Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[seirra blake]

hmm... point taken. I do want to try making custom maps in the future 
that I'll probably base off of carto, so maybe I'll have a better grasp 
when I start that project


On 5/8/19 10:43 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

It depends on a map. For OSM Carto (current default map style at
the OSM Main site) one may look at source code - for example
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/amenity-points.mss#L43

For other files see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto


8 May 2019, 03:18 by sophietheopos...@yandex.com:

is there any articles on what does/doesn't get used on particular
zoom levels? just figure it wouldn't hurt to double check my
general understanding

On 5/7/19 1:21 PM, Russ Garrett wrote:

On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 12:40, Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com>> wrote:

I don't know anyone who would say "I see a residential
area". Or "I see
a plot of land with planning class C3 or C4".

From a zoomed-out perspective, landuse= (and natural=) is the main
thing you see on the map (especially if buildings aren't
mapped), so I
think it's pretty useful from a cartographic point of view.
It's not
just about what you see on the ground, but how you can turn
that into
a useful map when you're looking at a large area.

There are still chunks of the UK which look empty at medium zoom
levels (e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.4437/-4.8581)
due to lack of landuse mapping.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[seirra blake]

ah, I see what you're saying. so one that is geared towards the public 
may have completely different priorities etc.. I guess it's something 
I'll understand better over time


On 5/8/19 10:25 AM, David Woolley wrote:

On 08/05/2019 02:18, seirra blake wrote:
is there any articles on what does/doesn't get used on particular 
zoom levels? just figure it wouldn't hurt to double check my general 
understanding


That assumes that zoom level has any meaning to the tool being used to 
access the map.


For slippy maps, it depends on the  particular slippy map and will 
change from time to time, depending on the target audience and 
judgements about the level of clutter in the rendered image.


The only real way of finding out is to look at the code used.  As far 
as I can remember, for Mapnik, as used in the default slippy map on 
www.openstreetmap.org, it is quite easy to see the rules for when 
things get rendered.


The target audience for default slippy map is mappers, not the the 
general public.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Andy Townsend]

On 08/05/2019 02:18, seirra blake wrote:
is there any articles on what does/doesn't get used on particular zoom 
levels? just figure it wouldn't hurt to double check my general 
understanding



This cropped up on the forum recently - see 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=747326#p747326 .


Anything that showed this would need to look at any transformations in 
lua (that basically just change one tag to another), data selection 
criteria in the .mml file and things like "if zoom > x" in the .mss 
files (as Mateusz has already mentioned).


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

It depends on a map. For OSM Carto (current default map style at
the OSM Main site) one may look at source code - for example
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/amenity-points.mss#L43
 


For other files see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto


8 May 2019, 03:18 by sophietheopos...@yandex.com:

> is there any articles on what does/doesn't get used on particular zoom 
> levels? just figure it wouldn't hurt to double check my general understanding
>
> On 5/7/19 1:21 PM, Russ Garrett wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 12:40, Martin Wynne <>> mar...@templot.com 
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know anyone who would say "I see a residential area". Or "I see
>>> a plot of land with planning class C3 or C4".
>>>
>> From a zoomed-out perspective, landuse= (and natural=) is the main
>> thing you see on the map (especially if buildings aren't mapped), so I
>> think it's pretty useful from a cartographic point of view. It's not
>> just about what you see on the ground, but how you can turn that into
>> a useful map when you're looking at a large area.
>>
>> There are still chunks of the UK which look empty at medium zoom
>> levels (e.g. >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.4437/-4.8581 
>> >> )
>> due to lack of landuse mapping.
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[David Woolley]

On 08/05/2019 02:18, seirra blake wrote:
is there any articles on what does/doesn't get used on particular zoom 
levels? just figure it wouldn't hurt to double check my general 
understanding


That assumes that zoom level has any meaning to the tool being used to 
access the map.


For slippy maps, it depends on the  particular slippy map and will 
change from time to time, depending on the target audience and 
judgements about the level of clutter in the rendered image.


The only real way of finding out is to look at the code used.  As far as 
I can remember, for Mapnik, as used in the default slippy map on 
www.openstreetmap.org, it is quite easy to see the rules for when things 
get rendered.


The target audience for default slippy map is mappers, not the the 
general public.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[seirra blake]

is there any articles on what does/doesn't get used on particular zoom 
levels? just figure it wouldn't hurt to double check my general 
understanding


On 5/7/19 1:21 PM, Russ Garrett wrote:

On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 12:40, Martin Wynne  wrote:

I don't know anyone who would say "I see a residential area". Or "I see
a plot of land with planning class C3 or C4".

 From a zoomed-out perspective, landuse= (and natural=) is the main
thing you see on the map (especially if buildings aren't mapped), so I
think it's pretty useful from a cartographic point of view. It's not
just about what you see on the ground, but how you can turn that into
a useful map when you're looking at a large area.

There are still chunks of the UK which look empty at medium zoom
levels (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.4437/-4.8581)
due to lack of landuse mapping.



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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[seirra blake]

the way I see it, what osm is for... is whatever people want to use it 
for really. to me, osm is great because you can achieve a detail like no 
other, if you see a problem, you can either fix it there and then, or 
mark it for fixing later a lot better than say for example google where 
they mostly just care about POI information and housing developments 
take forever to appear. I also find osm great for pedestrian routing, 
when I find a shortcut not on the map? I can add it, and in an hour it's 
there for me, and everyone else too, that's pretty powerful, in a way. 
but that's just me, I know people that love using it for biking, I see a 
lot of cool infographics/custom maps, I see people using it for hiking, 
using it for driving... osm is a powerful map, but it owes this to the 
strong community behind it.


you, and pretty much everyone else, would look at it and say "that's a 
house in a garden". so until someone with better knowledge proves 
otherwise... it's a house in a garden. the nice thing about osm is that 
if you make a mistake tagging it, someone in the future can fix it for 
you. sure it might not be any time soon... but in that case it's 
probably not hurting anyone, either, if no one felt the motivation to fix it


On 5/7/19 3:03 PM, Martin Wynne wrote:

On 07/05/2019 14:38, David Woolley wrote:


However, I wouldn't say the primary purpose of the area you were 
asking about is to be a garden; I would say it is somewhere to 
reside, and the gardens form a subsidiary part of it, and should be 
represented with nested areas.


Thanks David.

But is that what OSM is for -- to describe the *purpose* of a thing?

I thought the idea was describe the *physical* object and its 
location? Physically it is a house built in a garden.


For all we know, it may not be anyone's residence -- it could be being 
used as offices, say. In that case landuse=residential would be wrong, 
it should be landuse=commercial. But it's still a house in a garden.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7 May 2019, 14:30 by mar...@templot.com:

> This idea of primary and secondary tags is new to me. There is no such 
> distinction in the iD editor -- all applied tags are simply listed in 
> alphabetical order.
>
Primary tag in iD editor is one at the top, with an icon (selecting another 
removes previous one).

Secondary tags are properties listed in fields below it.

For example highway=motorway would be primary tag and maxspeed, bridge=yes, 
tunnel=yes,
ref etc would be secondary tags.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7 May 2019, 13:17 by mar...@templot.com:

> On 07/05/2019 11:34, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>> Your OSM example look fine to me - a single property is still where people 
>> reside. Any other details, such as garden, should be mapped individually 
>> within that area.
>>
>
> Thanks Dave. But in that case, why in the iD editor when I change 
> "Residential Area" to "Garden" does it remove the landuse=residential tag?
>
Because iD editor was designed in this way.

> Should I be creating a duplicate way as a "Garden" on the same nodes?
>
In cases where both have exactly the same area following would be probably 
betetr

>
> Or should I leave it as "Residential Area" and add a leisure=garden tag?
>
But I would expect building=house area to be a part of landuse=residential and 
to not
be a part of leisure=garden.

Also, in many cases other parts of landuse=residential may be not a a part of a 
garden.
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7 May 2019, 14:38 by mar...@templot.com:

> On 07/05/2019 13:21, Russ Garrett wrote:
>
>>> From a zoomed-out perspective, landuse= (and natural=) is the main
>>>
>> thing you see on the map (especially if buildings aren't mapped), so I
>> think it's pretty useful from a cartographic point of view. It's not
>> just about what you see on the ground, but how you can turn that into
>> a useful map when you're looking at a large area.
>>
>
> Thanks Russ. That's what I was getting at when I started this topic. How many 
> houses make a residential area? Does it make sense to apply it to a single 
> isolated house?
>
I see nothing wrong with landuse=residential around an isolated house.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Martin Wynne]

On 07/05/2019 15:40, David Woolley wrote:

Describing the physical object is a way of objectively mapping, but if 
that is all you do, you don't need a map; just use the aerial imagery 
directly.


Yes, but the aerial imagery isn't available *free* for anyone to use for 
anything. It's not edited and kept up-to-date until fresh images are 
taken. Some of the aerial imagery we use is years out of date.


It doesn't show names, it doesn't show rights of way, and it's of little 
use in wooded areas to see details below the tree cover, especially 
watercourses and footbridges. Try planning a footpath walk using only 
aerial imagery. :(


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[David Woolley]

On 07/05/2019 15:22, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:


If a pub has external land other than the building itself a similar 
schema to 'schools' should be used: draw an enclosing polygon around the 
extent of the grounds & tag it with amenity=pub & any other details such 
as name, address, website etc. All other areas parking, garden etc 
should be mapped with the boundary The actual buildings should only be 
tagged with building=yes/pub.


Agreed.  I was commenting that it is common to see the pub building 
tagged as the pub, when the whole grounds should be.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[David Woolley]

On 07/05/2019 15:03, Martin Wynne wrote:



But is that what OSM is for -- to describe the *purpose* of a thing?


The original purpose of OSM was to break the monopoly on map data held 
by commercial mappers, by taking advantage of the ready availability of 
GPS equipment, so the purposes for which the data would be used would be 
all applications for which OS data was used, with a bias towards 
applications that needed a lot of data.


I thought the idea was describe the *physical* object and its location? 
Physically it is a house built in a garden.


Describing the physical object is a way of objectively mapping, but if 
that is all you do, you don't need a map; just use the aerial imagery 
directly.


Saying that something consists of a building within a garden is actually 
going beyond describing what can be seen, as it basically says that 
building is subordinate to the garden.  Whilst I wouldn't want you do do 
this, if you really want to map without making any inferences, map the 
garden as natural= and map it in just those areas that are not house, 
drive, hard standing, etc.


For all we know, it may not be anyone's residence -- it could be being 
used as offices, say. In that case landuse=residential would be wrong, 
it should be landuse=commercial. But it's still a house in a garden.


It's a building, partly surrounded by grass.

landuse and house both imply a level of abstraction based on judgements 
of the intended use that go beyond a literal description of what you can 
see.


Although I picked on the problem with having both fence and garden main 
tags in the housing estate link, that does correctly show how you would 
use garden, when micro-mapping.  (I didn't pick up the fact that the way 
the fences are mapped is making assertions about the legal ownership of 
the fences which are probably wrong.)



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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

On 07/05/2019 14:38, David Woolley wrote:

On 07/05/2019 13:30, Martin Wynne wrote:
This idea of primary and secondary tags is new to me. There is no 
such distinction in the iD editor -- all applied tags are simply 
listed in alphabetical order.


Things like name, height, and colour are normally considered secondary.


Yes. Think of them as 'adjective' tags



Things like landuse, building and leisure are considered primary.

Generally if you don't have a primary tag, the object won't get 
rendered.  If you have more than one primary tag, it becomes difficult 
for renderer to choose how to interpret the object. However, if there 
is no great conflict, it is sometimes acceptable to combine, primary tags.


Indeed. If it's a polygon object It often comes down to whether it needs 
to be rendered with a fill pattern. For example, a landuse=farmland 
polygon should be able to render with an added barrier=hedge, but as 
soon as the standard rendering, OSM-Carto, finds a primary tag it 
assumes it's the only one & stops looking for alternatives.






Often combining primary tags indicates that you are oversimplifying, 
e.g. it is common to have both shop and building, but that is probably 
wrong, because the shop often doesn't occupy the whole building. 
Similarly a pub may really be the gardens, as well as the building.


If a pub has external land other than the building itself a similar 
schema to 'schools' should be used: draw an enclosing polygon around the 
extent of the grounds & tag it with amenity=pub & any other details such 
as name, address, website etc. All other areas parking, garden etc 
should be mapped with the boundary The actual buildings should only be 
tagged with building=yes/pub.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Martin Wynne]

On 07/05/2019 14:38, David Woolley wrote:


However, I wouldn't say the primary purpose of the area you were asking 
about is to be a garden; I would say it is somewhere to reside, and the 
gardens form a subsidiary part of it, and should be represented with 
nested areas.


Thanks David.

But is that what OSM is for -- to describe the *purpose* of a thing?

I thought the idea was describe the *physical* object and its location? 
Physically it is a house built in a garden.


For all we know, it may not be anyone's residence -- it could be being 
used as offices, say. In that case landuse=residential would be wrong, 
it should be landuse=commercial. But it's still a house in a garden.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[David Woolley]

On 07/05/2019 13:30, Martin Wynne wrote:
This idea of primary and secondary tags is new to me. There is no such 
distinction in the iD editor -- all applied tags are simply listed in 
alphabetical order.


Things like name, height, and colour are normally considered secondary.

Things like landuse, building and leisure are considered primary.

Generally if you don't have a primary tag, the object won't get 
rendered.  If you have more than one primary tag, it becomes difficult 
for renderer to choose how to interpret the object.  However, if there 
is no great conflict, it is sometimes acceptable to combine, primary tags.


Often combining primary tags indicates that you are oversimplifying, 
e.g. it is common to have both shop and building, but that is probably 
wrong, because the shop often doesn't occupy the whole building. 
Similarly a pub may really be the gardens, as well as the building.


leisure and landuse conflict because they are both really specifying 
land use.


I think your biggest problem though is expecting that there is one 
correct way of doing things.  In a project with distributed decisions 
making, you are just not going to have everyone agree on what OSM is for 
and how things should be mapped.


However, I wouldn't say the primary purpose of the area you were asking 
about is to be a garden; I would say it is somewhere to reside, and the 
gardens form a subsidiary part of it, and should be represented with 
nested areas.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Russ Garrett]

On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 13:39, Martin Wynne  wrote:
> Thanks Russ. That's what I was getting at when I started this topic. How
> many houses make a residential area? Does it make sense to apply it to a
> single isolated house?

I reckon it does, although it depends on your level of patience. The
ideal is that everywhere is covered by a landuse/natural tag. Stuff
like gardens, buildings, etc, are a higher level of detail which live
inside the broad landuse areas.

Cheers,

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Martin Wynne]

On 07/05/2019 13:21, Russ Garrett wrote:



From a zoomed-out perspective, landuse= (and natural=) is the main

thing you see on the map (especially if buildings aren't mapped), so I
think it's pretty useful from a cartographic point of view. It's not
just about what you see on the ground, but how you can turn that into
a useful map when you're looking at a large area.


Thanks Russ. That's what I was getting at when I started this topic. How 
many houses make a residential area? Does it make sense to apply it to a 
single isolated house?


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Martin Wynne]

On 07/05/2019 13:04, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:

Primarily, map 
what you see on the ground, Any legalese requirements (access 
restrictions etc) can be added as secondary tags.


Thanks Dave. In that case, I would think landuse=residential would be a 
secondary tag on something else more visible? The primary tag would be 
the visible garden.


This idea of primary and secondary tags is new to me. There is no such 
distinction in the iD editor -- all applied tags are simply listed in 
alphabetical order.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Russ Garrett]

On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 12:40, Martin Wynne  wrote:
> I don't know anyone who would say "I see a residential area". Or "I see
> a plot of land with planning class C3 or C4".

From a zoomed-out perspective, landuse= (and natural=) is the main
thing you see on the map (especially if buildings aren't mapped), so I
think it's pretty useful from a cartographic point of view. It's not
just about what you see on the ground, but how you can turn that into
a useful map when you're looking at a large area.

There are still chunks of the UK which look empty at medium zoom
levels (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/50.4437/-4.8581)
due to lack of landuse mapping.

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

On 07/05/2019 12:40, Martin Wynne wrote:

Are we trying to create a legal reference document?

Or a description of what a visitor would see on the ground?


From OSM's main welcome page:

"OpenStreetMap is a place for mapping things that are both /real and 
current"

https://www.openstreetmap.org/welcome
/
Real as in physical, current as in still physically there (OSM should 
not be mapping razed buildings or the routes of long gone railways)




If I look at the place I linked, I see a house in a garden and a 
hedge. If you ask most folk what they see, they would say the same.


I don't know anyone who would say "I see a residential area". Or "I 
see a plot of land with planning class C3 or C4".


If the duck test is applied, your first comment prevails. Primarily, map 
what you see on the ground, Any legalese requirements (access 
restrictions etc) can be added as secondary tags.
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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[David Woolley]

On 07/05/2019 12:40, Martin Wynne wrote:


I think this goes to the heart of my (mis)understanding of what OSM is for?

Are we trying to create a legal reference document?

Or a description of what a visitor would see on the ground?



We are trying to create something that serves several purposes.

We are not actually trying to create a legal document, but we are trying 
create something that is useful to people making planning decisions and 
trying to understand the nature of the area.


The reason we cannot produce a legal document is that we cannot fulfil 
the requirements of producing something that is definitively correct, 
but for many purposes things only have to generally correct, not legally 
correct.


In this case, I wouldn't have cut out the farmland at all, around the 
road and the house, especially if the house turns out to be a farm 
house.  I might have nested landuse=residential, for the curtilage of 
the house.  It would be up to a data consumer to decide whether such an 
isolated landuse=residential was relevant to its needs to know about 
landuse.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/112368662



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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Martin Wynne]

On 07/05/2019 12:04, David Woolley wrote:
I would say it was anything that was landuse=residential, and, in the 
UK, that would basically be anything where the primary planning class 
was C3 or C4.


Thanks David.

I think this goes to the heart of my (mis)understanding of what OSM is for?

Are we trying to create a legal reference document?

Or a description of what a visitor would see on the ground?

If I look at the place I linked, I see a house in a garden and a hedge. 
If you ask most folk what they see, they would say the same.


I don't know anyone who would say "I see a residential area". Or "I see 
a plot of land with planning class C3 or C4".


Given that such information is available elsewhere, does it need to be 
in OSM? Does anyone use OSM for such legal purposes? On the other hand, 
where else are you going to find out that a property has a hedge on one 
side and a fence on the other?


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

On 07/05/2019 12:17, Martin Wynne wrote:

On 07/05/2019 11:34, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
Your OSM example look fine to me - a single property is still where 
people reside. Any other details, such as garden, should be mapped 
individually within that area.


Thanks Dave. But in that case, why in the iD editor when I change 
"Residential Area" to "Garden" does it remove the landuse=residential 
tag?



Specifically for the iD editor: I've no idea. The guy responsible for it 
has some strange tagging schema notions. It's why I don't use it.


But most editors will make decisions that an object can only have one 
'primary' tag. In this instance leisure & landuse don't mix, which is 
why I said they needed to be mapped separately.





Should I be creating a duplicate way as a "Garden" on the same nodes?
if garden extends to the extent of the landuse area, then you can, but 
not it's not essential.


One place you shouldn't attach polygons using the same nodes is to 
'highway' ways. They represent an infinitesimally thin centre line with 
no road width implied. In this instance, residential areas should only 
be mapped to the boundary of the properties.




Or should I leave it as "Residential Area" and add a leisure=garden 
tag? When I do that, the OSM standard map doesn't render the garden.


See above

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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[David Woolley]

On 07/05/2019 12:17, Martin Wynne wrote:

On 07/05/2019 11:34, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
Your OSM example look fine to me - a single property is still where 
people reside. Any other details, such as garden, should be mapped 
individually within that area.


Thanks Dave. But in that case, why in the iD editor when I change 
"Residential Area" to "Garden" does it remove the landuse=residential tag?


To stop you having conflicting main tags.


Should I be creating a duplicate way as a "Garden" on the same nodes?


If you are going to micromap the garden, it should exclude the house and 
the car parking area, so it won't be using the same nodes.




Or should I leave it as "Residential Area" and add a leisure=garden tag? 
When I do that, the OSM standard map doesn't render the garden.


Again you are giving something two different main tags and that will 
confuse most renderers.  On the other hand, you shouldn't be basing your 
tagging on what gets rendered.  (Although I wouldn't advise mapping the 
average city front yard as parking space, or the average but to let 
front yard a recycling area, it would not be be technically wrong to do 
so, even though it would produce an ugly rendering.


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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Martin Wynne]

On 07/05/2019 11:34, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
Your OSM example look fine to me - a single property is still where 
people reside. Any other details, such as garden, should be mapped 
individually within that area.


Thanks Dave. But in that case, why in the iD editor when I change 
"Residential Area" to "Garden" does it remove the landuse=residential tag?


Should I be creating a duplicate way as a "Garden" on the same nodes?

Or should I leave it as "Residential Area" and add a leisure=garden tag? 
When I do that, the OSM standard map doesn't render the garden.


Thanks,

Martin.



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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[David Woolley]

On 07/05/2019 11:11, Martin Wynne wrote:
What is a "residential area" in the iD editor? How many dwellings are 
needed in what proximity to become one? Is it a physical plot of land on 
which at least one person lives? Or the usual meaning of a 
village/hamlet/housing estate/suburb where a number of people live?


I would say it was anything that was landuse=residential, and, in the 
UK, that would basically be anything where the primary planning class 
was C3 or C4.


However OSM usage is always fuzzy.


In my patch there are lots of instances where a single house or an 
isolated pair of cottages along a country road have been mapped as a 
"residential area". Which seems a strange use of words to me.


OSM land uses can be nested, and landuse=residential is the only way I 
know of of showing the curtilage of a house, so if there is nothing 
better it could be on a such a micro scale.  If you have a gated 
development, or an estate with communal gardens, I would consider using 
a nested landuse=residential.


I tend to change them to leisure=garden, access=private. When I do that, 


If you are going to micromap to that extent, you should exclude the 
house itself.I would suggest that whole plot would be 
landuse=residential, and if the garden was of particular scenic value, 
it should be placed on top of that.



the iD editor removes the landuse=residential tag. Should it? Should I 
put it back?  I also put a fence or hedge or wall around or between them 
if visible on Bing, add the buildings, and a name if it's known to me or 
shown on OS OpenData.


Very few people would map to that level of detail.  Some people take the 
view that you should not map curtilages, because they are difficult to 
verify, but I think this is normally possible to do with reasonable 
accuracy (actually even Land Registry property maps only given 
approximate boundaries).  On the other hand, I consider house numbers 
much more important than buildings or curtilages.


But is that the correct thing to do? If I do one, am I obliged to do all 
the others nearby? Users of OSM might legitimately wonder why some 
properties and residents are singled out for this treatment, and others 
are not? Should we concentrate on adding detail, or aim for uniformity 
of treatment?


The level of detail in OSM is always going to vary widely, not least 
because different people have different priorities.


Although some people cut schools and parks out of landuse=residential, 
councils tend not to see it that way, but rather as those being 
allowable in such areas.  OSM generally expects data users to understand 
that, for some purposes, e.g. rendering, a nested school or park 
overrides a general landuse classification.



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Re: [Talk-GB] What is a residential area?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

Your OSM example look fine to me - a single property is still where 
people reside. Any other details, such as garden, should be mapped 
individually within that area.


The mistake early in OSM's life was to use this tag to indicate a 
village/town/city as a whole, with a blanket polygon covering the whole 
urban area, but now most contributors are detailing it around schools, 
parks etc.


One problem that's still not been fully resolved is areas of dual usage, 
ie residential properties above shops. Personally I lean towards mapping 
the shops clearly as they're more likely to be searched for.


DaveF


On 07/05/2019 11:11, Martin Wynne wrote:
What is a "residential area" in the iD editor? How many dwellings are 
needed in what proximity to become one? Is it a physical plot of land 
on which at least one person lives? Or the usual meaning of a 
village/hamlet/housing estate/suburb where a number of people live?


In my patch there are lots of instances where a single house or an 
isolated pair of cottages along a country road have been mapped as a 
"residential area". Which seems a strange use of words to me.


See for example:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/611028880

Google streetview:

 https://goo.gl/maps/yk1SNzrmRPpvZL3Y6

Perhaps it's the iD editor at fault? landuse=residential is strictly 
correct, but calling it a "residential area" doesn't accord with most 
folks understanding of the term.


I tend to change them to leisure=garden, access=private. When I do 
that, the iD editor removes the landuse=residential tag. Should it? 
Should I put it back?  I also put a fence or hedge or wall around or 
between them if visible on Bing, add the buildings, and a name if it's 
known to me or shown on OS OpenData.


But is that the correct thing to do? If I do one, am I obliged to do 
all the others nearby? Users of OSM might legitimately wonder why some 
properties and residents are singled out for this treatment, and 
others are not? Should we concentrate on adding detail, or aim for 
uniformity of treatment?


cheers,

Martin.

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