Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
If you think Bristol or Aberdeen are mad then try Norwich: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/172506 Again presumably due to Norwich's history as a port and therefore having control of the river. Tom On 12/09/2020 22:53, Russ Garrett wrote: Yeah, I assume what happened is that the City of Bristol ended up, at some point, as a statutory port authority (which I think they were until 1991), and somehow the boundary from that has remained as their local authority boundary. But it's still a fairly unique situation as there are many other harbours with statutory port authorities where this anomaly doesn't exist. I'm fairly sure that Bristol boundary does not coincide with the current limits of the Port of Bristol. Aberdeen has a small seaward extension which also doesn't appear to coincide with their current port authority limits either. So it's not clear what these seaward extensions currently achieve. I'd love to find the actual legislation which created this... Russ On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 22:24, Mark Goodge wrote: On 12/09/2020 21:23, Russ Garrett wrote: I've foolishly now decided to try to get to the bottom of it - the beating of the bounds still doesn't explain why exactly it covers that area (although I'm impressed that the Lord Mayor managed to commandeer a warship to do so!) AIUI, it's because it's the historic maritime navigation route into Bristol and Avonmouth. The simplified constituency boundary map is, possibly a little bizarrely, one of the best visualisations of that: https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3368/location See also this Admiralty chart for the Bristol Channel - you can see that the "Bristol Deep" channel passes between the two islands and leads into the harbour: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0278/1529/products/OCB-1179.jpg Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
On 2020-09-12 23:53, Russ Garrett wrote: > Yeah, I assume what happened is that the City of Bristol ended up, at > some point, as a statutory port authority (which I think they were > until 1991), and somehow the boundary from that has remained as their > local authority boundary. But it's still a fairly unique situation as > there are many other harbours with statutory port authorities where > this anomaly doesn't exist. > > I'm fairly sure that Bristol boundary does not coincide with the > current limits of the Port of Bristol. Aberdeen has a small seaward > extension which also doesn't appear to coincide with their current > port authority limits either. So it's not clear what these seaward > extensions currently achieve. > > I'd love to find the actual legislation which created this... There are seaward extensions not linked to a port as well. I wonder what the background is to Torbay (Devon) for example.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
Yeah, I assume what happened is that the City of Bristol ended up, at some point, as a statutory port authority (which I think they were until 1991), and somehow the boundary from that has remained as their local authority boundary. But it's still a fairly unique situation as there are many other harbours with statutory port authorities where this anomaly doesn't exist. I'm fairly sure that Bristol boundary does not coincide with the current limits of the Port of Bristol. Aberdeen has a small seaward extension which also doesn't appear to coincide with their current port authority limits either. So it's not clear what these seaward extensions currently achieve. I'd love to find the actual legislation which created this... Russ On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 22:24, Mark Goodge wrote: > > > > On 12/09/2020 21:23, Russ Garrett wrote: > > I've foolishly now decided to try to get to the bottom of it - the > > beating of the bounds still doesn't explain why exactly it covers that > > area (although I'm impressed that the Lord Mayor managed to commandeer > > a warship to do so!) > > AIUI, it's because it's the historic maritime navigation route into > Bristol and Avonmouth. The simplified constituency boundary map is, > possibly a little bizarrely, one of the best visualisations of that: > > https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3368/location > > See also this Admiralty chart for the Bristol Channel - you can see that > the "Bristol Deep" channel passes between the two islands and leads into > the harbour: > > https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0278/1529/products/OCB-1179.jpg > > Mark > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
On 12/09/2020 21:23, Russ Garrett wrote: I've foolishly now decided to try to get to the bottom of it - the beating of the bounds still doesn't explain why exactly it covers that area (although I'm impressed that the Lord Mayor managed to commandeer a warship to do so!) AIUI, it's because it's the historic maritime navigation route into Bristol and Avonmouth. The simplified constituency boundary map is, possibly a little bizarrely, one of the best visualisations of that: https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3368/location See also this Admiralty chart for the Bristol Channel - you can see that the "Bristol Deep" channel passes between the two islands and leads into the harbour: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0278/1529/products/OCB-1179.jpg Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
On 2020-09-12 22:23, Russ Garrett wrote: > Incidentally, the OSM wiki page for Wales claims that the sea boundary > between Wales and England is not well-defined: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wales#Boundary Then the wiki is wrong. The "Welsh Zone" was most recently defined by the: THE WELSH ZONE (BOUNDARIES AND TRANSFER OF FUNCTIONS) ORDER 2010 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/760/schedule/made___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
On 12/09/2020 21:11, Rob Nickerson wrote: "extremely stupid reasons" in this case relates to an very old tradition where the Lord Mayor of Bristol 'beats the bounds' of the city by rowing/sailing out to the islands. As a consequence a small wedge of the city of Bristol bounds lies within Welsh water. See also this rather oddly shaped map of the Bristol North West constituency: https://members.parliament.uk/constituency/3368/location Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
I've foolishly now decided to try to get to the bottom of it - the beating of the bounds still doesn't explain why exactly it covers that area (although I'm impressed that the Lord Mayor managed to commandeer a warship to do so!) Incidentally, the OSM wiki page for Wales claims that the sea boundary between Wales and England is not well-defined: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wales#Boundary Cheers, Russ On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 21:12, Rob Nickerson wrote: > > "extremely stupid reasons" in this case relates to an very old tradition > where the Lord Mayor of Bristol 'beats the bounds' of the city by > rowing/sailing out to the islands. > > As a consequence a small wedge of the city of Bristol bounds lies within > Welsh water. > > You get a similar situation with Denny Island which lies within English > waters but is part of Monmouthshire. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/7019663.stm > > https://web.archive.org/web/20071012220607/http://www.bristol.gov.uk/ccm/content/press-releases/2007/sep/beating-bristols-water-boundary.en > > Best regards > Rob > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
"extremely stupid reasons" in this case relates to an very old tradition where the Lord Mayor of Bristol 'beats the bounds' of the city by rowing/sailing out to the islands. As a consequence a small wedge of the city of Bristol bounds lies within Welsh water. You get a similar situation with Denny Island which lies within English waters but is part of Monmouthshire. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/7019663.stm https://web.archive.org/web/20071012220607/http://www.bristol.gov.uk/ccm/content/press-releases/2007/sep/beating-bristols-water-boundary.en Best regards Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
This anomaly gives rise to the situation that there is a triangle (more or less) of water near Flat Holm which is simultaneously within the jurisdiction of Wales and the City of Bristol. It probably only matters for things like fishing, as that was basically the reason to define clearly the maritime boundary between England and Wales, fishing and the marine environment (up to 12nm) being Devolved Powers. The City of Bristol is probably the only cross-border local authority in the UK On 2020-09-12 19:53, Russ Garrett wrote: > Oh wait, I remember now. This is correct for extremely stupid reasons > relating to the boundaries of the county of Bristol including a large > chunk of the Bristol Channel. > > I can confirm the boundary in OSM matches the one in OS Boundary Line. > That relation could probably do with a note tag on it, though. > > Cheers, > > Russ > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 18:48, Russ Garrett wrote: > I'm pretty sure Flat Holm is part of Cardiff - Steep Holm is in > England but it also isn't in Bristol as far as I know. There's > definitely something weird going on with the boundaries there but it > also looks like nothing has changed around there in a while. Curious. > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 18:39, Brian Prangle wrote: > This island, in the bristol Channel between Weston super Mare and Barry seems > to be in two countries at once. It's on the Welsh side of the national > boundary but also in South West England City of Bristol. This is either a map > error with the Welsh boundary or a legal anomaly I don't know which. If it's > one of those legal quirks then wouldn't it be better as an exclave of England > in Wales? > > Apologies if this has come up before. > > Regards > > Brian > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > -- > Russ Garrett > r...@garrett.co.uk___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
Oh wait, I remember now. This is correct for extremely stupid reasons relating to the boundaries of the county of Bristol including a large chunk of the Bristol Channel. I can confirm the boundary in OSM matches the one in OS Boundary Line. That relation could probably do with a note tag on it, though. Cheers, Russ On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 18:48, Russ Garrett wrote: > > I'm pretty sure Flat Holm is part of Cardiff - Steep Holm is in > England but it also isn't in Bristol as far as I know. There's > definitely something weird going on with the boundaries there but it > also looks like nothing has changed around there in a while. Curious. > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 18:39, Brian Prangle wrote: > > > > This island, in the bristol Channel between Weston super Mare and Barry > > seems to be in two countries at once. It's on the Welsh side of the > > national boundary but also in South West England City of Bristol. This is > > either a map error with the Welsh boundary or a legal anomaly I don't know > > which. If it's one of those legal quirks then wouldn't it be better as an > > exclave of England in Wales? > > > > Apologies if this has come up before. > > > > Regards > > > > Brian > > ___ > > Talk-GB mailing list > > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > > > -- > Russ Garrett > r...@garrett.co.uk -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
I'm pretty sure Flat Holm is part of Cardiff - Steep Holm is in England but it also isn't in Bristol as far as I know. There's definitely something weird going on with the boundaries there but it also looks like nothing has changed around there in a while. Curious. On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 18:39, Brian Prangle wrote: > > This island, in the bristol Channel between Weston super Mare and Barry seems > to be in two countries at once. It's on the Welsh side of the national > boundary but also in South West England City of Bristol. This is either a map > error with the Welsh boundary or a legal anomaly I don't know which. If it's > one of those legal quirks then wouldn't it be better as an exclave of England > in Wales? > > Apologies if this has come up before. > > Regards > > Brian > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Flatholm Island Boundary Problem
This island, in the bristol Channel between Weston super Mare and Barry seems to be in two countries at once. It's on the Welsh side of the national boundary but also in South West England City of Bristol. This is either a map error with the Welsh boundary or a legal anomaly I don't know which. If it's one of those legal quirks then wouldn't it be better as an exclave of England in Wales? Apologies if this has come up before. Regards Brian ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
