Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I don't see a problem with access=private as this could be handy for micromapping a property. access=public should probably be access=yes. The tagging proposal to date imagined only the shared dump stations of the type that would (in years past) have appeared on AAA maps. If it's to be used for backyard or per-site hookups, the proposal needs adjustment. --- Mapping a hookup in someone's backyard offers* the same pitfalls as mapping their home toilet and recycling bin.* The next level of private is guests only, which I called destination. *The cases seem to be:* per-site hookup, available only to registered guests at the particular site shared dump station, available only to guests of the destination shared dump station, available for drive up shared dump station, free *Tagged as:* Way/node or As a tagged property of a mapped place (e.g. campground, store, fuel station), without a specific position. As a tagged property of a numbered camp slot (e.g. sites 1-22 offer per-site hookups). A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station. Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are even mapped at all. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Please consider participating in the wiki voting for: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station These sites have various names including dump station, dump point, caravan dump station, sanitary station, Elsan disposal point (UK), pumpout, and chemical dump point (CDP). Taking a look at it now. That photo makes my toes curl...seriously get some disposable gloves on, and turn them inside out as you take them off... what do you think you're going to be touching on your way to the sink? access= suggestion should use standard access tags; I don't see a problem with access=private as this could be handy for micromapping a property. access=public should probably be access=yes. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station. Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are even mapped at all. Let's not forget that tagging isn't the renderer. If a renderer can't dim or hide access=private on such a POI when it's not desirable to display a private sanidump, it's the renderer, not the tagging, that's broken. Let's not forget that humans are mappers. The shared sanidump at the local caravan site might well get tagged access=private. Or maybe access=private will be used for the per site hookups. *The cases seem to be:* private backyard dump stations. per-site hookup, available only to registered residents (at a long term residential trailer park or dock). per-site hookup, available only to registered guests at a leisure destination shared dump station, available only to guests of the destination shared dump station, available for drive up/boat up use. shared dump station, free. *Tagged on:* Way/node As a tagged property of a mapped place (e.g. campground, store, fuel station), without a specific position. As a tagged property of a numbered slot (e.g. sites 1-22 offer per-site hookups). Each of those cases needs clear tags if we hope mappers to use them consistently. Your suggestions? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station. Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are even mapped at all. Let's not forget that tagging isn't the renderer. If a renderer can't dim or hide access=private on such a POI when it's not desirable to display a private sanidump, it's the renderer, not the tagging, that's broken. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:04 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: As a tagged property of a mapped place (e.g. campground, store, fuel station), without a specific position. Probably not as this is almost certainly too vague. There are already hundreds of those, mostly in New Zealand, that seem to work fine. When looking at a list of campgrounds, it's helpful to know which ones have a sanitary dump station, even if those campgrounds are only mapped as nodes. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:04 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: As a tagged property of a mapped place (e.g. campground, store, fuel station), without a specific position. Probably not as this is almost certainly too vague. There are already hundreds of those, mostly in New Zealand, that seem to work fine. When looking at a list of campgrounds, it's helpful to know which ones have a sanitary dump station, even if those campgrounds are only mapped as nodes. I meant geographically too vague, as we're talking about navigating something in roughly the same dimensions, weight and steering dynamics as a PSV or a HGV in many cases. It's way faster, safer and easier to plan it so you can reach it going forward than it is having to back up for it, after all. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash. Can we use that image to promote mapping best practices? :-) Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet Method: 1) Create an overlay that displays the hamlets as ugly, rash-like spots. It could even be a rash that allows checkouts a la tasking manager. 2) Encourage mappers to do outreach in each spot. - Mapper in Oregon sees that there is a BadHamlet in Massachusetts, adjacent to their old hometown / alma mater / vacation spot. Mapper reaches out to their old classmates / colleagues / neighbours to find one or more new mappers in / near that hamlet. 3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops. Benefits: We get new local, mappers, in areas that aren't getting as much attention as they might. Mappers have a fun reason to reach out to folks they might not have contacted recently.incorrect hamlet Mappers have the opportunity to do some fun outreach to potential new mappers for the first time. Results: The BadHamlets get fixed. Potential objections: Outreach is too hard, a mechanical edit is way faster. I don't like outreach, I want to use software tools. That will take forever. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
Are there any rendering packages that can be set to render private objects for only a preset list of operator tag values? So, if an association of recreational vehicle owners has waste disposal stations only for registered users, a map generated by that association could show dump stations open to the general public, plus dump stations open to their members, while not showing dump stations open only to members of competing organizations? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On March 17, 2015 3:36:22 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station. Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are even mapped at all. Let's not forget that tagging isn't the renderer. If a renderer can't dim or hide access=private on such a POI when it's not desirable to display a private sanidump, it's the renderer, not the tagging, that's broken. -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even though surrounded by the city. For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police forces. So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs? Or more on par with, say, Metro Oregon http://www.oregonmetro.gov/? Or is both somehow a thing that exists? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even though surrounded by the city. For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police forces. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On March 17, 2015 4:25:51 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban areas? My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in the US: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541 I just posted how we could fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931 I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be retagged as place=neighbourhood -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:07 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Are there any rendering packages that can be set to render private objects for only a preset list of operator tag values? So, if an association of recreational vehicle owners has waste disposal stations only for registered users, a map generated by that association could show dump stations open to the general public, plus dump stations open to their members, while not showing dump stations open only to members of competing organizations? They all can, assuming operator=* is tagged... ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban areas? My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in the US: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541 I just posted how we could fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931 I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be retagged as place=neighbourhood ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:29 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station. Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are even mapped at all. Let's not forget that tagging isn't the renderer. If a renderer can't dim or hide access=private on such a POI when it's not desirable to display a private sanidump, it's the renderer, not the tagging, that's broken. Let's not forget that humans are mappers. The shared sanidump at the local caravan site might well get tagged access=private. That's something that can be fixed. Or maybe access=private will be used for the per site hookups. Right (or customers). *The cases seem to be:* private backyard dump stations. per-site hookup, available only to registered residents (at a long term residential trailer park or dock). per-site hookup, available only to registered guests at a leisure destination access=private for all three. shared dump station, available only to guests of the destination access=customers shared dump station, available for drive up/boat up use. shared dump station, free. access=yes (or just no access tag at all). *Tagged on:* Way/node As a tagged property of a mapped place (e.g. campground, store, fuel station), without a specific position. Probably not as this is almost certainly too vague. As a tagged property of a numbered slot (e.g. sites 1-22 offer per-site hookups). Reasonable, as it's often hard to get high enough imagery to narrow it down further and most people (I'm certainly not and I probably care more than most) aren't likely to break out the theodolite and start doing trig... Each of those cases needs clear tags if we hope mappers to use them consistently. Your suggestions? I think not trying to redefine access=* for just this situation is a start. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Mar 17, 2015, at 8:06 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what these hamlets are. proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map. To them, it just looks like vandalism. (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) Illustrating: it's easy to add junk to OSM, it takes a lot of courage to remove junk. +1 on that. When I come across things I think are wrong but not absolutely sure of it, I just leave it. I suspect that reaction is pretty common. Tod smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what these hamlets are. proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map. To them, it just looks like vandalism. (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) On Mar 17, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet Method: 1) Create an overlay that displays the hamlets as ugly, rash-like spots. It could even be a rash that allows checkouts a la tasking manager. 2) Encourage mappers to do outreach in each spot. - Mapper in Oregon sees that there is a BadHamlet in Massachusetts, adjacent to their old hometown / alma mater / vacation spot. Mapper reaches out to their old classmates / colleagues / neighbours to find one or more new mappers in / near that hamlet. 3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what these hamlets are. proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map. To them, it just looks like vandalism. (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) Illustrating: it's easy to add junk to OSM, it takes a lot of courage to remove junk. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Outreach is awesome. Mechanical edits have their (rather limited, imho) place, but outreach is awesome. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
I will have to look into the details to say for sure. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On March 17, 2015 4:29:34 PM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even though surrounded by the city. For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police forces. So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs? Or more on par with, say, Metro Oregon http://www.oregonmetro.gov/? Or is both somehow a thing that exists? -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash. Can we use that image to promote mapping best practices? :-) Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet Here's what I did with bike repair stations: 1) Import the data * 2) Import a note at the same spot saying this needs local input to finish the mapping. So the map got the basic data right away, plus a start on the processes of engaging a local mapper to finalize things. At the scale I used it for, it worked. Real local mappers found the things on the ground and finished the job. --- With hamlets, the automated edit is a form of improvement. Add local input and you've got a great map. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Are there any rendering packages that can be set to render private objects for only a preset list of operator tag values? So, if an association of recreational vehicle owners has waste disposal stations only for registered users, a map generated by that association could show dump stations open to the general public, plus dump stations open to their members, while not showing dump stations open only to members of competing organizations? Yes, that can be be done in almost any of the OSM rendering sytems. Note the tagging proposal on the table uses network= for regional networks of dump stations. A good RV dump station map would use colors or some such: Free == Green Paid, drive up == Blue Plan ahead (join the network first) == Purple Destination only == Gold Backyard Dump Stations == Black A given recreational vehicle owners association could filter the map and eliminate non-matching network locations. See also: http://www.sanidumps.com/maps/index.php?id=18 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be retagged as place=neighbourhood I generally agree with this, as a first step. Especially if there's a followup challenge of some sort to improve the tagging with local knowledge. Many many of the hamlets in the USA data are for towns that no longer exist. Some of those names linger on as informal neighborhood names, but many don't. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
