol stations.

> That said pubs are a traditional landmark in the UK and have been used 
> to give directions since long before OSM. In the modern world 
> supermarkets are becoming equally important navigation points. It is 
> certainly important to add these, and they are useful to be able to search 
> when in a strange area. I am unlikely to want to find Brantano, but many
> a time I have needed to find Tesco/Asda when away from home.

Phil, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that people shouldn't many ANY shops, 
and clearly doing so adds a richness to the mapping layer so long as you can 
avoid map clutter. There are definitely categories of navigation milestones 
that people look for, and in addition to pubs & supermarkets that would also 
include Post Offices, petrol stations... I'm sure we can think of others. 
Rather, my point was more that people were getting hung up on (as I see it) 
minutiae when there are other things to address.

Regards,
Stuart
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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Lester Caine]

On 05/11/14 08:32, Stuart Reynolds wrote:
> I have to say that this is all getting rather intense. We are talking
> about one chain of shops! And clearly we aren't going to get an
> agreement on standardisation.

The 'one chain of shops' has perhaps masked my objection to the general
process. There has always been a 'gentleman’s understanding' that what
was used as the 'name' was what appears on the ground? Other facets of
that such as translations, branding, and the like are based on
documentation rather than 'fact' on the ground, and only a ground survey
can show that - for example - every 'Brantano Footwear' shop does indeed
have that on it's sign. co-op and co-operative are another area where a
blanket edit is not appropriate. While you may well be able to identify
all the shops operated by 'x' from a list of their stores, and add that
as an 'operator', where branding has changed over the years, some stores
may still be in an older livery, and in my book even the capitalization
is important in that!

Flag them for checking - yes - change them without any reference to the
site - no.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 2 November 2014 13:24, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:
> Because I think
> it is important to act as carefully as possible when executing
> automatic edits, I have stopped the voting, and will bring this
> proposal back to the discussion phase.

Thank you all for your input.

From the discussion, it appears that there are diverging opinions on
the use of capitals in Aldi, Spar, Lidl, and Asda. I therefore think
that it is not appropriate to carry out an automatic edit at this
point, and I have removed these shops from the proposal.

The same holds for Brantano Footwear. It seems the company is not
consistent in the way they call themselves, so an automatic edit is
not applicable. The same holds for Maplin Electronics versus Maplin,
B&M Bargains versus B&M, Carphone Warehouse versus The Carphone
Warehouse, Cotsworld Outdoor versus Cotsworld, and Three versus 3. All
of them I have removed from the proposal as well.

Could you please have a look at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names
if there are any other changes that need removing or changing?

If not, I will open up a poll again to see if the proposal has
sufficient support.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[SomeoneElse]

On 05/11/2014 17:24, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Could you please have a look at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names
if there are any other changes that need removing or changing?



"Wilkinson" we know are in a process of rebranding to "Wilko"; so I 
might be tempted there to add notes to ask if a particular shop has been 
rebranded yet.  Just changing "Wilkinsons" to "Wilkinson" might suggest 
that you know that a particular shop was "Wilkinson" on a certain date, 
which isn't the case.


"Thompson" is also a very common name; I'd be wary of changing those 
without a local survey.


"Phones 4u" shops I'd expect would need resurvey due to the administration.

I'd be very careful with "Majestic" to avoid e.g. curry houses.

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names

[David Woolley]

On 05/11/14 08:32, Stuart Reynolds wrote:


To be honest I've never quite understood the obsession with mapping
individual shops. Fine if it is done everywhere, but it isn't. Shops
come and go, and if I was to do this in Southend High Street I'd have to
walk up it on a weekly basis at present to capture all the changes.
Frankly, I've got better things to do given many missing crossings,
footpaths, cycle ways etc that would really enhance the data.



That's close to my view, although I think you an get away with a three 
monthly survey.  Not that that makes much difference as I reckon the 
current rate will just about map every shop in 40 to 50 years!


The other thing is that it seems to be concentrating on the big brands, 
which means that people are being over-influenced by their marketing 
efforts.   Moreover, there is little need for data collection on big 
brands, as anyone who needs it can easily obtain information on all 
their store locations, and they have the resources to maintain 
electronic maps if they think it is useful to their business.


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