Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 06:55 +0200, Marc Gemis wrote:
> Can I apply this reasoning to English names for Belgian towns as
> well ?
> Where can I verify that the English name for Antwerpen is
> Antwerp ? What is the source of this data? Under which license was
> that made available ?
> How can someone who's local to Antwerp actually verify that the name
> that you've added is correct?
> 
I must admit I agree with you, we know because we know. Although I guess
thats expected as Belgium and the UK are neighbours with a history of
travelling between the countries. 

There are too many translated names, many European cities have English
names I was not aware of. I tripped over reading a news article today
which mentioned Wuerzberg, it took a few seconds to work out it was
referring to Würzburg. If I was writing that article it wouldn't have
occurred to me to look up an English spelling. Wuerzberg, may be closer
to to the pronunciation, not sure, I can cope with umlauts.

Modified spelling do not help however, most people are far more likely
to encounter the word Würzburg on a motorway sign or a railway departure
board than are likely to want to say it, its far easier to gloss over
the umlaut than have a strange spelling that doesn't appear on the
signposts.

Although the Belgians did confuse me once, driving through Belgium
towards Lille, the signs suddenly changed to Rijsel for no apparent
reason.

Phil (trigpoint)







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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Derick Rethans]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2014, SomeoneElse wrote:

> On 04/08/2014 16:15, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>
> > Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found 
> > that SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 
> > 20757217 with a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian 
> > "translations" including ones for which there's nothing on the 
> > ground". This is the list of cities I plan to modify: 
> > http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
> 
> I notice that you've now decided to upload this changeset adding 
> Ukrainian "names" for places:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/24588556
> 
> Taking for example Nottingham:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/24913081
> 
> What is the source of this data?
> 
> Under what licence was it made available?
> 
> How can someone who's local to Nottingham actually verify that the 
> name that you've added is correct?
> 
> For the record it looks like a simple "soundalike translation" of 
> Nottingham from one alphabet to another, rather than a unique name at 
> all.

It looks like it perhaps, just like "Londen" (used in Dutch) is a 
"soundalike translation" from its English counterpart. And you'd 
certainly not find "Londen" on any sign in London to verify this 
*correct* Dutch name for it. But it's certainly correct that London has 
name:nl = Londen.

cheers,
Derick

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

2014-08-11 1:31 GMT+03:00 SomeoneElse :

> Taking for example Nottingham:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/24913081
> What is the source of this data?
>
Common knowledge.


> How can someone who's local to Nottingham actually verify that the name
> that you've added is correct?
>
Visit Ukrainian Catholic Church in Nottingham
, ask anyone to confirm that
Ноттінгем is correct spelling.
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Marc Gemis]

Can I apply this reasoning to English names for Belgian towns as well ?
Where can I verify that the English name for Antwerpen is Antwerp ? What is
the source of this data? Under which license was that made available ?
How can someone who's local to Antwerp actually verify that the name that
you've added is correct?

Just wondering :-)

regards

m


On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 12:31 AM, SomeoneElse 
wrote:

> On 04/08/2014 16:15, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>
>> Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found that
>> SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 20757217 with
>> a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian "translations" including ones
>> for which there's nothing on the ground".
>> This is the list of cities I plan to modify:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
>>
>
> I notice that you've now decided to upload this changeset adding Ukrainian
> "names" for places:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/24588556
>
> Taking for example Nottingham:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/24913081
>
> What is the source of this data?
>
> Under what licence was it made available?
>
> How can someone who's local to Nottingham actually verify that the name
> that you've added is correct?
>
> For the record it looks like a simple "soundalike translation" of
> Nottingham from one alphabet to another, rather than a unique name at all.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Archer]

Single words have no copyright [1]. If he didn't copy it from any database
which is affected by the database right [2] it's ok to add them to OSM.

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Obtaining_and_enforcing_copyright
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_generis_database_right

Under what licence was it made available?
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SomeoneElse]

On 04/08/2014 16:15, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found 
that SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 
20757217 with a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian 
"translations" including ones for which there's nothing on the ground".
This is the list of cities I plan to modify: 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF


I notice that you've now decided to upload this changeset adding 
Ukrainian "names" for places:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/24588556

Taking for example Nottingham:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/24913081

What is the source of this data?

Under what licence was it made available?

How can someone who's local to Nottingham actually verify that the name 
that you've added is correct?


For the record it looks like a simple "soundalike translation" of 
Nottingham from one alphabet to another, rather than a unique name at all.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SomeoneElse]

On 05/08/2014 07:58, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use 
single service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).


Personally, I'd argue that OSM isn't a "service" so much as a "large 
lump of data".  It has "services", but these are designed for mappers 
rather than for general use.  You can, of course, create your own 
services based on OSM data (and many people do).


OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't 
like someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.


OSM actually has a more general problem with names.  For example, 
various people have (with the best of intentions) tried to fill in 
"names" where in reality there are none.


For example, this road:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/143924826/history

doesn't have a name (as far as the highway authority is concerned). A 
previous mapper thought that it ought to have a name, and came up with 
"Doveridge Bypass".  Following discussion on talk-gb, other local users 
of the road came forward and said that they didn't believe that it had a 
name either.


It's important that anything added to OSM is verifiable by other 
on-the-ground mappers (and is either from on-the-ground survey or from a 
source with an appropriate licence, of course).  No-one's arguing that 
real, used-by-human-beings, exists-on-a-sign, names should be excluded - 
but there needs to be a check to ensure that "made up" names (like 
"Doveridge Bypass") are excluded, as their inclusion devalues the 
information within OSM that does actually exist and is verifiable.


Cheers,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Lester, you are right. I miss understood you previous message.
Do you want OSM data model to be changed?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:RailsPortModels.png
It has very valuable feature: it is flexible for data of absolutely any
kind.
Extracting names to separate table will make it less sophisticated.

OSM data api is only (should only be) used by data editors and should not
be used for bulk data loading. I don't see any problem to load all
name:**-tags in JOSM or other editors.
It would be nice to have some JOSM plugin hiding name:** tag/value for
those who prefers not to see some tags.

2014-08-06 16:01 GMT+03:00 Lester Caine :

>
> Pavlo - you are miss understanding what I am saying ...
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[phil]

On Wed Aug 06 2014 14:18:24 GMT+0100 (BST), Marc Gemis wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:
> 
> > name"/"name:en" can't be the key for place names, since different cities
> > with the same names in english may have different names in another
> > language. (I can't find an example, but I am sure there are some)
> >
> 
> Paris (France) is Parijs in Dutch
> Paris (Texas) is Paris (as far as I know)
> 
> regards
> m
>
Newport, South Wales is Casnewydd in Welsh.  Newport,  Pembrokeshire is  
Trefdraeth.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 6 August 2014 14:18, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> Paris (France) is Parijs in Dutch
> Paris (Texas) is Paris (as far as I know)

London (UK) is Londres in French, but London (Ontario) is London. Very
confusing when booking on Air France's website: if you search for
'London', it tries sending you to Ontario.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:

> name"/"name:en" can't be the key for place names, since different cities
> with the same names in english may have different names in another
> language. (I can't find an example, but I am sure there are some)
>

Paris (France) is Parijs in Dutch
Paris (Texas) is Paris (as far as I know)

regards
m
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 06/08/14 13:28, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> Lester,
> I don't agree that ukrainian or other-language place names is secondary
> information.
> We should not extract this information to external data source.
> Why don't you say "Let's remove population-tag. Values are changing,
> let's integrate OSM with some service like
> http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/index.html";?
> Reason is very obvious: implementation of integration between dozens
> different services that use OSM-data and [Translation DB]/[Population
> DB] is much more expensive than storing translations/population in OSM-DB.

Pavlo - you are miss understanding what I am saying ...
The primary data in the heart of OSM would not have any 'language'
embedded in it. That would come from tables of translated data which are
still part of the database, but do not need to be accessed all the time.
The main problem with having ALL language data spread all through
database is that everybody gets it, while if you ONLY want Ukranian that
would be a much smaller data set. For languages where there is no
translations built in, a fall back to a third party tool could then be
actioned. No doubt someone would use that to populate that language, and
this is fine as long as mistakes are corrected.

Certainly I would not be using wikipedia myself, but nominatim enhanced
with a language selection facility ... still essentially contained
within OSM!

> "name"/"name:en" can't be the key for place names
Totally agree. There should be a uniqueID for every object in OSM, not
one that may change when people make mistakes changing other data :)

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Lester,
I don't agree that ukrainian or other-language place names is secondary
information.
We should not extract this information to external data source.
Why don't you say "Let's remove population-tag. Values are changing, let's
integrate OSM with some service like http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/index.html";?
Reason is very obvious: implementation of integration between dozens
different services that use OSM-data and [Translation DB]/[Population DB]
is much more expensive than storing translations/population in OSM-DB.

Assuming [Translation DB] exists..
"name"/"name:en" can't be the key for place names, since different cities
with the same names in english may have different names in another
language. (I can't find an example, but I am sure there are some)
"wikipedia"-tag(or less used "wikidata") might be the key for place names,
but wiki-DB doesn't contain records/articles about all planet settlements.
Wikidata might be [Translation DB].
But.. Do you really think that developers of different OSM services will
integrate their software with Wikidata? No, they'll say - put translations
into name:**, we use those tags as recommended in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Internationalization

2014-08-06 14:22 GMT+03:00 Lester Caine :

> Pavlo - one of the things that has irritated me from day one is the poor
> way that the data API has been designed.
> ...
> My comments about secondary databases are along that line, so that
> rather than having 'english' keys in the main database one has numeric
> keys and a lookup table which gives a translated view of all of the
> structure. So one logs in using Ukrainian and sees everything in
> Ukrainian ...
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 06/08/14 09:05, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> Wikipedia "Multilingual Map" is available on http://mlm.jochentopf.com/
> It works really good.

Pavlo - one of the things that has irritated me from day one is the poor
way that the data API has been designed. I've been working with
relational databases since the 90's and creating structures that are
flexible has always been paramount. I'm very much linguistically
challenged, but I understand the importance of supporting translations.
My comments about secondary databases are along that line, so that
rather than having 'english' keys in the main database one has numeric
keys and a lookup table which gives a translated view of all of the
structure. So one logs in using Ukrainian and sees everything in
Ukrainian ... Where something has not got a translation then the lookup
has a selections of fall-backs based on YOUR preferences. Place names
can then be handled as part of the translation system, rather than
entering things manually into database and a fall back there to third
party data makes perfect sense.

Since there is no move to providing this method of working, I think that
we can work with the 'english' keys and implement a service that makes
up for this but given the large size of some key text it will take a
while to populate :( There are a lot of third party tools but no
coordination on managing the translation data.

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Wikipedia "Multilingual Map" is available on http://mlm.jochentopf.com/
It works really good.


2014-08-06 10:54 GMT+03:00 David Woolley :

>  Unfortunately, the only realisation of this concept that I have found
> (not necessarily part of that project) is in an update freeze, pending the
> closure of the toolserver machine.  There are apparently plans to re-host
> it.
>
> E.g. http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/uk.html
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/14 12:00, Pavlo Dudka wrote:

There is also nice project "Multilingual Map" created as part of
Multilingual maps wikipedia
project(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_wikipedia_project).



Unfortunately, the only realisation of this concept that I have found 
(not necessarily part of that project) is in an update freeze, pending 
the closure of the toolserver machine.  There are apparently plans to 
re-host it.


E.g. http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/uk.html

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[phil]

You have missed a few, not all have is_in _country tag. so have not shown uo in 
your query.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Tue Aug 05 2014 19:38:54 GMT+0100 (BST), Brian Prangle wrote:
> Pavlo
> 
> If your ukrainian naming convention will be of use to your fellow
> ukrainians (e.g encouraging them to learn about our cities or visit them)
> then please go ahead and good luck! This can only be a good thing in my
> opinion. Having an extra language tag on my home city doesn't matter to me
> - I won't  understand it so I won't add to the debate - only Ukrainainans
> really need worry about spelling and naming - it's their language after
> all. Good luck and thanks for being polite and raising the issue in a
> debate with local mappers
> 
> Regards
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> On 5 August 2014 15:39, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:
> 
> > I am not familiar with city debating. I assume you just set place=city for
> > those that have official city status.
> >
> > No, St Davids and Bangor are not really known, but one can find
> > information about them in ukrainian.
> > St Davids mentioned as "Сент-Дейвідс" is famous by its monastery and
> > cathedral.
> > Bangor mentioned as "Бангор" is famous by its university. There are also
> > mentioning of football team.
> >  Milton Keynes mentioned as "Мілтон-Кінз"(sometimes "Мілтон Кейнс"), e.g.
> > here http://fakty.ictv.ua/ua/index/read-news/id/1492829 (translation of
> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/milton-keynes-introducing-driverless-public-transport-pods-by-2017-8925119.html
> > )
> > Shrewsbury mentioned as "Шрусбері". Some agency offers studying english
> > there:
> > http://www.vyvchennya-movy.com.ua/vyvchennya-movy/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%8F/%D0%A8%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%96/
> >
> > Wikipedia has ukrainian articles about all mentioned cities.
> >
> > 2014-08-05 16:28 GMT+03:00 :
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
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> >
> >
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Brian Prangle]

Pavlo

If your ukrainian naming convention will be of use to your fellow
ukrainians (e.g encouraging them to learn about our cities or visit them)
then please go ahead and good luck! This can only be a good thing in my
opinion. Having an extra language tag on my home city doesn't matter to me
- I won't  understand it so I won't add to the debate - only Ukrainainans
really need worry about spelling and naming - it's their language after
all. Good luck and thanks for being polite and raising the issue in a
debate with local mappers

Regards

Brian


On 5 August 2014 15:39, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:

> I am not familiar with city debating. I assume you just set place=city for
> those that have official city status.
>
> No, St Davids and Bangor are not really known, but one can find
> information about them in ukrainian.
> St Davids mentioned as "Сент-Дейвідс" is famous by its monastery and
> cathedral.
> Bangor mentioned as "Бангор" is famous by its university. There are also
> mentioning of football team.
>  Milton Keynes mentioned as "Мілтон-Кінз"(sometimes "Мілтон Кейнс"), e.g.
> here http://fakty.ictv.ua/ua/index/read-news/id/1492829 (translation of
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/milton-keynes-introducing-driverless-public-transport-pods-by-2017-8925119.html
> )
> Shrewsbury mentioned as "Шрусбері". Some agency offers studying english
> there:
> http://www.vyvchennya-movy.com.ua/vyvchennya-movy/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%8F/%D0%A8%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%96/
>
> Wikipedia has ukrainian articles about all mentioned cities.
>
> 2014-08-05 16:28 GMT+03:00 :
>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Richard Mann]

City is a formal designation in the UK (a charter granted by the Queen).
You might want to include place=town where population>100,000.
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

I am not familiar with city debating. I assume you just set place=city for
those that have official city status.

No, St Davids and Bangor are not really known, but one can find information
about them in ukrainian.
St Davids mentioned as "Сент-Дейвідс" is famous by its monastery and
cathedral.
Bangor mentioned as "Бангор" is famous by its university. There are also
mentioning of football team.
 Milton Keynes mentioned as "Мілтон-Кінз"(sometimes "Мілтон Кейнс"), e.g.
here http://fakty.ictv.ua/ua/index/read-news/id/1492829 (translation of
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/milton-keynes-introducing-driverless-public-transport-pods-by-2017-8925119.html
)
Shrewsbury mentioned as "Шрусбері". Some agency offers studying english
there:
http://www.vyvchennya-movy.com.ua/vyvchennya-movy/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%8F/%D0%A8%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%96/

Wikipedia has ukrainian articles about all mentioned cities.

2014-08-05 16:28 GMT+03:00 :

>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 14:28, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
> or world heritage Ironbridge which considering its status is surprising how 
> left alone its been.
Only translation google returns of the ones I scanned - Иронбридге in
Serbian ... every other one gave no translation :)

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[phil]

On Tue Aug 05 2014 08:11:30 GMT+0100 (BST), Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history,
> geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.
> I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially small. I
> will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is determined
> translation english-to-ukrainian for them.
> 
> 
I am interested in your list, especially as we been debating the status of city 
in the UK.

Your list does appear to be a list of most, but not all, British cities.

Are  St Davids, or Bangor  really well known in the Ukrainian? 

Then there are the big towns, such as Milton Keynes, or historic Shrewsbury,  
or world heritage Ironbridge which considering its status is surprising how 
left alone its been.

Phil (trigpoint )

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 13:05, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> Why do you call it "poor transliteration"?
> Actually "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" is the result of transcription(ˈbɛrɪ sənt
> ˈɛdməndz) conversion, additionally united by hyphens according to
> general city spelling.
> This city name *is used* in ukrainian texts in wikipedia, airline
> tickets web-sites, as tourist destination, weather forecasts web-sites, etc.

( PLEASE TRIM ! )

Google gives
Бери Сент-Едмундс for Ukrainian and Бери Сент-Эдмундс for Russian but
then a search for the first gets corrupted to the second with both
hyphens by google :(

Being linguistically challenged, is this simply a translation of the
three words anyway? It's difficult to understand where 'translations'
come from some time. Chipping Campden is giving дроблення Campden so
obviously not all words translate?

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Ed Loach]

Pavlo wrote:

> I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it 
> is easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data 
> sources.
> Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other 
> data from Wikidata or other projects.

Nominatim already uses data from other sources. See for example
http://www.nominatim.org
which lists the OS Opendata Postcode Centroids (I'm guessing) and two wikipedia 
related datasets to (I guess) help prioritise results for places where names 
match.
https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim/tree/master/data
suggests that it also has extra data for US postcodes from TIGER source.

>From all the messages I've seen in this thread, wikidata seems the best 
>solution.

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 12:23, SomeoneElse wrote:
>> I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially
>> small. I will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is
>> determined translation english-to-ukrainian for them.
> 
> That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web
> articles published?  How do you know that the translation is accurate,
> and not a poor transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How
> does another mapper verify(1) that the name is correct?

This is perhaps my only question as well. The 'on the ground' guide line
provides one element of verifiability, and Welsh and Scottish names may
well appear on the ground, but since we can't easily verify what is only
present in third party material, some link to the source of this third
party information would be helpful? Which is why I would prefer to see
links to third party sources rather than simply cloning that data into
OSM ...

I rely on google to provide translations and I presume that the
Ukrainian translations provided by google are not 'politically correct'?
I'm having a battle with Facebook at the moment over Broadway,
Worcestershire since Facebook will not allow it, claiming it's in
Gloucestershire ... facts don't apparently have any place in Facebook.
This translates to Бродвей, Вустершир in both the Russian and Ukrainian
translation, and then a search for those names gives a substantial
number of hits. But many of those are in the alternate languages, just
as many countries use the 'French' name rather than the English one but
for Broadway that is one of the same ...

Rather than creating hundreds of 'translations' for every name in OSM,
all that is needed is to decide the fallback that you prefer when a
specifically different translation is not available. What I may be
missing here is if google is getting english-to-ukrainian wrong?

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Dan S]

2014-08-05 12:23 GMT+01:00 SomeoneElse :
> On 05/08/2014 08:11, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>>
>> I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history,
>> geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.
>
>
> OK...
>
>
>> I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially small. I
>> will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is determined translation
>> english-to-ukrainian for them.
>
>
> That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web articles
> published?

The licence of the web articles is likely to be irrelevant since Pavlo
proposes to use them as a source of "mere facts" and not copyright
content. This is quite different from sourcing the data from a
structured data source, where "database rights" (different from
copyright) might prevent you from using the info. (I have UK/EU law in
mind specifically, and I'm not a lawyer, but just thought I should
mention it.)

>  How do you know that the translation is accurate, and not a poor
> transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How does another mapper
> verify(1) that the name is correct?

These questions are pertinent :)

Dan


> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
> (1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Why do you call it "poor transliteration"?
Actually "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" is the result of transcription(ˈbɛrɪ sənt
ˈɛdməndz) conversion, additionally united by hyphens according to general
city spelling.
This city name *is used* in ukrainian texts in wikipedia, airline tickets
web-sites, as tourist destination, weather forecasts web-sites, etc.


2014-08-05 14:23 GMT+03:00 SomeoneElse :

> That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web
> articles published?  How do you know that the translation is accurate, and
> not a poor transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How does
> another mapper verify(1) that the name is correct?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
> (1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SomeoneElse]

On 05/08/2014 08:11, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history, 
geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.


OK...

I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially 
small. I will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is 
determined translation english-to-ukrainian for them.


That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web 
articles published?  How do you know that the translation is accurate, 
and not a poor transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How 
does another mapper verify(1) that the name is correct?


Cheers,

Andy

(1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Richard Mann]

This thread is already too long (though Fred's contribution was a classic).

If people want to add transliterations (or genuinely different names) by
hand, then let them. As long as no-one starts doing mass automated
transliterations, then it doesn't matter very much.

Richard (M)


On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:

> I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it is
> easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data
> sources.
> Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other
> data from Wikidata or other projects.
> Mapnik allows to process .osm data without using any external data sources.
> There is also nice project "Multilingual Map" created as part of
> Multilingual maps wikipedia project(
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_wikipedia_project).
> Can any of this services be easily modified to use Wikidata? No.
>
> I don't ask anyone to waste his time to modify UK place-nodes. That's how
> I want to spend my own time. But I want to be sure that SomeoneElse_Revert
> or someone else will not revert my changes.
>
> OSM-community tries to avoid any imports. I would like to check all cities
> one by one. I will check its spelling in ukrainian spelling dictionary,
> wikipedia, web articles.
>
> Note, half of UK cities don't have any reference to Wikipedia.
>
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=node[%22is_in:country%22=%22United%20Kingdom%22][%22place%22=%22city%22][%22wikipedia%22!~%22.*%22];out%3B&R
> I can fill them too while adding name:uk=*.
>
>
> 2014-08-05 12:42 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :
>
>> > Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use
>> single
>> > service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
>> > OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
>> > someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.
>>
>> You assert that it is "much better"  to sue a dingle service, rather
>> than using linked open data as it is meant to be used; but you present
>> no argument for that assertion.
>>
>> It is ot a case of "not liking" some tags, but of not wanting to
>> squander vouneteer hours repeating work that has already been done -
>> effectively and better - elsewhere.
>>
>> Even were your assertion true, the data is, in many cases, already in
>> Wikidata and freely available for import.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Dan S]

Hi -

In general I like interlinking - it reduces maintenance burden, for
example (imagine _manually_ making sure wikidata and osm both were
up-to-date with the same data! oof) - and I support the idea that
there's much data which doesn't "need" to be in OSM. However there's
rarely an objective way to decide which data store the data "needs" to
be in. OSM has already evolved a standard practice for
foreign-language placenames, within OSM, so I think it would be
strange to rule out Pavlo's suggestion purely on the basis that the
data "should" be somewhere else.

I think this discussion has been very helpful in clarifying, for
name:*, the "bad" approaches (unfounded transliteration, mindless
importing) versus the "good" approach (annotating foreign names
actually in use). I personally am happy with the approach clarified in
this latest email - manually annotating names that Ukranians actually
use for UK cities.

Pavlo, your original email used an overpass query to specify the
cities you planned to rename. That gave _me_ the impression you
intended to do something a bit less principled, but as long as you're
doing names-in-actual-use rather than names-for-all-cities that's
better!

Best
Dan


2014-08-05 12:00 GMT+01:00 Pavlo Dudka :
> I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it is
> easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data
> sources.
> Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other
> data from Wikidata or other projects.
> Mapnik allows to process .osm data without using any external data sources.
> There is also nice project "Multilingual Map" created as part of
> Multilingual maps wikipedia
> project(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_wikipedia_project).
> Can any of this services be easily modified to use Wikidata? No.
>
> I don't ask anyone to waste his time to modify UK place-nodes. That's how I
> want to spend my own time. But I want to be sure that SomeoneElse_Revert or
> someone else will not revert my changes.
>
> OSM-community tries to avoid any imports. I would like to check all cities
> one by one. I will check its spelling in ukrainian spelling dictionary,
> wikipedia, web articles.
>
> Note, half of UK cities don't have any reference to Wikipedia.
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=node[%22is_in:country%22=%22United%20Kingdom%22][%22place%22=%22city%22][%22wikipedia%22!~%22.*%22];out%3B&R
> I can fill them too while adding name:uk=*.
>
>
> 2014-08-05 12:42 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :
>>
>> > Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use
>> > single
>> > service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
>> > OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
>> > someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.
>>
>> You assert that it is "much better"  to sue a dingle service, rather
>> than using linked open data as it is meant to be used; but you present
>> no argument for that assertion.
>>
>> It is ot a case of "not liking" some tags, but of not wanting to
>> squander vouneteer hours repeating work that has already been done -
>> effectively and better - elsewhere.
>>
>> Even were your assertion true, the data is, in many cases, already in
>> Wikidata and freely available for import.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it is
easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data
sources.
Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other
data from Wikidata or other projects.
Mapnik allows to process .osm data without using any external data sources.
There is also nice project "Multilingual Map" created as part of
Multilingual maps wikipedia project(
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_wikipedia_project).
Can any of this services be easily modified to use Wikidata? No.

I don't ask anyone to waste his time to modify UK place-nodes. That's how I
want to spend my own time. But I want to be sure that SomeoneElse_Revert or
someone else will not revert my changes.

OSM-community tries to avoid any imports. I would like to check all cities
one by one. I will check its spelling in ukrainian spelling dictionary,
wikipedia, web articles.

Note, half of UK cities don't have any reference to Wikipedia.
http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=node[%22is_in:country%22=%22United%20Kingdom%22][%22place%22=%22city%22][%22wikipedia%22!~%22.*%22];out%3B&R
I can fill them too while adding name:uk=*.


2014-08-05 12:42 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :

> > Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use
> single
> > service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
> > OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
> > someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.
>
> You assert that it is "much better"  to sue a dingle service, rather
> than using linked open data as it is meant to be used; but you present
> no argument for that assertion.
>
> It is ot a case of "not liking" some tags, but of not wanting to
> squander vouneteer hours repeating work that has already been done -
> effectively and better - elsewhere.
>
> Even were your assertion true, the data is, in many cases, already in
> Wikidata and freely available for import.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SK53]

Thanks for a brilliant example.

Just want to point out that wikipedia is not exempt from this, I had great
difficulty findin a wikipedia:en article about the Haut Fagnes after
reading Cristoph Eckert's fine blog post
, the only
way to find it was to search wikipedia:fr and then click on the English
Language article to find it called "High Fens
". Similarly the Erzgebirge appear
as the Ore Mountains. In both cases this is to apparently avoid some
language sensibilities (which are either overstated or could have easily
been managed with a suitable redirect).

I look forward to seeing:

name:fr=Colonie du peuple de Snot
name:de=Siedlung des Volkes von Rotz

and so on *ad nauseum*


On a more serious note, there is (or perhaps, more accurately, was) a
substantial Ukrainian diaspora in the United Kingdom. For instance there is
a Ukrainian social club  and church
in Nottingham. It would be interesting to find out what the typical usage
is within this diaspora.

Jerry


On 5 August 2014 00:38, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/04/2014 08:23 PM, SomeoneElse wrote:
> > To duplicate every name in OSM in every language (or even every
> > alphabet) is clearly ridiculous - and the "but it's only for cities"
> > argument is also not a good one, since what is done for cities will next
> > be done for towns, villages, village shops, everything.
>
> I agree with that and I have often tried to make the point that the
> "name" tag should be reserved for situations in which something really
> has a certain distinct name in the given language.
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53574164 - if I visit Pont Neuf will
> there be a sign in English explaining to me that this building is called
> "New Bridge"? Will I meet native English speakers who tell me they've
> been to "New Bridge" in Paris (the same way they will say that they have
> been to "Munich")?
>
> No? Then what on earth does the name:en tag do on that object. Of course
> the other name:xx tags aren't any better as a far as I can judge. The
> only reason I haven't yet blown these tags to pieces is that I can
> occasionally use them in rants like this.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Tom Joyce]

That'd be needed to translate to modern English - Birmingham
translated_meaning:en=the farm of Beormund's people


On 5 August 2014 10:34, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 5 August 2014 00:38, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>
> > if I visit Pont Neuf will there be a sign in English explaining to me
> > that this building is called "New Bridge"?
>
> Your rhetorical question suggests that perhaps there is a need for
> something like a "translated_meaning:" tag.
>
> --
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> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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-- 
Yours aye,
   Tom
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Andy Mabbett]

On 5 August 2014 00:38, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> if I visit Pont Neuf will there be a sign in English explaining to me
> that this building is called "New Bridge"?

Your rhetorical question suggests that perhaps there is a need for
something like a "translated_meaning:" tag.

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 08:06, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK.
> That's why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it
> internationaly?
> 
> 2014-08-05 2:37 GMT+03:00 Lester Caine  >:
> 
> On 05/08/14 00:11, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Andrew Hain wrote:
> >> > It was only put in recently and I personally find it unhelpful.
> Would
> >> > anyone object to removing it?
> > Yes.
> Ditto ... The alternate name tagging is designed where there are
> alternate names in other languages. Simply writing a name in a different
> alphabet is something that the renderer can do if required.
> 
> But this is a discussion for the international list rather than just
> the UK?

Discussing a guide line set up internationally on a local list is what I
was commenting on. Certainly removing one requires discussion. But like
many areas of the data process, personally I'd prefer that the secondary
data was in a secondary database, but then I had thought geonames
provided translations :(

http://translationjournal.net/journal/28names.htm recommends translation
of places where there is not a specific translation then the local
language is retained. I suppose all I am looking at is finding locations
on-line that I recognise, If there is a translation dictionary on-line
for every place name into Chinese and Chinese literature uses those
names, then on paper fine, every 'translation' should be copied to OSM?
It's this overload of material that I feel is wrong when there SHOULD be
some other means of identifying the translation. If there is NOT a
documented translation of a name, then it should not be invented, which
is basically I think what the guide line was trying to avoid? We do not
want to become the 'primary' source of translations, only reflecting
what is ALREADY documented elsewhere.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/14 08:05, Pavlo Dudka wrote:

No, I don't want to add name:uk for cities or other objects that were
never mentioned it ukrainian texts. This is redundant.


Unfortunately, there are lots of cases where people add detailed data 
that, although possibly not mechanically derivable from other data, 
still doesn't add much to the map.  Recently I've noticed that a snap 
shot of restaurant food safety ratings has been added in a certain area. 
 These will never get maintained and the restaurant may have moved from 
perfect to being closed by the council by the time someone reads them 
(fortunately the one that had been closed by the council wasn't one that 
had a recorded rating!).


(Street names are actually very stable compared with small office 
tenants or food safety ratings, so are relatively harmless except in 
terms of database bloat.)


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Let's check Liverpool http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/21421501
I see set of names on different languages.
Ukrainians call it Ліверпуль. I don't know how this word appeared in
ukrainian language, it just appeared hundreds years ago.
Why should one require discussion to enter name:uk?


2014-08-05 10:29 GMT+03:00 Paul Norman :

> On 8/5/2014 12:06 AM, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>
>> It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK. That's
>> why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it internationaly?
>>
> There is a general understanding that name:xx is for the name in the
> language xx, not a translation of the name.
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Paul Norman]

On 8/5/2014 12:06 AM, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK. 
That's why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it 
internationaly? 
There is a general understanding that name:xx is for the name in the 
language xx, not a translation of the name.


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/14 00:37, Lester Caine wrote:

Simply writing a name in a different
alphabet is something that the renderer can do if required.


There is rarely a 1:1 mapping between different alphabets, except within 
a single country, and the mapping depends on both source and destination 
languages - and in fact dialect.  If you are going to do it 
mechanically, you must have detailed transliteration rules between every 
pair of languages that don't share a script.  Just consider the 
different transliterations needed for Paris in French and Paris (Texas?) 
in English.


You could reduce the problem to O(n) rather than O(n**2) by having a 
phonetic transliteration, but note that, as normally used, IPA is an 
approximation, designed to distinguish phonemes within a single 
language, so you would need a more detailed IPA markup than most people 
are used to.


In this particular case, I think there is almost certainly an element of 
Ukrainian nationalism, attempting to expunge all traces of Russian.  If 
you started  transliterating based just on Russian pronunciation of 
Cyrillic, even if you called it a pseudo-language called Cyrillic, it 
would probably never be acceptable to the Ukrainians in the current 
political climate.


Especially with Chinese, there are large numbers of homophones with 
different meanings, and words are often composed from two characters. 
Approximate transliteration requires a lot of knowledge, to avoid 
unintended meanings in the transliteration. Also the script is used with 
widely different spoken languages, so a mechanical transliteration would 
have to choose one of those languages.


I'm not suggesting that it is a good idea to translate every street 
name, although I would note that that will already have been done, 
outside OSM, for all the central London (tourist area) streets, into 
Chinese.


I think place names are so fundamental to any geographical map that 
contains any text at all, that alternative names should be part of the 
core database (although one could have special structures for them.


Any mechanical process needs to be predicated on having phonetic 
transcriptions available (probably two: the one used in the place 
itself, and the one in the country's equivalent of received pronunciation).


English street names largely come from a small vocabulary, which 
strongly overlaps with place names.  If you are afraid of a 
proliferation of ad hoc street name transliterations, maybe the map 
database should contain a list of names used for streets within a 
country.  (In the USA, there is also a lot of re-use of place names 
(Roswell in New Mexico is not the only Roswell).


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history,
geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.
I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially small. I
will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is determined
translation english-to-ukrainian for them.


2014-08-04 21:25 GMT+03:00 SomeoneElse :

> On 04/08/2014 16:15, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>
>> Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found that
>> SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 20757217 with
>> a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian "translations" including ones
>> for which there's nothing on the ground".
>> This is the list of cities I plan to modify:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
>>
>
> What were you planning to use as the source of Ukrainian city names for
> those places on that list?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK. That's
why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it internationaly?


2014-08-05 2:37 GMT+03:00 Lester Caine :

> On 05/08/14 00:11, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Andrew Hain wrote:
> >> > It was only put in recently and I personally find it unhelpful. Would
> >> > anyone object to removing it?
> > Yes.
> Ditto ... The alternate name tagging is designed where there are
> alternate names in other languages. Simply writing a name in a different
> alphabet is something that the renderer can do if required.
>
> But this is a discussion for the international list rather than just the
> UK?
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Andy, I agree that Berlin doesn't need hundreds of name:**, but not because
they are similar. Just because 80% will never be used. name:** should be
entered by native speakers, not imported by Kolossos. Bury St Edmunds needs
[name:uk=Бері-Сент-Едмендс]. Just assume Ukrainian person reading ukrainian
article about Bury St Edmunds using Бері-Сент-Едмендс as city name. One
would like to find it in OSM, but Nominatim can not find it! It is not easy
to translate "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" back to "Bury St Edmunds" if you don't
english names of UK cities.
No, I don't want to add name:uk for cities or other objects that were never
mentioned it ukrainian texts. This is redundant.


2014-08-04 21:23 GMT+03:00 SomeoneElse :

> On 04/08/2014 18:08, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>> The big problem with transliteration to help pronunciation is where do
>> you stop, Berlin for example has 194 name tags for different languages, 84
>> of which just say Berlin.
>>
>
> Which gets straight to the nub of the problem. Berlin does _not_ need a
> name:en of "Berlin" because it does _not_ have an English name that's
> different to its actual name.
>
> Similarly, Bury St Edmunds(1) doesn't need a name:uk of Бері-Сент-Едмендс
> as whichever local mapper I checked with in #osm-gb(2) said that it doesn't
> have a distinct, verifiable, Ukrainian name (unlike for example Moscow (3)
> and London (4), which have several distinct names). "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" is
> a simple transliteration of the sound of the words "Bury St Edmunds" into
> Ukrainian (poorly, as it turns out, because the pronunciation of the second
> "u" is rendered as an "e" in the same way as the first (correctly) is).
>
> To duplicate every name in OSM in every language (or even every alphabet)
> is clearly ridiculous - and the "but it's only for cities" argument is also
> not a good one, since what is done for cities will next be done for towns,
> villages, village shops, everything.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> (1) http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/21409982/history
> (2) https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/20757217
> (3) http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2555133
> (4) http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/65606
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use single
service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.


2014-08-04 20:24 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :

> On 4 August 2014 17:11, David Woolley  wrote:
>
> >> This is the list of cities I plan to modify:
> >> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
> >
> > Those look like the sort of major cities and towns that
> > would have foreign language names.
>
> This sounds like (yet another) job for Wikidata.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/04/2014 08:23 PM, SomeoneElse wrote:
> To duplicate every name in OSM in every language (or even every
> alphabet) is clearly ridiculous - and the "but it's only for cities"
> argument is also not a good one, since what is done for cities will next
> be done for towns, villages, village shops, everything.

I agree with that and I have often tried to make the point that the
"name" tag should be reserved for situations in which something really
has a certain distinct name in the given language.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53574164 - if I visit Pont Neuf will
there be a sign in English explaining to me that this building is called
"New Bridge"? Will I meet native English speakers who tell me they've
been to "New Bridge" in Paris (the same way they will say that they have
been to "Munich")?

No? Then what on earth does the name:en tag do on that object. Of course
the other name:xx tags aren't any better as a far as I can judge. The
only reason I haven't yet blown these tags to pieces is that I can
occasionally use them in rants like this.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 00:11, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Andrew Hain wrote:
>> > It was only put in recently and I personally find it unhelpful. Would
>> > anyone object to removing it?
> Yes.
Ditto ... The alternate name tagging is designed where there are
alternate names in other languages. Simply writing a name in a different
alphabet is something that the renderer can do if required.

But this is a discussion for the international list rather than just the UK?

-- 
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-
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Richard Fairhurst]

Andrew Hain wrote:
> It was only put in recently and I personally find it unhelpful. Would
> anyone object to removing it?

Yes.

Richard





--
View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Andrew Hain]

Ed Loach  writes:

> There is a bit in the wiki which recommends avoiding
> transliterations:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Avoid_transliteration

It was only put in recently and I personally find it unhelpful. Would anyone
object to removing it?

--
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SomeoneElse]

On 04/08/2014 16:15, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found 
that SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 
20757217 with a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian 
"translations" including ones for which there's nothing on the ground".
This is the list of cities I plan to modify: 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF


What were you planning to use as the source of Ukrainian city names for 
those places on that list?


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SomeoneElse]

On 04/08/2014 18:08, Philip Barnes wrote:
The big problem with transliteration to help pronunciation is where do 
you stop, Berlin for example has 194 name tags for different 
languages, 84 of which just say Berlin.


Which gets straight to the nub of the problem. Berlin does _not_ need a 
name:en of "Berlin" because it does _not_ have an English name that's 
different to its actual name.


Similarly, Bury St Edmunds(1) doesn't need a name:uk of 
Бері-Сент-Едмендс as whichever local mapper I checked with in #osm-gb(2) 
said that it doesn't have a distinct, verifiable, Ukrainian name (unlike 
for example Moscow (3) and London (4), which have several distinct 
names). "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" is a simple transliteration of the sound of 
the words "Bury St Edmunds" into Ukrainian (poorly, as it turns out, 
because the pronunciation of the second "u" is rendered as an "e" in the 
same way as the first (correctly) is).


To duplicate every name in OSM in every language (or even every 
alphabet) is clearly ridiculous - and the "but it's only for cities" 
argument is also not a good one, since what is done for cities will next 
be done for towns, villages, village shops, everything.


Cheers,

Andy



(1) http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/21409982/history
(2) https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/20757217
(3) http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2555133
(4) http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/65606

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Andy Mabbett]

On 4 August 2014 18:46, SK53  wrote:

> Totally agree with you: however, it would be quite
> nice to have some kind of demonstrator showing
> how to take an OSM extract & enrich it with wikidata
> values.

Briefly (I'm just about to go out), the technique is demonstrated at:


http://google-opensource.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/qlabel-multilingual-content-without.html

> Arising out of this point, it is worth, at the very least
> ensuring UK places have a wikipedia tag.

Indeed; and/ or Wikidata. hence my bot proposal.

   http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SK53]

Andy,

Totally agree with you: however, it would be quite nice to have some kind
of demonstrator showing how to take an OSM extract & enrich it with
wikidata values.

Arising out of this point, it is worth, at the very least ensuring UK
places have a wikipedia tag.

Jerry


On 4 August 2014 18:24, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 4 August 2014 17:11, David Woolley  wrote:
>
> >> This is the list of cities I plan to modify:
> >> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
> >
> > Those look like the sort of major cities and towns that
> > would have foreign language names.
>
> This sounds like (yet another) job for Wikidata.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Andy Mabbett]

On 4 August 2014 17:11, David Woolley  wrote:

>> This is the list of cities I plan to modify:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
>
> Those look like the sort of major cities and towns that
> would have foreign language names.

This sounds like (yet another) job for Wikidata.

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2014-08-04 at 16:51 +0100, John Sturdy wrote:
> I hadn't known (or remembered) that recommendation from the wiki; but
> still, the Ukrainian spelling (resulting in a Ukrainian reader
> understanding it as a reasonable phonetic imitation of the English
> name) may often be very far from a transliteration (letter-for-letting
> substitution) from the English name.  I'll put Towcester forward as an
> example!  (For those not familiar with it: it's pronounced like
> "Toaster".)

And ones Americans have trouble with such as Leicester and Loughborough.

Then there are then more localised ones such as Belvoir (pronounced
Beaver) a name which caused endless fun at the Leicester site with
visitors asking the Bell Voir room.

Whilst at Telford we have an Ercall room (pronounced Arcall) and
elsewhere in Shropshire we have Sleap (pronunced Slape) and Quina Brook
(pronounced Keena).

The big problem with transliteration to help pronunciation is where do
you stop, Berlin for example has 194 name tags for different languages,
84 of which just say Berlin.

If we are to help pronunciation, then the way to go is the International
Phonetic alphabet which can be used by translators to all language. But
then again its fun to hear non-locals get it wrong. Then again I was the
non-local who was laughed at in the pub when I got Sleap and Quina Brook
wrong :)

Phil (trigpoint)


> 
> __John
> 
> On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Ed Loach  wrote:
> >> Since English has non-phonetic spelling (and some placenames are
> >> particularly non-phonetic) there's no solid base for automatic
> >> transliteration to something meaningful in another script, so I
> > think
> >> it's reasonable to put the Ukrainian spelling in explicitly, for
> >> places for which such a spelling is established..
> >
> > Perhaps in the cast of non-phonetic places there is some argument
> > that such names could possibly be added, but looking at Pavlo's
> > proposed cities I noticed Chelmsford which already has two Cyrillic
> > language transliterations I feel would be better removed.
> >
> > There is a bit in the wiki which recommends avoiding
> > transliterations:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Avoid_transliteration
> >
> > Speaking of an on the ground example, a few years ago I visited
> > Crete and while all signs were in Greek, some of the tourist ones
> > were also in a Roman script (I can't claim "English" - a name is a
> > name). One particular place we wanted to visit we struggled to find
> > on the map, and it was only when we were driving in the area we
> > found that the translation from Greek in the guide book we'd read in
> > advance, and the translation and the map and the translation on the
> > sign post were three different translations. In this instance (if
> > I'd been an OSM mapper at the time) I'd have added a name:en of what
> > was on the sign, though as noted above it isn't technically "en". I
> > suspect the three different translations were transliterations of
> > different ways it was pronounced.
> >
> > As far as I know Chelmsford has no cyrillic translations on their
> > signs.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[David Woolley]

On 04/08/14 16:15, Pavlo Dudka wrote:

Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found that
SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 20757217
with a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian "translations" including


There might be some need to check that:

- the names really are those used in Ukraine;
- they haven't been taken from a copyright source -  a likely problem 
when importing in bulk;

- the process will not override existing Ukrainian names.

but...


ones for which there's nothing on the ground".


I certainly don't think that commonly used names should be rejected 
simply because the local signage doesn't include them.  As I pointed out 
to SomeoneElse elsewhere, most or all UK Universities have a Chinese 
name, even though it probably doesn't appear at the entrance to the 
campus.  That probably extends to all the cities and towns, as well. 
Taking the Chinese case, particularly, the names are often a mix of 
phonetic and semantic translations.  E.g Cambridge has a phonetic for 
the Cam and a straight translation for the bridge, but Oxford is a 
translation of both parts.  Westminster is a translation for West and a 
phonetic for Minster. The phonetic may only work for one dialect, or may 
even be Japanese.


The red brick university in question, had more than 940,000 Google hits 
on its Chinese name (actually now 1.36 million), in spite of not being 
signed with that name.


The reason that I don't normally add foreign language names, unless 
actually signed, is that most of the sources I would have for them would 
have effective database copyrights.



This is the list of cities I plan to modify: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF


Those look like the sort of major cities and towns that would have 
foreign language names.




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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[John Sturdy]

I hadn't known (or remembered) that recommendation from the wiki; but
still, the Ukrainian spelling (resulting in a Ukrainian reader
understanding it as a reasonable phonetic imitation of the English
name) may often be very far from a transliteration (letter-for-letting
substitution) from the English name.  I'll put Towcester forward as an
example!  (For those not familiar with it: it's pronounced like
"Toaster".)

__John

On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Ed Loach  wrote:
>> Since English has non-phonetic spelling (and some placenames are
>> particularly non-phonetic) there's no solid base for automatic
>> transliteration to something meaningful in another script, so I
> think
>> it's reasonable to put the Ukrainian spelling in explicitly, for
>> places for which such a spelling is established..
>
> Perhaps in the cast of non-phonetic places there is some argument
> that such names could possibly be added, but looking at Pavlo's
> proposed cities I noticed Chelmsford which already has two Cyrillic
> language transliterations I feel would be better removed.
>
> There is a bit in the wiki which recommends avoiding
> transliterations:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Avoid_transliteration
>
> Speaking of an on the ground example, a few years ago I visited
> Crete and while all signs were in Greek, some of the tourist ones
> were also in a Roman script (I can't claim "English" - a name is a
> name). One particular place we wanted to visit we struggled to find
> on the map, and it was only when we were driving in the area we
> found that the translation from Greek in the guide book we'd read in
> advance, and the translation and the map and the translation on the
> sign post were three different translations. In this instance (if
> I'd been an OSM mapper at the time) I'd have added a name:en of what
> was on the sign, though as noted above it isn't technically "en". I
> suspect the three different translations were transliterations of
> different ways it was pronounced.
>
> As far as I know Chelmsford has no cyrillic translations on their
> signs.
>
> Ed
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Ed Loach]

> Since English has non-phonetic spelling (and some placenames are
> particularly non-phonetic) there's no solid base for automatic
> transliteration to something meaningful in another script, so I
think
> it's reasonable to put the Ukrainian spelling in explicitly, for
> places for which such a spelling is established..

Perhaps in the cast of non-phonetic places there is some argument
that such names could possibly be added, but looking at Pavlo's
proposed cities I noticed Chelmsford which already has two Cyrillic
language transliterations I feel would be better removed. 

There is a bit in the wiki which recommends avoiding
transliterations:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Avoid_transliteration

Speaking of an on the ground example, a few years ago I visited
Crete and while all signs were in Greek, some of the tourist ones
were also in a Roman script (I can't claim "English" - a name is a
name). One particular place we wanted to visit we struggled to find
on the map, and it was only when we were driving in the area we
found that the translation from Greek in the guide book we'd read in
advance, and the translation and the map and the translation on the
sign post were three different translations. In this instance (if
I'd been an OSM mapper at the time) I'd have added a name:en of what
was on the sign, though as noted above it isn't technically "en". I
suspect the three different translations were transliterations of
different ways it was pronounced.

As far as I know Chelmsford has no cyrillic translations on their
signs.

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[John Sturdy]

Since English has non-phonetic spelling (and some placenames are
particularly non-phonetic) there's no solid base for automatic
transliteration to something meaningful in another script, so I think
it's reasonable to put the Ukrainian spelling in explicitly, for
places for which such a spelling is established..

__John


On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:
> Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found that
> SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 20757217 with a
> comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian "translations" including ones for
> which there's nothing on the ground".
> This is the list of cities I plan to modify: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
>
> I raised the question in irc osm-gb and was surprised since there are local
> mappers that prefer to avoid adding name:**-tags. They say one should use
> algorithms to get name:** automatically. (I didn't find any algorithm for
> english-to-ukrainian conversion, although there is one for
> ukrainian-to-latin conversion)
>
> Actually I don't see any disadvantages on adding name:**-tags, but there are
> benefits described in
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Internationalization
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#OpenStreetMap_map_data
> The most important - any service may use name:**-values without learning
> languages and implementing probably existing algorithms.
>
> Note, I agree that adding name:uk is unnecessary and useless for streets and
> other objects that were never translated to ukrainian. But large cities are
> often mentioned in [tranlated to ukrainian] news, books, web articles, etc.
> Let's add this information to OpenStreetMap.
>
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[Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found that
SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 20757217 with
a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian "translations" including ones
for which there's nothing on the ground".
This is the list of cities I plan to modify: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF

I raised the question in irc osm-gb and was surprised since there are local
mappers that prefer to avoid adding name:**-tags. They say one should use
algorithms to get name:** automatically. (I didn't find any algorithm for
english-to-ukrainian conversion, although there is one for
ukrainian-to-latin conversion)

Actually I don't see any disadvantages on adding name:**-tags, but there
are benefits described in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Internationalization
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#OpenStreetMap_map_data
The most important - any service may use name:**-values without learning
languages and implementing probably existing algorithms.

Note, I agree that adding name:uk is unnecessary and useless for streets
and other objects that were never translated to ukrainian. But large cities
are often mentioned in [tranlated to ukrainian] news, books, web articles,
etc.
Let's add this information to OpenStreetMap.
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