Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Feature Proposal - RFC - Directional Prefix Suffix Indication
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 01:40 -0400, David ``Smith'' wrote: Maybe we should use signed_name=* or name:signed=* to store exactly what's on the sign, preserving abbreviation and prefixes where present? I found N. Temple, No Temple, and North Temple on city street signs all within a few blocks. Which one goes in the tag? - Alan ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Over-digitized imports?
At 2010-08-19 20:24, Alan Mintz wrote: I'm mapping in this area: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.08242lon=-118.639zoom=17 Along the north side of the tertiary road (whose name is not rendered, but is Saddle Peak Road) is a state park polygon (Topanga State Park) imported from CASIL. In this small segment, the road is approximated with less than 70 nodes, while the park polygon segment alongside uses over 1200. I've noticed similar beauty in other data from this source and others (like the Bakersfield data mentioned recently on the list). Should imports make an effort to un-smooth such data to some extent, for the benefit of editing and rendering performance, storage, etc? As a test case, I used JOSM's Simplify Way on the ways that make up Topanga State Park. After playing around a bit, in advanced preferences, I set simplify-way.max-error to 0.2, which still modeled curves to maybe single-digit meter errors, yet removed 73% of the nodes (from 9103 to 2466). The ways are: 38458997 38459009 38459010 38459013 45753168 45753173 45753175 I'm not embarking on a mission to simplify all ways - just taking the (short time) to do this when I'm mapping an area anyway and see it could be of benefit. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Over-digitized imports?
Computer storage and processing time are relatively cheap and only getting cheaper at an exponential rate. OSM volunteer time is very limited. Given those facts I wouldn't worry about unsmoothing except in particularly egregious cases. I just don't see the benefit in decreased storage and processing costs as being worth anywhere near the cost in man hours it would take to do the unsmoothing work. Cheers, Greg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
Also, has there been any progress since the last import with regards to handling county borders? The current data is an absolute nightmare in that regard. Luckily here in Kansas there really isn't too much demand for routing along all the tiny county roads that straddle the border but still, from a perfect world perspective it would be great to get that cleaned up. County borders will be difficult to do programmatically due to alignment, and differences in how county borders handled the roads. A regional mapping enthusiast stitched up all the county borders in my state. I stitched the borders of several other counties where I knew the road layouts. It takes a bit of analysis to get started, but it goes much faster after finding out the convention for a certain area. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Aug 23, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Antony Pegg anttheli...@gmail.commailto:anttheli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Everyone, First time mailing, probably overdue, but I've been reading for a while. Got a question I'm hoping will spark some discussion: What would you like to see done (or NOT see done) with TIGER 2010 as regards OSM when it is released? I don't know whether this can be done differently from the 2007. The 2010 data may be coded the same way, which would not permit it. In the 2007 data as imported, many streets appeared as ways running several blocks. The address range information that was uploaded was for the whole way. When it has become necessary to split the ways (to add speed limits, bike paths, use them in relations, add medians for dual carriageways, etc.), the address information could not be reliably split without field checking (and in some areas it is surprisingly hard to find street addresses in the field). In areas with street grids, it is possible to make reasonable guesses, particularly if you know the area and the streets are designated using numbers (1st Ave, etc.) But in sprawly areas, the old pattern of starting a new hundred every block has often been abandoned. So, for example, a Hawthorn Ave. might have a segment in TIGER that spans 8 blocks, with an address range of 1500-2100 rather than the more traditional 1500-2300. Anyway If the 2010 has block-face-level address ranges, it would be good to upload the streets as block edges rather than long ways spanning several blocks, to make it easier to work with the address ranges. (so the above example of Hawthorn St would be uploaded as 8 ways, each with its own address range) And then it would be good to see if we can use the 2010 to add the address ranges to what has already been edited from the 2007 upload. If we want OSM to support routing, we're going to need addresses. A group of Canadian mappers has just completed uploading address ranges for virtually all of Canada (discussed on the talk-ca list). Edward L. Hillsman ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 7:32 AM, Hillsman, Edward hills...@cutr.usf.eduwrote: Anyway If the 2010 has block-face-level address ranges, it would be good to upload the streets as block edges rather than long ways spanning several blocks, to make it easier to work with the address ranges. (so the above example of Hawthorn St would be uploaded as 8 ways, each with its own address range) And then it would be good to see if we can use the 2010 to add the address ranges to what has already been edited from the 2007 upload. If we want OSM to support routing, we’re going to need addresses. A group of Canadian mappers has just completed uploading address ranges for virtually all of Canada (discussed on the talk-ca list). Address ranges in OSM don't live on the road ways themselves, so it won't help to break up the ways into block-segments. Last I checked the address range system used ways that run parallel to the road and an optional relation to connect the two. The wiki seems to be down otherwise I would link you to the page where I got that idea. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Antony Pegg anttheli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Everyone, First time mailing, probably overdue, but I've been reading for a while. Got a question I'm hoping will spark some discussion: What would you like to see done (or NOT see done) with TIGER 2010 as regards OSM when it is released? I'd like to not see TIGER 2010 applied on top of OSM either replacing what's there or (even worse) uploaded on top. :) I'd not like to see this import take less than four months (yes, I said it, and I'm serious). Here's the why: First, we need to really have an understanding of what the US looks like compared to tiger. A lot of us talk about this question, but it's so different depending on so many factors, the fact remains we don't really know. So we need an understanding of the status of data that was imported from TIGER into OSM. Second, we need to see if there's a good way to do the comparisons between untouched OSM TIGER data and TIGER 2010 data. Thirdly, we need to decide if we want an automated or manual process to bring us forward. I think there are benefits of both. If I were the king of TIGER, I'd say this is the right way to go forward, slowly, in a small team of people who will carefully examine this huge, huge project, making sure we learn our lessons from the past. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
Message: 5 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:05:40 -0400 From: Antony Pegg anttheli...@gmail.com To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010? Message-ID: aanlktim7ev=zvk=oudxje1ehadhc1af7bsagfue28...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Everyone, First time mailing, probably overdue, but I've been reading for a while. Got a question I'm hoping will spark some discussion: What would you like to see done (or NOT see done) with TIGER 2010 as regards OSM when it is released? Merging it into areas that have been edited would be an interesting problem. One thing that might be nice is to get names added to roads that have been traced from imagery. Again, not easy to do. I'm very interested in the why behind any suggestions, and would love to hear what everyone has to say Thanks, Ant -Dion ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Antony Pegg anttheli...@gmail.com wrote: What would you like to see done (or NOT see done) with TIGER 2010 as regards OSM when it is released? Nothing on a grand scale. A TIGER import into a pretty much blank map is a great thing. A TIGER import into the current OSM, isn't going to work. On a smaller scale, I don't know. Pretty much all the TIGER data I've ever seen is surpassed in quality by local county/state data. So if you're going to import county by county, why bother with TIGER? On the other hand, TIGER 2010 might be great for the CommonMap project. (http://commonmap.info/) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Over-digitized imports?
In looking at some of those ways I'd say your simplification is completely warranted. The curves still look very smooth after you've removed 73% of the nodes. I agree with others that storage is cheap and saving space in the DB may not be that important. More nodes make for smoother, more detailed ways but after a certain density is reached more nodes offer diminishing returns. Also when nodes are very dense on a way it becomes hard to select said way with out zooming very far in.Clearly there's no need to systematically remove excess nodes on already imported data, but if simplifying a way makes your editing easier and doesn't reduce the detail/smoothness (clearly this is a judgement call) I say go for it. Zeke On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:14 AM, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.netalan_mintz%2b...@earthlink.net wrote: At 2010-08-19 20:24, Alan Mintz wrote: I'm mapping in this area: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.08242lon=-118.639zoom=17 Along the north side of the tertiary road (whose name is not rendered, but is Saddle Peak Road) is a state park polygon (Topanga State Park) imported from CASIL. In this small segment, the road is approximated with less than 70 nodes, while the park polygon segment alongside uses over 1200. I've noticed similar beauty in other data from this source and others (like the Bakersfield data mentioned recently on the list). Should imports make an effort to un-smooth such data to some extent, for the benefit of editing and rendering performance, storage, etc? As a test case, I used JOSM's Simplify Way on the ways that make up Topanga State Park. After playing around a bit, in advanced preferences, I set simplify-way.max-error to 0.2, which still modeled curves to maybe single-digit meter errors, yet removed 73% of the nodes (from 9103 to 2466). The ways are: 38458997 38459009 38459010 38459013 45753168 45753173 45753175 I'm not embarking on a mission to simplify all ways - just taking the (short time) to do this when I'm mapping an area anyway and see it could be of benefit. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On a smaller scale, I don't know. Pretty much all the TIGER data I've ever seen is surpassed in quality by local county/state data. So if you're going to import county by county, why bother with TIGER? Not all states / counties release their GIS data under an OSM-compatible license. I would love to have just the 2010 Tiger Geo-diff, which would include all the new subdivisions. Just adding them manually would be much faster than trying to survey them one at a time. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote: On a smaller scale, I don't know. Pretty much all the TIGER data I've ever seen is surpassed in quality by local county/state data. So if you're going to import county by county, why bother with TIGER? Not all states / counties release their GIS data under an OSM-compatible license. I would love to have just the 2010 Tiger Geo-diff, which would include all the new subdivisions. Just adding them manually would be much faster than trying to survey them one at a time. What are you envisioning when you say geo-diff? I'm interested in geodiff tool too, but haven't been able to get anyone to come up with good ways of visualizing the difference data. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote: On a smaller scale, I don't know. Pretty much all the TIGER data I've ever seen is surpassed in quality by local county/state data. So if you're going to import county by county, why bother with TIGER? Not all states / counties release their GIS data under an OSM-compatible license. Well, that's why I said I don't know. Maybe there is a county in the US where TIGER is the best we've got, but I don't know of any. I would love to have just the 2010 Tiger Geo-diff, which would include all the new subdivisions. Just adding them manually would be much faster than trying to survey them one at a time. Not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that a mapper would be presented with a new street, which doesn't exist in OSM, overlayed on top of an aerial, and could hit yes, import, no, don't import, or mark for further research, yeah, that'd be nice. But then, the nice thing would be the software, not TIGER. I'd much rather use that software on the shapefiles provided by my county. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] sotm.us 2010 video uploads begin
This is taking more processing power and wallclock time than I'd expected, but I'm beginning the editing/encoding/uploading of the 2010 SotM.US videos, to: http://vimeo.com/channels/128913 The small test video gives an idea of the technical challenges faced :) Clearly there are some things we can do better next time to improve the physical space for video recording. The collective size of all the videos may exceed my 5GB weekly Vimeo Plus quota, so expect to wait up to two weeks for all ten videos to appear. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] sotm.us 2010 video uploads begin
Yay Dave - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
What are you envisioning when you say geo-diff? I'm interested in geodiff tool too, but haven't been able to get anyone to come up with good ways of visualizing the difference data. I did a SQL-based diff of TIGER 2008 - TIGER 2009. This only looked for changes in named ways; adds and deletes. Given separate OSM data sets of 1.)New ways - load into JOSM as a separate layer. New ways that I accept and validate can just be copied to the OSM data layer and stitched in. 2.) Deleted ways - load into JOSM as a separate layer. I can validate and delete the ways from the OSM data layer. 3.) The final dimension to define a full geo-diff is finding ways that have had nodes added, moved, or deleted. Once again, load into JOSM, validate and apply to the OSM data.It would be necessary to ensure that existing edits are preserved - in most cases existing edits would be preferred and may already contain the same fix as the updated TIGER. A geo-diff is less useful in cases where an entire county has been refreshed from the county GIS data from more accurate data because it would basically return the entire TIGER 2010 dataset. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
Well, that's why I said I don't know. Maybe there is a county in the US where TIGER is the best we've got, but I don't know of any. Start with mine, and another county in another state where I frequently travel to - for a GIS DVD with a strict non-reproduction license. I've already asked, and they mean this to exclude an OSM type of use. If you mean that a mapper would be presented with a new street, which doesn't exist in OSM, overlayed on top of an aerial, and could hit yes, import, no, don't import, or mark for further research, yeah, that'd be nice. But then, the nice thing would be the software, not TIGER. I'd much rather use that software on the shapefiles provided by my county. The value of TIGER in this case would be that you can restrict the suggested import set to just the changes from the original TIGER, for cases where the entire region was not changed in TIGER. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
I'm curious what they did with the addressing. The addressing is derived from the door to door GPSing the census bureau did for several months. As far as I know, they consider the detailed addressing survey in 2009 to be subject to the Census privacy laws. The public addressing in the TIGER 2010 will be only to within the nearest block. There may be some corrections, but the overall precision will remain the same as previous versions. This was a hot topic at US SOTM. It is my understanding that it will take a change to the law for the Census Bureau to reclassify the detailed addresses as not subject to the privacy laws. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett blord-casti...@stlouisco.com wrote: TIGER 2010 is a different beast from past TIGER products. Each county was required to respond to the Census bureau with their addressing and centerline data to build it. So, it is a year or more out of date, but also it is derived mostly from existing local sources. Required under what law? Do they have to release it into the public domain? In any case, year out-of-date county data is no better than up-to-date county data, if you live in a state with decent public records laws. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett blord-casti...@stlouisco.com wrote: TIGER 2010 is a different beast from past TIGER products. Each county was required to respond to the Census bureau with their addressing and centerline data to build it. So, it is a year or more out of date, but also it is derived mostly from existing local sources. Required under what law? Do they have to release it into the public domain? Title 13 of US code says that the census must release its data for everyone to use. They've interpreted this to mean public domain as with other federally-funded projects. Yes but my question was what law (if any) requires the counties to release their centerline data, and what requires the counties to release such data into the public domain. Does this mean that the same data which the counties are releasing for for a GIS DVD with a strict non-reproduction license is being released by the Census bureau for free into the public domain? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett blord-casti...@stlouisco.com wrote: TIGER 2010 is a different beast from past TIGER products. Each county was required to respond to the Census bureau with their addressing and centerline data to build it. So, it is a year or more out of date, but also it is derived mostly from existing local sources. Required under what law? Do they have to release it into the public domain? Title 13 of US code says that the census must release its data for everyone to use. They've interpreted this to mean public domain as with other federally-funded projects. Yes but my question was what law (if any) requires the counties to release their centerline data, and what requires the counties to release such data into the public domain. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode13/usc_sec_13_0006000-.html The Secretary, whenever he considers it advisable, may call upon any other department, agency, or establishment of the Federal Government, or of the government of the District of Columbia, for information pertinent to the work provided for in this title. The Secretary may acquire, by purchase or otherwise, from States, counties, cities, or other units of government, or their instrumentalities, or from private persons and agencies, such copies of records, reports, and other material as may be required for the efficient and economical conduct of the censuses and surveys provided for in this title. Interesting. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
I'm pretty sure that personal information isn't released, at least not for a very long time. This comes up in genealogical contexts where past censuses are very valuable in tracing your ancestry. I forget the exact number but its many decades, perhaps as many as 75-100. On Aug 24, 2010 6:12 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Lord-Castillo, Brett blord-casti...@stlouisco.com wrote: TIGER 2010 is a different beast from past TIGER products. Each county was required to respond to the Census bureau with their addressing and centerline data to build it. So, it is a year or more out of date, but also it is derived mostly from existing local sources. Required under what law? Do they have to release it into the public domain? Title 13 of US code says that the census must release its data for everyone to use. They've interpreted this to mean public domain as with other federally-funded projects. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
At 2010-08-24 10:59, Mike N. wrote: This was a hot topic at US SOTM. It is my understanding that it will take a change to the law for the Census Bureau to reclassify the detailed addresses as not subject to the privacy laws. There are also conflicts with state law. CA, for example, has a prohibition against publishing the address of an elected official, which influences what local county/city GIS systems allow in display and search of addresses because of the availability of name/APN relations that could then be linked back to addresses. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] What would you want done with TIGER 2010?
Jumping in at a random point here... At 2010-08-24 08:48, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Antony Pegg anttheli...@gmail.com wrote: What would you like to see done (or NOT see done) with TIGER 2010 as regards OSM when it is released? Nothing on a grand scale. A TIGER import into a pretty much blank map is a great thing. A TIGER import into the current OSM, isn't going to work. +1. However, I suspect there may be completely untouched areas that could be wiped and re-imported from 2010, or at least areas where only the interstate or park guys have worked. I do think it's better to let local mappers do this work. I've often come across new developments that would qualify, where existing rural TIGER roads have all been dozed and the whole area redeveloped. How about a separate database that contains the 2010 data? Add a selector to the JOSM download dialog to tell it which database to download from. You could then download the area of interest from both databases into separate layers and cut/paste connect as needed. This would be better than the county-level files proposed earlier, which would be far too big to be useful in my area (southern Cal). On a smaller scale, I don't know. Pretty much all the TIGER data I've ever seen is surpassed in quality by local county/state data. So if you're going to import county by county, why bother with TIGER? I'd rather be able to easily fix smaller areas that I'm surveying manually than wait for somewhat to tackle my counties of interest. FWIW, TIGER 2009 was vastly superior to 2006/7 in terms of positioning - very accurate in most places I looked. If I had a decent solution for using it, it probably would have saved me a lot of the time I spend manually repositioning from sat imagery. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
