Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

I posted a changeset comment in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76520412


Dec 6, 2020, 08:00 by m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us:

> Vào lúc 03:01 2020-12-04, Frederik Ramm đã viết:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> when reverting an edit this morning I noticed that the node for
>> Washington (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/158368533) has myriad
>> name:xx tags, many of which seem to be some variant of "Washington D.C."
>> (with or without commas or dots), whereas the "local" name seems to be
>> just Washington, without the D.C.
>>
>> As a native speaker of German I can assure you that we don't call the US
>> capital "Washington D.C." as the name:de tag claims; I would assume that
>> it is similar for most other languages. The German-language OSM map at
>> https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=38.70174=-76.93764
>> has a mechanism where it displays the German name and then, if the local
>> name is different, the local name below; since the German name
>> "Washington D.C." and the local name "Washington" are different, this
>> leads to a somewhat funny display (whereas the logic works ok for other
>> US cities).
>>
>> I could of course fix the German name but I think that it might need a
>> more thorough review and I don't feel competent for that.
>>
>> Two name tags (and this is checking only those that use Roman letters)
>> look like they might be entirely wrong and refer to the District of
>> Columbia only:
>>
>> name:lfn=Distrito de Columbia
>> name:mi=Takiwā o Columbia
>>
>
> Most of these localized names were added in changeset 76520412 [1] based on 
> labels on the associated Wikidata item. [2] So this time it was not a case of 
> promoting a particular minority language. In fact, I don't think much 
> attention was paid to the names being added, or perhaps the Tajik name 
> would've remained to the effect of "Washington District of Columbia" instead 
> of being changed to "Washington (city)".
>
> This same changeset changed the name of the District of Columbia relation to 
> "Washington, D.C." in many languages, including English. [3] This results in 
> Nominatim returning results like "Washington, D.C., Washington, D.C." I think 
> it was inappropriate to rename the district this way. I think it was another 
> oversight on the part of the changeset's author, because Wikidata has a 
> distinct entity for the district. [4]
>
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76520412
> [2] https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q61
> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/162069
> [4] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3551781
>
>> Then again, I've heard people say "I was in D.C." and mean the city, so
>> perhaps that *is* a legitimate name for the city? Maybe someone in the
>> US community wants to have a look and do this right.
>>
>> It is a bit of a conundrum in OSM - we usually say that local knowledge
>> tops everything, but then again for many of the languages there might
>> not even *be* a local Washington mapper in OSM ;)
>>
>
> As others have pointed out, a local would refer to the city as "D.C." even 
> while acknowledging that the city's formal written name is "Washington" or 
> "Washington, D.C." I think common sense would require us to relegate "D.C." 
> to loc_name or short_name, just as a general-purpose, global map would only 
> shorten San Francisco to the local shorthand "S.F." and Salt Lake City to 
> "SLC" when space is at a premium.
>
> Thanks in part to the D.C.-based Voice of America, I'm sure you could find a 
> local to get the translated name of Washington, D.C., for many languages, but 
> I'm not confident they would choose the same names as Wikidata.
>
> For example, both VOA and the local Vietnamese media still generally call the 
> city "Hoa Thịnh Đốn", a relic of the early 20th century when Vietnamese still 
> borrowed Chinese characters for world-class cities. "Hoa Thịnh Đốn" is easy 
> for a Vietnamese speaker to pronounce, but it only kind of sounds like 
> "Washington" in the way that an eggcorn sounds like its original phrase. It's 
> archaic and probably unknown to the younger generation in Vietnam. The 
> Vietnamese government prefers the phonetic respelling "Oa-sinh-tơn", which 
> conversely is unknown to older Vietnamese Americans.
>
> When I originally tagged the D.C. node with Vietnamese names in changeset 
> 5439052, I intended for the fallback to be "Washington", as a compromise 
> between the traditional and more modern names. But I hesitated to explicitly 
> tag name:vi=Washington because it's incompatible with the Vietnamese 
> alphabet. I guess I should've added it as a bulwark against armchair 
> linguistics. Changeset 76520412 set name:vi to "Washington, D.C.", which to a 
> Vietnamese speaker is rather like labeling New Orleans as "New Orleans, LA" 
> on a map.
>
> Long story short, I find changeset 76520412 to be problematic in the 
> languages I know, let alone the many languages I don't. Thanks for bringing 
> it to our attention.
>
> -- 
> 

Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Dec 4, 2020, 12:43 by frede...@remote.org:

> I have often argued for just dropping name:X if it is the name as name,
> because I would assume that every language-specific map or other use
> case would revert to the name tag if no language-specific name was present.
>
> The counter-argument was usually that if Washington has a
> name:de=Washington then you positively know that this is the name used
> in Germany, whereas if it doesn't have a name:de tag it might just be
> "not yet mapped".
>
Also, with explicit language tags you can do fallback to other languages
(as described in detail in other posting).

This way you can do "I prefer name:pl, use name:de otherwise, if neither is
present use name:en, if nothing is available, use name tag".
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Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

name:pl tag is fortunately correct


Dec 4, 2020, 12:33 by mikel.ma...@gmail.com:

> Hi
>
> In DC, we just say DC usually. Across the states, it's Washington DC to 
> distinguish from Washington state.
>
> I'm not sure what the "name" tag should be, but I am wondering what the point 
> of the translations are which simply duplicate the default name. Is it like a 
> marker to say "don't try calling this place anything else"? Is that common, 
> seems unneccesary?
>

It may be useful. For example lets say that I want to display names with labels
in Polish, with English labels as fallback.

After all, some location in China or Japan may have specified name:en, but not 
name:pl

So name:pl value would be taken as the first one, name:en if name:pl is missing
and name tag if both are missing.

But what happens when some object has Polish name[1], tagged in name and 
different
name tagged in name:en?

Then name:en would be displayed, what would be avoided if name tag would be 
repeated
in name:pl tag.


[1](maybe because it is city in Poland,
maybe because it is shop in USA selling primarily to Polish-speaking people, 
maybe
it is a school for children of emigrants)



(this is based on actual project, both from my own experience and someone else 
from Poland
run independently in the same issue)

PS: No, region-based rules are not working fully even for languages that are 
nearly completely
dominating in a given region and are nearly not present elsewhere, due to 
"nearly" part.
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Re: [Talk-us] Please unsubscribe me.

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

I triggered unsubscription for natf...@gmail.com

You still need to confirm this action, as explained in email
that should be send to you


Nov 23, 2020, 22:06 by ian.d...@gmail.com:

> Hi Nathan,
>
> You need to unsubscribe yourself. Please follow the instructions here: > 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 3:05 PM Natfoot <> natf...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> Please unsubscribe me I am done with OSM for a while. 
>>
>> Nathan P
>> email: >> natf...@gmail.com
>> ___
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>>

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Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Extremely long Amtrak route relations / coastline v. water

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Nov 22, 2020, 17:08 by tagg...@openstreetmap.org:

> Likewise we need to stop software developers from expectingcontributors 
> to add data purely because they can't be bothered/notcompetent enough to 
> write a few lines of code. (OSM-carto demandingboundaries on ways)
>
[citation needed] for OSM-carto demandingboundaries on ways

Also [citation needed] for OSM-Carto support for boundary relations being 
extremely easy to implement

>  & numerous routers expecting multiplefoodways to criss-cross pedestrian 
> areas, are just two examples) 
>
Also [citation needed] for that reason is
"can't be bothered/notcompetent enough to write a few lines of code" 

>  If developers are offended at receiving suggestions on how toimprove 
> their software, or even have it criticized, then they shouldrescind it. 
>
If you insult others, claim that something is trivial to implement (it is not),
while something you demand is implemented already and suggest that
anyone offended by your comments should stop releasing software

I would say that it is quite poor way to encourage volunteer
contributors to implement what you want.
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Re: [Talk-us] Import licensing waiver

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

It was a correct one - you were aware about it and learned about another
one that may be more useful :)


Oct 9, 2020, 20:05 by lobstereat...@airmail.cc:

> Ok, thank you for the guidance. I will forward to legal-talk, and I
> apologize if this wasn't the correct mailing list.
>
> On Fri, 2020-10-09 at 15:44 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> AFAIK "makes no claim as to the usefulness, accuracy or completeness"
>> is not a problem, whoever is doing imports must do this part anyway.
>>
>> But what is the license of the data?
>> Maybe "Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning Agency has no objections"
>> is sufficient (I am not a lawyer) - but only  if that agency holds
>> full rights to the dataset
>>
>> As usual, legal-talk has greater chance to get response with someone
>> with greater
>> legal knowledge.
>>
>> Oct 9, 2020, 14:38 by lobstereat...@airmail.cc:
>> > Hello,
>> > 
>> > I have been in contact with the Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning
>> > Agency (SOCPA), an Onondaga County NY agency, about the licensing
>> > of a
>> > building footprint layer they have. My intention was to import this
>> > layer after further review by the OSM community and myself. After
>> > contacting the agency head about a possible waiver for OSM use (
>> > along
>> > the lines of
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Getting_permission#Letter_Template_1
>> > ), I received this response:
>> > 
>> > The Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning Agency has no objections to
>> > geodata derived in part from the "Onondaga County Building
>> > Footprints"
>> > layer being incorporated into the OpenStreetMap project geodata
>> > database and displayed publicly on the map. By using the data,
>> > however, the OpenStreetMap project agrees that Onondaga County
>> > makes no
>> > claim as to the usefulness, accuracy or completeness of the
>> > county's
>> > building footprint file, and the county will not be held
>> > responsible
>> > for any omissions or inaccuracies. This data is provided as is and
>> > there is no guarantee that it is suitable for any particular
>> > purpose. 
>> > Your use of the data is at your own risk. 
>> > 
>> > Is this licensing favorable for use by the OSM community?
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ___
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>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Import licensing waiver

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

AFAIK "makes no claim as to the usefulness, accuracy or completeness"is not a 
problem, whoever is doing imports must do this part anyway.

But what is the license of the data?
Maybe "Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning Agency has no objections"
is sufficient (I am not a lawyer) - but only  if that agency holds full rights 
to the dataset

As usual, legal-talk has greater chance to get response with someone with 
greater
legal knowledge.

Oct 9, 2020, 14:38 by lobstereat...@airmail.cc:

> Hello,
>
> I have been in contact with the Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning
> Agency (SOCPA), an Onondaga County NY agency, about the licensing of a
> building footprint layer they have. My intention was to import this
> layer after further review by the OSM community and myself. After
> contacting the agency head about a possible waiver for OSM use ( along
> the lines of
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Getting_permission#Letter_Template_1
> ), I received this response:
>
> The Syracuse-Onondaga County Planning Agency has no objections to
> geodata derived in part from the "Onondaga County Building Footprints"
> layer being incorporated into the OpenStreetMap project geodata
> database and displayed publicly on the map.  By using the data,
> however, the OpenStreetMap project agrees that Onondaga County makes no
> claim as to the usefulness, accuracy or completeness of the county's
> building footprint file, and the county will not be held responsible
> for any omissions or inaccuracies. This data is provided as is and
> there is no guarantee that it is suitable for any particular purpose. 
> Your use of the data is at your own risk. 
>
> Is this licensing favorable for use by the OSM community?
>
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Sep 29, 2020, 11:15 by burke...@gmail.com:

> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:35 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us
>  wrote:
>
>>
>> 29 wrz 2020, 02:02 od b...@mapwise.com:
>>
>> An example unhelpful comment:
>>
>>  "YES GEORGIA IS BADLY-TAGGED TRUNK FREE! Control is provided by 
>> floridaeditor; i.e., if anybody tries to change one back I will review the 
>> edit and keep/revert as needed."
>>
>> WTF
>>
>> Brian aka grouper
>>
>> Can you link to changeset where it happened?
>>
>> This alone is enough to involve DWG
>> and I would expect at least 0-time block
>> (message displayed on login).
>>
>
> Mateusz,
>
> The specific one that Brian quoted is here:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/87987046
>
Thanks! It is quite old and I see that at that time DWG already contacted
that person, so for now I just left a message asking to
cease making such comments .

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Re: [Talk-us] Recent Trunk road edits

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

29 wrz 2020, 02:02 od b...@mapwise.com:
> An example unhelpful comment:
>
>     "> YES GEORGIA IS BADLY-TAGGED TRUNKFREE! Control is provided 
> by floridaeditor; i.e., if anybodytries to change one back I will 
> review the edit and keep/revertas needed."
>
> WTF
>
> Brian aka grouper
>
Can you link to changeset where it happened?

This alone is enough to involve DWG
and I would expect at least 0-time block
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Re: [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

I am a bit dubious about value of updating fire=perimeter

It is something that changes extremely quickly, we should
not encourage people to survey perimeter of ACTIVE fire,
OSM is doomed to be strictly worse source of fire perimeter
than alternative sources

> fire has absolutely enormous impact to what we do and might map here,
both present and future.  The aftermath of this fire (>85,000 acres this fire 
alone)
will last for decades, and for OSM to not reflect this in the map

Obviously, we should (try to) update map where situation changed.

Delete building that will not be rebuild (mark them as destroyed:building=*
until aerial imagery will update)
[deleting buildings and remapping them as they get reconstructed may
be viable in cases of heavy mapper presence]

Delete other permanently destroyed objects and so on.

> Do we have landcover tags which could replace landuse=forest
or natural=wood with something like natural=fire_scarred?

AFAIK nothing established, see
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-March/035435.html
for related discussion about wind damage.

Sep 24, 2020, 23:30 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> I didn't get a single reply on this (see below), which I find surprising, 
> especially as there are currently even larger fires that are more widespread 
> all across the Western United States.
>
> I now ask if there are additional, appropriate polygons with tags I'm not 
> familiar with regarding landcover that might be added to the map (as 
> "landuse=forest" might be strictly true now only in a 'zoning' sense, as many 
> of the actual trees that MAKE these forests have sadly burned down, or 
> substantially so).
>
> Considering that there are literally millions and millions of acres of 
> (newly) burned areas (forest, scrub, grassland, residential, commercial, 
> industrial, public, private...), I'm surprised that OSM doesn't have some 
> well-pondered and actual tags that reflect this situation.  My initial 
> tagging of this (simply tagged, but enormous) polygon as "fire=perimeter" was 
> coined on my part, but as I search wiki, taginfo and Overpass Turbo queries 
> for similar data in the map, I come up empty.
>
> First, do others think it is important that we map these?  I say yes, as this 
> fire has absolutely enormous impact to what we do and might map here, both 
> present and future.  The aftermath of this fire (>85,000 acres this fire 
> alone) will last for decades, and for OSM to not reflect this in the map 
> (somehow, better bolstered than a simple, though huge, polygon tagged with 
> fire=perimeter, start_date and end_date) seems OSM "cartographically misses 
> something."  I know that HOT mappers map the "present- and aftermath-" of 
> humanitarian disasters, I've HOT-participated myself.  So, considering the 
> thousands of structures that burned (most of them homes), tens of thousands 
> of acres which are burn-scarred and distinctly different than their 
> landcover, millions of trees (yes, really) and even landuse is now currently 
> tagged, I look for guidance — beyond the simple tag of fire=perimeter on a 
> large polygon.
>
> Second, if we do choose to "better" map these incidents and results (they are 
> life- and planet-altering on a grand scale) how might we choose to do that?  
> Do we have landcover tags which could replace landuse=forest or natural=wood 
> with something like natural=fire_scarred?  (I'm making that up, but it or 
> something like it could work).  How and when might we replace these with 
> something less severe?  On the other hand, if it isn't appropriate that we 
> map any of this, please say so.
>
> Thank you, especially any guidance offered from HOT contributors who have 
> worked on post-fire humanitarian disasters,
>
> SteveA
> California (who has returned home after evacuation, relatively safe now that 
> this fire is 100% contained)
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2020, at 7:20 PM, stevea  wrote:
>
>> Not sure if crossposting to talk-us is correct, but it is a "home list" for 
>> me.
>>
>> I've created a large fire perimeter in OSM from public sources, 
>> http://www.osm.org/way/842280873 .  This is a huge fire (sadly, there are 
>> larger ones right now, too), over 130 square miles, and caused the 
>> evacuation of every third person in my county (yes).  There are hundreds, 
>> perhaps thousands of structures, mostly residential homes, which have burned 
>> down and the event has "completely changed" giant redwoods in and the 
>> character of California's oldest state park (Big Basin).
>>
>> This perimeter significantly affects landuse, landcover and human patterns 
>> of movement and activity in this part of the world for a significant time to 
>> come.  It is a "major disaster."  I'm curious how HOT teams might delineate 
>> such a thing (and I've participated in a HOT fire team, mapping barns, water 
>> sources for helicopter dips and other human structures during a large fire 
>> near me), I've simply made a polygon tagged 

Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] Large fire perimeter tagging?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

landuse=forest is used to tag tree covered area, not for how land is used

It is also basically universally interpreted this way by various data consumers.

Sep 25, 2020, 00:05 by cliff...@snowandsnow.us:

> Steve,
> Just a reminder, landuse is to tag what the land is used for. landuse=forest 
> is for areas that have harvestable wood products, ie trees. Just because 
> there was a fire doesn't mean the landuse changes. Landcover is a better tag 
> for burnt areas as well as areas just clearcut. 
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:31 PM stevea <> stevea...@softworkers.com> > wrote:
>
>> I didn't get a single reply on this (see below), which I find surprising, 
>> especially as there are currently even larger fires that are more widespread 
>> all across the Western United States.
>>  
>>  I now ask if there are additional, appropriate polygons with tags I'm not 
>> familiar with regarding landcover that might be added to the map (as 
>> "landuse=forest" might be strictly true now only in a 'zoning' sense, as 
>> many of the actual trees that MAKE these forests have sadly burned down, or 
>> substantially so).
>>  
>>  Considering that there are literally millions and millions of acres of 
>> (newly) burned areas (forest, scrub, grassland, residential, commercial, 
>> industrial, public, private...), I'm surprised that OSM doesn't have some 
>> well-pondered and actual tags that reflect this situation.  My initial 
>> tagging of this (simply tagged, but enormous) polygon as "fire=perimeter" 
>> was coined on my part, but as I search wiki, taginfo and Overpass Turbo 
>> queries for similar data in the map, I come up empty.
>>  
>>  First, do others think it is important that we map these?  I say yes, as 
>> this fire has absolutely enormous impact to what we do and might map here, 
>> both present and future.  The aftermath of this fire (>85,000 acres this 
>> fire alone) will last for decades, and for OSM to not reflect this in the 
>> map (somehow, better bolstered than a simple, though huge, polygon tagged 
>> with fire=perimeter, start_date and end_date) seems OSM "cartographically 
>> misses something."  I know that HOT mappers map the "present- and 
>> aftermath-" of humanitarian disasters, I've HOT-participated myself.  So, 
>> considering the thousands of structures that burned (most of them homes), 
>> tens of thousands of acres which are burn-scarred and distinctly different 
>> than their landcover, millions of trees (yes, really) and even landuse is 
>> now currently tagged, I look for guidance — beyond the simple tag of 
>> fire=perimeter on a large polygon.
>>  
>>  Second, if we do choose to "better" map these incidents and results (they 
>> are life- and planet-altering on a grand scale) how might we choose to do 
>> that?  Do we have landcover tags which could replace landuse=forest or 
>> natural=wood with something like natural=fire_scarred?  (I'm making that up, 
>> but it or something like it could work).  How and when might we replace 
>> these with something less severe?  On the other hand, if it isn't 
>> appropriate that we map any of this, please say so.
>>  
>>  Thank you, especially any guidance offered from HOT contributors who have 
>> worked on post-fire humanitarian disasters,
>>  
>>  SteveA
>>  California (who has returned home after evacuation, relatively safe now 
>> that this fire is 100% contained)
>>  
>>  
>>  On Aug 29, 2020, at 7:20 PM, stevea <>> stevea...@softworkers.com>> > wrote:
>>  > Not sure if crossposting to talk-us is correct, but it is a "home list" 
>> for me.
>>  > 
>>  > I've created a large fire perimeter in OSM from public sources, >> 
>> http://www.osm.org/way/842280873>>  .  This is a huge fire (sadly, there are 
>> larger ones right now, too), over 130 square miles, and caused the 
>> evacuation of every third person in my county (yes).  There are hundreds, 
>> perhaps thousands of structures, mostly residential homes, which have burned 
>> down and the event has "completely changed" giant redwoods in and the 
>> character of California's oldest state park (Big Basin).
>>  > 
>>  > This perimeter significantly affects landuse, landcover and human 
>> patterns of movement and activity in this part of the world for a 
>> significant time to come.  It is a "major disaster."  I'm curious how HOT 
>> teams might delineate such a thing (and I've participated in a HOT fire 
>> team, mapping barns, water sources for helicopter dips and other human 
>> structures during a large fire near me), I've simply made a polygon tagged 
>> fire=perimeter, a name=* tag and a start_date.  I don't expect rendering, 
>> it's meant to be an "up to right about here" (inside the polygon is/was a 
>> burning fire, outside was no fire).  I wouldn't say it is more accurate than 
>> 20 to 50 meters on any edge, an "across a wide street" distance to be "off" 
>> is OK with me, considering this fire's size, but if a slight skew jiggles 
>> the whole thing into place better, feel 

Re: [Talk-us] While we're fixing things in iterations

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Sep 23, 2020, 23:37 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Can we finally fix two other longstanding problems, then?
>>
>> 1. The wiki being incorrect about not counting bicycle lanes.  That's not 
>> reflective of how validators deal with lanes, how data consumers like Osmand 
>> or Magic Earth deal with lanes, or how ground truth works.  The whole "but 
>> you can't fit a motor vehicle down it" argument is facile, that's what 
>> access:lanes=* and width:lanes=* is for.
>>
>
> If it truly is the wiki that needs fixing, I'm all for fixing the wiki here.  
> Is there some reason the relatively low bar of making a change to the wiki 
> hasn't been done yet?
>
>> 2. Tagging route information on ways.  It's about a decade too long at this 
>> point for ref=* on a way to be completely disconnected from the entity the 
>> tag applies to:  That's why route relations exist.  Biggest problem child on 
>> this at the moment:  OSM's own tilesets.  Let's drop rendering for ref=* on 
>> ways and just render the route relations already, this and multipolygons are 
>> why relations came to exist in the first place.
>>
>
> Yes, 100% agreement.  I think this is simply pure inertia (the kind that says 
> "broken process") on the part of renderers.
>
> Can anybody (renderer authors included, maybe even especially) are welcome to 
> offer reasons why "the old machinery" remains in place?
>
in case of OSM Carto: see 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/596 - 
no one implemented it

(if you are unable to implement it, feel free to upvote original report to 
express desire for it,
but please do not make "+1"/"implement pls" on the issue tracker)  

> While I still find murky and mysterious exactly "how" to effect change in 
> renderers (who you gonna call?), 
>
The most effective  way is to implement them (I wanted names of bus stops, I 
proposed it
in https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/195 and 
implemented it
after it was clear that it would be accepted - now since 2014 bus stops in 
default map style are
displaying names, I did similar with rendering of bridge areas and other issues 
then I become
inactive after fixing all thing that were important to me and relatively easy 
compared to their
importance).

You can also test submitted pull requests ( 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pulls )
and express your opinions about this new changes.

You can also comment on new tickets, especially if some ideas are problematic.

You can also report issues or upvote reported issues, though it has smaller 
impact.

You can also implement your own rendering style and run it.

You can also hire someone to do stuff listed above (not sure whatever it ever 
happened,
it should be probably disclosed if someone is getting paid to make some 
specific pull
requests and there is no guarantee that change would be accepted by maintainers)

> my two best efforts along these lines are to "tag well" and "wiki well."  
> (And that can include a great deal of discussion and consensus building on 
> its own, no doubt).  Eventually, (and I've discovered it can take years), 
> renderers do catch up.
>
And also this - say man_made=bridge rendering was possible because there
was substantial use and good tagging proposal. It would not be added otherwise.

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Re: [Talk-us] While we're fixing things in iterations

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Sep 24, 2020, 01:00 by ba...@ursamundi.org:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 5:56 PM Andy Townsend <> ajt1...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23/09/2020 23:01, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 4:37PM stevea <>>> 
>>> stevea...@softworkers.com>>> >wrote:
>>>
 Paul Johnson < ba...@ursamundi.org > wrote: 

 > 2. Tagging route information on ways.  It's about adecade 
 > too long at this point for ref=* on a way to becompletely 
 > disconnected from the entity the tag applies to: That's why 
 > route relations exist.  Biggest problem child onthis at the 
 > moment:  OSM's own tilesets.  Let's droprendering for ref=* 
 > on ways and just render the routerelations already, this and 
 > multipolygons are why relationscame to exist in the first 
 > place.
  
  Yes, 100% agreement.  I think this is simply pure inertia(the 
 kind that says "broken process") on the part ofrenderers.
  
  Can anybody (renderer authors included, maybe evenespecially) 
 are welcome to offer reasons why "the oldmachinery" remains in 
 place?  Are there legacy use casesthat remain unclear to the 
 wider community?  Please tell ushere, if so.

>>
>> The US is unusual in that it doesn't have a single ref per  section of 
>> road.  Most places in OSM map what they see on the  ground, and the 
>> current OSM Carto rendering works just fine for  them
>>
>>
> Right up until there's more than one kind of route on the way. 
>
???

As far as I can see it also works fine, 
see say https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/50.08717/19.80950 
with ref=A4;7 and ref=S52;7

And in places where this rendering breaks due to large number of refs, rendering
from relations would also break

Rendering from ref on road and ref from relation would be displayed in exactly 
the same way,
so if current display is bad it would not be fixed by changing to rendering 
from relations


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Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

31 Aug 2020, 05:38 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> On Aug 30, 2020, at 5:50 PM, Brian Stromberg  
> wrote:
>
>> I would argue that maps can only show the world as the mapmaker wants it to 
>> be shown, and OSM should probably not be encouraging people (in any way) to 
>> be visiting sites that are clearly marked as illegal to visit. This seems 
>> like a bad precedent to set. I would include the bunker but not mark it as 
>> tourism. People will find it if they want to, whatever OSM tags it as, so it 
>> doesn't seem necessary to participate/encourage in whatever degree of 
>> illegality the access entails.
>>
>
> And here is where some disagree:  OSM does not "encourage."  OSM is data.  It 
> simply says "this is" and "these are."  OSM does not encourage people (in any 
> way) to visit a site or trespass.  It is a collection of data (of "what is") 
> expressed as a map.  Full stop.
>
At the same time we know that viewpoint
data can be used, is used and it's typical 
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Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

31 Aug 2020, 10:12 by frede...@remote.org:
> And @Mateusz, I am not convinced that "there are great views from here"
> is sufficient for tourism=viewpoint because it is too subjective. With
> that reasoning, someone with a personal low bar for "great views" could
> plaster the map with tourism=viewpoint.
>
It is the same as with highway=tertiary/
secondary/primary.

Someone with too low bar may plaster
map with highway=primary.

Both cases happened, both were noticed
and spurious objects 
downgraded/removed.

"Only places signed as viewpoint"
would remove valuable data in Poland,
and solving problem that AFAIK is not
existing. At least in places where I visited
(except rare cases).
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Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Aug 31, 2020, 00:17 by frede...@remote.org:

> Hi,
>
> On 8/30/20 22:08, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us wrote:
>
>> Though I wonder what should be done with viewpoint itself.
>>
>
> In my mind, a viewpoint is not just something from where you have a nice
> view; it needs to be signposted or called a viewpoint. This, while
> enjoying some "destination" or perhaps even "attraction" status, is not
> what I would call a viewpoint. And even a tourist attraction, I think,
> should not be something that is illegal to visit.
>
(1) I think that explicit signpost is not necessary, unusually great
view seems sufficient. At least that is how I used this tag.

(2) As I understand, this place is described/called viewpoint
in multiple sources and widely used as such. So it is fulfilled anyway.

(3) In such case I would actually care about legality (I would not
always care about it! For example I would happily violate China/
North Korean/Russian laws about legality of mapping).

But sadly, it appears to actually to be viewpoint and on the ground
survey would almost certainly confirm this.
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Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Aug 30, 2020, 20:01 by frede...@remote.org:

>
> While it is undeniably a de-facto tourist attraction, and undeniably
> offers great views, I think it should probably be changed to
> historic=ruins, access=no, and the tracks leading up to it should also
> be changed to access=no.
>
> Opinions?
>
It seems quite clear that tracks should have correct legal status set.

Though I wonder what should be done with viewpoint itself.

It is actually viewpoint, it is clearly an attractiom so should
we delete tourism=viewpoint? Probably no.

tourism=viewpoint + access=no (that will be ignored by
all/nearly all data consumers)?
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Re: [Talk-us] Mapcarta with wrong info in Utah - whom to contact?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

27 Aug 2020, 14:37 by ian.d...@gmail.com:

>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 03:03 Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us <> 
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Aug 27, 2020, 09:52 by >> frede...@remote.org>> :
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On 27.08.20 00:30, Alex Weech wrote:
>>>
>>>> They appear to be pulling straight from Google
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting! I didn't know you could (show an OSM map and pull POIs from
>>> Google).
>>>
>> AFAIK it is not against OSM license but it is break terms of service set by 
>> Google. 
>>
>>
>
> Since Google doesn't have a way to programmatically get this data about 
> places, it's more likely that Google and Mapcarta used the same data source 
> that list an incorrect phone number. 
>
At least some time ago Google Places
API existed. Is it shut down now?

https://developers.google.com/places/web-service/overview
describes it as an existing
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Re: [Talk-us] Mapcarta with wrong info in Utah - whom to contact?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Aug 27, 2020, 09:52 by frede...@remote.org:

> Hi,
>
> On 27.08.20 00:30, Alex Weech wrote:
>
>> They appear to be pulling straight from Google
>>
>
> Interesting! I didn't know you could (show an OSM map and pull POIs from
> Google).
>
AFAIK it is not against OSM license but it is break terms of service set by 
Google. 

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Re: [Talk-us] Potential Import of Addresses for Thurston County, WA, USA

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Is specifying source in changeset
or on import page on Wiki qualifying
as crediting them?

Because doing this is actually required.

26 Aug 2020, 02:07 by thekingofrav...@disroot.org:

> Alright I have an update:
>
> After an email chain with Thurston County GeoData Center, I finally got
> explicit permission to use the data in open street map. 
>
> "Hello Raven,
>
> You can use the data in Open Street Maps and credit GeoData UNLESS you
> change the data in any way. If you change the data you can still use it
> in Open Street Maps but CANNOT credit GeoData and the County. We make
> no warrantees about the data temporally, spatially, or in terms of
> attribution.
>
> Please let me know if this helps to clarify the disclaimer or if you
> still have questions.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Leslie Carman
> GIS Analyst I"
>
> I can provide the entire email chain if required but this is the part
> that matters. As for the terms they gave me, what is the best way of handling 
> this? My instinct is just to, in some very minor way, ensure every piece of 
> data is modified somehow so future mappers do not have to worry about it. 
> Does just adding it to OSM count as modification, since we convert the data 
> fields?
>
> At this point, I would like to propose that we import this data, as
> this includes rural towns and unincorporated thurston
> county.
> I would divide the building footprints into small blocks to avoid well
> mapped areas.
> As for addresses, because they are points and there are so few
> addresses in my region, I feel like we could be more aggresive about
> that import, although how much so I am not certain.
>
>
> Also @Clifford Snow if you see this I would appreciate whatever you
> have to teach about imports. 
>
> Sincerely,
> Raven
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: [Tagging] [Talk-transit] [OSM-talk] Call for verification (Was: Re: VANDALISM !)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

The answer by Clay Smalley was public and visible on mailing lists.
Personally I was not answering because someone started
mailing list thread under badly chosen title and spammed
it to [Talk-us] AND [Tagging] AND [Talk-transit] AND [OSM-talk]

Why not also to [Imports] and [Talk-pl] and [Talk-diversity]
And [talk-ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn]?


Aug 22, 2020, 21:48 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:

> ever time this person answers, no one else will talk because he is addressing 
> it to me and not the grope.
>  
> i have never id him as he has me, what about the rules ?
>
>
>  Forwarded message 
> From: Clay Smalley <> claysmal...@gmail.com <>> >
> To: 80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru, Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics 
> <> talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org <>> >
> Cc: t...@openstreetmap.org, tagg...@openstreetmap.org, OSM Talk US <> 
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org <>> >
> Date: Saturday, August 22, 2020 2:33 PM -05:00
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Talk-transit] [OSM-talk] Call for verification (Was: 
> Re: VANDALISM !)
>  > Everyone knows who you're talking about at this point, and nobody cares. 
> Use the remaining day or so of your temporary ban to work on some hobbies 
> outside of OpenStreetMap. 
>  
> And be careful about who you say isn't local. I'm moving to Northern Indiana 
> next week and I'll certainly get the chance to survey many of the estimated 
> stop positions I remotely mapped. I hope to see you around as we continue 
> working on the same things.
>  
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 12:21 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-transit <> 
> talk-tran...@openstreetmap.org 
> > 
> > wrote:
>
>>> it was one person in CA adding 400 unverified tags to rail service in 
>>> chicago.
>>>  
>>> one just 818 m, away from my home.
>>>  
>>>
 SATURDAY, August 22, 2020 12:32 PM -05:00 from Martin Koppenhoefer < 
 dieterdre...@gmail.com  >:

 sent from a phone
  
 > On 22. Aug 2020, at 10:15, pangoSE < pang...@riseup.net <> > 
 > wrote:
 >
 > Here is yet another example of bad data in our database:

 fix it ;-)

 Of course OpenStreetMap contains errors, just like any other source, and 
 probably more, given that most contributors are laymen and have very few 
 experience (few total edits, often just 1).

 On the other hand, we may be very fast when something changes, very 
 flexible in emergencies (think Haiti), and have interesting niche data 
 that commercial and public data providers don’t care for.

 It all depends on the local community in the end. If you have reached a 
 critical mass to have locals everywhere, it will work great and bugs will 
 wash out. Otherwise the data might get stale just like any other data. 
 Also using the data is essential to find the problems, for example the 212 
 story garage is likely fixed now ;-)

 I tend to agree with Steve A.

 Cheers Martin
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>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> ___
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>> 
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>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>

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Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] VANDALISM !

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Thanks to DWG for taking this action.

Aug 22, 2020, 03:35 by claysmal...@gmail.com:

> For those who aren't following, the DWG recently decided on a two-day ban for 
> the person who posted this, for the exact behavior they're exhibiting right 
> now: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/3850
>
> jdd 3, please take a break. You have better things to do.
>
> I look forward to when you demonstrate the ability to communicate 
> collaboratively.
>
> Best,
> Clay
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 6:08 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <> 
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> FYI;
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism
>>  
>> Purposeful removal or degradation of data that are known to be correct,
>>  
>> Deliberate adding incorrect data;
>>  
>> People who revert other people's work should expect to be able to 
>> demonstrate that the reversion was well reasoned and proportionate to the 
>> issue.
>>  
>> Not There;
>> Unverified>>  >>  >> if someone puts in 400 + >>  unverified >> tags in one 
>> edit,
>>  
>> If someone reverts, 400 + edits,  in one edit, done on good faith by others 
>> over the years to conform to there way of thinking,
>>  
>> If someone deletes, 400 + edits,  in one edit, done on good faith by others 
>> over the years to conform to there way of thinking,
>>  
>> If someone refuses to let others, edit because they have taken over that 
>> type edit, all bus stops in the same area,
>> all train stations in the same area, all boundaries in the same area.
>>  
>> Edits that do not conform to the subject wiki. 
>>  
>> if someone downloads data that will create one mulitipolygon, against all 
>> wikis
>>  
>> Also there is no wiki on unverified edits.
>>  
>>  
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Call for verification (Was: Re: VANDALISM !)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

"It a playground with half-ass quality more than an authoritative and verified 
source of information (like e.g. Wikipedia)"

I am not sure whatever you claim that
Wikipedia is
"playground with half-ass quality" or
"authoritative and verified source of information".

Though any of this claims would demonstrate that
you are wrong and uninformed.

Like with your "deprecate name tag"
there are so many wrong things here.
OSM would benefit from better verification
tools and so on but insult-laden post
filed with misunderstandings will not
lead towards them.
22 Aug 2020, 09:32 by pang...@riseup.net:

> Hi
>
> 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk  skrev: (22 augusti 2020 
> 03:06:37 CEST)
>
> > 
> >Also there is no wiki on unverified edits.
> > 
>
> In OSM we don't yet have an established system for verification or accurate 
> machine readable references for the data to my knowledge.
>
> This means the whole database is basically just a mess of biased data that 
> one of our millions of editors thought should be included. Most objects have 
> very few revisions and we have no idea about the overall quality or 
> correctness. It a playground with half-ass quality more than an authoritative 
> and verified source of information (like e.g. Wikipedia). Building upon it 
> can lead to strange things. E.g. 
> https://www.nyteknik.se/popularteknik/mystisk-jatteskrapa-dok-upp-i-flygsimulator-6999771
>  (building:levels=212 was entered erroneously and committed to the database 
> without any kind of QA follow-up. If someone knows the osmid I would like to 
> know how long this error was present in OSM)
>
> We should really fix this and start a verification effort after implementing 
> a sane verification model.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Anyone familiar with Rocky Mountain National Park (RMNP)?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Though I am sadly unfamiliar with Rocky Mountains -
but especially given (6) you are not obligated to make
even more research.


Aug 9, 2020, 10:44 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:

> In such case removing this names should be fine.
>
>
> Aug 8, 2020, 21:12 by miketh...@gmail.com:
>
>> I thought the names of these water bodies[0] in RMNP were suspect because:
>> 1) The names do not appear in the GNIS,
>> 2) The names do not appear on the USGS topo
>> 3) The names do not appear in the NHD  
>> 4) The names do not appear on the RMNP map that is handed out to visitors
>> 5) I have hiked past here several times but have never seen signs naming 
>> these bodies of water.
>> 6) I asked the mapper that added the names what their source was, and they 
>> said they didn't remember.
>> 7) I have several hiking books covering RMNP and none mention these water 
>> bodies using these names.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> [0]
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681825
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451427
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681824
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681823
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451428
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: [Talk-us] Anyone familiar with Rocky Mountain National Park (RMNP)?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

In such case removing this names should be fine.


Aug 8, 2020, 21:12 by miketh...@gmail.com:

> I thought the names of these water bodies[0] in RMNP were suspect because:
> 1) The names do not appear in the GNIS,
> 2) The names do not appear on the USGS topo
> 3) The names do not appear in the NHD  
> 4) The names do not appear on the RMNP map that is handed out to visitors
> 5) I have hiked past here several times but have never seen signs naming 
> these bodies of water.
> 6) I asked the mapper that added the names what their source was, and they 
> said they didn't remember.
> 7) I have several hiking books covering RMNP and none mention these water 
> bodies using these names.
>
> Mike
>
> [0]
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681825
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451427
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681824
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429681823
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429451428
>
>

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Re: [Talk-us] Cycleway Crossings

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Aug 7, 2020, 13:11 by dougpeter...@dpeters2.dyndns.org:

> I have noticed in my area where some people have been adding crossings to a 
> designated cycleway (named and signed as a bike trail). The crossings are 
> fine. It is that the crossing is then been changed to a footway. 
>
link?

>
> I have looked at the highway=cycleway wiki and not seen anything addressing 
> crossings. There was one screenshot that seemed to show intersections or 
> crossings with roads remaining as cycleways. Before I made any effort on 
> changing these back I wanted to ask if there was any other knowledge out 
> there about this.
>
is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crossing maybe helpful?

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Re: [Talk-us] Marking structure as damaged or condemned

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Is building completely destroyed (no longer existing)?

Simply delete it or remove building tag and use demolished:building=yes / 
not:building=tag,
possibly add also note.

Deleting is fine, but others may remap it from aerial images.



Still building, just damaged, abandoned or seriously damaged?

abandoned=yes, ruins=yes, damaged=yes is a typical tagging



I am not aware about good standard tagging for ruins that appeared recently
that are no longer a building.

Aug 6, 2020, 03:11 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:

> Tropical Storm Isaias left several homes in my neighborhood severely damaged 
> and condemned.  Is there a proper way to map these structures?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Interested in importing address points in New York State

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jul 20, 2020, 15:32 by o...@dead10ck.com:

> Thanks Mateusz, I actually tried to make a page, but I am encountering some 
> strange behavior from the wiki. When I try to edit or add a page, a text box 
> appears that says "confirmation code," with no other explanation. I don't get 
> an email with a confirmation code, so I have no idea what it wants.
>
Have you tried disabling adblock or adblock-like protection?

Some sort of CAPTCHa should appear on the screen (probably because it was 
scared by creation
a page with links).


> I was going to make a subpage of New York with the title of "NYS GIS 
> Clearinghouse", and include a link to it in the Potential Data sources page. 
> I'm not sure if it's possible to upload and serve arbitrary files in the 
> wiki; if so, I was going to upload that raw email file.
>
Is this email a text-only email? That I would create a page where section/text 
would quote it.

I moved page to 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/New_York/NYS_GIS_Clearinghouse

It is just stub, so feel free to expand it.

I have not edited Potential Data sources page
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Re: [Talk-us] Interested in importing address points in New York State

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jul 20, 2020, 05:12 by kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com:

> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 12:46 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us <> 
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> Once you write this diary entry (or OSM Wiki page) please post
>> it to the mailing list!
>>
>
> Here you go:  > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ke9tv/diary/393684
>
>  Feel free to repost, wikify, share as appropriate!
>
For now I created tiny https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/E911_data_in_New_York
to make this easier to search. 

For start - what would be the best name for that page?
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Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-us-newyork] Interested in importing address points in New York State

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Not a lawyer, but is it possible that
"use the points for any lawful purpose"
is nonanswer as a use invaloving copyright infringement would not be lawful?

Jul 18, 2020, 18:34 by o...@dead10ck.com:

> Well, it turned it to be a lot easier than I was thinking it would be! I 
> reached out to the contact listed on the Clearing House web site, using the 
> template in the wiki page, and he replied confirming that we have permission 
> to use the data. This is the text of the email exchange, and I've also 
> attached the raw .eml file.
>
> From: Winters, Frank (ITS) frank.wint...@its.ny.gov
> Date: July 17, 2020 22:30:24
> Subject: RE: Interested in importing the Address Point data from the Clearing 
> House into OpenStreetMap
> To: Skyler Hawthorne o...@dead10ck.com
> CC: Coryell, Rodger (ITS) rodger.cory...@its.ny.gov, Fargione, Craig (ITS) 
> craig.fargi...@its.ny.gov
>
> Hi Skyler, nice to hear form you. We would very much like the SAM address 
> points to be included in Open Street Map. The permitted use of the points is 
> quite simple. You may use the points for any lawful purpose. While we do our 
> best to maintain a comprehensive and accurate set of address points with our 
> limited resources we know it has shortcomings. See the metadata for the 
> liability disclaimer.
>
> We generally post quarterly updates to the data set.
>
>
> Frank Winters
> Geographic Information Officer
>
> Office of Information Technology Services
> W. Averell Harriman State Office Campus
> Bldg. 5 - Floor 1
> Albany, NY 12226
> 518.242.5036 | 518.281.9140 m | frank.wint...@its.ny.gov
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Skyler Hawthorne  Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 6:30 PM
> To: Winters, Frank (ITS) 
> Subject: Interested in importing the Address Point data from the Clearing 
> House into OpenStreetMap
>
> ATTENTION: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments 
> or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.
>
> Hello Mr Winters,
>
> Thank you for your part in making the GIS data for New York State available 
> to the public through the Clearing House project!
>
> I am a contributor to the OpenStreetMap project [1], a collaborative open 
> project to create a global geodata set freely usable by anyone [2].
>
> We respect the IP rights of others and I write to ask if we can use this 
> data. There does not appear to be any explicit information about the license 
> under which the data sets in the Cleaning House web site are distributed. 
> It's unclear what the terms are for its use, and specifically whether or not 
> it is public domain, and if it is permitted to import into the OpenStreetMap 
> project and redistribute to the world under an open license.
>
> At the most simple, I would seek a statement like this:
>
> "The New York State GIS Program Office [or the relevant NYS department(s)] 
> has no objections to geodata derived in part from the GIS Clearing House data 
> sets being incorporated into the OpenStreetMap project geodata database and 
> released under a free and open license" [1]
>
> I also ask that whatever statement you are prepared to make can be made 
> public for information purposes.
>
> Below is a fact sheet. If you would like any more information, I will do my 
> best to help or can ask our project's License Working Group to get in touch 
> with you.
>
> Regards,
> Skyler Hawthorne
>
> Fact Sheet
>
> [1] The OpenStreetMap project currently has over 750,000 registered 
> contributors worldwide. Our main website is https://www.openstreetmap.org
>
> [2] We are mandated to make our geodata available in perpetuity under a free 
> and open licence. We are not allowed to use a commercial license, but 
> commercial organisations are allowed to use our data under similar terms.
>
> [3] Our data is currently published under the Open Database License 1.0, 
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=76761582-2a4eb33f-7674ecb7-000babd9fa3f-f71edf933744da0d=1=391ef603-5912-439f-b6e4-b8ac749598bd=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opendatacommons.org%2Flicenses%2Fodbl%2F
>
> [4] Most of our geodata is contributed by individuals. However, we are very 
> grateful when able to incorporate or derive from other geo-data datasets 
> where license terms are compatible.
>
> [5] We formally attribute all such sources at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution, using any specific wording 
> if you request. We also try to provide a link to this page with any extract 
> of data from our database. However, for reasons of practicality, we do not 
> require end-users to repeat such attribution since it runs into hundreds.
>
> [6] We also keep a public track of third party data use at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue and usually have a 
> project page for each dataset, describing how we use it and whether there are 
> any license restrictions to be aware of.
>
> [7] If you have any specific legal questions, the OpenStreetMap Foundation's 
> License Working Group can be reached 

Re: [Talk-us] Interested in importing address points in New York State

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Once you write this diary entry (or OSM Wiki page) please post
it to the mailing list!

Jul 16, 2020, 18:15 by kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com:

> (It got fixed.)  Mateusz, do I recall that you took part
> in the reversion?
>
No, but I was working on much simpler deimport:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/remove_objects_that_are_not_existing_according_to_source_of_import_that_added_them

Still, it took plenty of time to do it properly and for years OSM had 
many misleading POIs because import was not done properly.

Though note that it was import from OSM prehistory (2009),
when issues related to imports were not known well.

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Re: [Talk-us] sweat of the brow & sui generis database rights | Re: Interested in importing address points in New York State

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

16 Jul 2020, 16:33 by r...@technomancy.org:

> On 16/07/2020 13:35, Russell Nelson wrote:
>
>> As you say, it's just a listing of facts about the world. At most the 
>> presentation of them is copyrightable, but as Skyler noted, he's changing 
>> the presentation.
>>
>> No license needed for facts.
>>
>
> Remember, that might the law in the USA, but not in the whole world, 
> including the UK, where (lots of) the OSM servers & legal body is based, 
> which can have the  “sweat of the brow” doctrine, rather than the higher  
> “creativity” requirement. In addition, many countries (incl. EU & UK) have 
> “sui generis database rights”, which give copyright like protections to 
> collections of facts. OSM uses that legal protection.
I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure
that it is not relevant to the data published
by New York State (that was produced 
in US jurisdiction).

> Regardless, OSM is not a forum to explore the grey areas of international 
> copyright law. If we're not sure, we don't use it! 
>
+1, but hopefully with some research we
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Re: [Talk-us] Interested in importing address points in New York State

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jul 16, 2020, 06:44 by o...@dead10ck.com:

> I found that NYS publishes GIS data in their "Clearing House", and one of the 
> data sets available is address points: 
> https://gis.ny.gov/gisdata/inventories/details.cfm?DSID=921
>
> I opened the data in JOSM, and they look spatially accurate, for the most 
> part (I noticed some points are off for addresses that don't have recent 
> satellite imagery available).
>
> Reading up on the import guidelines, I can see that the license is important. 
> However, I am not able to see anything that explicitly states one way or 
> another what kind of license the data sets are distributed under
>
Hello and thanks for checking before the import!
License is important, sadly it seems to not be specified anywhere. 

> , and this whether or not it is compatible with the ODBL. I wanted to ask if 
> perhaps anyone else had investigated these data sets in the past, and what 
> their findings were. If not, is the next step to email someone and ask?
>
I just looked at it and it seems that either it is not specified or I missed it.

If nobody will be able to locate that info then emailing specified contact 
would be a good next step.

Note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_works_by_subnational_governments_of_the_United_States#New_York

So unlike work of federal government it is not automatically public domain.

On the other hand, it may be unoriginal database... Still, the preferred 
version is to have an explicit
license.

> I don't have anything like an extensive plan for carrying out an import, 
> which is why I did not include the "authoritative" imports mailing list yet. 
> However, at a high level, as I am a software engineer by trade, my plan is to 
> write a script that reads the shapefiles and an .osm file dump as input, does 
> the attribute to tag transformations, and deduplicates with the existing data 
> by excluding any address points that already exist in any OSM object with 
> equivalent addr:* tags (it might also be necessary to inspect all 
> associatedStreet and street relations). It would produce an .osm as output 
> that contains nodes with just addr:* tags. This can then be opened in JOSM 
> and merged into the standard data layer. I'd probably start with a single 
> county and go from there.
>
Similar things were done already so remember to check whatever existing tools 
for
converting and conflation are good enough to use/modify rather than start from 
scratch.

> As a disclaimer, I do this in my free time, which is in short supply, so 
> progress on this would likely be slow.
>
Like OSM mapping in general.

> However, I would love if everyone could just search for any address and find 
> it.
>
+1

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Re: [Talk-us] access=private on driveways (was: Deleting tiger:reviewed=no/addr:street for routes)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jul 14, 2020, 13:17 by jm...@gmx.com:

> On 7/14/2020 4:53 AM, Mateusz Konieczny      via Talk-us wrote:
>
>>
>> Jul 14, 2020, 02:20 by >> jm...@gmx.com>> :
>>
>>> If there was reason to believe you needed explicit  permission to 
>>> be on
>>> that way, then access=private would be correct.
>>>
>> I am unsure what is the best way to tag "explicit permissionnot 
>> required,
>> implicit permission is required" case. (it is not a bigproblem in 
>> Poland
>> where nearly all such roads will have a gate anyway, bumpingit 
>> into access=private)
>>
>
> I'm really not sure how to interpret "Implicit permission is  required." 
> To my mind, if permission is implicit, it's not  required 
> (access=permissive) and if permission is required, it's  not implicit 
> (access=private.)
>
>
You can go if you have a valid reason, even if not explicitly invited or 
permitted 
("hello, I am a new neighbor").

You are now allowed if you have no valid reason ("I used this road to make 
shortcut" or
"hello, I am a creepy stalker" or "hello, I am an onbnoxious peddler")
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Re: [Talk-us] access=private on driveways (was: Deleting tiger:reviewed=no/addr:street for routes)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jul 14, 2020, 02:20 by jm...@gmx.com:

> On 7/13/2020 4:09 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>
>> On 13/07/2020 15.16, Kevin Kenny wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The immediate curtilage of a house is presumed to be private; at least
>>> in the US, one does not drive or walk directly up to someone's house
>>> without having business there. (Someone making a delivery, obviously,
>>> has business there.)
>>>
>>
>> ...this seems to be the definition of access=destination?
>>
>
> I'd say yes, that access=destination is closest to how I interpret most
> driveways: you can walk/drive along the driveway if you have a good
> reason, eg to make a delivery or an inquiry.
>
access=destination mean "no transit", not "with valid reason".

access=destination on driveway means "cannot be used by transit",
not "can be used if owner presumably agrees".

access=destination has the same meaning as access=yes on ways
that are not usable for transit (for example driveway attached to 
a single road on one end and leading into house)

> If there was reason to believe you needed explicit permission to be on
> that way, then access=private would be correct.
>
I am unsure what is the best way to tag "explicit permission not required,
implicit permission is required" case. (it is not a big problem in Poland
where nearly all such roads will have a gate anyway, bumping it 
into access=private)
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Re: [Talk-us] Importing data for Prince William County, VA

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jul 13, 2020, 20:29 by mwoehlke.fl...@gmail.com:

> On 13/07/2020 14.22, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> If you are staying from manually reviewing
>> and editing based on this new data,
>> aerials and current data it should be
>> perfectly fine as long as you actually review
>> what you add.
>>
>
> For now, yes. For buildings (later, and I'll probably ping y'all again), I 
> expect that to be more automated, but probably still manually reviewed.
>
> It is still required to use a separate account for manually audited changes?
>
Is it going to be "by comparing dataset X and OSM I found places to map roads 
that I added
using aerial images"? Or more of "manually copied and verified geometries from 
external dataset"?

I would say that for second case I would create an import page on wiki and so 
on,
including a separate user while for first just post on relevant mailing lists.

For "more automated" buildings you definitely need separate account, Wiki page 
documentation
etc.

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Re: [Talk-us] Importing data for Prince William County, VA

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Ok, then it should be ok.

If you are staying from manually reviewing
and editing based on this new data,
aerials and current data it should be
perfectly fine as long as you actually review 
what you add.

13 Jul 2020, 20:15 by mwoehlke.fl...@gmail.com:

> On 13/07/2020 13.44, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us wrote:
>
>> Are you sure that it is in public domain?
>>
>
> It is according to the government POC.
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports-us/2020-July/000954.html
>
> -- 
> Matthew
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Re: [Talk-us] Importing data for Prince William County, VA

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Are you sure that it is in public domain?

Is it work of federal government?
Or a state government?

13 Jul 2020, 16:48 by mwoehlke.fl...@gmail.com:

> (Repost to talk-us also.)
>
> On 13/07/2020 10.44, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>
>> I am working on a project that wishes to tentatively use OSM data from 
>> Quantico and possibly surrounding areas. Unfortunately, OSM is somewhat 
>> lacking in this area, especially within Quantico itself.
>>
>> I would like to import data from information provided by the county¹. To 
>> start with, I would like to use the country-provided roads to improve road 
>> shapes and fill in missing roads (for now, manually, probably using 
>> Merkaartor, and checked against available aerial imagery). Eventually, I 
>> want to add buildings and maybe anything else that seems useful.
>>
>> Being data generated by an agency of the US government, the source data is 
>> Public Domain (verified via the contact information provided on the site).
>>
>> Comments/concerns/objections/suggestions?
>>
>> (¹ https://gisdata-pwcgov.opendata.arcgis.com/)
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Matthew
>
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[Talk-us] Is summit register something that is often found in USA mountains?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Is summit register something that is often found in USA mountains?

("A summit book or summit register is a record of visitors to the summit
of a mountain. It is usually enclosed in a weatherproof, animalproof metal 
canister.")

I am asking as I plan to implement summit register part of 
https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/561 and I wonder
whatever it makes sense to ask this question in USA.

So far this kind of object is not mapped at all in USA ( 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/summit%3Aregister#map )
but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_register claims
"The Sierra Club places official registers on many mountains
throughout California and the United States." (with quite weak source)
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[Talk-us] nhd pages documentation review

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

I created 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nhd:fcode
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nhd:ftype
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nhd:reach_code
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:nhd:com_id 
about tags added in imports. 

Review is welcomed, especially the first two where I described tags 
with over 250 000 uses as pointless and unwanted.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Google earth, Google maps

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

If you were not copying Google Maps then why you were using the ruler?

Why using ruler on Google Maps would be even necessary?

Jun 13, 2020, 17:31 by t...@openstreetmap.org:

> i put them as a source i used a ruler on there map.
>
>  
>
>> Saturday, June 13, 2020 10:20 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>> :
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Jun 13, 2020, 16:59 by eric.lad...@gmail.com:
>>
>>> Yeah, be careful with Google Maps.  It's owned and created by a company and 
>>> if you copy from it and they can prove it, they could sue the OSM 
>>> Foundation into oblivion.  They used to even have their OWN satellites to 
>>> obtain imagery.  That's serious money.
>>>
>> That is not the main problem. Main problem is that it goes our own 
>> fundamental rules.
>> Mappers must not use other maps* even if whoever hold copyright is unable to 
>> sue for some reason.
>>  
>> And "they can prove it" part may be misleading - you are not allowed to copy 
>> even if you think that
>> you can hide the copying so that noone will notice it.
>>  
>> *that is more complicated, we are must not copyrighted data on incompatible 
>> licenes -
>> but if you are unsure what it means do not use other maps and ask for help 
>> before doing this
>>
>>>  
>>> Typically, with local edits, I put "Local knowledge" as the source.  Sounds 
>>> more highbrow than "my eyeballs". 
>>>
>> I usually put survey/memory depending on how recent my data is.
>>
>>> IMO, if somebody is challenging one of your local edits, if they are not 
>>> local also, they should be told as much and sent on their way - UNLESS it's 
>>> something that relates to a mapping standard or best practice.  Then, learn 
>>> from your mistakes and move on.
>>>
>> +1
>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <>>> 
>>> talk-us@openstreetmap.org >>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> this was a tool on the map that measured distance.
>>>>
>> Have you copied that map? I am unsure how the distance measuring tool
>> relates to "why are you telling me I can not use google as a map source"?
>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>> Saturday, June 13, 2020 9:29 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us 
>>>>> <>>>>> talk-us@openstreetmap.org >>>>> >:
>>>>>  
>>>>> You are not allowed to use Google Maps as source.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Have you used Google Maps to edit OSM?
>>>>>  
>>>>> "since all the maps on OSM are old news like in my local area 7 months 
>>>>> old."
>>>>>  
>>>>> FYI, world is larger than your local area.
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> Jun 13, 2020, 16:08 by >>>>> talk-us@openstreetmap.org 
>>>>> >>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you people want me to prove my edit by adding a source, and a person 
>>>>>> from the data group as an editor,
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> asks me to prove it, and i redo my edit and he does not get back to me, 
>>>>>> why are you telling me I can not use
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> google as a map source, since all the maps on OSM are old news. like in 
>>>>>> my local area 7 months old.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>> ___
>>>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>>>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <http:///compose?To=talk%2...@openstreetmap.org>
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> ___
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>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>>
>>>  
>>>  
>>> --
>>> Eric Ladner
>>>
>>  
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>

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Re: [Talk-us] Google earth, Google maps

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jun 13, 2020, 16:59 by eric.lad...@gmail.com:

> Yeah, be careful with Google Maps.  It's owned and created by a company and 
> if you copy from it and they can prove it, they could sue the OSM Foundation 
> into oblivion.  They used to even have their OWN satellites to obtain 
> imagery.  That's serious money.
>
That is not the main problem. Main problem is that it goes our own fundamental 
rules.
Mappers must not use other maps* even if whoever hold copyright is unable to 
sue for some reason.

And "they can prove it" part may be misleading - you are not allowed to copy 
even if you think that
you can hide the copying so that noone will notice it.

*that is more complicated, we are must not copyrighted data on incompatible 
licenes -
but if you are unsure what it means do not use other maps and ask for help 
before doing this

>
> Typically, with local edits, I put "Local knowledge" as the source.  Sounds 
> more highbrow than "my eyeballs". 
>
I usually put survey/memory depending on how recent my data is.

>  IMO, if somebody is challenging one of your local edits, if they are not 
> local also, they should be told as much and sent on their way - UNLESS it's 
> something that relates to a mapping standard or best practice.  Then, learn 
> from your mistakes and move on.
>
+1

> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <> 
> talk-us@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> this was a tool on the map that measured distance.
>>
Have you copied that map? I am unsure how the distance measuring tool
relates to "why are you telling me I can not use google as a map source"?
>>  
>>
>>> Saturday, June 13, 2020 9:29 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us 
>>> <>>> talk-us@openstreetmap.org>>> >:
>>>  
>>> You are not allowed to use Google Maps as source.
>>>  
>>> Have you used Google Maps to edit OSM?
>>>  
>>> "since all the maps on OSM are old news like in my local area 7 months old."
>>>  
>>> FYI, world is larger than your local area.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Jun 13, 2020, 16:08 by >>> talk-us@openstreetmap.org>>> :
>>>
>>>> If you people want me to prove my edit by adding a source, and a person 
>>>> from the data group as an editor,
>>>>  
>>>> asks me to prove it, and i redo my edit and he does not get back to me, 
>>>> why are you telling me I can not use
>>>>  
>>>> google as a map source, since all the maps on OSM are old news. like in my 
>>>> local area 7 months old.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>  
>>> ___
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>>>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> ___
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>>
>
>
> -- 
> Eric Ladner
>

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Re: [Talk-us] Google earth, Google maps

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

You are not allowed to use Google Maps as source.

Have you used Google Maps to edit OSM?

"since all the maps on OSM are old news like in my local area 7 months old."

FYI, world is larger than your local area.


Jun 13, 2020, 16:08 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:

> If you people want me to prove my edit by adding a source, and a person from 
> the data group as an editor,
>  
> asks me to prove it, and i redo my edit and he does not get back to me, why 
> are you telling me I can not use
>  
> google as a map source, since all the maps on OSM are old news. like in my 
> local area 7 months old.
>  
>  
>

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Edit Attacks

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

I am not a native speaker, but as far as I know "freak" is pejorative and quite 
strong 
slur.

If I am right and it has strong negative associations - please do not use it on 
mailing lists
or elsewhere in OSM.

Jun 10, 2020, 23:41 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:

> this is a good one because i had a back and forth discussion with somebody 
> that was 
> calling me out on my edit because from space this looked like a flat surface 
> and then explaned
> how to list it as non active.
>  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/802256628#map=16/42.1110/-87.8160
>  
> but the thing is the river was a 10 year old 81 mile download that maye 
> should not be as to the Wiki.
> and this guy must be a river freak just like the bus stop guy who thought he 
> own the map.
>  
>
>> Wednesday, June 10, 2020 2:26 PM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>> :
>>  
>> Can you link any specific changeset damaging data
>> or object that was deleted and should not be?
>>  
>> Linked ones
>> http://nrenner.github.io/achavi/?changeset=86230442
>> http://nrenner.github.io/achavi/?changeset=85357849
>> appear to not be problematic
>>  
>> ( >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/233949#map=9/41.8982/-87.7286
>> is on boundary of unreasonably large relation, but it is not
>> something very problematic)
>>  
>> Jun 10, 2020, 15:27 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:
>>
>>>     Last week I edited a 10 year old, 81 mile>>>  MultiPolygon with GHOSTS 
>>> in the ID editor, all I know, Someone
>>>  
>>> took offence to that,  >>> 
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/85357849#map=13/42.0813/-87.8854
>>>  
>>> and attacked all my edits of that day, and as he moved from north to south, 
>>> every thing I did for the
>>>  
>>> last year.   >>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86230442>>>  , 
>>> with things other people had already
>>>  
>>> called me on, (discussion). so >>>  >>> exposing>>>  my self everything I 
>>> have done in the last 24 hours is under question
>>>  
>>> from people who are not local but in Europe. even my visit to the golf 
>>> course is in question a 7 year stale edit.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>  
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> t...@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>

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Re: [Talk-us] Edit Attacks

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Can you link any specific changeset damaging data
or object that was deleted and should not be?

Linked ones 
http://nrenner.github.io/achavi/?changeset=86230442
http://nrenner.github.io/achavi/?changeset=85357849
appear to not be problematic

( https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/233949#map=9/41.8982/-87.7286 
is on boundary of unreasonably large relation, but it is not
something very problematic)
 
Jun 10, 2020, 15:27 by talk-us@openstreetmap.org:

>     Last week I edited a 10 year old, 81 mile>  MultiPolygon with GHOSTS in 
> the ID editor, all I know, Someone
>  
> took offence to that,  > 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/85357849#map=13/42.0813/-87.8854
>  
> and attacked all my edits of that day, and as he moved from north to south, 
> every thing I did for the
>  
> last year.   > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86230442>  , with 
> things other people had already
>  
> called me on, (discussion). so >  > exposing>  my self everything I have done 
> in the last 24 hours is under question
>  
> from people who are not local but in Europe. even my visit to the golf course 
> is in question a 7 year stale edit.
>  
>  
>  
>

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] fake mapping

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jun 9, 2020, 00:26 by t...@openstreetmap.org:

> just to be safe i went to a pre-edit location, less than 5 miles 2 hours by 
> public transportation.
>  
> the satellite view was wrong, the river area were ponds because of the dam, 
> which was not there in 1969
>  
> when we went down the river in cement tubs, and the golf cart paths were all 
> marked unmaintained track road.
>  
> there are pologons around the greens, holes and fairways not the whole 
> property, where natural woods
>  
> that have separate pologons.  
>  
> the point is there is to much there to fix.  
>
Yes, in many cases map should be updated. If aerial images are wrong it is 
useful to add
something like
note=edited based on survey, as of 2020 Bing aerial imagery is outdated and 
wrong

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] river - stream

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jun 5, 2020, 14:45 by t...@openstreetmap.org:

> if water goes under a bridge, why in the ID  editor is it pictured on top of 
> the bridge,
>
Is layer tag set correctly?

>  
> when the river stream comes to the bridge can you split and add tunnel ?   
>  
>
No, if it is under bridge then mapping it as a tunnel (culvert) is incorrect.

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Re: [Talk-us] Heavily-wooded residential polygons

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jun 3, 2020, 06:09 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> Mateusz Konieczny writes:
> "OSM is not a place to map property rights.  And landuse=residential is 
> certainly not a tool for mapping boundaries of owned areas or property right 
> boundaries."
>
> I don't wish to start an argument, and I ask with all the politeness I can 
> muster, but Mateusz, how can you be so sure?  Quoting our wiki, "land 
> use...describes what an area of land is used for e.g. housing..., etc."  On 
> the land that property owners own, and live on, can you truly say they are 
> not "using the entirety of their land for residential purposes?"  Of course, 
> some of that might have a house or apartment building, but the rest of it, is 
> that land not also residential?
>
Depends on a case. If you have a tree-covered area next to house, then it is 
likely a landuse=residential
and it likely terminates where your owned area terminates.

But if you have 2000 acres of forest, wetland and whatever else - with your 
house there, it
does not mean that the entire area becomes landuse=residential.

I agree that landuse=residential often matches property area (as people 
typically use
their entire property).

But I would strongly against matching residential areas to property boundaries.

And I am strongly opposed to basing OSM mapping on people who think that
landuse=residential mapped in OSM defines their owned property and affects
their legal rights.

>   "the remainder of land which is used for residential purposes which does 
> not strictly contain the footprint of a building (hut, apartment, tent, 
> hogan, mud daub dwelling)?"  Something other than residential?  It is 
> residential!
>
Yes, this is residential. But I have seen cases (and though that you are 
talking about it) of people
tagging private forest/wetland/whatever as landuse=residential till their 
property boundary

For example things like
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lush_undergrowth_Bj%C3%B6rnlandet_national_park.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lawthorn_wetland,_Irvine,_North_Ayrshire.jpg
were marked as landuse=residential solely because were on the same legal area 
as a house,
despite not used for residential purpose in any way (except some 
sightseeing/walking,
like it happens with any other forest).

For example, area should not be marked as landuse=industrial just because 
someone
has legal rights to drill for oil there or legal rights to build factory there.

It also is not landuse=industrial if it is forest next to currently operating 
factory, with a planned
construction there.

Only once a construction starts it can be marked as a  landuse=construction and
later once the factory is actually there it will be a landuse=industrial
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Re: [Talk-us] Heavily-wooded residential polygons

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jun 2, 2020, 20:16 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> "this IS residential landuse."  (Not COULD BE, but IS).  Yes, this land might 
> be "natural" now, including being "treed," but I could still build a patio 
> and bbq there after perhaps cutting down some trees, it is my residential 
> land and I am allowed to do that, meaning it has residential use, even if it 
> is "unimproved" presently.  
>
It is a residential property, not a residential landuse.

> These facts do add to the difficulty:  OSM doesn't wish to appear to be 
> removing property rights from residential landowners (by diminishing 
> landuse=residential areas)
>
Are there people somehow believing that edits in OSM affect property rights and 
may remove them?
That is ridiculous.

>  but at the same time, significant portions of these areas do remain in a 
> natural state, while distinctly and presently "having" residential landuse.  
>
For me and in my region (Poland) it would be treated as a clearly incorrect 
mapping.
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Re: [Talk-us] Heavily-wooded residential polygons

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jun 2, 2020, 22:32 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> On Jun 2, 2020, at 1:25 PM, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
>
>> >  should the entirety of the underlying area be tagged landuse=farmland or 
>> > landuse=residential?
>>
>> Neither: just tag the areas that are used for residences as 
>> landuse=residential, and the area used for farming (mostly crops) as 
>> landuse=farmland.
>>
>
> I can certainly appreciate how this is an easy suggestion from the author of 
> a renderer, but it diminishes from our map the extent of property rights of 
> the owner of the residence / farmland.
>
OSM is not a place to map property rights.

And landuse=residential is certainly not a tool for mapping boundaries of owned 
areas or
property right boundaries.

> In OpenStreetMap we want to map what is actually there, not the zoning or 
> legal landuse or property boundaries.
>
> What is actually there are property rights, which is what I take as the 
> meaning of "landuse=residential."
>

landuse=residential is an area of land dedicated to, or having predominantly 
residential buildings

such as houses or apartment buildings.

In many cases (properties for solely residential use) it coincides with areas 
owned by people
owning a house.

But it is not always true, if you have a property with forest/farmland - then 
part of your property will be
landuse=residential and part of it will be landuse=farmland (or =forest or 
=industrial or =construction
or something else in other cases).

In some cases, especially with tree-covered areas part of area may be covered 
by two such areas.

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Re: [Talk-us] Heavily-wooded residential polygons

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Jun 2, 2020, 13:11 by g...@lexort.com:

> First, I'm going to assume that polygons for landuse=residential do or
> are intended to align with property boundaries.
>
I think that it is not a good assumption. One may have a property boundary
that is partially landuse=residential and partially landuse=industrial/farmland


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Re: [Talk-us] Stay-Healthy Streets in Seattle do not appear to be Living Streets

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

May 31, 2020, 22:50 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:

> Some mappers have suggested using highway=living_street for streets in 
> Seattle (and perhaps elsewhere) which temporarily have through-traffic 
> restricted for motor vehicles. However, this appears to be incorrect usage of 
> the tag.
>
For what is worth, for me primary meaning of highway=living_street is that 
pedestrian have legal
priority over vehicles and are allowed to use entire street, while motor 
vehicles
are still generally allowed.

So pedestrian may walk in any way and vehicles are obligated to yield to any 
and 
all pedestrians.

>
> According to the announcement by SDOT, the streets in the Stay-Healthy 
> Streets program have a speed limit of 32 kph (20 mph), much higher than the 
> maximum for a Living Street (20 kmh to "walking speed"). It appears that the 
> legal change is that these streets are now motor_vehicle=destination, with 
> through-traffic prohibited, but they are not Living Streets according to the 
> description in this page or at Wikipedia: 
>
Is there any other change? Because "no transit for motor vehicles, 32 km/h 
speed limit"
is well tagged with motor_vehicle=destination and maxspeed, not 
highway=living_street

And how temporary this is? 5 days? 2 weeks? 2 months? Nobody knows?

If just for 5 days I am dubious about tagging this at all.

> The streets in Seattle have street parking along their whole lengths, and 
> there are no design changes compared to other highway=residential streets in 
> the city, except for signage / paint. 
>
In Poland we use that for roads signed with
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strefa_zamieszkania#/media/Plik:Znak_D-40.svg
that has a legal meaning, even if street is designed like any other 
highway=living_street,
and street designed like living street without it would not be marked as 
highway=living_street
without that sign.

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Re: [Talk-us] Heavily-wooded residential polygons

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

May 28, 2020, 23:54 by stevea...@softworkers.com:

> "treed farmland" or "heavily wooded residential" prove slightly problematic 
> to OSM tagging.
>
Map tree-covered area (landuse=forest) and map farmland (landuse=farmland) or
residential (landuse=residential).

Yes, the same area may be tree covered and residential at the same time.

Yes, "tree-covered area" meaning for landuse=forest mismatches strict meanning
of bot landuse and forest.
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Re: [Talk-us] admin_level and COGs, MPOs, SPDs, Home Rule

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

Note that vandalism in OSM and similar project is considered as
something that is not only damaging but also malicious and
intended to be damaging.

In cases where you consider other mapper as mistaken and
wrong, but not malicious - consider using other terms.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism

(it is not unique to OSM, see
for example 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism )


May 12, 2020, 05:28 by mach...@gmail.com:

> I am just going to paste here what I wrote on Slack and I as well consider 
> removal of counties from admin_level=6 as vandalism.
>

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Re: [Talk-us] Relation disappearing from renderer

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us]

May 9, 2020, 00:34 by the.spui.ni...@gmail.com:

>
> So I noticed recently that the boundary for the Black Hills National Forest 
> (> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4069100 
> > ) has started disappearing 
> from the standard view, while the boundary for the Buffalo Gap National 
> Grassland, which has basically identical tags where it matters, is still 
> visible (> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2834554> ). I checked that 
> the BHNF relation wasn’t broken (at least as best as I can tell; I put it in 
> manually a few years ago so it has a lot of parts), so I’m not sure what’s 
> going on.
>
>
Have you tried loading affected relation in JOSM and running validator?

(let me know if you have no idea how to do this and I will try to explain the 
process)
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