Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
On 2017년 03월 18일 00:29, Paul Norman wrote: All vworld redactions are complete. A big thank you. This was a lot of work. ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
On 3/8/2017 11:44 AM, Paul Norman wrote: On 2/26/2017 5:10 PM, Paul Norman wrote: On 2/25/2017 2:47 AM, Paul Norman wrote: On 2/23/2017 12:00 PM, Simon Poole wrote: while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. Unfortunately, this is correct. It looks like it'll be 133 users and 2257 changesets. I'm planning to leave messages in changeset discussions on their most recent changesets. Just a quick update: I have left the message and translation by 최규성 on the changeset discussions and begun the redactions. I estimate it will take over two weeks to redact everything. Redacting the changesets is now 50% done. All vworld redactions are complete. ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
I support Paul's action and appreciate the effort. By his explanation, now I understand why the revert status looks currently half-done. Through the local community activities among Korean mappers, we'll make the awareness of regarding such edits as vandalism. It may take time though... Kyu-sung Choi 2017-03-09 21:00 GMT+09:00 : > Send Talk-ko mailing list submissions to > talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > talk-ko-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > talk-ko-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-ko digest..." > > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: Use of questionable imagery in Korea (Paul Norman) > > > -- 전달된 메시지 -- > From: Paul Norman > To: talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:44:19 -0800 > Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea > > On 2/26/2017 5:10 PM, Paul Norman wrote: > > On 2/25/2017 2:47 AM, Paul Norman wrote: > > On 2/23/2017 12:00 PM, Simon Poole wrote: > > while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of > this specific source we will want to redact the edits (which removes them > from history too) so likely it doesn't make sense to revert them manually. > As the changesets in question are easy to identify this should not be a > larger problem. > > > Unfortunately, this is correct. It looks like it'll be 133 users and 2257 > changesets. I'm planning to leave messages in changeset discussions on > their most recent changesets. > > > Just a quick update: I have left the message and translation by 최규성 on the > changeset discussions and begun the redactions. I estimate it will take > over two weeks to redact everything. > > > Redacting the changesets is now 50% done. > > ___ > Talk-ko mailing list > Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > > ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
On 2/26/2017 5:10 PM, Paul Norman wrote: On 2/25/2017 2:47 AM, Paul Norman wrote: On 2/23/2017 12:00 PM, Simon Poole wrote: while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. Unfortunately, this is correct. It looks like it'll be 133 users and 2257 changesets. I'm planning to leave messages in changeset discussions on their most recent changesets. Just a quick update: I have left the message and translation by 최규성 on the changeset discussions and begun the redactions. I estimate it will take over two weeks to redact everything. Redacting the changesets is now 50% done. ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
Oppps, Please forgot it. I sent a message into wrong thread. 2017-03-05 18:13 GMT+09:00 느림보 : > FYI, > > 공공 용어의 영어 번역 및 표기 지침 (English translation and marking instructions for > public terms) was published by 문화체육관광부 (Ministry of Culture, Sports and > Tourism). > > Reference: http://www.law.go.kr/LSW/admRulLsInfoP.do?admRulSeq= > 210035680 > > 문화재명칭 영문표기 기준 규칙 (English marking instruction of culture properties) was > published by 문화재청 (Culture Heritage Administration). > > Reference: http://www.law.go.kr/admRulLsInfoP.do?admRulSeq=210005900 > > > > I updated instructions into Google Drive because they were saved as HWP > files. (A file-type for a commercial word processor), but I replaced then > into web pages because I found alternates > > 2017-03-01 16:13 GMT+09:00 Changwoo Ryu : > >> "한국어 (English)" form should be corrected. I thought about some >> automatic mass editing if possible. >> >> >> 2017-03-01 0:18 GMT+09:00 느림보 : >> > I’m new comer to OSM community. I joined the community after I noticed >> my >> > village was not displayed on Pokémon GO. I tried to join several years >> ago, >> > but I hesitated because I couldn’t find good guidance for editing. I >> didn’t >> > want to follow non-official source of guidance like blog posts, and >> gave up >> > soon. >> > >> > At this present, I don’t understand guidance for Korean region clearly. >> I’m >> > just writing down my understanding and my rules on my profile page >> believing >> > someone will correct my mistake if she/he would see it. >> > >> > I think some complexity come from name tags. There are many name tags >> for >> > one Korean POI -- name, name:ko, name:en, name:ko_hanja, name:ko_rm. As >> Max >> > pointed out, some name tag has English and Korean such as "name=새마을11교 >> (Sae >> > Village 11 Gyo)". I understood the usage of “한국어 (English)” came from >> > technical reason and the rule was changed “한국어” on Oct. 2014 (Source: >> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention.) >> > >> > However, many POIs are remained with “한국어 (English)” without written >> > guidance (deleted and/or revised). In this reason, the first thing I >> did was >> > searching history of naming rules. I don’t know why the community left >> “한국어 >> > (English)” style until now, but believe such old-styles are fixed >> > immediately and automatically. I could write a bot if the community >> allows. >> > >> > I have doubt on name:ko_rm and name:ko_hanja. Many ko_rm field was >> > transliterated mechanically from its name without concern exceptions >> defined >> > in Revised Romanization of Korean. Then how about hand over >> Romanization of >> > Korean to renderer if need? By the way, is useful for foreigners? Is >> there a >> > renderer displaying ko_rm? As a Korean, I don’t know advantage of >> managing >> > ko_rm field manually. Related this field, I saw deleting line on ko_rm >> and >> > suggestion of ko_Latn in >> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization page, but it >> isn’t >> > harmonized with other wiki pages. >> > >> > As well as, I suggest to modify ‘name:en’ to cover Revised Romanize >> > non-composite place name. Many POIs’ name:en tags have Romanize Korean >> only, >> > but it is not written as guidance. It may be arguable because strictly >> > Romanized Korean is not English. However such exception will help >> foreigners >> > rather than omitting or writing in tag:ko_rm tag. >> > >> > p.s. I used 한국어 in this discussion to represent Korean written in >> Hangeul. >> > >> > >> > 2017-02-24 23:37 GMT+09:00 Max : >> >> >> >> Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the >> >> vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the >> tools how >> >> to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I can >> speak >> >> for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard about it >> here >> >> on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a good idea. >> >> >> >> However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience >> to >> >> learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't happen >> >> again. Or at least raise the awareness. >> >> >> >> I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation >> for >> >> those from outside: >> >> >> >> 1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few >> >> contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an >> >> import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's >> impossible >> >> to know which village has which name without local knowledge. >> Junctions are >> >> imported as lone points, often with steets missing. Bridges too. >> >> The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets >> ((and >> >> double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae >> Village 11 >> >> Gyo)"(sic) >> >> >> >> 2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country. >> >> https://www.openst
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
FYI, 공공 용어의 영어 번역 및 표기 지침 (English translation and marking instructions for public terms) was published by 문화체육관광부 (Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism). Reference: http://www.law.go.kr/LSW/admRulLsInfoP.do?admRulSeq=210035680 문화재명칭 영문표기 기준 규칙 (English marking instruction of culture properties) was published by 문화재청 (Culture Heritage Administration). Reference: http://www.law.go.kr/admRulLsInfoP.do?admRulSeq=210005900 I updated instructions into Google Drive because they were saved as HWP files. (A file-type for a commercial word processor), but I replaced then into web pages because I found alternates 2017-03-01 16:13 GMT+09:00 Changwoo Ryu : > "한국어 (English)" form should be corrected. I thought about some > automatic mass editing if possible. > > > 2017-03-01 0:18 GMT+09:00 느림보 : > > I’m new comer to OSM community. I joined the community after I noticed my > > village was not displayed on Pokémon GO. I tried to join several years > ago, > > but I hesitated because I couldn’t find good guidance for editing. I > didn’t > > want to follow non-official source of guidance like blog posts, and gave > up > > soon. > > > > At this present, I don’t understand guidance for Korean region clearly. > I’m > > just writing down my understanding and my rules on my profile page > believing > > someone will correct my mistake if she/he would see it. > > > > I think some complexity come from name tags. There are many name tags for > > one Korean POI -- name, name:ko, name:en, name:ko_hanja, name:ko_rm. As > Max > > pointed out, some name tag has English and Korean such as "name=새마을11교 > (Sae > > Village 11 Gyo)". I understood the usage of “한국어 (English)” came from > > technical reason and the rule was changed “한국어” on Oct. 2014 (Source: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention.) > > > > However, many POIs are remained with “한국어 (English)” without written > > guidance (deleted and/or revised). In this reason, the first thing I did > was > > searching history of naming rules. I don’t know why the community left > “한국어 > > (English)” style until now, but believe such old-styles are fixed > > immediately and automatically. I could write a bot if the community > allows. > > > > I have doubt on name:ko_rm and name:ko_hanja. Many ko_rm field was > > transliterated mechanically from its name without concern exceptions > defined > > in Revised Romanization of Korean. Then how about hand over Romanization > of > > Korean to renderer if need? By the way, is useful for foreigners? Is > there a > > renderer displaying ko_rm? As a Korean, I don’t know advantage of > managing > > ko_rm field manually. Related this field, I saw deleting line on ko_rm > and > > suggestion of ko_Latn in > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization page, but it isn’t > > harmonized with other wiki pages. > > > > As well as, I suggest to modify ‘name:en’ to cover Revised Romanize > > non-composite place name. Many POIs’ name:en tags have Romanize Korean > only, > > but it is not written as guidance. It may be arguable because strictly > > Romanized Korean is not English. However such exception will help > foreigners > > rather than omitting or writing in tag:ko_rm tag. > > > > p.s. I used 한국어 in this discussion to represent Korean written in > Hangeul. > > > > > > 2017-02-24 23:37 GMT+09:00 Max : > >> > >> Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the > >> vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the > tools how > >> to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I can > speak > >> for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard about it > here > >> on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a good idea. > >> > >> However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience > to > >> learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't happen > >> again. Or at least raise the awareness. > >> > >> I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation for > >> those from outside: > >> > >> 1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few > >> contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an > >> import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's > impossible > >> to know which village has which name without local knowledge. Junctions > are > >> imported as lone points, often with steets missing. Bridges too. > >> The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets ((and > >> double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae > Village 11 > >> Gyo)"(sic) > >> > >> 2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country. > >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=16/37.1364/128.2107 > >> Mapbox Satellite often only in B/W, cloudy covered or low-res > >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=13/38.0416/128.2093 > >> > >> 3. Commercial Map providers like Naver and Daum on the other ha
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
"한국어 (English)" form should be corrected. I thought about some automatic mass editing if possible. 2017-03-01 0:18 GMT+09:00 느림보 : > I’m new comer to OSM community. I joined the community after I noticed my > village was not displayed on Pokémon GO. I tried to join several years ago, > but I hesitated because I couldn’t find good guidance for editing. I didn’t > want to follow non-official source of guidance like blog posts, and gave up > soon. > > At this present, I don’t understand guidance for Korean region clearly. I’m > just writing down my understanding and my rules on my profile page believing > someone will correct my mistake if she/he would see it. > > I think some complexity come from name tags. There are many name tags for > one Korean POI -- name, name:ko, name:en, name:ko_hanja, name:ko_rm. As Max > pointed out, some name tag has English and Korean such as "name=새마을11교 (Sae > Village 11 Gyo)". I understood the usage of “한국어 (English)” came from > technical reason and the rule was changed “한국어” on Oct. 2014 (Source: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention.) > > However, many POIs are remained with “한국어 (English)” without written > guidance (deleted and/or revised). In this reason, the first thing I did was > searching history of naming rules. I don’t know why the community left “한국어 > (English)” style until now, but believe such old-styles are fixed > immediately and automatically. I could write a bot if the community allows. > > I have doubt on name:ko_rm and name:ko_hanja. Many ko_rm field was > transliterated mechanically from its name without concern exceptions defined > in Revised Romanization of Korean. Then how about hand over Romanization of > Korean to renderer if need? By the way, is useful for foreigners? Is there a > renderer displaying ko_rm? As a Korean, I don’t know advantage of managing > ko_rm field manually. Related this field, I saw deleting line on ko_rm and > suggestion of ko_Latn in > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization page, but it isn’t > harmonized with other wiki pages. > > As well as, I suggest to modify ‘name:en’ to cover Revised Romanize > non-composite place name. Many POIs’ name:en tags have Romanize Korean only, > but it is not written as guidance. It may be arguable because strictly > Romanized Korean is not English. However such exception will help foreigners > rather than omitting or writing in tag:ko_rm tag. > > p.s. I used 한국어 in this discussion to represent Korean written in Hangeul. > > > 2017-02-24 23:37 GMT+09:00 Max : >> >> Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the >> vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the tools how >> to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I can speak >> for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard about it here >> on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a good idea. >> >> However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience to >> learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't happen >> again. Or at least raise the awareness. >> >> I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation for >> those from outside: >> >> 1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few >> contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an >> import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's impossible >> to know which village has which name without local knowledge. Junctions are >> imported as lone points, often with steets missing. Bridges too. >> The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets ((and >> double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae Village 11 >> Gyo)"(sic) >> >> 2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country. >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=16/37.1364/128.2107 >> Mapbox Satellite often only in B/W, cloudy covered or low-res >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=13/38.0416/128.2093 >> >> 3. Commercial Map providers like Naver and Daum on the other hand are >> extremely detailed, up to date including even streetview from bicycle tracks >> and such. >> >> 4. The OSM community is very loose to say the least. I don't think anyone >> knows someone else IRL. There is the mailinglist with some months of 0 >> emails. It consists largely of expats and most posts are in English. >> >> --- >> >> In this situation, now we have suddenly new users contributing a lot of >> detail http://osmcha.mapbox.com/46332326/ >> But they are not reacting on changeset comments or direct messages, maybe >> because of a language barrier. >> >> Here my thoughts: >> 1. Is it somehow possible to not scare those away, now that their >> contributions will be reverted? Is there a way to say: "Thank you for your >> contribution, unfortunately we had to delete you edits because of legal >> problems from derived maps from unlicensed satellite ima
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
(I didn’t write new topic even there was big difference with topic title because Max raised naming issue in this thread. Is it better to start new thread?) By the way, official Romanized form of 경복궁 is Gyeongbokgung ( https://www.korean.go.kr/front/page/pageView.do?page_id=P000150&mn_id=99 ) and official English name is Gyeongbokgung Palace. There are instructions related English translation; 공공 용어의 영어 번역 및 표기 지침 (English translation and marking instructions of public terms, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-H3vA9-nLFkQWNLYjJsN00tRG8/view?usp=sharing) and 문화재명칭 영문표기 기준 규칙 (English marking instruction of culture properties, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-H3vA9-nLFkai1VZUEyRnNXVTA/view?usp=sharing) . I uploaded them into Google Drive because they were written in HWP and hardly see it without a commercial software. My concern is not that case, because there exist differences between translated form and Romanized form. Then, how to treat name of places like 서울, 인천, 부산, ….? I saw Seoul, Incheon, and Busan at name:en tags. However they are truly English? Aren’t just Romanized forms? If they are not English, then is it OK to delete name:en tag? Where does criteria exists dividing them? I don’t have idea and it look like I won’t have. That was reason that I suggested to write down Romanized form of non-composite place name into name:en. It will reduce complexity of finding proper tag name as well as helps non-Korean speaking people because many renderers call-backed into name:en rather than name:ko_rm or name:ko_latn. They can get readable characters without special care of Korean for renderers (apologize for missing describe on non-composite place name. I used it to describe names like 서울, 인천, 부산, …) 2017-03-01 14:22 GMT+09:00 Hanbyul Jo : > (This discussion seems to be off from the original topic of the thread, > but ...!) > > I do agree that ko-Latin data need general improvement (also guide for > Korean region editing), but feel not sure about consolidating ko-Latin into > ko-en. > > I am thinking about names being used as landmarks like Han River (Which > would be Hangang in ko-Latin) and Gyeongbokgung Palace ( which would be > Kyoungbokgung in ko-Latin). It is usually valuable to know how locals > pronounce/call the pois like these, and is also helpful what they actually > are. (Is it a river? a palace?) I don't have specific use case in my > hands, but do think ko-en and ko-Latin both have their own functions. > > It would be ideal to have both, but some names ,especially address ,are > likely to have same name as Latin and as English, so users wouldn't feel > very motivated (or sure) to type two different tags with a same name. In > this case, renderer can fall back to the other one if there is no matching > one. (likely fall back to ko-en when there is no ko_Latin) > > > > 2017-02-28 10:18 GMT-05:00 느림보 : > >> I’m new comer to OSM community. I joined the community after I noticed my >> village was not displayed on Pokémon GO. I tried to join several years ago, >> but I hesitated because I couldn’t find good guidance for editing. I didn’t >> want to follow non-official source of guidance like blog posts, and gave up >> soon. >> >> At this present, I don’t understand guidance for Korean region clearly. >> I’m just writing down my understanding and my rules on my profile page >> believing someone will correct my mistake if she/he would see it. >> >> I think some complexity come from name tags. There are many name tags for >> one Korean POI -- name, name:ko, name:en, name:ko_hanja, name:ko_rm. As Max >> pointed out, some name tag has English and Korean such as "name=새마을11교 (Sae >> Village 11 Gyo)". I understood the usage of “한국어 (English)” came from >> technical reason and the rule was changed “한국어” on Oct. 2014 (Source: >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention.) >> >> However, many POIs are remained with “한국어 (English)” without written >> guidance (deleted and/or revised). In this reason, the first thing I did >> was searching history of naming rules. I don’t know why the community left >> “한국어 (English)” style until now, but believe such old-styles are fixed >> immediately and automatically. I could write a bot if the community allows. >> >> I have doubt on name:ko_rm and name:ko_hanja. Many ko_rm field was >> transliterated mechanically from its name without concern exceptions >> defined in Revised Romanization of Korean. Then how about hand over >> Romanization of Korean to renderer if need? By the way, is useful for >> foreigners? Is there a renderer displaying ko_rm? As a Korean, I don’t know >> advantage of managing ko_rm field manually. Related this field, I saw >> deleting line on ko_rm and suggestion of ko_Latn in >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization page, but it isn’t >> harmonized with other wiki pages. >> >> As well as, I suggest to modify ‘name:en’ to cover Revised Romanize >> non-composite place name. Many POIs’ name:en tags have Rom
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
(This discussion seems to be off from the original topic of the thread, but ...!) I do agree that ko-Latin data need general improvement (also guide for Korean region editing), but feel not sure about consolidating ko-Latin into ko-en. I am thinking about names being used as landmarks like Han River (Which would be Hangang in ko-Latin) and Gyeongbokgung Palace ( which would be Kyoungbokgung in ko-Latin). It is usually valuable to know how locals pronounce/call the pois like these, and is also helpful what they actually are. (Is it a river? a palace?) I don't have specific use case in my hands, but do think ko-en and ko-Latin both have their own functions. It would be ideal to have both, but some names ,especially address ,are likely to have same name as Latin and as English, so users wouldn't feel very motivated (or sure) to type two different tags with a same name. In this case, renderer can fall back to the other one if there is no matching one. (likely fall back to ko-en when there is no ko_Latin) 2017-02-28 10:18 GMT-05:00 느림보 : > I’m new comer to OSM community. I joined the community after I noticed my > village was not displayed on Pokémon GO. I tried to join several years ago, > but I hesitated because I couldn’t find good guidance for editing. I didn’t > want to follow non-official source of guidance like blog posts, and gave up > soon. > > At this present, I don’t understand guidance for Korean region clearly. > I’m just writing down my understanding and my rules on my profile page > believing someone will correct my mistake if she/he would see it. > > I think some complexity come from name tags. There are many name tags for > one Korean POI -- name, name:ko, name:en, name:ko_hanja, name:ko_rm. As Max > pointed out, some name tag has English and Korean such as "name=새마을11교 (Sae > Village 11 Gyo)". I understood the usage of “한국어 (English)” came from > technical reason and the rule was changed “한국어” on Oct. 2014 (Source: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention.) > > However, many POIs are remained with “한국어 (English)” without written > guidance (deleted and/or revised). In this reason, the first thing I did > was searching history of naming rules. I don’t know why the community left > “한국어 (English)” style until now, but believe such old-styles are fixed > immediately and automatically. I could write a bot if the community allows. > > I have doubt on name:ko_rm and name:ko_hanja. Many ko_rm field was > transliterated mechanically from its name without concern exceptions > defined in Revised Romanization of Korean. Then how about hand over > Romanization of Korean to renderer if need? By the way, is useful for > foreigners? Is there a renderer displaying ko_rm? As a Korean, I don’t know > advantage of managing ko_rm field manually. Related this field, I saw > deleting line on ko_rm and suggestion of ko_Latn in > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization page, but it isn’t > harmonized with other wiki pages. > > As well as, I suggest to modify ‘name:en’ to cover Revised Romanize > non-composite place name. Many POIs’ name:en tags have Romanize Korean > only, but it is not written as guidance. It may be arguable because > strictly Romanized Korean is not English. However such exception will help > foreigners rather than omitting or writing in tag:ko_rm tag. > > p.s. I used 한국어 in this discussion to represent Korean written in Hangeul. > > > 2017-02-24 23:37 GMT+09:00 Max : > >> Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the >> vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the tools >> how to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I can >> speak for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard about it >> here on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a good idea. >> >> However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience to >> learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't happen >> again. Or at least raise the awareness. >> >> I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation for >> those from outside: >> >> 1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few >> contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an >> import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's >> impossible to know which village has which name without local knowledge. >> Junctions are imported as lone points, often with steets missing. Bridges >> too. >> The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets ((and >> double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae Village >> 11 Gyo)"(sic) >> >> 2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country. >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=16/37.1364/128.2107 >> Mapbox Satellite often only in B/W, cloudy covered or low-res >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=13/38.0416/128.2093 >> >> 3. Commerc
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
I’m new comer to OSM community. I joined the community after I noticed my village was not displayed on Pokémon GO. I tried to join several years ago, but I hesitated because I couldn’t find good guidance for editing. I didn’t want to follow non-official source of guidance like blog posts, and gave up soon. At this present, I don’t understand guidance for Korean region clearly. I’m just writing down my understanding and my rules on my profile page believing someone will correct my mistake if she/he would see it. I think some complexity come from name tags. There are many name tags for one Korean POI -- name, name:ko, name:en, name:ko_hanja, name:ko_rm. As Max pointed out, some name tag has English and Korean such as "name=새마을11교 (Sae Village 11 Gyo)". I understood the usage of “한국어 (English)” came from technical reason and the rule was changed “한국어” on Oct. 2014 (Source: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention.) However, many POIs are remained with “한국어 (English)” without written guidance (deleted and/or revised). In this reason, the first thing I did was searching history of naming rules. I don’t know why the community left “한국어 (English)” style until now, but believe such old-styles are fixed immediately and automatically. I could write a bot if the community allows. I have doubt on name:ko_rm and name:ko_hanja. Many ko_rm field was transliterated mechanically from its name without concern exceptions defined in Revised Romanization of Korean. Then how about hand over Romanization of Korean to renderer if need? By the way, is useful for foreigners? Is there a renderer displaying ko_rm? As a Korean, I don’t know advantage of managing ko_rm field manually. Related this field, I saw deleting line on ko_rm and suggestion of ko_Latn in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization page, but it isn’t harmonized with other wiki pages. As well as, I suggest to modify ‘name:en’ to cover Revised Romanize non-composite place name. Many POIs’ name:en tags have Romanize Korean only, but it is not written as guidance. It may be arguable because strictly Romanized Korean is not English. However such exception will help foreigners rather than omitting or writing in tag:ko_rm tag. p.s. I used 한국어 in this discussion to represent Korean written in Hangeul. 2017-02-24 23:37 GMT+09:00 Max : > Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the > vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the tools > how to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I can > speak for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard about it > here on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a good idea. > > However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience to > learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't happen > again. Or at least raise the awareness. > > I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation for > those from outside: > > 1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few > contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an > import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's > impossible to know which village has which name without local knowledge. > Junctions are imported as lone points, often with steets missing. Bridges > too. > The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets ((and > double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae Village > 11 Gyo)"(sic) > > 2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country. > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=16/37.1364/128.2107 > Mapbox Satellite often only in B/W, cloudy covered or low-res > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=13/38.0416/128.2093 > > 3. Commercial Map providers like Naver and Daum on the other hand are > extremely detailed, up to date including even streetview from bicycle > tracks and such. > > 4. The OSM community is very loose to say the least. I don't think anyone > knows someone else IRL. There is the mailinglist with some months of 0 > emails. It consists largely of expats and most posts are in English. > > --- > > In this situation, now we have suddenly new users contributing a lot of > detail http://osmcha.mapbox.com/46332326/ > But they are not reacting on changeset comments or direct messages, maybe > because of a language barrier. > > Here my thoughts: > 1. Is it somehow possible to not scare those away, now that their > contributions will be reverted? Is there a way to say: "Thank you for your > contribution, unfortunately we had to delete you edits because of legal > problems from derived maps from unlicensed satellite images. But we want > you to stay in our community"? > > 2. How to address the teenagers and Pokemon Go users with a lot of time > and turn their obsession into something that is for the common good. > (honestly that is what OSM is for me personally: Procrastin
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
On 2/25/2017 2:47 AM, Paul Norman wrote: On 2/23/2017 12:00 PM, Simon Poole wrote: while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. Unfortunately, this is correct. It looks like it'll be 133 users and 2257 changesets. I'm planning to leave messages in changeset discussions on their most recent changesets. Just a quick update: I have left the message and translation by 최규성 on the changeset discussions and begun the redactions. I estimate it will take over two weeks to redact everything. ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
To Whom It May Concern, This is an immediate response upon Paul Norman's request. The following is the translation to local language, Korean. *[Original]* Hello, In OpenStreetMap you can't copy from copyrighted maps without permission. This includes vworld, which you did here. Continuing to copy like this could lead to a permanent block. Unfortunately I have to remove this copied data. Paul Norman For the OpenStreetMap Data Working Group *[Translation]* 안녕하세요. 오픈스트리트맵(OpenStreetMap)에서는 저작권이 있는 지도를 여러분이 허락없이 복사하여 사용할 수는 없습니다. 이 해당 범위에는 여러분이 사용한 Vworld도 포함됩니다. 이와 같은 복사작업을 지속적으로 하게 된다면, 접속이 영구적으로 차단하게 될수도 있습니다. 안타깝지만, 저는 복사된 데이터는 삭제할 수 밖에 없다는 것을 알려 드립니다. 오픈스트리트맵 데이터 워킹 그룹을 대신하여 폴 노먼 (Paul Norman) 드림 *// End of Translation* Additionally, I notice that there are several other emails concerning this issue from Simon, Max and Yongmin... As I mentioned in the previous [Talk-ko] correspondence on Feb 22, I sent out public notices of NOT to use Vworld imagery as basemap source through social network services and my professional networks. Other than this, I don't know how to mitigate this situation. In Max's email, he suspected such blogs as - http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=8527l&logNo=220919020518 The author of this blog added a warning that digitizing Vworld to OSM may violate government regulation which prohibits survey result-derived data not to leave the country. And, he removed the Vworld tile map service (TMS) URL from the blog. As for, http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=8527l&logNo=220922543377 The author also mentions the warning, but he still keeps the TMS URL reminding Vworld imagery should not to be traced but to be used for backdrop comparison-purpose only. If anyone has an idea of direct actions to take, please advise... Best regards, Kyu-sung Choi, EZMapping (M. +82-10-5414-4374) 2017-02-25 21:00 GMT+09:00 : > Send Talk-ko mailing list submissions to > talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > talk-ko-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > talk-ko-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-ko digest..." > > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: Use of questionable imagery in Korea (Simon Poole) >2. Re: Use of questionable imagery in Korea (Max) >3. Re: Questionable imagery (Max) >4. Another questionable source (Yongmin H.) >5. Re: Use of questionable imagery in Korea (Paul Norman) > > > -- 전달된 메시지 ------ > From: Simon Poole > To: talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > Cc: > Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 13:08:02 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea > Just to be clear: a report to the DWG needs neither meetings, roles, > responsibilities or a common language (well it is likely that a report > in English will be easier to understand, but that is about it). > > I realize that there might be a cultural hurdle, but any OSM contributor > can and should, if other avenues have not worked (naturally we all > prefer if things can be fixed locally and need not be escalated), report > use of sources that we do not have permission to use. > > Simon > > > Am 24.02.2017 um 12:53 schrieb Max: > > Paul Norman also has complained that nobody has contacted the DWG. > > https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1464# > issuecomment-282268051 > > I guess this is because there is no organizational structure in the > > Korean OSM community (yet). No IRL meetings, no roles, no > > responsiblities, maybe not even a common language. As everyone can see > > discussions on talk-ko happen to be mainly in English, so most mombers > > are "expats" me included, and I am even not any more in Korea. > > my 2ct.. > > > > > > On 2017년 02월 23일 21:00, Simon Poole wrote: > >> Just a couple of notes on the use of the VWorld imagery: > >> > >> * when you experience use of questionable sources in a larger way, > >> please inform the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) and > >> take action without too much delay. These problems tend to get > >> larger, not smaller with time. > >> * please point out the use of problematic sources via changeset > >> comments to the mappers in question and point out that they are > >> doing nobody a favour. > >> * while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy > >> nature of this specific source
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
On 2/23/2017 12:00 PM, Simon Poole wrote: while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. Unfortunately, this is correct. It looks like it'll be 133 users and 2257 changesets. I'm planning to leave messages in changeset discussions on their most recent changesets. Could someone translate this to Korean for me? Hello, In OpenStreetMap you can't copy from copyrighted maps without permission. This includes vworld, which you did here. Continuing to copy like this could lead to a permanent block. Unfortunately I have to remove this copied data. Paul Norman For the OpenStreetMap Data Working Group ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the tools how to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I can speak for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard about it here on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a good idea. However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience to learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't happen again. Or at least raise the awareness. I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation for those from outside: 1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's impossible to know which village has which name without local knowledge. Junctions are imported as lone points, often with steets missing. Bridges too. The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets ((and double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae Village 11 Gyo)"(sic) 2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=16/37.1364/128.2107 Mapbox Satellite often only in B/W, cloudy covered or low-res https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=13/38.0416/128.2093 3. Commercial Map providers like Naver and Daum on the other hand are extremely detailed, up to date including even streetview from bicycle tracks and such. 4. The OSM community is very loose to say the least. I don't think anyone knows someone else IRL. There is the mailinglist with some months of 0 emails. It consists largely of expats and most posts are in English. --- In this situation, now we have suddenly new users contributing a lot of detail http://osmcha.mapbox.com/46332326/ But they are not reacting on changeset comments or direct messages, maybe because of a language barrier. Here my thoughts: 1. Is it somehow possible to not scare those away, now that their contributions will be reverted? Is there a way to say: "Thank you for your contribution, unfortunately we had to delete you edits because of legal problems from derived maps from unlicensed satellite images. But we want you to stay in our community"? 2. How to address the teenagers and Pokemon Go users with a lot of time and turn their obsession into something that is for the common good. (honestly that is what OSM is for me personally: Procrastination, but with the added bonus of doing something for mankind, compare this to playing candy crush.) 3. Should we embrace those kids better? Maybe having a booth at a games convention where pokemon users go? 4. Should OSM Korea make an effort to become some sort of organization? Or would that lead to more problems even? Around Daegu I noticed that a lot of army bases are mapped, even with their names, which are completely censored on any other service. South Korea government and authorities might not find this funny. This is a very young democracy with the army and secret service having a lot of power. I think i remember a story that Revi has made some experiences here when he was editing wikipedia. my 2 1/2 ct. m. On 2017년 02월 24일 13:08, Simon Poole wrote: Just to be clear: a report to the DWG needs neither meetings, roles, responsibilities or a common language (well it is likely that a report in English will be easier to understand, but that is about it). I realize that there might be a cultural hurdle, but any OSM contributor can and should, if other avenues have not worked (naturally we all prefer if things can be fixed locally and need not be escalated), report use of sources that we do not have permission to use. Simon Am 24.02.2017 um 12:53 schrieb Max: Paul Norman also has complained that nobody has contacted the DWG. https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1464#issuecomment-282268051 I guess this is because there is no organizational structure in the Korean OSM community (yet). No IRL meetings, no roles, no responsiblities, maybe not even a common language. As everyone can see discussions on talk-ko happen to be mainly in English, so most mombers are "expats" me included, and I am even not any more in Korea. my 2ct.. On 2017년 02월 23일 21:00, Simon Poole wrote: Just a couple of notes on the use of the VWorld imagery: * when you experience use of questionable sources in a larger way, please inform the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) and take action without too much delay. These problems tend to get larger, not smaller with time. * please point out the use of problematic sources via changeset comments to the mappers in question and point out that they are doing nobody a favour. * while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of this specif
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
Just to be clear: a report to the DWG needs neither meetings, roles, responsibilities or a common language (well it is likely that a report in English will be easier to understand, but that is about it). I realize that there might be a cultural hurdle, but any OSM contributor can and should, if other avenues have not worked (naturally we all prefer if things can be fixed locally and need not be escalated), report use of sources that we do not have permission to use. Simon Am 24.02.2017 um 12:53 schrieb Max: > Paul Norman also has complained that nobody has contacted the DWG. > https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1464#issuecomment-282268051 > I guess this is because there is no organizational structure in the > Korean OSM community (yet). No IRL meetings, no roles, no > responsiblities, maybe not even a common language. As everyone can see > discussions on talk-ko happen to be mainly in English, so most mombers > are "expats" me included, and I am even not any more in Korea. > my 2ct.. > > > On 2017년 02월 23일 21:00, Simon Poole wrote: >> Just a couple of notes on the use of the VWorld imagery: >> >> * when you experience use of questionable sources in a larger way, >> please inform the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) and >> take action without too much delay. These problems tend to get >> larger, not smaller with time. >> * please point out the use of problematic sources via changeset >> comments to the mappers in question and point out that they are >> doing nobody a favour. >> * while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy >> nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits >> (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make >> sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are >> easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. >> >> Simon >> > > ___ > Talk-ko mailing list > Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
Re: [Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
Paul Norman also has complained that nobody has contacted the DWG. https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1464#issuecomment-282268051 I guess this is because there is no organizational structure in the Korean OSM community (yet). No IRL meetings, no roles, no responsiblities, maybe not even a common language. As everyone can see discussions on talk-ko happen to be mainly in English, so most mombers are "expats" me included, and I am even not any more in Korea. my 2ct.. On 2017년 02월 23일 21:00, Simon Poole wrote: Just a couple of notes on the use of the VWorld imagery: * when you experience use of questionable sources in a larger way, please inform the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) and take action without too much delay. These problems tend to get larger, not smaller with time. * please point out the use of problematic sources via changeset comments to the mappers in question and point out that they are doing nobody a favour. * while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. Simon ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
[Talk-ko] Use of questionable imagery in Korea
Just a couple of notes on the use of the VWorld imagery: * when you experience use of questionable sources in a larger way, please inform the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) and take action without too much delay. These problems tend to get larger, not smaller with time. * please point out the use of problematic sources via changeset comments to the mappers in question and point out that they are doing nobody a favour. * while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-ko mailing list Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
