Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
Some people take the position that you cannot add a name ... unless you can actually see that name clearly being used as the name of the object if you actually visit the place. You can of course take matters into your own hands with a felt-tip pen. A C-number, once marked in very small text on the bottom corner of a road sign, is indisputably visible on the ground. :) Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 17:58, webmas...@killyfole.org.uk wrote: What do you define as on the ground? The road is there, it has a classification and name set by the local authority. Hence setting the ref= and name= tags. Some people take the position that you cannot add a name, foreign language name, or unless you can actually see that name clearly being used as the name of the object if you actually visit the place. I take a looser position, that the name or reference must be verifiable by an average mapper (that might be for example if 90% of locals give the name if asked, as well as if it appears in some open licensed database. A strict on the grounder, wouldn't for example accept a post code, unless the full postal address was displayed on the building. However, in the case in question a road can still pass the strict on the ground test but have the reference not appearing for someone approaching from a particular direction, because the reference is really being used to label the turn, or the exit lane, in the case of a router. I get this a lot with urban public rights of way. They will have the reference at one end, but not the other, so can be on the ground labelled with the reference, but it would still not be helpful to tell a pedestrian to turn right onto PROW 666. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On Saturday, 4 August 2018 10:56:19 IST Dave F wrote: > > In my particular area I have people "helicopting in" to remove the C and U > > numbers off the roads, just because they don't like the way it renders! > > But the fact is that none of the rural roads have signs giving the name, > > so just because my local council can't agree on putting up signs on the > > road I live on, it shouldn't have a name on OSM? > > The 'refs' are numerical numbers not the name. They aren't being removed > from the database. The general belief is if they're not signed on the > ground they shouldn't be rendered on the 'standard' map. > > It should be noted 'your' area does not have an air exclusion zone. > > DaveF And what I'm saying is that the names are also not signed on the ground. So in this case,are you saying these also shouldn't be rendered on the "standard" map either? No, my area doesn't have an air exclusion zone, but I personally have put in considerable time and effort gathering the data to add into the database, and I don't appreciate it being removed by people who have absolutely no understanding of the situation "on the ground" here in Fermanagh. I have also put a lot of effort into convincing local businesses and organisations to use OSM based on having the very features this thread proposes to remove! The information has also helped prevent tourists/cyclists from getting lost in the area due to the lack of signposts. A map with clearly marked C roads allows better route planning and also an indication of the road conditions likely to be encountered. In general a C road indicates a road wide enough for two vehicles to pass by (mostly), compared to an unclassified road which are narrow, overgrown and basically should only be used for local access only. Ok, let me give you an example of the lack of roadsigns here, this is a local crossroads. All roads here have reference numbers and names. Apologies for using Streetview, I am only using it to show you what is actually on the ground. All OSM data in the area was sourced by survey, local study, Bing or out-of-copyright maps obtained via OSMIE. https://goo.gl/maps/7amxE7w17Fq So I hear a urgent traffic update on the radio that there was a forest fire on the C425 Eshnadarragh Road and that the Fire Service have closed the road due to the pumping equipment needed to fight the fire. Unfortunately, this is also the road I planned on taking to get to my B I'm staying at. Using the signposts seen "on the ground", which road is closed? This is the area on OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/54.29138/-7.27969 Now there are lots of ways around this road closure, but the most logical one would be via an unclassified road. But due to other road users also taking this U road, it would be an absolute nightmare if you kept meeting people on this type of road. You want to easily plot an alternative route, using C or better roads. Here is an example of how local media give the data - http:// www.impartialreporter.com/news/14181974.Fermanagh_Flooding__Road_Closures/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On Saturday, 4 August 2018 14:48:56 IST Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Killyfole and District Development Association wrote: > > Surely we map for what is there on the ground, not how it renders? > > Right. C road numbers are not on the ground. (With the exception of the 20 > or so listed here: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/photo/c-roads .) What do you define as on the ground? The road is there, it has a classification and name set by the local authority. Hence setting the ref= and name= tags. In County Fermanagh, none of the rural roads have signs like they do in other parts of the UK. So you are basically saying that because the names aren't on a sign, they shouldn't have name tags in OSM? How do you suggest they are tagged then? All the local media use the road reference numbers when talking about diversions and road closures. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
Dave F wrote: > However this task was never undertaken. I decided to grab the bull by the > horns. Bravo! Killyfole and District Development Association wrote: > Surely we map for what is there on the ground, not how it renders? Right. C road numbers are not on the ground. (With the exception of the 20 or so listed here: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/photo/c-roads .) David Woolley wrote: > Even if that is not true, the correct solution would be to test > the reference in the renderer and suppress it if within the UK. No it wouldn't. First, C road refs break the on-the-ground rule as per above. Second, "don't [mis]tag for the renderer" does not mean "make things gratuitously difficult for the renderer". I think there's precisely one international OSM renderer in the world that has different rendering rules for the UK compared to other countries, and it's the one I run, cycle.travel. (Mapquest Open used to in its previous incarnation.) If you think renderers are going to implement a whole host of country-specific rules because people in the UK are determined to misuse the user-facing 'ref' tag to hold non-user-facing refs, I have a bridge to sell you. This is long overdue. Thank you, Dave. Richard -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Great-Britain-f5372682.html ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 20:06, Andy Townsend wrote: "Public right of way references, along with stiles and kissing gates, are for example rendered on Andy Townsend's specialist walking map." That already has an idea about "unsigned names and refs" and at some point I'll add various unsigned road refs in brackets like PROW refs and other combinations (like waterway locks). On the "there shouldn't be a standard map" question I'm aware of people who think that the "standard" OSM rendering is OSM Carto, the Cycle layer, Facebook, MAPS.ME among others. One of the things I like about OSMand is that you can select the way in which the map renders .. to a degree. It does give the feeling that you can have some influence over the map that you see and use. (Now if I could just remember to keep the thing upto date!) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
"Public right of way references, along with stiles and kissing gates, are for example rendered on Andy Townsend's specialist walking map." That already has an idea about "unsigned names and refs" and at some point I'll add various unsigned road refs in brackets like PROW refs and other combinations (like waterway locks). On the "there shouldn't be a standard map" question I'm aware of people who think that the "standard" OSM rendering is OSM Carto, the Cycle layer, Facebook, MAPS.ME among others. Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
Hi On 04/08/2018 03:03, webmas...@killyfole.org.uk wrote: I don't understand the logic of doing this? Surely we map for what is there on the ground, not how it renders? The vast majority of 'C roads aren't signed on the ground. There's a feeling that those that are maybe old signs & when upgraded won't have the ref. If a road has a reference number or a name, surely it is up to the render if it should show that information or not, not how we tag it in the database? True. Amalgamating all the variations of C refs to one unique tag provides an easy solution for the renderer to make that decision. In my particular area I have people "helicopting in" to remove the C and U numbers off the roads, just because they don't like the way it renders! But the fact is that none of the rural roads have signs giving the name, so just because my local council can't agree on putting up signs on the road I live on, it shouldn't have a name on OSM? The 'refs' are numerical numbers not the name. They aren't being removed from the database. The general belief is if they're not signed on the ground they shouldn't be rendered on the 'standard' map. It should be noted 'your' area does not have an air exclusion zone. DaveF ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/2018 09:55, David Woolley wrote: On 04/08/18 00:47, Dave F wrote: After many discussions over the years about the referencing of 'C' class roads there appeared to be a general consensus to keep them in the database but provide a unique tag to allow them not to be rendered. I assume you mean the reference is not rendered rather than the road. Yes. Note the frequent use of the word 'reference'. It seems to me that, in the UK, class C roads should be exactly the set of roads with highway=tertiary, so there is no need for a new tag. By design or error (of either the highway authority or OSM mappers) that is, unfortunately, not the case. I've provided Overpass queries for contributors to check & verify these anomalies. Even if that is not true, the correct solution would be to test the reference in the renderer and suppress it if within the UK. Collecting them into a unifying tag makes it easier for them to decide how they want to do it. DaveF ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 10:31, Lester Caine wrote: 'display_ref=no' would be appropriate in some areas of the world As I hinted in a previous response, this is an attribute of the junction, not the road. Moreover, it is probably a directed attribute, so actually relates to a turn relation. Also, display_ref is imperative. OSM attributes should be declarative, so I think you would want something closer to ref:signed=false. In practice though, anyone adding C references in the UK is, to some extent, armchair mapping, so I don't think you can rely on this reflecting the on the ground situation in most cases, so I still thin the renderer need to apply the rule: If in the UK and ref:visible not present for the intended turn, assume ref:signed no if the destination reference begins C, otherwise yes. However, turn right in 100m may be safer for all minor turnings (road names don't get replaced when damaged, even for residential roads). ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 10:07, Philip Barnes wrote: It seems to me that, in the UK, class C roads should be exactly the set of roads with highway=tertiary, so there is no need for a new tag. Even if that is not true, the correct solution would be to test the reference in the renderer and suppress it if within the UK. That really is not a pratical solution, OSM is an Internaional project and the standatrd renderer is International. It is unreasonable to expect the hard working rendering team to support country specific rendering. As I said previously, if you want to see C road references rendered, make your own renderer. Not many countries seem to have 'highway=tertiary' but those that do expect them to be rendered, and any reference they use should be rendered with them? This is not simply a 'UK' question, but one on how generic 'ref' tags are handled, and as I said ... 'highway=secondary' references can suffer from the same problem of not actually being displayed on the ground. So how the renderers handle this element is a world wide problem, and perhaps 'display_ref=no' would be appropriate in some areas of the world? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 10:07, Philip Barnes wrote: the standatrd renderer is International There should not be a standard renderer. That would definitely encourage tagging for the (that) renderer. The map needs to describe what is actually there. It has always been up to individual renderers to interpret that in ways most useful to their end users. In particular, the default Mapnik rendering, on the OSM web site is not a standard rendering, it is a rendering intended primarily for mappers, not car drivers, and secondarily a technology demonstrator. Incidentally, I believe there is a trend towards not signing roads, as satellite navigators remove the need. Also, trying to spot a road reference on a sign seems to me to be something that distracts from safe driving. The routers should probably simply be referring to distance and side of the turning. If you want to use signage, people should be mapping the exact wording on the signage as an attribute of the junction or the sign, rather than of the road. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 10:02, David Woolley wrote: On 04/08/18 07:01, Philip Barnes wrote: The renderer cannot know not to render refs on C roads in the UK, remember osm is an international database. Telling a driver to turn left onto the C666 is confusing if there is no sign to back up that instruction. Routing type renderers need to know that a road is in the UK and handle it accordingly, because a lot of tagging has to be interpreted in the context of national legislation. And it would be nice if they also respected the national speed limits! Osmand needs every 'max speed' to get it to display 60 or 70 as appropriate :( And I WILL get around to adding a UK rendering of road colours sometime ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
Are you offering to create a map with this level of special cases for every country in the world? I’d love to see the result. -- Andrew From: David Woolley Sent: 04 August 2018 09:55 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references. On 04/08/18 00:47, Dave F wrote: > > After many discussions over the years about the referencing of 'C' class > roads there appeared to be a general consensus to keep them in the > database but provide a unique tag to allow them not to be rendered. I assume you mean the reference is not rendered rather than the road. It seems to me that, in the UK, class C roads should be exactly the set of roads with highway=tertiary, so there is no need for a new tag. Even if that is not true, the correct solution would be to test the reference in the renderer and suppress it if within the UK. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/2018 09:55, David Woolley wrote: On 04/08/18 00:47, Dave F wrote: After many discussions over the years about the referencing of 'C' class roads there appeared to be a general consensus to keep them in the database but provide a unique tag to allow them not to be rendered. I assume you mean the reference is not rendered rather than the road. It seems to me that, in the UK, class C roads should be exactly the set of roads with highway=tertiary, so there is no need for a new tag. Even if that is not true, the correct solution would be to test the reference in the renderer and suppress it if within the UK. That really is not a pratical solution, OSM is an Internaional project and the standatrd renderer is International. It is unreasonable to expect the hard working rendering team to support country specific rendering. As I said previously, if you want to see C road references rendered, make your own renderer. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 07:01, Philip Barnes wrote: If you want to produce a render to display these admin references then you are welcome to do so. We ideally need a proper UK rendering of data and this is another area where information IDEALLY needs to be selectable. Trying to make a single world wide rendering of the data is always going to fail given the volume of material that is now country specific. The 'C' and other paper references need to be attached to relevant way and it's somewhat academic how as I can give you many examples where the 'B' references are similarly not actually displayed on the ground! Should they be tagged using some 'hide' tag? 'ref' is the correct tag for the way's reference number ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 07:01, Philip Barnes wrote: The renderer cannot know not to render refs on C roads in the UK, remember osm is an international database. Telling a driver to turn left onto the C666 is confusing if there is no sign to back up that instruction. Routing type renderers need to know that a road is in the UK and handle it accordingly, because a lot of tagging has to be interpreted in the context of national legislation. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 04/08/18 00:47, Dave F wrote: After many discussions over the years about the referencing of 'C' class roads there appeared to be a general consensus to keep them in the database but provide a unique tag to allow them not to be rendered. I assume you mean the reference is not rendered rather than the road. It seems to me that, in the UK, class C roads should be exactly the set of roads with highway=tertiary, so there is no need for a new tag. Even if that is not true, the correct solution would be to test the reference in the renderer and suppress it if within the UK. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.
On 4 August 2018 04:03:13 CEST, "webmas...@killyfole.org.uk"
wrote:
>I don't understand the logic of doing this?
>
>Surely we map for what is there on the ground, not how it renders? If
>a road
>has a reference number or a name, surely it is up to the render if it
>should
>show that information or not, not how we tag it in the database?
But for a render to know if it is a signed reference we need to tell the
renderer that and the way we do that is to use a different tag.
The renderer cannot know not to render refs on C roads in the UK, remember osm
is an international database.
Telling a driver to turn left onto the C666 is confusing if there is no sign to
back up that instruction.
C references are only used by local authorities, whilst it is possible to find
them I have never seen them in an OSM compatible form. They are certainly not
used by local people, other than a few people interested in such things. Rather
like public right of way references.
If you want to produce a render to display these admin references then you are
welcome to do so.
Public right of way references, along with stiles and kissing gates, are for
example rendered on Andy Townsend's specialist walking map.
Phil (trigpoint)
>
>In my particular area I have people "helicopting in" to remove the C
>and U
>numbers off the roads, just because they don't like the way it renders!
> But
>the fact is that none of the rural roads have signs giving the name, so
>just
>because my local council can't agree on putting up signs on the road I
>live
>on, it shouldn't have a name on OSM?
>
>Again in my area this is the reason OpenStreetMap is gaining a lot of
>ground
>compared to other maps, because it shows the road names and reference
>numbers
>which are useful for locals and people trying to find their way around.
> For
>example, the local media will give a list of road names and reference
>numbers
>during times of flood to indicate what roads locals should avoid.
>There are
>no other comparable maps which show this information, only OSM and a
>lot of
>people now use OSM because of that.
>
>Just because a local authority doesn't signpost something, does not
>mean it
>doesn't exist or isn't useful to local people.
>
>Just my two cents on the this, and I would very strongly object to this
>being
>carried out in County Fermanagh.
>
>KDDA
>
>
>
>
>On Saturday, 4 August 2018 00:47:20 IST Dave F wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> After many discussions over the years about the referencing of 'C'
>class
>> roads there appeared to be a general consensus to keep them in the
>> database but provide a unique tag to allow them not to be rendered.
>>
>> This is a list of the discussions (there maybe others):
>>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-May/011632.html
>>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-March/014555.html
>>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-April/014788.html
>>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-August/016392.html
>>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-May/017390.html
>>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-May/017414.html
>>
>> However this task was never undertaken. I decided to grab the bull by
>> the horns.
>>
>> I used variations of this Overpass query within JOSM to find the
>> numerous 'C' refs keys (listed below) tagged to the different road
>> classification.
>> I uploaded in batches split by geography &/or tag values to make it
>> easier for me to verify
>> I used detailed changeset descriptions to make it easier to rectify
>if
>> needed. If you spot any errors please let me know.
>>
>> [maxsize:2073741824];
>> area(id:3600058447,3600058437,3600058446); // England, Wales,
>Scotland
>> //[bbox:{{bbox}}];
>>way[highway=*highway classification"][~ref~"^C[0-9]{1,4}$"]
>(area);
>> //out tags;
>> //out center;
>> (._;>;); out meta;
>>
>> *Various keys used for 'C' refs:
>> (listed most popular down)
>> * ref
>> official_ref
>> admin_ref
>> admin:ref
>> wcc_ref
>> highway_ref
>> designation
>> offical_ref
>> int_ref
>> unsigned_ref
>> reference
>> local_ref
>>
>> *Highway classes with 'C' refs:*
>> **(listed most popular down)**
>> tertiary (+_link)
>> unclassified
>> trunk (+_link)
>> residential (error?)
>> service (error?)
>> pedestrian (error? Roads converted to pedestrian, but still
>classified?)
>> track (error/prow_ref?)
>> secondary (+_link)
>> primary
>>
>> I've amended them to *'highway_authority_ref*'. It was discussed in
>the
>> May '15 thread where it was felt official_ref or admin_ref wasn't
>> specific enough. Feel free to discuss here if you have strong
>objections
>> to it. If there's a consensus to change it's quite easy now they're
>all
>> under a single tag.
>>
>> Note I didn't include Northern Ireland as I'm unsure whether they're
>> signed on the ground or not. Is anyone able to verify?
>>
>> These are the trunk, primary & secondary roads which previously
